British Symbolism on Buildings in Ireland

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    • #708159
      murphaph
      Participant

      Hi all,
      I wonder, could I ask for contributors to list any buildings in the republic that have symbols of british rule in ireland still evident on them.

      I already know of the following in Dublin;
      King’s Inns
      Custom House
      (Royal Victoria) Eye & Ear
      Bank of Ireland (Old Parliament)
      Royal College of Surgeons
      Fusilier’s Arch
      Wellignton Monument

      I’d appreciate any input on this! If we could keep it to clearly british emblems/standards etc. Cheers.

    • #762027
      ctesiphon
      Participant

      Not buildings, I know, but many of our pillar and wall-mounted post boxes bear royal monograms.

      (What’s the word I’m looking for- I know it’s not monogram? Think it begins with a D…)

    • #762028
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      The general post office in Sligo has an ER coat of arms above the main door. There is also a huge stone coat of arms sculpture at the back of the Quad in the University in Galway – I think it was taken down from the top of the court house in Galway. If I think of more, I will post them.

    • #762029
      murphaph
      Participant

      @ctesiphon wrote:

      What’s the word I’m looking for- I know it’s not monogram?

      Insignia perhaps?

    • #762030
      murphaph
      Participant

      @PDLL wrote:

      The general post office in Sligo has an ER coat of arms above the main door. There is also a huge stone coat of arms sculpture at the back of the Quad in the University in Galway – I think it was taken down from the top of the court house in Galway. If I think of more, I will post them.

      Is that ER as in Edvardus Rex VII, like what’s on the post boxes?

    • #762031
      dodger
      Participant

      The Four Courts has a crown/standard or two.

      Then there’s the bandstand in Dun laoire (perhaps not a building) which was reinstated for some bizarre and shameful reason.

    • #762032
      Paul Clerkin
      Keymaster
    • #762033
      notjim
      Participant

      The old quad building in UCG has a big lion and unicorn hidden in the garden behind the building: it was on the building but they took it of and hid it.

    • #762034
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @murphaph wrote:

      Is that ER as in Edvardus Rex VII, like what’s on the post boxes?

      I presume so. The building would probably be from that era.

    • #762035
      SeamusOG
      Participant

      I think Baggot Street Hospital may have something like what you’re looking for – in the name written in big letters across the doorway. (I can’t remember what the full title is).

      And the Royal College of Physicians (Kildare Street), Royal Dublin Society and possibly even Royal Dublin Golf Club may have something for you.

    • #762036
      Rusty Cogs
      Participant

      Post boxes you’ll see VR (Victoria Regina) pre 1901, ERVII (Edward VII Rex) 1901 – 1910 & GR VI (George VI Rex) 1910 to free state.

    • #762037
      Rusty Cogs
      Participant

      I’d take all ‘Royal’ societies as a british colonial hangover. The RDS, RCSI, Royal Automobile Society, Royal Heraldic Society etc.

      There’s also a couple of nice RIC heads over the door way into Pearse st. Garda station.

      The yoke in Dun Laoghaire is a metal type gazebo thing originally built for the visit of Queen Victoria. Torn down by republicans it was reinstated a couple of years ago.

    • #762038
      A-ha
      Participant

      I like that we still have some reminants of our past. I’m sure the Sinn Fein supporters are cursing me to death for saying that, but wheter they like it or not, it’s part of our heritage. The Australians and Canadians are really big into the whole “Royal” thing…. although Australia is still looking for it’s independance (which they turned down in a vote about five years ago, wanting to remain under Quenn Elizabeth’s rule), the country is scattered with statues of old monarchs as well as present day Elizabeth II. It’s a shame though that we don’t have any of the nice phone boxes left, I always liked those, even though they are being wiped out in the UK. And alot of old public buldings i.e. courthouses and town halls in most towns around the country would bare some type of coat of arms with a crown.

    • #762039
      jimg
      Participant

      I’m with A-ha on this; the desire to remove all references to the brits on buildings, monuments, names of things, etc. makes me think of the Taliban blowing up old Buddha statues, Mao’s “cultural cleansing” efforts or other institutional attempts to hide history. Surely as a country we should now have the self-confidence to be able to view symbols of our past colonial status with, if not interest, at least indifference and not with shame or hatred/anger.

    • #762040
      murphaph
      Participant

      Yeah I like to see evidence of our past too. I think we’d have a lot more it it hadn’t been for the civil war (so many buildings seemed to be destroyed at that time).

      People who can’t deal with a crown and a few lions here and there are losers IMO. We’re not part of the UK, but we were.

      I had a scout through the archives and Tralee Courthouse has two canons outside which are a memorial to the Crimean war and (rather unfortunately) to some uprising in India which was put down.

    • #762041
      Rusty Cogs
      Participant

      The Excise bar in the IFSC has a stone set in it’s facade ‘His Majesties Excise Office 1827″ (William IV I think). It would be a bit heavy handed to go knocking 180 year old granite plinths out of buildings to affirm independence. However, one has to decide if we are retaining these things as a recognition of our past or as a little bit of ‘Pale’ colonial snobbery. Like mentioned before, I don’t see all these societies dropping the Royal out of their names ???

    • #762042
      dc3
      Participant

      “nice RIC heads”

      Not so, two members of the Dublin Metropolitan Police are outside the police station.

    • #762043
      asdasd
      Participant

      Given that the indigenous ( i.e pre-Norman) people in the Island were not that urban – we dont have much left, archictecturally, of Irish culture. There is NewGrange ( which may have been pre-Celtic), beehive churches, a few cultural areas ( i.e. Tara) and the Rock of Cashel, monastic remains, and round towers. I may be missing stuff. If we rejected colonial architecture we would reject most of Irish castles, and churches ( as Norman). And most things since.

      As it happens I prefer the older stuff, but I am partial to a norman castle nevertheless 🙂

    • #762044
      murphaph
      Participant

      I think the ‘Royal’ prefix is ok. Austria doesn’t have an emperor anymore but you still see K&K written on things (It means Kaiserlich und Koeniglich’ or ‘Imperial & Royal’, generally used to imply quality).

      I don’t agree that it’s ‘Pale snobbery’ as we’ve seen-there are examples all over the country.

    • #762045
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      It’s not Pale snobbery, it’s part of our heritage and these relics of auld dacency should be preserved. What happened in the 20’s was bad, what has happened since is worse. Only emerging countries with no sense of self did away with that which scared them. When Hong Kong left the Empire several of its clubs had to drop the “Royal” prefix – Jockey and Yacht spring to mind. Singapore did the same back in the 60’s. Has this ever been an issue with the RIAI?
      I like the fountain “yoke” in Dun Laoghaire, it was a disgrace for the local shinner vandals to destroy it, similarly the obelisk which had one of its balls destroyed. Q. Victoria also presented a crane to “the fisherfolk of Kingstown” which was (is?) in the coal harbor and had a daily usage rate of 7/6 . However, it cost several pints to get the guy with the crane handles to turn up when last used by me in the 1970s.
      Kerrybog
      p.s why did the sun never set on the Empire? God did not trust the Brits when the lights were out

    • #762046
      Alek Smart
      Participant

      There is a fine set of what looks like RUC cap badges on the facade of the new Habitat on College Green (Formerly The Ulster Bank ?)

    • #762047
      GrahamH
      Participant

      Surprised Governemnt Buildings of all places hasn’t been mentioned – the blatent nature of the inscriptions is really quite hilarious given the use of the building today, probably the most prominent British influence on a major Dublin building, and on the building where such remnants are least desirable! Brilliant 🙂

      It’s not necessarily true to say that the Custom House and Four Courts feature elements of British symbolism – the coat of arms and crowns are that of Ireland – not the British Crown as is commonly percieved. The ‘Kingdom of Ireland’ or something along those lines.

    • #762048
      A-ha
      Participant

      Youghal in Co. Cork is a very “Anglo” town. Sir Walter Raleigh was mayor of the town in 1588 and Queen Elizabeth I visited his house which still stands today. I went to Youghal a few days back because they are having a historical week type thing. The town was chartered and given a mace like all towns and cities in Ireland, which of course, had the emblem of the United Kingdom and the seal of the monarch at the time. You’ll propably find that all of the old towns like Youghal, Kinsale and many other places all have their own maces, which were given to them by the King or Queen of the time. Ireland will never escape it’s British past, we were part of the United Kingdom for over 500 years…… it won’t all dissappear overnight. Oh and Oliver Cromwell left Ireland for the last time from Youghal Harbour…. hehehe, and people say school is a waste of time!

    • #762049
      anto
      Participant
    • #762050
      asdasd
      Participant

      we were part of the United Kingdom for over 500 years

      For 121 years to be exact.

      You tend to be loose with your terminology, for example

      lthough Australia is still looking for it’s independance (which they turned down in a vote about five years ago, wanting to remain under Quenn Elizabeth’s rule),

      They rejected a republic, but I am not sure whether that republic would have stayed part of the commonwealth, or not. In any case they are not ruled by Elizabeth, but by the local parliaments.

    • #762051
      corcaighboy
      Participant

      In Seoul, the Korean destroyed almost all physical references to their Japanese colonial past, which was a shame in the sense that many buildings of architectural merit were destroyed and replaced by buildings which were relatively bland and austere are not very pleasing to the eye. As a result, there are veyr few ‘historic’ building in the city, which tends to extinguish whatever charm might exist. I find the city relatively boring in the sense that it is all glass and steel office blocks and concrete housing blocks and not much else besides.

      Although I don’t know of any physical references to British rule, the name of the ‘Old English Market’ in Cork probably qualifies as a partial form of British symbolism. And of course Queen Vic was buried in UCC for many years and only recently excavated from her hidden ‘grave’ when the college marked it 150th anniversary. Not sure where she hangs out now though! In any case, she was never given pride of place. After all, this was a city which the crown forces burned to the ground.

      Would not be surprised if a garrison town like Bandon had many references. The place seems more ‘English’ than any other town in Ireland. The Heritage center is located in what was Ireland’s first protestant church.

    • #762052
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      mmmmm….(why do I mostly start this way? Continue lest I regress.) A note: the person who started the thread is a prime example of current symbolism of ‘foreign’ origin being overtly present, albeit phonic. Not living on the Emerald Isle it would be interesting to know at what stage an indigenous resident used the word cheers other than when raising a glass.

      Part of the zapper syndome? (Push button ‘1’ and see what you get.)

    • #762053
      Papworth
      Participant

      Kilmainham Courthouse, Kilmainham Garda station, Royal Hospital, the Richmond Tower and on what remains of the Richmond Barracks.

    • #762054
      Radioactiveman
      Participant

      @corcaighboy wrote:

      Although I don’t know of any physical references to British rule, the name of the ‘Old English Market’ in Cork probably qualifies as a partial form of British symbolism. And of course Queen Vic was buried in UCC for many years and only recently excavated from her hidden ‘grave’ when the college marked it 150th anniversary. Not sure where she hangs out now though! In any case, she was never given pride of place. After all, this was a city which the crown forces burned to the ground.

      Queen Vic is given pride of place- she’s in a glass cabinet in the main staff common room (adjacent to the aula maxima). This statue was replaced with a statue of St. Finbarr – perched atop the aula maxima roof.
      I can still remember the controversy of a few years ago when it was dug up- ridiculous.
      Part iof our history is that we were ruled by Britain. There’s nothing we can do about so just embrace it.
      I know this thread is NOT going down the line of ripping down ‘English’ buildings and renaming ‘English’ Streets but it reminds me of a guy on local radio in Cork a few years ago.
      He was from dublin and was bemoaning the fact that in ‘Rebel’ Cork we still kept places like Wellington Road and Victoria Cross. He then went on to say that it was a shame that our Railway Station was named after a County in England!! How embarressing.
      By the way, Cork train station is named KENT station!
      True story!

    • #762055
      dodger
      Participant

      this thread seems to be going off on a life of its own.

      The fact is that we were a British colony whether we like it or not.

      However there is a case for renaming streets etc in certain cases. Afetr all we did so with the train stations – Heuston, Connolly, Mallin, ceannt etc and who would argue with that? Pearse got a street and a station renamed for him. Would we prefer to sit in traffic on Great Brunswick st (as it was known)? In cases where it is fitting to commemorate a great irish man or woman then i would be 100% behind renaming a street whihc bears the trappings of our colonial past. Particularly where the streets bear the names of trueenemies of the Irish people like Camden.

      It is perfectly natural for an indepenedent state to remove trappings of a misruled past. In the same way as granite swastikas were destroyed in Warsaw, Amsterdam and Paris

    • #762056
      ctesiphon
      Participant

      @lunasa wrote:

      Not living on the Emerald Isle it would be interesting to know at what stage an indigenous resident used the word cheers other than when raising a glass.

      I often sign off emails with it, though I think it’s a legacy of a period spent in Edinburgh rather than English influence (many Scots I know say it out loud as a parting comment, on the phone, say).
      Also, I sometimes say farewell in person with a ‘cheerio’- can’t see what all the ruddy bally-hoo is, mate. 🙂

    • #762057
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Just myself nitpicking ct, so many people are good rather than grand. It wouldn’t be so bad if it were just a question of ethics. It’s the pervasive soap culture. Push buttons one, two, three or four on the zapper. Home decoration is the same.
      Me, I’m just grand thanks.

    • #762058
      ctesiphon
      Participant

      Good man, lunasa, good man.
      I’m grand too, most of the time.
      However, I’m never swell (‘Merikay), and don’t think I’ve ever been bonzer (‘Stroyleea), to be sure to be sure.

      This bit

      ruddy bally-hoo … mate

      was just me trying to get as many Englishisms into as short a sentence as possible. Not a dig at your good self.

      Ciao for now. 🙂

      Murphaph:
      I thought of ‘insignia’, but that’s not it either. It’s driving me mad now trying to remember it. Still think it starts with a D though.

    • #762059
      kefu
      Participant

      Don’t think the swastika comparison holds any water.
      British interests in Ireland spanned hundreds of years and like-it-or-not are largely responsible for the present fabric of the city.
      The occupation of places like Paris and Amsterdam from 1940 to 1944 saw little if any building, rather the attachment of Nazi paraphenalia to pre-existing buildings.
      Equally, many Nazi buildings have quite rightly been left in situ in Germany.
      The argument about Seoul is a particularly good one. Had we destroyed everything built during our “occupation”, Dublin would be a very bland city.
      And as previous posters said, most of these buildings were built on the instructions of an Irish parliament.
      I think we should be at a stage politically and emotionally where no further royal or British insignia should ever be removed.
      I would also imagine that any structures with such references are already listed.

    • #762060
      dodger
      Participant

      i wouldn’t sugest we destroy everything built during the occupation – far from it – that would mean dismantling everything from Trim castle up. However some things should go and others were correctly removed.

      Take the queen victoria statue outside the dail for instance. It would be utterly incongrous and at odds with the exercise of independent government in the houses of the Oireachtais to have let a statue of the figurehead of the country which denied us these rights since 1801 remain there. We gave it to the Australians as a present!

      There is a major distinction to be drawn between insignia such as a crown or lion attached to buildings and statues for instance. The latter are clearly erected to memorialise individuals / events and i for one could not countenance the likes of Nelson, Victoria, Gough, William (all gone now) etc (who like it or not took hands in the subjugation of a race) looking down at me from their plinths. The odd crown attachment etc can stay as far as i’m concerned.

      One last point while we consider what grand buildings the British gave us. We can have no idea of what would have built by the Irish themselves in their places had we not been colonised and our native industries, trades destroyed. Who is to say we would not have built grander and better. Afterall pre colonisation we were doing alright and had made a contribution to international architecture.

    • #762061
      kefu
      Participant

      We have had eighty years of independence to add to the stock of great buildings in Dublin and haven’t done such a good job.

    • #762062
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @dodger wrote:

      Take the queen victoria statue outside the dail for instance. It would be utterly incongrous and at odds with the exercise of independent government in the houses of the Oireachtais to have let a statue of the figurehead of the country which denied us these rights since 1801 remain there.

      Don’t forget that Prince Albert is still standing proundly on Leinster Lawn 😀

    • #762063
      burge_eye
      Participant

      @corcaighboy wrote:

      Although I don’t know of any physical references to British rule, the name of the ‘Old English Market’ in Cork probably qualifies as a partial form of British symbolism.

      I was told by a reliable Corkonian source that it was called the “English” market because the sellers spoke English. Up until then Irish was spoken. I’m sure someone will tell me if it’s arse.

    • #762064
      dodger
      Participant

      @crestfield wrote:

      Don’t forget that Prince Albert is still standing proundly on Leinster Lawn 😀

      wouldn’t miss him one bit if somebody was to suggest a trip for him down under. He must be missing his missus. this is a connection with the past that i’d like consigned there – to the past.

    • #762065
      dodger
      Participant

      @kefu wrote:

      We have had eighty years of independence to add to the stock of great buildings in Dublin and haven’t done such a good job.

      That may be true but there are also good examples of talented irish architects forced to emigrate as a result of misrule – take James Hoban of Kilkenny – built the Whitehouse and the carolina statehouse. He could have been our Gandon.

    • #762066
      burge_eye
      Participant

      @dodger wrote:

      One last point while we consider what grand buildings the British gave us. We can have no idea of what would have built by the Irish themselves in their places had we not been colonised and our native industries, trades destroyed. Who is to say we would not have built grander and better. Afterall pre colonisation we were doing alright and had made a contribution to international architecture.

      Dodger, sometimes you just have to accept things for what they were and move on.

    • #762067
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      ct the verb you’re looking for is emblazon, methinks there is no noun.

      So there, now.

    • #762068
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Its sad that there is a failure by some to realise that the anglo-Irish who commissioned the majority of our great buildings in the 18th-19th centuries should not be dissmissed as being British. I also don’t accsept that the influance of architects from outside Ireland is a bad thing, we are priviliged to having work by the likes of Sir William Chambers, just as today our National Gallery extension is by outside an practice and rightfully so.

    • #762069
      ctesiphon
      Participant

      I reluctantly checked thesaurus.com (I’m a proud man, don’tya know) and the word I was thinking of was ‘cipher’- to do with letters intertwined. So it would be suitable for Victoria’s monogram, but not Edward’s or George’s, both of which are standard capitals.
      When I worked for the NIAH we used ‘insignia’ and ‘monogram’ interchangeably.

      Thanks to all for input.

    • #762070
      dowlingm
      Participant

      The “Irish Embassy” pub in Toronto has a big plaque outside the door declaring the building the “British Colonial Building”. 😀

    • #762071
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Ctesiphon – not sure that you’re right ; cipher is correctly used for figures, from the French “chiffre” – number.
      Lunasa – not sure that you’re right either; emblazon is when the arms are put on the building, as in “Emblazoned with the Arms of …..”
      I do agree that monogrammed is done to linen, not buildings. Cannot (yet) think of the word you seek.

    • #762072
      murphaph
      Participant

      What about just plain ‘initialed’ or ‘inscribed’?

      With respect to the statues, I think they only bother people who let themselves be bothered by ’em. Isn’t one of the finest examples of Nazi architecture actually the former german embassy in London?

    • #762073
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Escutcheon??????

    • #762074
      asdasd
      Participant

      With respect to the statues, I think they only bother people who let themselves be bothered by ’em. Isn’t one of the finest examples of Nazi architecture actually the former german embassy in London?

      A building is not a statue. I imagine that the statue of Hitler, if any, ( and the pictures on the wall ) have been removed. And Nazi insignia too.

    • #762075
      murphaph
      Participant

      @asdasd wrote:

      A building is not a statue. I imagine that the statue of Hitler, if any, ( and the pictures on the wall ) have been removed. And Nazi insignia too.

      I wasn’t really intending to write all that as one paragraph. The two sentences weren’t meant to be related, sorry for the confusion.

      However, what about statues of roman emperors in Britain, France or Germany? They ruled with iron fists and oftentimes did much worse to the populations of Britannia, Gaul and Germania than the brits did to us. Should the statues of those ‘nasty’ emperors be sent back to italy for example?

    • #762076
      asdasd
      Participant

      Should the statues of those ‘nasty’ emperors be sent back to italy for example?

      People forget with time, in any case Roman imperialism was not extreme in Britain, at all, and non-existant in Germany. The fact is – too – we celebrate English leaders we like. Gladstone for instance has a few streets named after him – and generally in places where the main street has been changed to an Irish patriot.

      ( Had the house of lords not rejected his Home Rule proposals, we would almost certainly now be in the UK).

    • #762077
      Devin
      Participant

      @Rusty Cogs wrote:

      The Excise bar in the IFSC has a stone set in it’s facade ‘His Majesties Excise Office 1827″

      (1821)
      The first time I went down to the docklands and saw that, it was eerie. It was a very tangible feeling of being under British rule. I think it was because nothing had been done to that part of the docklands at that point (early ‘90s) – it was like stepping into the past. The effect probably wouldn’t be the same today because of the regeneration. Still, I’m sure it is a bit of an eyecatcher for people who see it for the first time.

    • #762078
      A-ha
      Participant

      I hope nobody has forgotten the Royal National Lifeboat Insitution (RNLI) which has a crown on it symbolising the monarchy. Every lifeboat station in the country will have that on it’s building.

    • #762079
      Amazotheamazing
      Participant

      I was told (by some Donegal extremely nationalist lifeboat operators) that the reason the crown is kept is because they get alot of their funding from voluntary contributions from people in English cities. The Donegal guys bemoaned the fact that the Irish people had little interest in supporting the lifeboats to the extent that the English do. Don’t know if it’s true or not, but these guys viewed keeping the crown as essential to keeping the boats servicable, whether they liked the crown being there or not.

    • #762080
      notjim
      Participant

      In the TCD car park by Nassau Street there is a plaque, a bit worn, to someone who died in 1916, what makes it unusual is that this person died fighting against the rising.

      on the subject of statues of nazis, sean russell in fairview park is still missing his head!

    • #762081
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Finally got around to finding the book – it’s CYPHER, “a monogram, sometimes ensigned with a coronet of rank and used as a personal or household device.” Popular in 18th and 19th centuries when the use of armorial badges was in decline, and the new rich of the Ind. Revolution felt a need for some means of personal identity. The re-introduction of grants of badges by the College of Arms in 1906 was instrumental in stemming the tide to some extent. Cyphers are not generally subject to heraldic authority, but those of the English royal family are usually recorded at the College of Arms.
      srismhh as in acciss

    • #762082
      ctesiphon
      Participant

      What’s the book, KB2?
      Interesting that it’s spelled with a ‘Y’, but nice to have the confirmation. 😉

    • #762083
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      It’s “A Dictionary of Heraldry” edited by Stephen Friar, published by Harmony Books in NY. Great bedside book, full of arcane info such as the duties of theChampion of England!
      KB2

    • #762084
      SeamusOG
      Participant

      I think Baggot Street Hospital may have something like what you’re looking for – in the name written in big letters across the doorway. (I can’t remember what the full title is).

      Passing by it today I saw the official name in gold letters above the front door – “Royal City of Dublin Hospital”

      And I don’t think The Royal Hospital in Donnybrook has been mentioned.

    • #762085
      crc
      Participant

      @corcaighboy wrote:

      Although I don’t know of any physical references to British rule, the name of the ‘Old English Market’ in Cork probably qualifies as a partial form of British symbolism.

      @burge_eye wrote:

      I was told by a reliable Corkonian source that it was called the “English” market because the sellers spoke English. Up until then Irish was spoken. I’m sure someone will tell me if it’s arse.

      I’m not an authority on this, but I think it’s called the ‘English Market’ due to the ethnicity, rather than the language, of its patrons and/or sellers.

      To back up this claim, I noticed that there is a sign in Grand Parade pointing to the market. The sign is in Irish and says “Sean Mhargadh na Sacsan”.

      There are also several Royal Standards and insignia around UCC, particularly on the old building in the Quad.

    • #762086
      Morlan
      Participant

      I never noticed this before. I think that’s the crown there on the Trinity Arch Hotel..

    • #762087
      murphaph
      Participant

      I love that bulding and I often look up at it and I’ve never noticed that crown either! It’s tiny.

    • #762088
      Morlan
      Participant

      @murphaph wrote:

      I love that bulding and I often look up at it and I’ve never noticed that crown either! It’s tiny.

      😀 Yeah, I only noticed from zooming into my photographs. There’s actually two crowns there.

    • #762089
      GrahamH
      Participant

      Hmmm interesting – never noticed them before either, just assuming them to be the marble baubles usually featured.
      The crowns seem to be mutlitonal too – though that could just be the dirt 🙂

      Archiseek: “modelled on the London head office of Crown Life” – if that says anything…

      One of the magnificent heraldic sculptures of the Custom House:

    • #762090
      ctesiphon
      Participant

      AFAIK, it’s a Deane and Woodward building, which means Freddie O’Dwyer’s fantastic book on them should have a mention of the crown. He’s not a man to miss a detail like that. I’ll check in the library when I have a chance.
      (C’mon Freddie, don’t fail me!)

      As a ‘relative’ of the Crown Life building, might that have something to do with the feature? Was it perhaps a company logo?

    • #762091
      A-ha
      Participant

      I love those sculptures on Custom House aswell, and love getting to see ’em when I go to Dublin. If Sinn Fein had their way, they’d probably be knocked down, crushed, melted and re-made as a 1916 war memorial.

    • #762092
      murphaph
      Participant

      The beading around Hibernia on that one makes it look like an oval pound coin! Great sculpture though-the effort that was put into public buildings back then really showed a sense of pride in them. The unicorn is class. I have a huge soft spot for the CH too, especially by night from across the river at high tide when the water’s still-fantastic reflection; Can’t find a good pic but imagine it from this;

    • #762093
      anto
      Participant

      @crc wrote:

      I’m not an authority on this, but I think it’s called the ‘English Market’ due to the ethnicity, rather than the language, of its patrons and/or sellers.

      To back up this claim, I noticed that there is a sign in Grand Parade pointing to the market. The sign is in Irish and says “Sean Mhargadh na Sacsan”.

      There are also several Royal Standards and insignia around UCC, particularly on the old building in the Quad.

      The english market was for the protestatnt acendancy, who I suppose still saw themselves or others saw them as english.

      The poorer catholic Irish went to the Coal Quay market. Still a bit of a market there on Saturdays and it’s still the poor relation of the two markets.

    • #762094
      jmrowland
      Participant

      Nobody seems to have mentioned that King John’s Castle in Limerick has his coat of arms over the gate on Castle Street. Interesting considering that one of the four walls of the castle had been demolished for a social housing project in the 1940’s.

    • #762095
      Praxiteles
      Participant

      @GrahamH wrote:

      Hmmm interesting – never noticed them before either, just assuming them to be the marble baubles usually featured.
      The crowns seem to be mutlitonal too – though that could just be the dirt 🙂

      Archiseek: “modelled on the London head office of Crown Life” – if that says anything…

      One of the magnificent heraldic sculptures of the Custom House:

      But is this not a representation of the arms of the Kingdom of Ireland? A scaled down version still appears on Irish coinage!

    • #762096
      Praxiteles
      Participant

      @A-ha wrote:

      Youghal in Co. Cork is a very “Anglo” town. Sir Walter Raleigh was mayor of the town in 1588 and Queen Elizabeth I visited his house which still stands today. I went to Youghal a few days back because they are having a historical week type thing. The town was chartered and given a mace like all towns and cities in Ireland, which of course, had the emblem of the United Kingdom and the seal of the monarch at the time. You’ll propably find that all of the old towns like Youghal, Kinsale and many other places all have their own maces, which were given to them by the King or Queen of the time. Ireland will never escape it’s British past, we were part of the United Kingdom for over 500 years…… it won’t all dissappear overnight. Oh and Oliver Cromwell left Ireland for the last time from Youghal Harbour…. hehehe, and people say school is a waste of time!

      A-ha!

      Here are a few examples of those Cork maces.

      The UCC mace made by WIlliam Egan, Patrick’s Street (1910)
      The Castlemartyr mace with the arms of James II, c.1685
      The mace of the Cork Trade Guilds, by Robert Gobel of Cork 1696
      The armorials of Chales I and of the town from the mace of Youghal (1630)

    • #762097
      Praxiteles
      Participant

      and here is Robert Goble mace for Midleton c. 1700

    • #762098
      -Donnacha-
      Participant

      I suppose the important thing is that we have developed our own sense of identity as modern Ireland and that we’re now sufficiently self-confident to be able to simply treat those old british symbols as a part of our history and just move on with being modern Ireland without feeling the need to demolish all the post boxes.

      It’s just all part of a very rich history of various contacts (good and bad) with neighbouring countries.

      As for the RNLI. I find it very odd indeed that both the UK and Ireland effectively have a charity operating our coast guard system!

      Surely the RNLI should be getting heafty state funding from both the Republic of Ireland and the UK’s governments!! It’s an absolsutely vital service.

    • #762099
      A-ha
      Participant

      Queen Victoria Statue
      Very familiar site if you’ve been to Sydney. The statue of Queen Victoria stood outside Leinster House until 1947, but was given to Australia as a gift in 1987 by the people of Ireland (after being in storage somewhere in Dublin for 50 years). A popular touist destination in Sydney is the Queen Victoria Building, and the statue is right outside that. It was made by an Irish man aswell, but I can’t think of his name.
      Thanks for the pics. of all the maces’. I saw them last year in the Crawford when the Cork Silver exhibition was on. Extremely fascinating.
      And Mr. X, I totally agree about the RNLI….. how they manage on donations I don’t know. It would be similar to having the fire brigade run on a charitable basis.
      Did anyone mention the Royal Cork Yacht Club.

    • #762100
      Praxiteles
      Participant

      @asdasd wrote:

      People forget with time, in any case Roman imperialism was not extreme in Britain, at all, and non-existant in Germany. The fact is – too – we celebrate English leaders we like. Gladstone for instance has a few streets named after him – and generally in places where the main street has been changed to an Irish patriot.

      ( Had the house of lords not rejected his Home Rule proposals, we would almost certainly now be in the UK).

      In Cork, for instance, we have Charlotte St., Coburg St., Hanover St., York St., to name but a few, while in Dublin you have Nassau St……

    • #762101
      GregF
      Participant

      Don’t forget too King Billy’s mush is on the Lord Mayor of Dublin’s gold chain. The Lord Mayor of Dublin’s coach is a briiliant left over too. All these symbols are part of our history and as has already been said shouldn’t be removed. There’s a little part of Brit blood in all of us. The Gaelic revival as wel as partial Irish independence gave precedence to this Gaelic aspect of Irish history to enhance our national identity when we were a somewhat broken and battered isolated people.

    • #762102
      GrahamH
      Participant

      @Praxiteles wrote:

      But is this not a representation of the arms of the Kingdom of Ireland? A scaled down version still appears on Irish coinage!

      Not like you to miss out on a detail Praxiteles ]It’s not necessarily true to say that the Custom House and Four Courts feature elements of British symbolism – the coat of arms and crowns are that of Ireland: not the British Crown as is commonly percieved. The ‘Kingdom of Ireland’ or along those lines.[/QUOTE]

      And of course that harp is now the emblem of the IAA.

    • #762103
      Paul Clerkin
      Keymaster

      Many Church of Ireland have military memorials etc too – often overlooked when thinking of crown symbolism

    • #762104
      Praxiteles
      Participant
      GrahamH wrote:
      Not like you to miss out on a detail Praxiteles ]

      The arms on the Custom House are those of the Kingdom of Ireland and are NOT British arms at all.

      If you look at the Royal Standard, you will see that it is comprised of the three realms or kingdoms which originally were only uited in the person of the sovereign: in the first quarter is England; in the Second Scotland; in the third England and in the Fourth Ireland.

      I would point out, that the present standard of the President of Ireland is that found in the fourth quartering of the Royal Standard.

      The second image below is tah of the present standard of the President of Ireland.

    • #762105
      Morlan
      Participant

      Pitty our current harp doesn’t have a pair of tits.

    • #762106
      Praxiteles
      Participant

      There is prudery for you!!

    • #762107
      goldiefish
      Participant

      In the Custom House in cork, the Sign for the Customs office clearly has the Prefix “HM” in recently removed letters.

      Also Much of the Naval base maintains its Royal Naval heritage(and rightly so) including the sign for the Royal Naval Hospital, and the Housing with streets named after famous Royal Naval Warships.

    • #762108
      Praxiteles
      Participant

      Was not only in 1937 that the Union Jack came down in Haulbowlin?

    • #762109
      goldiefish
      Participant

      No they left Haulbowline in 22, but remained in Spike and Fort Carlisle and Camden until 38.

    • #762110
      fergalr
      Participant

      The quite interesting issue mentioned earlier about whether or not the indigenous Irish could have surpassed the architecture of the British, seems to me to have been answered in stone.

      The Bank of Ireland building, the Custom House, the Four Courts, the Kings Inns, our magnificent City Hall and formerly the Royal Exchange, domestic Georgian Dublin, the foresight of the Wide Street Commissioners..all this was the work of an Irish parliament, Irish people and Irish associations.
      Anglo-Irish perhaps and Protestant by definition..but does that detract from the Irish nature of the work or the Irish nature of those hwo commissioned much of it? Does anyone here consider these buildings-these wonderous buildings-as anything other than ours?

    • #762111
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @fergalr wrote:

      Anglo-Irish perhaps and Protestant by definition..but does that detract from the Irish nature of the work or the Irish nature of those hwo commissioned much of it? Does anyone here consider these buildings-these wonderous buildings-as anything other than ours?

      That question demands (or perhaps risks?) a response that could be construed as political. Firstly, I do not agree with your statement that “Anglo-Irish” is Protestant by definition. In that era there were many Catholic Anglo-Irish, disparagingly called shoneens or West Brits, for their views that were seen as anti-nationalistic.
      I always have believed that the reason Ireland has such a poor “Big House” stock is that the vast majority of landlords transferred most of their income/loot/ill-gotten gains (pick according to your persuasion) to maintain their lifestyle and estates off this island, particularly since the Act of Union. The subsequent lack of style in rural Ireland led to a bleakness in rural architecture; anyone who had the wherewithal to better himself had nothing to emulate or model his aspirations on. Think of the manor houses or those of yeomen in Sussex, for example, and the design impact they had on the local built environment. In the Irish vacuum there also was punitive taxation (Hearth Tax, Window Tax, Tithes, etc.), an equally punitive legislation (Penal Laws and no fixity of tenure for leaseholders) so there was not much incentive to build even a modest house. Add to that the frequent risings, invasions, rebellions, etc., and there was no incentive at all.
      I agree that the great buildings from that era metaphorically are “ours” regardless of class or creed because we have inherited them in trust, to be preserved and passed on in similar or better condition. Many literally are ours because we have fought to preserve them with little or no help from anyone. It is regrettable that many Irish people rejoiced when the built heritage was burned in 1922 and there are many today who would pull down what remains because their twisted outlook regards that as a sign of British Imperialism…. it’s not so long since the “patriots” took sledge hammers to the cast-iron Victoria Fountain in Dun Laoghaire and tried to blow up the obelisk on the seafront. Not to mention poor old Nelson.
      KB2

    • #762112
      fergalr
      Participant

      Ah for all the talk of poor Nelson..it looked like a dumpy oul’ thing and, I’ll be honest, I prefer the Spike.

    • #762113
      Morlan
      Participant

      The statue itself would have been moved by now if not for the bombing. Nelson has no relevance to Irish people or culture. It was suggested at one stage to replace Nelson with President Kennedy or the Sacred Heart!

      What does the Spire represent again? :confused:

    • #762114
      Praxiteles
      Participant

      The arms on Monaghan (?) Court House are interesting in that they show the arms used between the arrival of the Elector of Brunswick-Lueneburg in England in 1714 to the separation of Hanover from England, Ireland and Scotland in 1837.

      The arms are the usual: England, Scotland, England and Ireland. Superimposed are the arms of the Duchies of Brunswick and Lueneburg and those of the Principality of Calenberg. Superimposed on these is the Crown of Charlemange indicating that the Elector of Brunswick-Lueneburg was also Arch-Treasurer of the Holy Roman Empire

      Attached is a picture of the arms which are probably more German than British.

    • #762115
      Hiivaladan
      Participant

      I was just musing on this topic since I read it recently and was wondering, if you took the view that buildings that were built/commisioned by/associated with an occupier or conqueror were to be demolished what effect it would have on other countries of the world. This is the likely scenario:
      1. The UK.To start with we would have the removal or destruction of the baths in Bath, Hadrians Wall (Roman),Durham Cathedral and scores of other religous buildings, the Tower of London and a score of other castles-(Norman).
      2.Spain:The Alhambra,The Mosque in Cordoba,Medina el Zahra,The Aljafiera in Zaragosa,The Tower of gold in Seville (to name only 5 complexes out of many).All built by Muslim conquerors
      3. All the Ottoman structures in The Middle East and Eastern Europe outside of Turkey.
      4.The Serbian-built, Orthodox monasteries (Sopocani. etc) of Kosovo.
      5.Everything built by the Mongol Yuan Dynasty in China
      7.The Taj Mahal and the thousands of other Moghul-and earlier-buildings in India.
      8. The entire centre of Helsinki..built under Russian rule.Not to mention other buildings in Estonia, Latva and Lithuania like Vilnius
      Cathedral,Presidential Palace and Town Hall.
      9.The Hispanic Churches and palaces in Mexico at Oaxaca, Mexico City,Gualadlupe etc etc
      10. Many buildings in Budapest .especially the Castle
      11. Most buildings in Prague including the University,St.Nicholas in Mala Strana and most of the churches.
      12. The Castel Nuovo (and doubtless other buildings in Southern Italy) constructed by The Spanish and many churches in Naples built by the French.
      13. A vast numbers of buildings in South Africa

      ..and that’s just the beginning of the possible list!

    • #762116
      Paul Clerkin
      Keymaster

      @Praxiteles wrote:

      The arms on Monaghan (?) Court House are interesting in that they show the arms used between the arrival of the Elector of Brunswick-Lueneburg in England in 1714 to the separation of Hanover from England, Ireland and Scotland in 1837.

      The arms are the usual: England, Scotland, England and Ireland. Superimposed are the arms of the Duchies of Brunswick and Lueneburg and those of the Principality of Calenberg. Superimposed on these is the Crown of Charlemange indicating that the Elector of Brunswick-Lueneburg was also Arch-Treasurer of the Holy Roman Empire

      Attached is a picture of the arms which are probably more German than British.

      Yep that is Monaghan Courthouse – taken before the Shinners burned it down (in an attempt to rid the building of its arms I believe)

    • #762117
      PTB
      Participant

      @KerryBog2 wrote:

      In the Irish vacuum there also was punitive taxation (Hearth Tax, Window Tax, Tithes, etc.), KB2

      I was talking about this with the da a while back when we entered an old house with a very low doorway. While I argued that this was because people were smaller in those years due to poorer nutrition, he argued that there was a door tax. Is this right?

      And how did you tax a hearth? By its homeliness?

    • #762118
      Hiivaladan
      Participant

      Number of fireplaces, possibly?

    • #762119
      Praxiteles
      Participant

      @PTB wrote:

      I was talking about this with the da a while back when we entered an old house with a very low doorway. While I argued that this was because people were smaller in those years due to poorer nutrition, he argued that there was a door tax. Is this right?

      And how did you tax a hearth? By its homeliness?

      At the rate of 2/- a hearth. See this for some general info.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearth

    • #762120
      Praxiteles
      Participant

      @PTB wrote:

      I was talking about this with the da a while back when we entered an old house with a very low doorway. While I argued that this was because people were smaller in those years due to poorer nutrition, he argued that there was a door tax. Is this right?

      And how did you tax a hearth? By its homeliness?

      Not sure about door tax but there certainly was a window tax!

    • #762121
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      People were a lot smaller – one only has to look at suits of armor to realize how small they were.
      I’m not aware of there ever being a tax on doors.
      Window tax was introduced in 1697. It was actually a tax on houses, scaled according to the number of windows in the house. Initially the occupier was charged 2s per year, or 4s for those with 10-20 windows, and 8s for those with more than 20 windows. In 1747 the charges were: 10-14 windows at 6d per window, 15-19 windows at 9d, and 20 or more windows at 1s. In 1825 houses with less than 8 windows became exempt. In 1851 the tax was abolished. Window tax avoidance can sometimes explain blocked windows, but blind windows could be a design feature of Georgian houses, springing from the passion for symmetry.
      From http://www.building-history.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Buildings/Houses.htm

      KB2

    • #762122
      Maskhadov
      Participant

      they should remove all british symbols because its an absolute joke that another country has them on your own national buildings. It just highlights how deformed some of the people are in the political establishment here.

    • #762123
      colm07
      Participant

      I guess everyone is forgetting Fusiliers Arch better known as “Traitors Gate” in the early 1900s. Traitors gate is the entrance to St. Stephens Green at the Grafton ST. end. This was erected to the Royal Dublin Fusiliers who fought with the British empire (1899-1902) in the second Boer war.

    • #762124
      colm07
      Participant

      Like Maskhadov said…The wellington monument in the Phoenix Park. This celebrates the British victory at waterloo and it stands at 205 feet tall. The four bronze plaques are from cannons captured at the battle of Waterloo. They were then melted down and cast for this monument.

    • #762125
      Praxiteles
      Participant

      Was it not an allied victory at Waterloo involving Austria, Prussia, Russia, the emigé French, and the British?

    • #762126
      ake
      Participant

      Aren’t those plaques by Irish sculptors?

    • #762127
      Praxiteles
      Participant

      @Maskhadov wrote:

      they should remove all british symbols because its an absolute joke that another country has them on your own national buildings. It just highlights how deformed some of the people are in the political establishment here.

      I have tried to point out before on this thread that many of the armoral displays on Irish buildings -especially before 1800- are not British but are proper to the Kingdom of Ireland, irrespective of whomsoever ruled it.

      Also, other displays are so diluted that they can hardly be regarded as British. Take the coat of arm on Monaghan Court House. Of 8 fields on it, only 2 are English, one is Scottish, 1 is Irish, 3 are German, and 1 (in pretence) refers to the Holy Roman Empire!!

    • #762128
      colm07
      Participant

      Praxiteles, yes there was a coalition against the French

      ake…I don’t know who cast them, but they are cool considering the history in them. My Dad use to bring me to the Phoenix Park as a boy and he told me about the plaques. To me it was the coolest thing ever ,besides the German graveyard in Glencree (WW2 guys), I lived near there and used to play with German toy soldiers at the time. I live in the U.S now, they never sell German soldiers, only American troops. I was born in 1970, I remember every toy shop in Ireland selling mostly German soldiers in the late 70’s.

      Sorry, just made me go back to my childhood days:) 🙂

    • #762129
      Praxiteles
      Participant

      They make those German toy soldiers in Ballyvourney – lots of them!

      BTW The coalition was not against the French but against the French Revolutionaries under Napoleon!

    • #762130
      colm07
      Participant

      Praxiteles, I dont give a hoot about the French. You study this stuff? Since Napoleon the French have always been loosers. They love to surrender, those people.

    • #762131
      Praxiteles
      Participant

      @colm07 wrote:

      Praxiteles, I dont give a hoot about the French. You study this stuff? Since Napoleon the French have always been loosers. They love to surrender, those people.

      There could be something to that. It might be connected with their well known sense of national humility!

    • #762132
      ake
      Participant

      According to wiki, two of the plaques are by Hogan and Farrell.

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