Bridge to Scotland
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Ireland’s bridge link plan
The Daily Express, Thursday August 23rd, 2007
(c) 2007 Express NewspapersThink tank says project would boost Scots and Irish economies A 21-MILE bridge or tunnel connecting Scotland with Ireland would provide a “massive” boost for both countries, an Irish think tank said yesterday.
The crossing could form part of a Europe-wide rail network and offer an alternative to air travel, or ferries between the UK and Ireland.
The notion was floated by the Centre for Cross-Border Studies, which admitted it was “a very, very ambitious” idea.
But centre director Andy Pollak said that while the Irish government was planning to spend £3.4billion on a 10-mile rail link from Dublin airport to the city centre, the world’s longest sea-crossing bridge in Hangzhou Bay, China, would cost £750million.
“It struck me that the gains to be obtained from building a bridge which might cost, say, a couple of billion across the North Channel between Scotland and Ireland would outweigh the cost, ” he said.
The crossing could link the whole of Ireland with Scotland, England and wider Europe, said Mr Pollak.
The original idea came from a subscriber to the centre’s newsletter who was struck by a map putting Glasgow at the north-west corner of a European high-speed rail network which omitted Ireland.
“The original idea was that Ireland should be linked into this futuristic rail network, ” he said. He admitted it was a “massive” challenge.
“It’s just an idea – a very, very ambitious idea, ” he said. “But I put it forward because I think it could be one of the triggers to the next phase in Ireland’s economic development.”
While the Channel Tunnel still had debts, the Eurostar rail service between London and Paris had taken 70 per cent of the previous levels o f air traffic between those two cities.
He said the possible price tag o f “two or three billion” was plucked out of the air. “We hope that maybe people far more expert than us in engineering and raising finance might come in, we might get a little bit o f European money to do a scoping study to see if this is really feasible.
“But as Scotland and Ireland raise their sights economically – Scotland is obviously moving to a more independent position – it’s this kind o f exciting infrastructure project that maybe should be contemplated.”
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Given the history of the false political entity that is Northern Ireland, do we really want to build a tunnel to Scotland? Can you imagine the bunch of west coast bigots tearing over every July to join up with their ancestors for the celebrations? Get me a bucket !
If you want something to benefit the country in an all Ireland economic context why not build a connection from Dublin to say Manchester or Liverpool? That would be far better from a strategic viewpoint as there would be reasonable access to Dublin from most parts of the country. -
If a considerably shorter tunnel between two of the three largest european ecnomies was hard to justify cost wise, theres no way a tunel from Dublin to Wales would be justified. This is not the first time it has been proposed. And theres even less of a case to build one from Belfast. Ask these people to pay for it with the norths own money and the idea will sink quicker than the titanic.
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When the island of Ireland becomes a unified nation, we’ll think about it then…….
imagine the furure from ferry companies, taking the current shannon situation as a yardstick…
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Doesn’t make a lick of sense. Eurostar was an alternative to the London to Paris air route and cross-channel sea freight. London to Dublin has become Europe’s busiest air route since the channel tunnel opened. Don’t know how Belfast to Edinburgh/ Glasgow compares…
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🙁 Ireland is an island, let’s keep it that way.
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@henno wrote:
imagine the furure from ferry companies, taking the current shannon situation as a yardstick…
Funny you should say that henno, this was in last Saturday’s Irish Times:
Irish Times wrote:High-speed Limerick-London rail link should be consideredThe fallout from Aer Lingus’s decision to terminate its Shannon-Heathrow service illustrates the central role of international transport connections in Irish economic and social life, writes Tony Kinsella
Ireland desperately needs a comprehensive, integrated transport policy. An informed national debate on our options is a prerequisite.
As an island, we need both sea and air transport links. Almost half of last year’s 21 million passenger journeys from Dublin airport were to UK destinations.
We have either hit, or are about to hit, what industry specialists call the “peak oil” moment, when half the planet’s oil will have been extracted. Dr M King Hubbert (who correctly predicted the 1970 peak in US domestic oil production) foresaw the global oil peak for 1996, while others suggest it is currently taking place. The International Energy Agency believes it could begin to happen from 2017]
Got to say, with a risk of being in a minority of one, I’m all in favour of pursuing the Dubllin – UK high-speed rail tunnel link. Apart from anything else, it seems to me that Dublin would be the most logical start point as, thru bad strategic planning, we have already ended up with a Dublin-centric radial transport network – so any other location at this stage would be pointless.
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Morlan, johnfp , tad parochial, self centred, insular , anul, regressive and backward looking don’t ya think? I think myself I’ve misjudged you all , you’re no doubt right …………you’re better off as an island, think we are too now obviously.
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In the Suburban to SuperRural exhibition there is a piece by heneghan peng architects which proposes a bridge from rosslare to fishguard, a distance of 80km, thats more than twice the Hangzhou Bay Bridge (37km) which will be the worlds largest ocean crossing bridge.
http://www.roadtraffic-technology.com/projects/hangzhou/
All for the bargain price of 1.42. billion dollars! I wonder what that would cost in Ireland. Perhaps we should contract the Chinese to build one for us. At that rate we would get a bridge to fishguard for less than the M3!
Anyway here is what Henneghan Peng propose. If it was feasible i reckon it would be great!
here is a link to the pdf from where i got these images
http://www.architecturefoundation.ie/vb06/spread/hp_spread.pdf
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well exactly Paul, if the bridge is scuppered it’ll be back to plan B for us in Scotland and finding another way to rid ourselves of the west coast bigots we’re all tripping over for other eleven months of the year.
Of course the twenty thousand Irishmen I see at Celtic Park every week might be a bit cheesed off
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@johnfp wrote:
Given the history of the false political entity that is Northern Ireland, do we really want to build a tunnel to Scotland? Can you imagine the bunch of west coast bigots tearing over every July to join up with their ancestors for the celebrations? Get me a bucket !
If you want something to benefit the country in an all Ireland economic context why not build a connection from Dublin to say Manchester or Liverpool? That would be far better from a strategic viewpoint as there would be reasonable access to Dublin from most parts of the country.moron
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@alan d wrote:
Morlan, johnfp , tad parochial, self centred, insular , anul, regressive and backward looking don’t ya think? I think myself I’ve misjudged you all , you’re no doubt right …………you’re better off as an island, think we are too now obviously.
How dare you label me with those words. I only said I’d prefer not to have bridges/tunnels linking to Britain or Europe. How is that backward, self centred, regressive? Don’t be so quick to judge people you don’t know :rolleyes:
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@Morlan wrote:
How dare you label me with those words. I only said I’d prefer not to have bridges/tunnels linking to Britain or Europe. How is that backward, self centred, regressive? Don’t be so quick to judge people you don’t know :rolleyes:
big jump from “ireland is an island, let’s keep it that way” to “I’d prefer not to have bridges/tunnels linking to Britain or Europe”!!
in any event, the additional of a bridge or a tunnel doesn’t stop it being an island. It’ll still be completely surrounded by water.
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As the Folkstone-Calais Tunnel has proved both aviation and ferries survived the tunnel.
Dublin to UK doesn’t have the passenger loadings to justify upgrading of the rail line accross North Wales to Crewe let alone a £3.4bn tunnel which is costed to 21 miles in length alone.
It may take a flight to get to Scotland from either London, Dublin or Belfast but the cultural links between both Scotland and Ireland are strong enough to ensure that such sums needn’t be wasted on such a vanity project!
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@alan d wrote:
Of course the twenty thousand Irishmen I see at Ikea every week might be a bit cheesed off
😀
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@wearnicehats wrote:
big jump from “ireland is an island, let’s keep it that way” to “I’d prefer not to have bridges/tunnels linking to Britain or Europe”!!
in any event, the additional of a bridge or a tunnel doesn’t stop it being an island. It’ll still be completely surrounded by water.
Congratulations.
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to be fair, in some parts “ireland is an island, let’s keep it that way” does indicate an internationalist perspective. Visions also of Morlan twisting the tips of his lightly waxed, handlebar moustache with
“How dare you label me with those words”.ctesiphon…very good, made me laugh.
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Doubt it, we’ve already dumped a Scottish Prime Minister on them…….. they’re beginning to suspect
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I presume that the geusstemations for the bridge do not bring in the considerable cost of building a rail line up to Belfast or down to Rosslare, or the cost of building a new station, or the fact that if is to be constructed, it will probably happen in 15 to 20 years and cost a half to a third more again.
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@alan d wrote:
to be fair, in some parts “ireland is an island, let’s keep it that way” does indicate an internationalist perspective. Visions also of Morlan twisting the tips of his lightly waxed, handlebar moustache with
“How dare you label me with those words”.ctesiphon…very good, made me laugh.
Alan,
The last thing I want is bad feelings between members on these forums.
I was very disappointed by Johnfp’s comments when I read them. I found his comments to be very backward and anti-British to be honest.
Unfortunately, you misunderstood my original comment and decided to cast the same judgment upon myself as being “self centred, insular, regressive”, etc. You completely misunderstood me and I was annoyed by that.
Johnfp’s detailed comment may have deserved such an attack, but my comment did not. On reflection, I should have been more clear in my original post, but I still believe that you wrongfully lashed out at me – It was uncalled for.
I moved to Edinburgh for two years in 2003 purposefully to experience Scotland’s culture and traditions. I worked in Glasgow for 6 months and travelled to the Highlands for 1 month to try and understand Scotland’s culture in it’s entirety. I am telling you this because I don’t want you to think that I am “insular” or “parochial”, Alan, you completely misunderstood me. I’d appreciate if you would retract those statements about me.
Anyway, all the best, Alan, and I hope that there are no bad feelings between us.
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Well, this all seems to be going ever so slightly off track but given that I feel responsible I am going to respond.
To put this matter in context I should point out that I am from Southern Ireland and live in Scotland, in fact have done so for the last 15 years or so. In retrospect I admit my comments were relative to a few not so pleasant experiences I have had in Scotland (though for the purpose of a balanced view I have to say these have been few and far betwween) One of my first experiences here involved going to Glasgow on business when I had the misfortune to arrive slap bang in the middle of an orange walk .I was never even politically motivated until I saw that nor had I ever experienced such a frightening display of bigotry and pure hate. It was simply driven home to me that this is the type of thing experienced probably on a daily basis by the catholic / nathionist community in Northern Ireland. In this modern era of peace process / political correctness people who have no experience of the troubles conveniently forget the root cause it, and you dont have to look too far from the plantations for that. Of course there are bigots on both sides but lets not forget where it all started and who was responsible. So, from a historical / political viewpoint, I am not of the opinion it would be appropriate to build a tunnel or bridge from the North to Scotland as I think there is a long way to go to justify it either socially, politically or economically. Relations between catholic / protestant, nationalist / unionist still have a long way to go and in my view justice will never be done until there is a United Ireland where all the people of whatever religion and political affiliation can live together in peace and harmony. A tunnell from Scotland to Northern Ireland just sends out the wrong message as far as I am concerned. Finally, for all you perfect people out there, I am not a bigot nor have I ever been. I despise extremism in any shape or form. As regards my attitute to Scotland / Protestants , well I married one and remain happily married. I know this is an architecture forum but when talking about Ireland it’s enivitable from time to time that one comes across a political context and I for one am not afraid to speak my mind, and I have no apology to make for that. ….one final point, love Scotland and have met and befriended many fine people here but I aint gonna suck ass just so I can join the pc gang. -
where is this “southern ireland” place?
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it’s the same as the Republic Free State of Éire
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@johnfp wrote:
Well, this all seems to be going ever so slightly off track but given that I feel responsible I am going to respond.
To put this matter in context I should point out that I am from Southern Ireland and live in Scotland, in fact have done so for the last 15 years or so. In retrospect I admit my comments were relative to a few not so pleasant experiences I have had in Scotland (though for the purpose of a balanced view I have to say these have been few and far betwween) One of my first experiences here involved going to Glasgow on business when I had the misfortune to arrive slap bang in the middle of an orange walk .I was never even politically motivated until I saw that nor had I ever experienced such a frightening display of bigotry and pure hate. It was simply driven home to me that this is the type of thing experienced probably on a daily basis by the catholic / nathionist community in Northern Ireland. In this modern era of peace process / political correctness people who have no experience of the troubles conveniently forget the root cause it, and you dont have to look too far from the plantations for that. Of course there are bigots on both sides but lets not forget where it all started and who was responsible. So, from a historical / political viewpoint, I am not of the opinion it would be appropriate to build a tunnel or bridge from the North to Scotland as I think there is a long way to go to justify it either socially, politically or economically. Relations between catholic / protestant, nationalist / unionist still have a long way to go and in my view justice will never be done until there is a United Ireland where all the people of whatever religion and political affiliation can live together in peace and harmony. A tunnell from Scotland to Northern Ireland just sends out the wrong message as far as I am concerned. Finally, for all you perfect people out there, I am not a bigot nor have I ever been. I despise extremism in any shape or form. As regards my attitute to Scotland / Protestants , well I married one and remain happily married. I know this is an architecture forum but when talking about Ireland it’s enivitable from time to time that one comes across a political context and I for one am not afraid to speak my mind, and I have no apology to make for that. ….one final point, love Scotland and have met and befriended many fine people here but I aint gonna suck ass just so I can join the pc gang.nope, still a moron
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I can assure you johnfp, you’ll be getting no where near my ass and it has nothing to do with being pc. If some scottish plonker was to say that the bridge should be rubbished because it’ll fill the west of Scotland with gombeen and tinkers, well, like me, you’d think the person an absolute fool, would’nt you? What the rest of your justification post has to do with a bridge, is beyond me
Morlan, happy to withdraw my remark. If nothing else this debate has given me the chance to use the word “gombeen”………I’ve been waiting five years to do it
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@johnfp wrote:
Given the history of the false political entity that is Northern Ireland, do we really want to build a tunnel to Scotland? Can you imagine the bunch of west coast bigots tearing over every July to join up with their ancestors for the celebrations? Get me a bucket !
When you think of every possible thing that can be thought about Scotland….and this is what is brought up. Nothing positive,but the ould moans. Give ME the bucket.:(
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😉 Hi,
I’ve always found this an interesting site but have never posted a comment until now. On first glance johnfp’s comments do appear somewhat insular, even gombeenish as a_devlin puts it. However, I do feel ther is merit in a political argument here insofar as there is little doubt that the majority in Northern Ireland would percieve such an infrastructural project as in some way copper fastening the union between Great Britain and there. In effect it would undermine Irelands status as an island state, would it not? I cant imagine the nationalists would ever agree to it in the current climate so maybe that’s what johnfp was on about, though if it is he should have left out reference to bigotry etc.
As an aside can I say Dublin is changing beyond all recognition compared to when I last visited there in the early 90’s, particularly like whats going on down docklands way. -
[quote In effect it would undermine Irelands status as an island state, would it not? [/QUOTE]
Isn’t that what some British said about the Channel Tunnel? Same difference!
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Same difference? I dont think so ! Britain doesnt have a seperate internal jurusdiction claiming allegence to France does it?
Highlandpaddy, that is exactly my point, even if my initial post on the matter was in retrospect inaqppropriate. -
@PTB wrote:
I presume that the geusstemations for the bridge do not bring in the considerable cost of building a rail line up to Belfast or down to Rosslare, or the cost of building a new station, or the fact that if is to be constructed, it will probably happen in 15 to 20 years and cost a half to a third more again.
try http://www.irishrail.ie. If you look closely there are services available to Belfast and Rosslare. Indeed, if you get the enterprise up to Belfast and have a look around you’ll actually find some places with electricity and running water.
Paul, can you check the server – every time I click on this thread I get redirected to An Phoblacht
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..seems to be a time-warp problem too. It even looks like pre-1996 ‘An Phoblacht’!
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Back to the matter in hand – the water depth between Ireland and Scotland is actually the deepest point of the Irish Sea and it is also the location of the main fault line between the two islands so it is probably the most geologically unsound point to build any sort of tunnel. Hence, for cost and geologic purposes – this not going to happen.
Not that that would ever stop the Express printing any old bollocks
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how did Finn MacCool get across then Rory, or is that just bollocks too?
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@Rory W wrote:
Back to the matter in hand – the water depth between Ireland and Scotland is actually the deepest point of the Irish Sea
Yeap, was up that area in July by boat…. echo sounder regularly lost signal where depths were in the 90metres to 100plus metres
By comparision, Dover/Calais deepest section about 50m
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@alan d wrote:
how did Finn MacCool get across then Rory, or is that just bollocks too?
well he didn’t build his bridge very well – foundations all right but…
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@alan d wrote:
how did Finn MacCool get across then Rory, or is that just bollocks too?
Old Finn’s tale was just a load of old cobblers.:D
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that would also explain why St Patrick had to use a coracle, to get over with all those snakes?
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@samuel j wrote:
Yeap, was up that area in July by boat….
were you trying to get over from Scotland for the 12th?
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hahahahahahahaa
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@wearnicehats wrote:
were you trying to get over from Scotland for the 12th?
Ha, ha…very good… 😀
But was berthed in Scotland on the 12th…. Tricolour on stern and courtesy flag cross of St. andrew.
Got a warm welcome at all ports we called to… particulary in Glasgow at the River Festival
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@wearnicehats wrote:
try http://www.irishrail.ie. If you look closely there are services available to Belfast and Rosslare. Indeed, if you get the enterprise up to Belfast and have a look around you’ll actually find some places with electricity and running water.
I was referring to a high speed rail line.
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@PTB wrote:
I was referring to a high speed rail line.
Wow Irish Rail and High Speed rail line ion the same post or even utterance – you heard it here first folks
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rail tunnel please
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i just saw a documentary on a transatlantic tunnel
http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/engineering/engineering.html
thought it might be ideal for a connection to Britain without the cost or amount of time it takes to bore a tunnel or the whole problem of the weather with a bridge. the fact the a submerged tunnel hasn’t been tried isn’t so comforting but i wonder has anyone considered this?
the other night i was coming into heuston and as i looked at a train on the tracks the whole thing exploded in flames so it doesn’t inspire confidence in IE, the fire brigade took about 10 mins to respond so i wonder what a response time to say the middle of the irish sea would be.
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