CIE’s €100 million Tara Street Station construction

It looks good hope it doesn’t meet the same fate as many other high rise schemes have recently

Sexy. But those pictures are scarred by the ugly loop line bridge. Can anybody tell me it if would be technically feasible to somehow lower the bridge to the level of regular bridges, thus restoring the vista of the Customs House? I mean while they’re building this thing they could easily dig a little underpass for cars and pedestrians to go under the line. Then if they turned the front of the Customs House into a plaza they could gradually lower the line on that side towards the river, again with a little underpass for pedestrians.

@rumpelstiltskin wrote:

Sexy. But those pictures are scarred by the ugly loop line bridge. Can anybody tell me it if would be technically feasible to somehow lower the bridge to the level of regular bridges, thus restoring the vista of the Customs House? I mean while they’re building this thing they could easily dig a little underpass for cars and pedestrians to go under the line. Then if they turned the front of the Customs House into a plaza they could gradually lower the line on that side towards the river, again with a little underpass for pedestrians.

from my back of the envelope calculations i estimate that would cost 59 Billion Euros. Everything is technically feasible but some projects would eh impose a greater burden on the city than others.

Loop line is a bit like Twink – rusty, old and a pain in the arse, but it’s hard to imagine Dublin without it.

Do I see brise soleil on the north east side of the building?

Philistines.

this is PP for a new schedule I’m pretty sure the same building had an earlier PP (the 1st one probably 1620 – spinning it out a bit IE if you ask me)
but the construction would have meant closing Tara St station and this is forbidden by the laws of physics
so they’ve reconfigured the design

must have a good chance of being built seeing that the offices are below the busiest transport node in Eire

@rumpelstiltskin wrote:

Sexy. But those pictures are scarred by the ugly loop line bridge. Can anybody tell me it if would be technically feasible to somehow lower the bridge to the level of regular bridges, thus restoring the vista of the Customs House? I mean while they’re building this thing they could easily dig a little underpass for cars and pedestrians to go under the line. Then if they turned the front of the Customs House into a plaza they could gradually lower the line on that side towards the river, again with a little underpass for pedestrians.

probably be more practical to reconstruct every building in the vicinity into the open plan girders style so it’d all match.

Now that they’ve got the advertising off it, there’s nothing wrong with the old Loop Line that a clever coat of paint and some good lighting wouldn’t cure.

@alonso wrote:

Loop line is a bit like Twink – rusty, old and a pain in the arse, but it’s hard to imagine Dublin without it.

It’s amazingly easy to imagine! Just picture an interrupted vista up and down the quays without a clunky, stodgy bridge dividing the docklands from the rest of the city.

Exactly! It’s a completely revolting disaster, and it should be a priority. There’s something terribly oppressively ugly about Dublin from O’Connell Bridge up to the Customs House. If they just:
1.Properly paved the whole area and cleaned it up (esp O’Connell Bridge)
2.Demolished O’Connell Bridge House and Liberty Hall
3. Did something about the two buildings on either corner of O’Connell St.
4.Got rid of the loopline bridge

it could be quite nice.

@rumpelstiltskin wrote:

it could be quite nice.

Not with Eden Quay being used as a bus station by Dublin Bus and it apparently being along the migration path of the city’s heroin junkies.

4.Got rid of the loopline bridge

it could be quite nice.[/QUOTE]

It’s stated regularly enough on here how unfeasible it is to get rid of it. you would need to put the dart underground from Sydney parade to killester to realise the removal.

@tommyt wrote:

It’s stated regularly enough on here how unfeasible it is to get rid of it. you would need to put the dart underground from Sydney parade to killester to realise the removal.

There was a design about a decade ago (or more) for a very low impact bridge to replace the Loop Line.

I would not bother lowering it…
I would just get rid of it and Tara st station all together
and put it below oconell st bridge or hawkins house/DOL st

can anyone see the billboard the size of totem carman on the structure?

there are two options… it goes to broadstone via granny morning or plugs into metro north or the interconnector…

there seems to be some photoshop somewhere showing no bridge?

what is the big white rim on the pub, a big sign for the station?

@tommyt wrote:

It’s stated regularly enough on here how unfeasible it is to get rid of it. you would need to put the dart underground from Sydney parade to killester to realise the removal.

Considering that it “loops” considerably to get to that point in the river in the first place, is there any reason they couldn’t just move it to the other side of the Customs House? Then, with a good shiny modern design and the iron railings removed, it could represents a sort of gateway to the docklands. It’d be pretty simple, you could just run it as an elevated train down Amiens Street from Connolly, and down Moss Street towards Pearse Station. Imagine something as elegant as that Calatrava bridge right behind the classic vista of the Customs House – I think it would form an iconic image of Dublin.

Council objects to Tara Street office ‘slab’ above station

DUBLIN CITY Council is opposing plans by Iarnród Éireann for a €100 million redevelopment of Tara Street station in Dublin, including the construction of a 15-storey office block on the site. The two State bodies are also at loggerheads over the payment of development contributions and a levy to fund the Metro North in the event of planning permission being granted. An Bord Pleanála yesterday began an oral hearing into Iarnród Éireann’s plans to redevelop the Dart and mainline station, the second-busiest in the country.

…

However, the council, in its observation to the board, has likened the proposed tower to “a large slab form” sitting poorly in the skyline. While not opposed to development on the site, it says the current proposal is not capable of being amended and should be rejected. The proposed development will reach 60.8 metres into the Dublin skyline, slightly higher than Liberty Hall and almost twice the height of the Custom House. Iarnród Éireann told the hearing, chaired by inspector Karla McBride, that the loss of any floors from the office tower would significantly reduce its commercial viability.

A 10-year planning permission is being sought as construction is likely to take longer than the normal five years allowed. The Department of the Environment has also expressed concern about the proposed development and has called for the provision of a nesting platform for peregrine falcons as part of any planning permission. The development envisages the demolition of Tara House and other buildings but Kennedy’s pub, a four-storey protected structure on George’s Quay, will survive.

Iarnród Éireann called on the board not to impose levies on the development to fund Metro North and to reduce the normal development contributions due to Dublin City Council as part of planning permission.

There’s more but it’s a long article so I only quoted parts of it. It’s hard to imagine the thinking behind one state agency applying a development levy to another state agency, especially when they’re both part of the DoT. This is just bureaucratic money shuffling and will probably end up in the courts with the taxpayer funding both sides.

There is one final oddity:

However, Iarnród Éireann does not intend to provide any toilets or bicycle parking in the station because of the “confined” nature of the site. Ms McBride said it wasn’t logical to expect cyclists to park their bikes at other stations if travelling from Tara Street.

Since when has DCC been concerned with architectural quality? The permit derelection of large swathes of the city while permitting the sort of crap that lines the quays.

The hag of heinretta street comes to mind as a perfect example of DCCs concern for architectual quality.

Anyway all these projects are linked…

so some of the DOT information submitted for MN is going to overlap here.
That means in order of 500 or more bicycle spaces if my memory is spot on…
and bikes on trains? have to wait and see…

toilets would also be expected if it was the second busiest station in the state.

We have a station here that is i’m guessing the 30th busy one and it has toilet’s open at peak hour only

http://www.tarastreetstation.ie/#a5

http://www.tarastreetstation.ie/pdf/Volume3/Part%20One%20Visual%20Impacts/View%2016A%20-%20O%27Connell%20Bridge%20(North).pdf

Car lift is interesting wohr? some of those columns look like a pain in the arse…
If you count escalators this station will rank 6 or 7 in a few years…
Is the lift big enough for a bike?

I suppose it was quite ridiculous to expect something that was mildly different from the current scene to be built. FFS.

@aj wrote:

Since when has DCC been concerned with architectural quality? The permit derelection of large swathes of the city while permitting the sort of crap that lines the quays.

The hag of heinretta street comes to mind as a perfect example of DCCs concern for architectual quality.

+1000000!!

Good point. Plus, after years of planning, one arm of government is objecting to what the other is doing. NO joined up thinking. It really says ALOT about why this country is in the state it is!

C

CIE are planning on spending €100m on this office spec development scheme – while acres of office space is empty, and An Bord Snip proposes saving €55m by closing 240km of railways around the country? Fuckwits 😡

And despite the scheme being higher than Liberty Hall, they cannot provide toilets for passengers because of the “confined” nature of the site?? FFS.

Somebody please abolish Irish Rail and CIE – this is clearly a public sector body that has got out of control, and is more interested in wasteful distractions as opposed to its core business. Get rid of them.

Finally just a quick reminder as to what custodians CIE are in the city centre with properties under their, eh, “care” – https://archiseek.com/content/showpost.php?p=73702&postcount=10

Note their employees private cars parked up in their depot, while they continue to dump buses onto Parnell and Mountjoy Squares. You just couldn’t make it up – 9 buses are now regularly parked back-to-back on Parnell Square alone. Also note the disgraceful condition of Broadstone Station.

Save Irish railways + public transport: Abolish CIE now.

This all has a familiar ring to an upside down L shape down the river except the architecture is -1000 points and the impact was peanuts (I got burned there)
Should liberty hall and this be related? It will be be interesting to see how all this plays out and they end up with 6/7 stories like everyone else that does interesting stuff… unless its all part of the plan;)

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0730/1224251671423.html

@hutton wrote:

CIE are planning on spending €100m on this office spec development scheme – while acres of office space is empty, and An Bord Snip proposes saving €55m by closing 240km of railways around the country? Fuckwits 😡

And despite the scheme being higher than Liberty Hall, they cannot provide toilets for passengers because of the “confined” nature of the site?? FFS.

Somebody please abolish Irish Rail and CIE – this is clearly a public sector body that has got out of control, and is more interested in wasteful distractions as opposed to its core business. Get rid of them.

Finally just a quick reminder as to what custodians CIE are in the city centre with properties under their, eh, “care” – https://archiseek.com/content/showpost.php?p=73702&postcount=10

Note their employees private cars parked up in their depot, while they continue to dump buses onto Parnell and Mountjoy Squares. You just couldn’t make it up – 9 buses are now regularly parked back-to-back on Parnell Square alone. Also note the disgraceful condition of Broadstone Station.

Save Irish railways + public transport: Abolish CIE now.

My understnading is that IE will pay nothing for this building.
The developer who builds it will rebuild the 2nd busiest station in the country for free.

the toilets issue might not be unrelated to the large congregation of drug addicts and dealers who infest this area.

all the same I think it’s wonderful that you know so much that you can sort everything out just by having a quick think without any need to check annoying facts.

It’s a very detailed application but there are still some bits.
DCC normally request landscaping drawings with paving/crossing details.
We had 50 bike spaces for a few apartments go figure…
It would be good it the road was level.
+26.03 that hurts slevin

Additional Information – Softworks Specification
Additional Information – Street Furniture Schedule
Additional Information – Streetscape Masterplan
Additional Information – Landscape Images

Really interesting project, really hope this gets the go ahead as it would be an important step in elevating this station into a transport hub

Cannot understand DCC appealing it on grounds that it is a big slab overlooking the Customs house.

And what in the name of Allah is Liberty Hall, Hawkins Hse and that other lego set on top of the Ulster bank. Compared to that unholy trio this is quite elegant.

@marmajam wrote:

Cannot understand DCC appealing it on grounds that it is a big slab overlooking the Customs house.

And what in the name of Allah is Liberty Hall, Hawkins Hse and that other lego set on top of the Ulster bank. Compared to that unholy trio this is quite elegant.

lol i agree how can a strcuture with a glazed exterior be a slab? i think they meant ‘bulky’ :rolleyes:

Well on the right of those pictures you can see a rectilinear portion of the building which could be described as a slab. I still think it looks pretty good though.

@marmajam wrote:

My understnading is that IE will pay nothing for this building.
The developer who builds it will rebuild the 2nd busiest station in the country for free.

the toilets issue might not be unrelated to the large congregation of drug addicts and dealers who infest this area.

all the same I think it’s wonderful that you know so much that you can sort everything out just by having a quick think without any need to check annoying facts.

Okay; show me your developer who’s:

A) Got the €100m to put down on the table now and build this

B) Is going to build this while vast chunks of office space in the city are lying idle

One or or two other “annoying facts” to add for your conundrum –

1) You can’t suggest a developer with a four letter name that begins with “N”, ends with “A” and has “AM” in the middle

2) Also barred regrettably are any out-of-control semi-state bodies whose core businesses are in other areas.

As gunter might say, best of luck with that 🙂

@hutton wrote:

Okay; show me your developer who’s:

A) Got the €100m to put down on the table now and build this

B) Is going to build this while vast chunks of office space in the city are lying idle

🙂

Eh Treasury holdings? Currently developing Montevetro which is bigger then this, about to unveil Aqua Vetro and developing a Hadid designed office block on the Northside.:rolleyes:

@marmajam wrote:

I refer my learned friend to the reply I gave before.

(all the same I think it’s wonderful that you know so much that you can sort everything out just by having a quick think without any need to check annoying facts)

😀

@darkman, quote referred to wrote:

Eh Treasury holdings? Currently developing Montevetro which is bigger then this, about to unveil Aqua Vetro and developing a Hadid designed office block on the Northside.:rolleyes:

Really mamajam? Just a quick glance at the Hadid vs Foster thread throws up this, including I note a-not-so-optimistic comment by your “learned friend”…

@Yixian wrote:

Are any of these projects actually going ahead?

@darkman wrote:

They said a planning application for North Wall Quay would be lodged before the end of the year. Fingers crossed but im not overly hopeful.

@Rory W wrote:

About as much chance as satan’s snowball collection

marmajam, your debate have relied on silly speculative conjecture rather than providing facts. To suggest such as “fact” is irritating, but I’m still happy to watch you fumble with some more rope 🙂

It’s lovely

But makes the pimple that is the Loop line bridge now look like a Cyst.

Those pillars are disgusting and the advertisements agrrrrrrrragh its so ugh.

@marmajam wrote:

Cannot understand DCC appealing it on grounds that it is a big slab overlooking the Customs house.

And what in the name of Allah is Liberty Hall, Hawkins Hse and that other lego set on top of the Ulster bank. Compared to that unholy trio this is quite elegant.

I agree the Tara street development actually brings balance to the Tara street side. All the building’s on that side are over 6 stories. The buildings behind Custom house opposite liberty hall is 10 storys. The Tara street building doesn’t look tall at all.

This is good news

@dave123 wrote:

It’s lovely

The simple curved form (the ”grain of rise” I believe they’re calling it !) facing the Custom House, is perhaps borderline elegant, if of questionable massing and orientation at this location, but the jumble of competing, scaleless, forms on the Tara Street side would make the dismal streetscape here even more forelorn, imo.

If ABP had any inclinations to grant this, they should just give them permission for the curved block, and condition out the rest.

If this means IE end up with a ten storey building and no stairs, . . . . well they’ll learn the next time won’t they 😉

@hutton wrote:

CIE are planning on spending €100m on this office spec development scheme – while acres of office space is empty, and An Bord Snip proposes saving €55m by closing 240km of railways around the country? Fuckwits 😡

Somebody please abolish Irish Rail and CIE – this is clearly a public sector body that has got out of control, and is more interested in wasteful distractions as opposed to its core business. Get rid of then.

Save Irish railways + public transport: Abolish CIE now.

Who’s CIE?

IE will not spend a penny on this building but will get a very necessary upgrade of the 2nd busiest station in the country done for free.

That’s their job. Well done by them.

You’re paranoid.

@marmajam wrote:

Who’s CIE?

IE will not spend a penny on this building but will get a very necessary upgrade of the 2nd busiest station in the country done for free.

That’s their job. Well done by them.

You’re paranoid.

par⋅a⋅noi⋅a
  /ˌpærəˈnɔɪə/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [par-uh-noi-uh]

–noun
1. Psychiatry. a mental disorder characterized by systematized delusions and the projection of personal conflicts, which are ascribed to the supposed hostility of others, sometimes progressing to disturbances of consciousness and aggressive acts believed to be performed in self-defense or as a mission.

Hmmm – that’s an interesting interpretation of paranoia you are projecting on to my development critique of (C)IE’s proposed scheme. Last time I checked, I was not aware of CIE/IE “out to get me” 🙂

Meanwhile back in the real world I am interested in the notion this is “a very necessary upgrade of the 2nd busiest station in the country”; given that no toilets are provided, I find the term “upgrade” novel. Somebody’s taking the piss – or maybe not if CIE get their way.

I also dispute your interpretation that this will be “done for free”; show me the money as it were, as to who is backing them – and please don’t provide any more conjecture masquerading as “fact”.

What is happening here is the public transport company CIE, is attempting to develop what is primarily a speculative office scheme through their subsidiary company, Irish Rail, claiming it to be an “upgrade” of a railway station. I don’t consider a new railway station without toilets to be an upgrade. What I also note is that a cost of €100m has been put on developing the scheme, without declaring who is going to foot the bill – other than suggesting it’ll be done by some mythical developer. Maybe I am being unreasonable, but at a time of unprecedented vacancies of existing office and corporate space, this to my mind is based on fantasy of a bygone age.

Worse than that, CIE are advancing a €100m scheme at a time when An Bord Snip is recommending saving €55m by closing 240km of railway around the country.

@marmajam wrote:

That’s their job. Well done by them.

Developing spec office blocks amidst unprecedented vacancy – rather than defending what should be their core business interests of keeping railways open and providing public transport? Well if you say so, but I would have to differ 🙂

marmajam, you are so gung-ho about this project – to a point of unnecessarily insulting critics – are there any interests that you would like to declare, just for sake of clarity?

I agree with you marmajam. Some people on this site bitch and moan about EVERY SINGLE DEVELOPMENT undertaken in Dublin and elsewhere. It’s soooooooooooo boring. It’s pretty obvious that this building will improve the centre of Dublin generally and clean up a pretty grotty block opposite the Customs House. You’d think people would be happy about it.

@rumpelstiltskin wrote:

I agree with you marmajam. Some people on this site bitch and moan about EVERY SINGLE DEVELOPMENT undertaken in Dublin and elsewhere. It’s soooooooooooo boring. It’s pretty obvious that this building will improve the centre of Dublin generally and clean up a pretty grotty block opposite the Customs House. You’d think people would be happy about it.

Signed.

I’m with Hutton on this one.
At a time when railways are under threat from Bord Snip, I would have thought CIE would be doing their best to promote rail travel.
I thought that was their function.
Silly me.

It is the moaning, unfortunately, that has the city the way it is. The Irish Times set are out against Metro North now because of their beloved Stephens Green. For decades people have moaned and “Georgian” this and that…etc etc. We are not the city we should be because of the small minded mentality. It is very well illustrated on this site. It’s no supprise to me. How many projects have been shot down that would have been good for this city? The same people go on and bitch and moan about Dublin of course:rolleyes:

IÉ are doing their job in a capitalist environment. Improving the city vista while allowing this improvement to enhance the public transport network. I dont see the problem.

darkman, I agree nimbyism is beyond reason here, but for all their complaining they have failed to stop the destruction of many parts of historic Dublin, yet focus their efforts on trying to disrupt the sustainable development of new Dublin even if the impact is minor and even aligns with their goals in the long term. These people are entirely counter-productive.

I don’t see the problem with IE making the most of their property – if the resultant profits can be ploughed back into improving the passenger experience.

@Paul Clerkin wrote:

I don’t see the problem with IE making the most of their property – if the resultant profits can be ploughed back into improving the passenger experience.

Thats a big if.

@dave123 wrote:

Those pillars are disgusting and the advertisements agrrrrrrrragh its so ugh.

Those adverts were removed two years ago. Welcome to the future 🙂

@markpb wrote:

Those adverts were removed two years ago. Welcome to the future 🙂

It’s really a very minor improvement. The whole thing is a black scar of psychological depression on the face of the city. It’s a hammerblow of ugliness on the city centre. Isn’t it possible they could remove the black metal at the sides and make it a little more aerodynamic, elegant and modern looking … this would include getting rid of those orange max headroom signs which make it look like a throwback to the 60s.

@rumpelstiltskin wrote:

this would include getting rid of those orange max headroom signs which make it look like a throwback to the 60s.

And have trucks crashing into it and suspending all train services in the city?

I think the loop line bridge would be a lot better if it was painted white.

as long as you’re willing to clean it every week

remind’s me of the white house and some british tv show…

choose one angle?

or dun lair

you’re half right missarchi. or half wrong if I’m in a bad mood………..

The only possible solution would be to turn it into a feature in it’s own right with some very imaginative probably deconstructed adaptions.

Even if it never came to fruition it’d be worth it for the apoplexy that would ensue.

In fact if the DDDA had any sense they should propose obtuse blasphemous gigantic sculptures left right and centre just to annoy people

They need to be annoyed for their own good.

@markpb wrote:

And have trucks crashing into it and suspending all train services in the city?

That’s the kind of imagination that makes Dublin the most architecturally interesting and beautiful city in Europe!

@markpb wrote:

Those adverts were removed two years ago. Welcome to the future 🙂

Welcome to the present?

Or is their something your not telling us Marty McFly? 😀

I hate the loop line bridge it has got to be the bulkiest bridge in the world for what is. It’s almost like a wall dividing Dublin. If they build a more gleaming silver or white bridge that would compliment the Custom house. I think the biggest eyesore in this area

Is that fucking loopline bridge I hate it. The Guinness legs and harp is so tacky it advertise Ireland to be a drunk drinking nation.

UGH….

@rumpelstiltskin wrote:

It’s really a very minor improvement. The whole thing is a black scar of psychological depression on the face of the city. It’s a hammerblow of ugliness on the city centre. Isn’t it possible they could remove the black metal at the sides and make it a little more aerodynamic, elegant and modern looking … this would include getting rid of those orange max headroom signs which make it look like a throwback to the 60s.

Give it 20 or 30 years and when Victorian becomes as fashionable as Georgian is now, it’ll be the pride of the city – a Victorian wonder admired for it’s engineering ambition and robust execution; we all admire Roman aqueducts, no?

I’m being half facetious but it either stays as it is or it goes completely. The latter isn’t going to happen this half century at least. The only thing that could be worse than it would be a “modern” looking replacement.

Has anybody any pics or info of what was proposed by Kavanagh Mansfield?

https://archiseek.com/content/showpost.php?p=4933&postcount=11

https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=708

http://www.paddi.net/beta/?func=display_structure&structure_id=4215&structure_location_id=6115

@dave123 wrote:

Is that fucking loopline bridge I hate it. The Guinness legs and harp is so tacky it advertise Ireland to be a drunk drinking nation.

UGH….

I guess advertising if left up long enough burns into the brain.

Thanks to the efforts of those usually castigated for their sense of civic pride, as it has been pointed out, the Loop Line bridge no longer looks like this.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Dublin_bei_Nacht.jpg

Stand up and take a bow you victorious campaigners, you know who you are!

heh butty bridge…. very clever denny

@jimg wrote:

Give it 20 or 30 years and when Victorian becomes as fashionable as Georgian is now, it’ll be the pride of the city – a Victorian wonder admired for it’s engineering ambition and robust execution; we all admire Roman aqueducts, no?

I’m being half facetious but it either stays as it is or it goes completely. The latter isn’t going to happen this half century at least. The only thing that could be worse than it would be a “modern” looking replacement.

I disagree. I think the Victorians did a lot of wonderful things, but this is a complete abject failure. It ruins the view of one of the architectural set pieces of Dublin and its bulky blackness lacks any elegance whatsoever. I don’t think we should be so in awe of the past that we have no confidence that our age could improve upon this monstrosity.

@rumpelstiltskin wrote:

I disagree. I think the Victorians did a lot of wonderful things, but this is a complete abject failure. It ruins the view of one of the architectural set pieces of Dublin and its bulky blackness lacks any elegance whatsoever. I don’t think we should be so in awe of the past that we have no confidence that our age could improve upon this monstrosity.

I completely agree. It is an inelegant, clunky eyesore whose only saving grace is the view OF the Custom House as you cross it. This by no means excuses it. Arriving east of the bridge by car or on foot you really see just how criminal obscuring the Custom House is. The photoshopped image above – with Liberty Hall reduced and the loopline removed – looks so much better. Although it does seem to leave out the Lafayette Building (is this its actual title?)

This is a feeling I get so often looking at Dublin ‘vistas’. We have the right raw ingredients BUT WE ALWAYS GET IT WRONG. Well not always, but often.

Rage.

I’d love to see a photoshop with only the bridge gone.

I agree, the Loopline is an insult on one of the most beautiful buildings of it’s kind in the world (customs house). It needs to be replaced by a very thin, streamlined, minimalist bridge that opens up the customs house to O’Connell St and extends the centre of town out to the docklands. Psychologically it has this effect of dividing the city in half.

It’s an insult as it now stands, but anything can be adapted to harmonise with anything else if the will is there (as well as the skill)
anything.
a sculptural perspective needs to be taken on the 2 edifices.

Even if it was replaced by a more streamlined bridge, you’d still have something blocking the Customs House.. unless you brought it down to street level and then back up again (which is silly).

why don’t we raise the Custom House instead…

@alonso wrote:

why don’t we raise the Custom House instead…

Damn straight alonso, these people just can’t look at the bigger picture. We all know the solution to this is to put the Custom House on stilts.

@missarchi wrote:

remind’s me of the white house and some british tv show…

I would accept that if I could be sure that there would be a cluster of buildings 20 storeys plus built down in the docks. I would accept a fully low-rise city centre in return for buildings of truly high scale being built in the docklands.

@Cathal Dunne wrote:

I would accept that if I could be sure that there would be a cluster of buildings 20 storeys plus built down in the docks. I would accept a fully low-rise city centre in return for buildings of truly high scale being built in the docklands.

+1 vote for this, I think a low-rise city centre is really what you want, it makes for a more open atmosphere, easier to find your way around.

@Yixian wrote:

+1 vote for this, I think a low-rise city centre is really what you want, it makes for a more open atmosphere, easier to find your way around.

What………

I can find my way around Manhatten easily. That is really stupid what you just said.
To translate that.
Lets keep the city centre low rise (cus its easier to get around) Lets build high rise (cus its not easy to get around)

Dublin city centre can still be a low rise city with 6/9 story buildings. I would be happy if they maintained this height within the canals. It height has nothing to do with making an atmosphere or getting around. The issue with the city centre it’s has architectural merit and much of the old buildings are protected structures. The city is generally 4/5 story’s. Tall buildings would not suit. That is the reason why, not this “oh its not easy to get around”

Well, in my person opinion I like the ambience of a low-rise city centre, it just feels more accessible. Manhattan is a bad example because of the way it’s streets are divided so uniformly, but old cities like Dublin don’t have that luxury and I value being able to see the tops of the few tall landmarks in the city centre to orient myself.

I don’t live in Dublin so this advantage would disappear the more you get to know it – but I maintain that prefer it the height it is. Dot it with a few high rises sure, or better yet simply large monuments and statues.

Building the high rise either side of the centre of town would look nice, particularly from down the river.

And yeah 6/9 story is fine, I just mean not HK or NY scale in the very centre.

@Cathal Dunne wrote:

I would accept that if I could be sure that there would be a cluster of buildings 20 storeys plus built down in the docks. I would accept a fully low-rise city centre in return for buildings of truly high scale being built in the docklands.

I totally agree with you on this… keep city centre a low rise and classical looking area and build the docks to the sky!

@OisinT wrote:

I totally agree with you on this… keep city centre a low rise and classical looking area and build the docks to the sky!

I thought that was the original concept behind the docks, that it was a blank canvas. The ordinary criteria for building in the City could be relaxed and plot ratios and heights could increase. All the time preserving whats left of the historical core. Many reasonable people agree with this policy.

However, the anti-skyscraper brigade started to object to taller buildings in the docklands because the could be seen in the distance from historic areas!!….and ABP took these spurious arguements seriously! Matters were not helped when a certain DDDA planning officer imposed uniform 6 storey parapet heights in the IFSC. Of course because such a conservative short sighted decision was taken….nobody batted an eyelid!

I think that is where the north wall was supposed to come in… a cluster…

I happen to think the sight of skyscrapers seen in the distance behind classical areas look very nice.

It is a real shame that there was so much resistance to high rises before the recession, and now it appears to be too late. When any old city in Canada has a raft of vast scrapers and Dublin has next to none, it makes the city look inherently less like the economic hub it is becoming.

Someone please reassure me that Dublin will catch up 🙁

There is a plan on DCC’s website for this whole area- Georges Quay Plan- Go to Planning the Framework Development Plans- Its a DRAFT at the minute

@Yixian wrote:

I happen to think the sight of skyscrapers seen in the distance behind classical areas look very nice.

It is a real shame that there was so much resistance to high rises before the recession, and now it appears to be too late. When any old city in Canada has a raft of vast scrapers and Dublin has next to none, it makes the city look inherently less like the economic hub it is becoming.

Someone please reassure me that Dublin will catch up 🙁

there wasn’t resistence to highrise in the right place eg the docks

@lostexpectation wrote:

there wasn’t resistence to highrise in the right place eg the docks

Good point, I guess the recession hit just a little too early.

@lostexpectation wrote:

there wasn’t resistence to highrise in the right place eg the docks

What about the hotel behind the National Convention Centre?

and George’s Quay and Spencer Dock. There was huge resistance to high rise development in the Docks from residents, georgian types and even that slimy runt we used to call taoiseach who described the original Spencer Dock proposal as a “monstrosity”. He may have been right enough on that one but what replaced it is even more offensive…..

Can you check this out please, guidance plans for the whole Tara St/Georges Quay area:

http://www.dublincity.ie/Planning/OtherDevelopmentPlans/FrameworkDevelopmentPlans/Documents/DraftGeorgesQuayPlan.pdf

@AMDM wrote:

Can you check this out please, guidance plans for the whole Tara St/Georges Quay area:

http://www.dublincity.ie/Planning/OtherDevelopmentPlans/FrameworkDevelopmentPlans/Documents/DraftGeorgesQuayPlan.pdf

Other than the Tara St Station high-rise, what has been specifically proposed as part of this redevelopment?

Just from a quick flick through it- 2 mid ranging buildings both sides of the church and school near Moss Street and stepping down to the Liffey and also a wayfinder building at the Screen cinema site with permeable access through the Hawkins House site through to Tara Street Station

hm not bad.. I could see that being a real asset to the area which really needs something done!

@lostexpectation wrote:

there wasn’t resistence to highrise in the right place eg the docks

Waaaay off the mark! Every high-rise proposal for the docks was fought tooth and nail. I note others have mentioned examples that were refused, I will add that the DDDA itself laid down a maximum height of 6 stories for IFSC phase 2!

Also, its not a case of the recession comming too soon to allow for high-rise. We had a boom for the best part of 12 years. Look at all the low-rise dross built in the Docks…..thats because nothing else could get planning. Even permitted examples such as The Watchtower, Alto Vetro and U2 had to undergo torturous planning processes which would not happen in any other country.

Face it, there is a major and organised anti high-rise lobby in Dublin! An Taisce have turned from a heritage organisation into an organisation who oppose every (literally) development, particularly high-rise.

Ask yourself this…..if The Elysian in Cork, or the Clarion and Riverpoint of Limerick had been proposed for Dublin, would they have ever been built?? Of course not! There would have been hundreds of organised objections and dozens of letters of condemnation in the Times. A sympathetic ABP….would then give the thumbs down!

C

but thats not why the weren’t built, it was the developers fault

@Contraband wrote:

-Sorry if this has been posted before-

This scheme has finally gone before An Bord Pleanála today

Fair enough, nothing ground breaking but pleasing to look at nonetheless. Now is the time to build afterall.

that first image looks very like the riverpoint building in Limerick city

It’s a bit more aesthetically pleasing than Riverpoint. It’s not as stumpy. Let’s hope it’s not as drab. Riverpoint is an abject failure on every conceivable front.

http://www.irishconstruction.com/cms_pics/TARAINTERIORX620.JPG

@missarchi wrote:

http://www.irishconstruction.com/cms_pics/TARAINTERIORX620.JPG

I like.

The oval solid would be great if it was made of glass.

Here is an more elegant version on the limerick one I still cannot tell if the fins are glass or mullions

Anyone know what has become of this? I seem to remember ABP didn’t like the height but haven’t heard anything since and Tara St Station simply has to be redeveloped..

Trying to figure out what’s going on with this:

Iarnród Éireann has until November 27th to submit new designs to the board. A spokesman for the company yesterday said it had only just received the letter and was examining it.

However during An Bord Pleanála’s public hearing on the development last July, Iarnród Éireann said the loss of any floors from the office tower would significantly reduce its commercial viability.

I suppose the new high rise policy doesn’t make any change to the heights allowed in Customs House Quay?

Either way it seems like CIE are simply contesting the rejection rather than submitting a new proposal. Perhaps we will have to wait until “February 1st” next year to find out?

There is nothing wrong with this proprosal. Infact the Ulter bank has more of a impact than Tara street high rise by a long shot. This building is sleek and blends into the Custom house quay well.

To be honest the Costum house in is an ugly building.or at least far overly rated.

irish planning never seems to amaze me.

The Customs House is a beautiful building but I don’t see how this detracts from it.

Still, I can’t tell if this proposal is dead in the water yet or not. CIE say they won’t scale it down.

@Yixian wrote:

The Customs House is a beautiful building but I don’t see how this detracts from it.

Still, I can’t tell if this proposal is dead in the water yet or not. CIE say they won’t scale it down.

it doesnt detract from it, that’s the thing.. The high rise is on the other side of the loop line facing Tara street and Matt Talbot bridge.

@dave123 wrote:

There is nothing wrong with this proprosal. Infact the Ulter bank has more of a impact than Tara street high rise by a long shot. This building is sleek and blends into the Custom house quay well.

To be honest the Costum house in is an ugly building.or at least far overly rated.

irish planning never seems to amaze me.

😡 you might elabourate on the issues with gandons ugly overated work??? I am very confused

Tara Street redevelopment gets permission
http://two.archiseek.com/2010/tara-street-redevelopment-gets-permission/

I like it…….anything is an improvement on what is already there.

I can’t tell if that is white stone or render on the side of the building?
Anyway some colour or fake windows would be great…
I find planning bemusing hine:rolleyes:

http://www.ibstock.com/glazed-bricks-colour.asp

@missarchi wrote:

I can’t tell if that is white stone or render on the side of the building?
Anyway some colour or fake windows would be great…
I find planning bemusing hine:rolleyes:

http://www.ibstock.com/glazed-bricks-colour.asp

That’s bizarre just checked out that site an hour ago, some nicer shades here
http://www.ibstock.com/glazed-bricks-colour-select.asp
went on a glazed brick bender
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dreamyshade/galleries/72157622246160801/
http://www.ibstock.com/glazed-bricks-gallery-3.asp

Somehow wouldn’t hold my breath for such craftsmanship, chrome, glass and polished granite is all i’m imagining.

Hmmmm I thought that ABP had rejected this? Was there an appeal? Even with the approval looks like they did their usual trick of knocking a few random floors off. The original was supposed to be about 60m to mirror Liberty hall. So at 49m looks likes a slight trim rather then a ifsc phase 2 crew cut:)

Looking at the render, it looks a bit more squat then I remember. I wonder if they could have retained the extra floors but insisted on setbacks, being staggered gradually away from the Liffey. That might have diminished any overshadowing.

That said, its better then whats there now. The only thing that does worry me, all this investment in Tara St guarantees there will be no chance of removing the Loop-line….which I think, ulike all the crappy office blocks and apartments, is actually the biggest travesty and eyesore in Dublin!

C

Would appear to have 3 floors removed from previous mockups.

ABP asked for this to be shorter and have “less of an impact on the Customs House”, so expect.. very little.

That is the revised design in the images on archiseek.

@Yixian wrote:

ABP asked for this to be shorter and have “less of an impact on the Customs House”, so expect.. very little.

What impact could it have on the Custom House? It’s across the river!

@fergalr wrote:

What impact could it have on the Custom House? It’s across the river!

maybe APB has taken on some hong kong feng shui consultants! By their reckonings SIPTU and the liberty would be screwed.
http://ezinearticles.com/?Feng-Shui-of-the-Bank-of-China-Tower-(Hong-Kong)&id=3686619

Revised scheme looks pretty reasonable compared with the original: this is no dublin central ABP hatchet job.

So this building is definitely going ahead? That’s great if it is. It has been knocked about by ABP but that’s to be expected in a city afraid of anything ambitious. Even this slightly diluted project will be an improvement on the existing buildings and will be a new and welcome addition to the city. It’ll help create a few jobs as well which will be good in these depressed times.

Not at all Cathal; I don’t think it says anywhere that they have a partner signed up to develop this, I doubt it will happen in the near future. This just means they have planning permission.

It’s literally identical, just with 25% chopped off the top. Could be worse, although the height was nice.

CIÉ will now seek a development partner as part of the detailed design phase, allowing for the works to be scheduled. The construction programme is envisaged to take approximately 2 years, and a 10-year planning permission has been granted.

o that could mean several years before start

looks like they started judging by the demolitions on Tara Street this weekend

Really? Hope so. Be great to see movement on something significant.

@darkman wrote:

Really? Hope so. Be great to see movement on something significant.

i’ve heard these demolitions were simply some tidy up work on the site and that the buildings demolished were demolished under the dangerous buildings act, and have nothing got to do with the major/approved development.

I think that is quite likely

It would be a shame if that demolition work was only to adhere to the Dangerous Buildings Act. The Tara Street Development has the potential to add another fine building to our skyline, improve the fabric of the Tara Street area (ie, reduce the prevalence of ‘dead frontage’) and improve the experience of waiting for the train at Tara Street. Having a covered platform will make the wait for a DART more amenable in rainy Dublin,

Even though Dublin has a high commercial property vacancy rate, it still would be possible to proceed with this predominantly office-based development. This is due to the fact that there has been precious little new and thus higher building-quality office development in Dublin in the last three years. Modern companies demand high standards in terms of energy efficiency, ICT facilities and so on. Much of the current vacant office space in Dublin do not meet these standards and would need extensive renovation to do so. Moreover, with the likes of BNY Mellon and the Central Bank looking for large new offices, the Tara Street Tower could be what they’re looking for.

An article in yesterday’s commercial property section of the Irish Times supports my post above. A lot of vacant offices in Dublin are of insufficiently high quality or size to be attractive to companies looking for space. Most of them now demand Grade A or A1-standard offices and many of the buildings currently sporting “To Let” signs simply do not measure up to that standard. Conversely high quality offices like Montevetro and Trinity Central have been snapped up by tenants and purchasers. Given that the Tara Street Tower will probably be Grade A1 and that we have a lot of organisations looking for a large quantity of space (eg, the Central Bank, BNY Mellon, Marketo) then there’s an opportunity here. CIÉ could start work on the site early next year and have it finished by the end of 2014. There’s a good chance the economy will have recovered a bit by then and that there will be tenants ready to move in.

I agree you need to take account of building obscelecence; certain occupiers will spend so much money on a fit out that they need a 15 or 20 year term to depreciate it; at the end of the term they do not want to renew and commit to a refit of a building that would have a configuration designed for 30-40 years prior to their second term expiry date.

To capitalise on a two speed market the trick is to have the site ready to go and a build that can be done completely in 2 years so that office agents can market off plan. Ireland isn’t just open for business its got an army of educated professional graduates and the best real estate incentives in the OECD. How long it takes European politicians to stop kicking Ireland around like a football is the unquantifiable variable……

@PVC King wrote:

To capitalise on a two speed market the trick is to have the site ready to go and a build that can be done completely in 2 years so that office agents can market off plan. Ireland isn’t just open for business its got an army of educated professional graduates and the best real estate incentives in the OECD. How long it takes European politicians to stop kicking Ireland around like a football is the unquantifiable variable……

So you would agree with me that Tara Street Tower should probably be developed in the short to medium-term?

I think that this strategically located business space opportunity should have detailed project management consultancy undertaken to have a phasing plan produced that can be delivered within a two year period; this is something that should be done across a number of live planning consents.

All of these oppportunites should be actively marketed; occupational demand should decide what gets developed and when it gets developed; this is not just a Dublin thing, outside core markets like Shanghai, Sydney and London the days of safe speculative development with no pre let in place prior to ground being broken are firmly suspended. That however does not mean that well located parcels of land need to rot indefinitely; what could produce a higher return on new investment in a high number of locations?

@PVC King wrote:

I think that this strategically located business space opportunity should have detailed project management consultancy undertaken to have a phasing plan produced that can be delivered within a two year period; this is something that should be done across a number of live planning consents.

All of these oppportunites should be actively marketed; occupational demand should decide what gets developed and when it gets developed; this is not just a Dublin thing, outside core markets like Shanghai, Sydney and London the days of safe speculative development with no pre let in place prior to ground being broken are firmly suspended. That however does not mean that well located parcels of land need to rot indefinitely; what could produce a higher return on new investment in a high number of locations?

I take your point that the commercial property market is more cautious and less active than before the global financial crisis but the Tara Street Tower would have significant strengths. It is located in the heart of the city, has excellent transport links, would be built to the highest standards, has large floorplates and has a landmark quality. Moreover if construction began next year, it would be coming to market in 2014/15 when the economy should be a lot stronger domestically and internationally. Therefore there should be demand for such a property at that time and CIÉ would reap a significant profit.

I agree that as scheme it would work very well; from an urban regeneration point of view it would be real progress. The time just isn’t right for construction of offices without a pre-let in place. Dublin if it is organised can through marketing designs and then building on the basis of agreements for lease; stay well ahead of the curve.

The first thing that needs to change is the elimination of large properties from the alteration to the rent review position. How can anyone go to site when they don’t know what their income stream will be after the first five years? A sensible rent limit needs to be set say €25,000 p.a. and let corner shops survive but not create complete paralysis across the wider built environment field.

@PVC King wrote:

I agree that as scheme it would work very well; from an urban regeneration point of view it would be real progress. The time just isn’t right for construction of offices without a pre-let in place. Dublin if it is organised can through marketing designs and then building on the basis of agreements for lease; stay well ahead of the curve.

Well that’s eminently achievable in the Tara Street case. The new Biosciences Development at Trinity (known as Trinity Central for commercial property purposes) pre-let 42,000 of the 60,000 sq ft available to non-Trinity tenants to HMH, the education publisher. I’d say that with the right estate agent they could pre-let at least two-thirds of the building.