Automatic Vehicle Location systems on the Bus Atha Cliath network

I like them, neat & useful, unlike many other pole plantations on OCS.

dc3, A lecturer of mine maintained he worked on a project to pilot the GPS due times on dublin bus and said it was not & could not be implemented because employees went ballistic at the prospect.

He said all buses were fitted with a GPS receiver, under the drivers seat (this was 7 years ago) but thats as far as it got supposedly.

@Peter FitzPatrick wrote:

employees went ballistic at the prospect.

Ridiculous. I’m suddenly in favour of full privitisation.

Aaah the long (and often) promised integrated ticvketing and real time info displays.

Its usually the case for whatever “initaitive” is proposed at Dublin Bus the lads (and lassies) on the ground find some way of ditching it. Remember those unused doors at the centre of the bus…couldnt be used for “safety reasons”. Bendy buses…. cross city routes…. all seem to come a cropper with the unions

I could be wrong but as far as I know, DB rolled out a pilot on the Lucan route for real-time displays but it was so succesfull DoT refused funding to continue the project. They’re working on it again now but none of the buses had GPS receivers or a radio network suitable so they all had to be upgraded.

Im sure the Dublin Transportation Authority will sort all this out when it starts work (sic)

In the interests of accuracy and to represent the ACTUAL position regarding Automatic Vehicle Location systems on the Bus Atha Cliath network some points need clarification.

For the best part of a decade CIE`s Dublin City Services operated one of the most advanced such systems in Europe.
It was known as the AVM (Automatic Vehicle Monitoring) system and was a analogue based precursor to the current swathe of digitized systems.

The AVM system was driven from the vehicle speedometer and relied upon the driver entering waypoint codes at each end of the route.
It was a basic system but was highly functional and gave the Route Controller all the relevant information which was required.

The AVM system functioned well for many years and was only scrapped as it was felt the new digital systems would largely supercede it with less cost and almost zero Driver input required.

Bus Atha Cliath was initially given to understand that the new digital Automatic Vehicle Location (AVL) system would be funded and implimented without delay and therefore the old AVM was removed and the control system resorted to simple Voice communication.

In the interim the Company undertook large scale (successful) trials and proving along the 25 Lucan corridor.
However at some point the issue of TOTAL cost appears to have become a stumbling block and the Department Of Transport appears to have declined to fund the necessary next-level of expansion.
The reasons for this have never been fully explained and have as a result left Bus Atha Cliath in a limbo without ANY functional Location system.

Some points need to be made strongly here in relation to the Staff/Industrial Relations issue.

The operation of the original CIE AVM system was covered by negotiated agreements on “new technology” and as a result operated trouble free over it`s entire service life.
(Indeed so advanced was it,that BBC`s Tomorrows World programme covered it as a ground breaking example of the use of such technology at the time,well before London Transport introduced such systems)

The introduction of the “new” digital AVL system has long ago been agreed,with Conyngham Road operational staff being as yet the only one`s to experience it.

The last company wage deal included a wide ranging clause on “New Technology” which covers just that…a wide ranging amount of elements,most of which have entered service with no disruption.

We should also be careful of ascribing “Miracle” status to any such Automatic systems and experience in other countries would tend to point to caution being required.
TfL in London for example are well behind time with the roll-out of their second generation system with it`s technology partner Siemens AG having to carry out some very costly revisions of its entire technical setup.
The new Digitized systems are NOT cheap either and often require an inordinate level of Software Support to maintain functionality.

Its worth noting that CIE`s AVM was a VERY simple yet functional system which could be maintained on-the-fly and which if it did malfunction did not entail a Bus being taken out of service.
Breakdowns of the newer digi-systems which tend to be integrated with the on board ticket equipment can and do often entail Buses having to be removed from service for attention.

Unfortunately for some,the Bus Atha Cliath workforce are most certainly not responsible for the current delay in ANY of the Bus Service Infrastructural improvements for Dublin.

Whether it be the current Departmental fugue on Integrated Ticketing (BAC standing by with it`s own SmartCard system which could be fully functional in 72 hrs)

The SAME Department that recieved a detailed BAC business plan for 100 new Vehicles and sanctioned the purchase of them then refuses to licence the SAME vehicles for use on those already advised routes (Dept of Transport`s Infrastructural and Licencing sections apparently do NOT inform each other of what`s goin on in their own little worlds)

Just to conclude my response,I am very much aware that Bus Atha Cliath is NOT a perfect entity and has many failing across its operating areas.

However for a commercial State Sponsored Body it has been far in advance of other such entities in how it has attempted to change and adapt to the Public Transport needs of a Capital which surely must rank as the Least Professionally Planned in Europe ?

My 2c worth,over and out !! 🙂

“The likely timescales for this project are as follows:

Late 2007 Award contract
Late 2008 Commence deployment of AVLC
Mid 2009 Commence testing of RTPI services
Late 2009 Complete deployment of AVLC
Early 2011 Complete rollout of RTPI services “

that’s according to Dublin Bus’ web site : Real Time Passenger Information System

I think the first item on the list is drifting already, so even the 2011 date is optimistic….

Probably should have created a new thread for this. Didn’t mean it to be hijacked by transport stuff.

Any chance these posts could be moved Paul?

Alek Smart! I have never heard you be such a positive advocate for someone! Its a revelation :p

Any comment Alek on the culture of ‘going sharp*’ as exposed by primetime a while back. Would the proposed system be able to end this BAC patented pain in the hole?

*Drivers leaving their terminus up to 5 minutes early therfore cocking up the schedule/timetable with the ultimate result of cancelled services and one less run/less work for the drivers during their shift and f*ck the rest of us mugs.:mad: 42B drivers have it down to a fine art in the afternoon/evening.

TommyT,Im not so sure that PrimeTime programme “Exposed” anything really.
To me it really didn`t amount to a hill o beans and was`nt helped by the programmes own admission that the majority of the few departures they sampled did in fact operate on time.

I`m afraid the Public Transport issues confronting BAC and Dublin as a whole are somewhat more serious than merit a fixation with going sharp.

FWIW,the TfL London standard for “On Time” for a similiar route to the Prime Time sample regards anything between “2 Minutes before or up to 5 minutes after the scheduled departure time” as being acceptable and therefore does not incur a penalty for the operator concerned.

Its also worth trawling through some of the UK discussion boards where you will see “going sharp” as a fairly standard topic of complaint.
It`s essentially down to correct supervision coupled with a hi degree of staff motivation.

With a peak vehicle requirement of some 1,000 vehicles and a total operational staff of some 3,000 I would go so far as to say that BAC more than matches the timekeeping norms of the industry as a whole.

But of course its a Pain in The Arse when it happens to YOU and no doubt about it.
All I can say is that some 90% of my departures are On Time and of the remaining 10% those would be split 50/50 between being instructed to depart early to cover a breakdown or other unplanned event or to operate late due to traffic conditions.

I`m afraid that`s the best I,as a hewer of wood and drawer of water,can do for you TommyT and Im sorry but I can`t confirm any secret coven of go-sharpers who huddle in conclave just waiting to pounce each day. 😀

Mind you,those new stops do look COOL don`t they ????

Thanks to Alek for the useful comment on this system

It is a sad situation that, despite the real utility of this type of data to the passenger at any mid route location, it seem that it will be twenty years or so after Brussels that any such system may be available.
Given that so many Dublin Bus services are cross city, and can be very severely delayed – on several days recently my friendly driver had not even hit the city centre by the time for the return trip scheduled from the end of the route was due, this makes many timetables of little practical use. Yet on rail routes, with no private traffic congestion, stations have this type of information, odd is it not?

Our buses are also poorly integrated with other bus routes with no common bus terminals in most areas or suburbs, and more and more passengers use cash payment fares to create more delay, pre purchased tickets are getting rarer.

In my experience the pricing of prepaid tickets isn’t enough in your favour if you tend to do 1 EUR or 1.4 EUR journey’s for it to be worth the hassle of carrying them around and remembering which ticket to use and which is yesterday’s that you should of thrown away and so on.

Notjim raises a VERY important point and one which is difficult to meaningfully address.

The central issue and one which is fundamental to understanding the complex relationship between the Dept of Transport and Bus Atha Cliath and through them,the general commuting public,is that the Dept exercises DIRECT control over BAC CASH Fares.

Ths means that the issue of discounted pre-paid ticketing is one which is at the companys discretion and is an element of commercial freedom available to them.

However,in the past when the Department refused to sanction fare increase applications or reduced levels of year-on-year subvention the company initially moved to first reduce and then remove what was a small level of discount which was available on the old pre-paid ticketing range.

Put simply the sales of pre-paid tickets became the ONLY avenue of raising revenue available to the company and as such it could not be ignored.

The somewhat amazing thing was that the removal of those discounts had NO effect on the sales of the tickets and in some cases sales increased when the pre-paid achieved parity with cash.

However it should be recalled that at that time (1980`s-mid 1990`s) the range of such pre-paid tickets was far less than now and was essentially down to 10 journey tickets which were massively abused and eventually HAD to be withdrawn due to the revenue slippage which was accruing.

Interestingly enough the current Wayfarer TGX system has the capability through it`s Smartcard interface to allow Route-Time or Event Specific discounted fares to be offered with ease.

This is the system which currently sits ticking over in every Bus Atha Cliath vehicle whilst a transfixed Department sits in conclave poking through animal entrails in an attempt to raise the spirits of the elders and find another reason to delay it`s deployment.

The message needs to be understood clearly that much of the stagnation and downright obstructionism which was once the prevail of Trades Unions and assorted ne`er do wells has now passed on to senior civil servants who,to a man/woman are massively reluctant to make anything like a decision.

I watched a re-run of the Fall of Baghdad the other night on SkyNews and as Saddam`s Statue was toppling (Helped by an off-camera US Tank) I found myself wondering where in the confines of Leinster House we would find a similar one……oh well it looks like poor old Archbishop Conyngham will have to suffice… 😮

The new mottoo of the Department of Transport ……”Let them eat (gur) cake” 😮

Alek, why was the 10 journey ticket removed? How was it being abused? I’m rather annnoyed for thinking myself to be more than a tad dim at not being able to find a 10 journey ticket either on the website or in shops, genuinely believing that a transportation company couldn’t be so spectacularly stupid and inflexible as not to have such a method of payment. So much so that you begin to question your own sanity; it’s like the elephant in the room that everyone keeps their head down about. And in fairness, you have complained in the past about Dubliners’ love affair with cash payment – perhaps you can see why?!

Fully agreed dc3 on the need for such stop displays, given the cross-city nature of routes. It’s all I thought about whilst waiting for 45 minutes during the week for a bus that’s supposed to come every 10 minutes. The grand total of two out of five scheduled buses arrived in my time standing there, one of which sailed by full. Indeed last week was appalling all-round for buses, even on quiet traffic mornings. A woman waiting for an 18 at my bus stop had been standing there since 8.10 – her bus arrived at 9.17. Approximately four scheduled buses should have arrived in that time. With such unreliability, it makes mornings very stressful most days, and absolutely infuriating on the worst days. Something which is not helped by drivers who sail by stops with a third of standing room occupied.

Of course these are just typical complaints, and not all the fault of BAC, but I just needed to vent after a terrible transport week. That’s better.

You probably have noticed Graham how the current Mag Card Ticket system is virtually collapsed.
There cannot be a driver now who isnt totally fed up with the amount of whistling,chirruping,ringing and screeching whjich the Validators do when a less than pristine card is inserted.
Added to this is the frustration of watching a customer peel off a BRAND NEW card from a value-pack and see it malfunction too.

Some of the problems can be due to retailers not rotating stock and returning unsold stock in strict rotation.

However one thing is certain and that is that ANY new contactless system cannot come fast enough.

At the current time there are in excesds of 50 seperate styles of pre-paid ticket available on the BAC network.
This includes Bus only,Bus/Dart,Bus/Dart/Commuter Rail, and several permutations of the foregoing with Luas added on.

In addition there are Mainline Rail tickets which CAN have a Bus Atha Cliath element encoded or stamped at the point of sale.
However the old 10 journey (Withdrawn well over 5 years ago now) was simply far too amenable to misuse with the same Mag Stripe misfires as we see today.
The accepted convention was for the driver to write a journey on which then totalled the card electronically.
Many users would simply erase the inked journeys and rely on pressure of peak time business to ensure any other driver merely got a swift glimpse of the ticket.

There remains a lot to be said for the old fashioned manually clicked ticket which if used correctly is both clear and simple to use.
However it`s not digital or modern which means it cannot be considered for use…. 😀

As for Late running and non-appearing buses………..what can be said…?
0755 Route 11 departure ex Kilmacud arriving at Bird Avenue Clonskeagh 0905.
Then a further 10 minutes to reach Whitebeam Rd Clonskeagh only to spend a further 10 minutes admiring the two silver cars parked on the large expanse of grass verge approaching the Whitebeam Bus shelter.

The local Authority here has just spent a considerable amount of time and money repairing the pedestrian lights here with huge amounts of tunnelling and digging to relay new cabling et al….

Not one of the Great Engineering Professionals bothered to consider the enormous benefits which would accrue from slicing a 5.0 long X 1.5 metre wide strip off the grass verge to allow City Bound buses and other traffic to get by on the INSIDE of the incredible queue of traffic waiting to turn Right into Beaver Row.

It would appear that most of these Proffessionals are blind to reality and most certainly do not use the Number 11 route for their daily travel….if in fact they use public transport at all. 😡

There remains a lot to be said for the old fashioned manually clicked ticket which if used correctly is both clear and simple to use.
However it`s not digital or modern which means it cannot be considered for use….

very true-nothing wrong with the old Dutch strip kart card system and the driver with his/her little stampy thingamajig-quicker than the BAC card reader any day.

Where’s all this talk of cross city routes coming from? They make up a ridiculously small minority of the route network. E.G. why does nearly every bus serving the NE suburbs have to terminate in the NE of the city centre?-it’s a decent hike up to Camden St. or wherever if you are coming from the Malahide Road. The shafting of BAC by successive politicians and mandarins aside the lack of vision within or communication to the punters of WHY the service is stagnating is as big a pain as the reality on the ground

Winnipeg has the lowest-tech system I’ve seen yet ….

No tickets unless you want to get on another bus within 90 minutes in which case you ask for a transfer when getting on and they give you a piece of paper that is torn across to validate the time it can be used to….

a monthly pass is simply a piece of light card with a pictorial design on it….

no electronics on the bus to go wrong / malfunction

Hmmm,sounds quite respectable Paul….however…there is one drawback……..What do the Winnipeg Transport/Technology/IT consultancy firms do for business….?

If we examine the spending patterns on Irish Public Transport infrastructural programmes we tend to find a constantly increasing spend on Research/Consultancy services.

The Comptroller and Auditor General brushed ever so lightly against this in his examination of the RPA`s €40 Million + spend on the “Integrated Ticketing” non-event.

It really will come down to following the paper trail and perhaps discovering some embarrassing payments……or maybe some things are best left alone…?? 🙁

Sorry Alek, I don’t quite get your explanation for the failing 10-journey ticket – what does the driver “writing a journey on which then totalled the card electronically” mean, and the patron “erasing” it?
Given the 10-journey mag stripe ticket worked the same as the others currently in use, I don’t understand the difference. Even if a dated ticket was issued to counter the dodgy technology, it’d be something.

I think the demise of the 10 journey ticket was the worst possible decision. The two journeys tickets are pointless.
Why not go with an Oyster system as in London – too expensive?

I really liked the system in New York when I lived there: it was so simple. Basically you have a fare card that contains credit, you stick it in a slot on the bus or subway and credit is removed, obviously we would have to have more than one slot since our fare structure is more complex. If you add 5 usd at once you get 6 usd credit, or some such, incentivising the card. If you used your card on the subway you could use it on a bus within 90 (?) minutes for free, there were a number of such transfer possibilities. How hard would this be?

@GrahamH wrote:

Sorry Alek, I don’t quite get your explanation for the failing 10-journey ticket – what does the driver “writing a journey on which then totalled the card electronically” mean, and the patron “erasing” it?
Given the 10-journey mag stripe ticket worked the same as the others currently in use, I don’t understand the difference. Even if a dated ticket was issued to counter the dodgy technology, it’d be something.

He meant that when a card reader failed, it was customary for the driver to write the route number, time, etc into a space on the 10 journey ticket. This would then often render the magstripe totally useless for subsequent journeys due to the pressure applied by the pen, (sometimes with the driver’s leg on the underside to make matters worse)

It’s been a long time since i used the 10 journey tickets, but this happened to me a number of times. Whatever about potential fraud, it severely slowed boarding time when lots of peoples’ cards had to be manually checked, it held up both ‘queues’ at the entrance of the bus.

Also, in theory the ink could be removed, allowing the same ticket be used multiple times. In practice i’m not sure it’d be worth the effort.

Thanks igy.

Excuse the ignorance, but how did these differ from fraud with current tickets? Like the five-day or seven-day for example. Why couldn’t the 10-journey be dated? So even if they did corrupt, additional use of the card by most people would be negligible. Or why can’t the five-day simply be made the same as say €1.60 x 10?