Cafe Bars the new architectural challenge
- This topic has 30 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 19 years, 5 months ago by d_d_dallas.
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April 15, 2005 at 11:45 pm #707788AnonymousParticipant
http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0415/alcohol.html
Government to create ‘cafe-bar’ licence
15 April 2005 22:11
The Minister for Justice, Michael McDowell, has announced that the Government intends to create a new ‘cafe-bar licence’.The licence would require qualifying establishments to provide hot food on the premises as well as alcoholic and non-alcoholic drinks during opening hours.
It is one of the proposals to be contained in the Intoxicating Liquor Bill.
The main purpose of the Bill is to streamline licensing laws by repealing all 600 existing provisions and replacing them with one Act.
All retail liquor licences will now go through the District Court, a new nightclub permit will replace the current exemption order and there will be new arrangements for theatre licence provisions.
The new cafe-bar licence will be available for premises smaller than 130 square metres and will cost less than the going rate for pub licences.
A cafe-bar would operate under the same opening hours as pubs.
Mr McDowell said he hoped the development would help encourage a shift away from binge drinking and would counteract the trend towards super pubs.
The bill does not propose any significant changes in opening hours. A public consultation period will now follow until the end of May. ENDS
What an opportunity this presents and does anyone have any ideas on what design styles will feature or what will be the must have details of our new class of social venue?
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April 16, 2005 at 12:08 am #752887DublinLimerickParticipant
I think it is a fabulous idea – the thought of of drinking alcohol for hours in a pub without food is just too unbearable
to contemplate. But it will all depend on the quality of food offered, the ambience and the type of alcohol offered –
I personally like Belgian beers and also some of the superb micro-brewery beers produced in Ireland. -
April 16, 2005 at 12:16 am #752888AnonymousParticipant
@DublinLimerick wrote:
I personally like Belgian beers and also some of the superb micro-brewery beers produced in Ireland.
Ive really taken to Belgian beers since they started giving away free Pints of Stella lately, and the porterhouse has always been great even if it is at the mass-market end of the micro-brewery concept. The thing about the porterhouse chain is that they are still designed like pubs.
I reckon that the prescriptive limit of 130 sq m is going prove a real challenge for designers, given that the building design guidelines will probably be framed in a way that discourages standing areas and features restaurant/cafe style layouts. Now if all pints were the same price as Stella lately I’d say fair enough but at the guts of 5 euro a pint and 12-15 for food you do expect a little more design quality and comfort. I hope that this concept can deliver.
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April 16, 2005 at 12:37 am #752889DublinLimerickParticipant
Yes, I agree Thomand Park. A cafe/bar should NOT have the same design/layout as a pub. and I’m sure this can be
done – it’s certainly very successful in Italy and elsewhere in Europe. Quality food and drink, and value for money would make the concept a success. Incidentally, I’m not against pubs per se, but I do like choice. -
April 16, 2005 at 3:31 am #752890d_d_dallasParticipant
The Clarendon…?
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April 16, 2005 at 2:07 pm #752891PaulCParticipant
Surely this opens up new possibilities for the Bewleys Building on Grafton street????????
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April 16, 2005 at 2:11 pm #752892sw101Participant
i think cafe bar deli is taking over the bewleys on grafton
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April 16, 2005 at 2:13 pm #752893AnonymousParticipant
Unfortunately the regulations are prescriptive to 130 sq m whilst Beweys is 920 sq m at ground level alone, the idea behind the regulations is to discourage super-pubs and ensure that people have some food while drinking.
The decision on the former planet hollywood restuarant was delivered during the week in favour of the super drink barn, it is to prevent this happeneing again that the regulations have been passed. It will ultimately blur the lines between bars and cafes which should be a good thing subject to each case being judged on its merits.
Re The Clarendon I would have no objection to a few more of those appearing a stunning job and a visionary investor to put the money down for such a spec job.
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April 17, 2005 at 5:17 pm #752894d_d_dallasParticipant
Agreed, a fabulous design. But just in terms of the Clarendons operation – it should be a bar… but it’s not. It should be a restaurant… but it’s not. You have people dropping in for a coffee next to a table being served dinner next to someone nursing a pint. A worthy template.
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April 17, 2005 at 8:58 pm #752895AnonymousParticipant
DD I’d think you are totally correct in terms of the type of usage that architects will have design around and I would imagine that this type of layout over a couple of floors will be what will emerge complete with tables in the street for seasonal use.
If there was a must see before doing a cafe bar the Clarendon would be it
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April 18, 2005 at 12:49 pm #752896Mob79Participant
@Thomond Park wrote:
Unfortunately the regulations are prescriptive to 130 sq m whilst Beweys is 920 sq m at ground level alone, the idea behind the regulations is to discourage super-pubs and ensure that people have some food while drinking.
Maybe a few few different ones could be set up in different rooms like the food court thing on liffey street.
That said i’ve never been in bewleys. -
April 18, 2005 at 2:46 pm #752897mansteinParticipant
i think its a great way forward and not only will it promote more socialising but it will enable a variety of food now to be served as immigrants can avail of the new licensing laws. As anyone who has been abroad will know , the selection and variety of cheap food is always possible when immigrants who are less educated and speak less english have the opportunity to open and rent a small place to provide sufficient income to their families.
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April 18, 2005 at 4:37 pm #752898vinnyfitzParticipant
Manstein, I’m not sure if you are trolling or not, but your post sounds rather odd to me. Bear in mind that many immigrants are not “less educated” for a start.
On the broader topic I think McDowell is ill advised to suggest the main outcome of this measure will be less drunkenness. It is clear from ths speedy hostility of the publicans (and their sanctimonious anxiety about alcohol abuse) that their real concern is the impact on prices and profits. Their opposition would normally be enough to cause me to embrace the proposals. Cheaper drink and cheaper soft drinks – yes please.
However, given what Thomond Park said above, and from my limited knowledge of the regs relating to health and safety alnd licensing of kitchens in this country I’m sceptical of how profitable small cafes will be if they have to jump through the existing set of requirements. Most of the Italian cafes McDowell hankers after would surely go bust if they had to conform to the regs applying to Irish hot food venues. I’m sure others have more expertise on this aspect though?
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April 18, 2005 at 4:59 pm #752899Frank TaylorParticipant
I don’t understand -what is the proposed change?
If you have a small cafe you can get a wine and beer licence. So what’s new? Is it that the cafe doesn’t have to serve the alcohol with food? Also, I would have thought that the real hurdles to opening new bars are planning permission and property prices. -
April 18, 2005 at 5:08 pm #752900asdasdParticipant
“Manstein, I’m not sure if you are trolling or not, but your post sounds rather odd to me. Bear in mind that many immigrants are not “less educated” for a start. “
My reading of the post was that he was talking about immigrants who were less educated, and not implying anything in general about the education of migrants, although why this entrepeneurial opportunity does not also apply to less educated Irish people is not determined. Maybe Irish people can’t cook.
“If you have a small cafe you can get a wine and beer licence. So what’s new? Is it that the cafe doesn’t have to serve the alcohol with food? Also, I would have thought that the real hurdles to opening new bars are planning permission and property prices.”
I see nothing new here. There are pubs – or at least there were – which had cafe licences, and gave free sausages out occasionally to meet the terms of the “cafe” part of the licence. Nice sausages too. And real cafes can serve alcohol already.
in fact reading the report again it seems that all they are doing to streamlining legislation and the reporter picked up on this “new” feature which isn’t.
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April 18, 2005 at 6:09 pm #752901Mob79Participant
I don’t those that are causing trouble and fights on the streets will really be interested in these establishments anyway, i don’t think mcdowell has the first idea what the real problems are.
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April 19, 2005 at 1:28 am #752902DublinLimerickParticipant
Mob79, it is about cultural change – something that takes generations to change, but the conditions for cultural change have to be put in place – the rewards are long-term.
Manstein’s comments are ambiguous (yet also aggressive). Perhaps the last thing we need in our country is rhis kind
of agenda.
The hope is that we can achieve a civilised society and surely no-one can dispute that architecture can play a defining role in this process. -
April 19, 2005 at 9:49 am #752903mansteinParticipant
apologies if my comments seemed aggressive. i meant to refer to immigrants who had less qualifications and my choice of “less educated” was badly choosen only . on the record i for one welcome the new multi-cultural ireland having just arrived back after 3 years.
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April 19, 2005 at 11:59 am #752904Rory WParticipant
Please do Belgian style cafe bars – just back from Brussels and the whole experience was fantastic. Imagine being in places you can talk in, get a seat (no standing), get decent waiter service, places that attract families, couples, people reading papers, someone in for a bite to eat, or a coffee, or a beer – the whole experience is a pleasure. You would sit and nurse a drink for up to an hour rather than pour it down your throat (less agro later perhaps) – good call Minister McDowell, good call.
Oh and the beer & food is great and a good beer will only cost about €2,50
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April 19, 2005 at 12:04 pm #752905Mob79Participant
Alcohol with your food or washing food down with lots of liquid isn’t good for digestion though,…….. just thought i’d ruin everything.
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April 22, 2005 at 2:03 am #752906DublinLimerickParticipant
Rory W, I agree – bars should be places for everyone: to drink, to eat something, to interact with other people in a spirit of conviviality and in a good-natured manner; witout aggression or the fear of violence caused by binge drinking.
Planning regulations have a part to play here – for example, the development of superpubs should be carefully controlled. -
April 22, 2005 at 3:53 pm #752907Rory WParticipantDublinLimerick wrote:Rory W, I agree – bars should be places for everyone: to drink, to eat something, to interact with other people in a spirit of conviviality and in a good-natured manner]
I’d go beyond that and ban any new drinking barns altogether
BTW – didn’t see one bomber-jacked thug (sometimes called a ‘bouncer’) at any of the cafe bars in Brussels
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May 30, 2005 at 4:56 pm #752908Jack WhiteParticipant
I thought this was an original idea but
http://www.justice.ie/80256E010039C5AF/vWeb/fl … Report.pdf would indicate otherwise -
May 30, 2005 at 5:15 pm #752909Frank TaylorParticipant
For an example of a small cafe-bar operating within the current licensing laws, try CYO on Camden Street. It seats about 20 and sells wines and bottled beers and even weiss beer on draft along with tapas style food. You can fill the whole place for an evening with a small circle of friends.
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May 31, 2005 at 10:56 am #752910AnonymousParticipant
I totally agree small intimate venues that have a good track record in food should be given the opportunity to diversify into selling a beer or wine or even cocktail with food. I do think that these conversions should still require planning permission to assess whether or not they are suitable given the number of smokers still amongst us.
@RTE Interactive wrote:
Sweden to introduce smoking ban
31 May 2005 09:45
Sweden is to introduce a ban on smoking in all bars and restaurants at midnight tonight.It will join countries including Ireland and Norway which have already introduced the measure.
The ban has been largely welcomed in Sweden where a recent poll showed that 85% were in favour of ending smoking in restaurants and 77% support a ban in bars and clubs.
Two-thirds of smokers questioned for the poll earlier this month said they agreed with the ban.
So we now have a gang of three in a European context, thats Stockholm off the list for potential a City Break 😀
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June 12, 2005 at 8:54 pm #752911AnonymousParticipant
@RTE Interactive wrote:
FG plans Dáil motion over café bar licences
12 June 2005 19:13
Fine Gael is planning to expose possible divisions in the Government later this week by moving a Dáil motion calling for the scrapping of plans to introduce café bar licences.The Private Members’ motion will be debated in the Dáil on Tuesday and Wednesday before it is voted upon.
The Minister for Justice, Michael McDowell, is due to address the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party on the proposals on Tuesday.
40 members of Fianna Fáil are reported to have signed a petition calling for the plan to be dropped.
Fine Gael has called on Government TDs who are unhappy about it to support their motion.
I think it is good that this bill is being brought forward, the only pity is that the research commissioned by the Department of Justice calling for cafe bars has been sitting in Stephens Green for two years now. The petition is just typical of this administration.
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June 13, 2005 at 12:51 pm #752912AnonymousParticipant
@RTE Interactive wrote:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0613/alcohol.html
Tánaiste denies tensions over café-bar plans
13 June 2005 11:45
The Tánaiste has denied there are tensions in the Cabinet over proposals to create cafe bars, and she has rejected suggestions that the Minister for Justice, Michael McDowell, had climbed down over the issue.Ms Harney told reporters the important thing was to have greater competition and liberalisation.
She was asked about comments on Morning Ireland by Senator Tom Morrissey, who said Fianna Fáil had no values.
Ms Harney said this was not her view and that she believed the next election was still two years away.
The question is will cafe bars actually be allowed to become the new architectural challenge?
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June 13, 2005 at 1:58 pm #752913J. SeerskiParticipant
Cafe Bars is a load of nonsense – really it means ‘mini-pubs’ – and we have quite a lot of pubs already thanks very much – there are over 2000 in Dublin at the moment – so if the question is choice and competition, it is here already, however, I doubt you would ever get price competition if already there is none with 2000 bars…
Its populist nonsense that has already been spouted by the PDs – esp in relation to Dublin Airport – and we know the fine mess that has been made of that! Dont forget, FF, the publican party, would never allow the PDs get such a move passed them…
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June 13, 2005 at 2:21 pm #752914AnonymousParticipant
I’m not so sure that this is coming out of the competition agenda I would be more of the opinion that this motivated more by finding solutions to the ‘primetime girl’ drinking culture. It was after all the report from the Liquor Licencing Commission that called for this as opposed to the competition authority.
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June 13, 2005 at 4:00 pm #752915AnonymousParticipant
@RTE Interactive wrote:
Restaurant licences to be deregulated
13 June 2005 15:01
The Minister for Justice has said he has decided to deregulate and liberalise the restaurant business instead of pressing ahead with his proposal to introduce café-bars.On RTÉ’s News at One programme, Michael McDowell said the compromise proposal for making alcohol and food available together in café-bars would have had to overcome so many difficulties, so he had decided to go the more radical route.
The Taoiseach has denied that the scrapping of Mr McDowell’s café-bar proposal was a ‘slap down’ for the PDs.
Bertie Ahern said that in a democracy different viewpoints were considered before a decision was made and that is what had happened in this case.
Asked if this Government would last until 2007, Mr Ahern said he had spent five years in the previous Dáil saying the Government would last and he hoped that he would not have to do the same again.
Harney denies Cabinet fiction
The Tánaiste, Mary Harney, earlier denied there were tensions in the Cabinet over proposals to create café-bars.
She rejected suggestions that Mr McDowell had climbed down over the issue. Ms Harney told reporters the important thing was to have greater competition and liberalisation.
She was asked about comments on RTÉ’s Morning Ireland programme by PD Senator Tom Morrissey, who said Fianna Fáil had no values.
Ms Harney said this was not her view and that she believed the next election was still two years away.
No new architectural challenge so I guess its back to designing over-priced restaurants
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June 13, 2005 at 4:32 pm #752916d_d_dallasParticipant
“Bertie Ahern said that in a democracy different viewpoints were considered before a decision was made and that is what had happened in this case”
so is that the Vintner’s Association’s viewpoint that was considered?
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