The Western Quays

@Devin wrote:

PDLL, I have had enough of you. You are a drama queen.

Bulldozergirl once managed to block garethace’s 9,000-word monologues by stuffing her thread with pictures 😀 – https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=2917&highlight=bulldozergirl – so maybe if mostly pictures are put on here PDLL will shut up.

I think it is largely accepted that in the history of human ideas, theories, methods, concepts and approaches have been born out of arguments and counter-arguments. A sheet of metal can only really take on a usefullness after it has been beaten, battered, and moulded into something by a hammer and heat – an idea can only take on life or meaning after it has been beaten by words and moulded into shape under the heat of argument and counter-argument. If that doesn’t happen, the idea remains a blind dogma. If the presentation of arguments and counter-arguments displeases you Devin, that is singularly unfortunate – I am of the belief that internet fora are based on the democratic principle of equal voices where ideas can be expressed and challenged as necessary. Perhaps, then, it would be useful to know what the function of the forum is: is it to present architectural photographs, is it to make some timid passive informative observations, or is it to engage in critical discussions on where architecture and urban planning is going in Ireland from the architectural and sociological perspective. If it is the former, then I warmly welcome the pictures just posted – they certainly illuminate the thread. If it is the latter, I hope those pictures stimulate further discussion which hopefully you will constructively contribute to.

@Devin wrote:

Sorry if you think my comments are unfair,

It just doesn’t help to 1. antagonise other members as it gets us nowhere, and 2. (more importantly) suggest that other members be stifled either because of an opinion they hold or the way the present it – even if they do get up your nose 🙂
I find PDLL’s argument and presentation of it as valid as anyone else’s – even if I don’t ‘quite’ agree with him…

Not to digress too much, but just on the post-colonial hangover thing, and how Georgian architecture and Georgian Dublin in general in the 1960s and 70s was supposedly undervalued if not systematically attacked because of its provenance – where exactly is the evidence of this? Sure 18th century heritage, indeed all built heritage was undervalued at the time, but are there any express examples of buildings being knocked etc because they stood as symbols of ‘oppression’?

Or was it more of a culture at the time, a view imbued in the planning and political system that combined with an ignorance of the value of older stock caused so much to be lost? Just it’s very easy to say in a sweeping fashion, as is always said, that Georgian buildings were ‘hated’ for what they stood for – but where’s the evidence of this?

If it ever did exist, certainly times have changed. I was always struck by the RTÉ corporate promotion that ran in 2000, which showed beautifully shot sequences of urban and rural Ireland over the course of its two minutes, with images of the broadcaster’s services superimposed over the various landscapes. And at the very end, the final shot was a graphic saying ‘We are Irish’ which then cut to a woman holding a baby standing at the head of Upper Mount Street with all of its Georgian splendour stretching into the distance behind.
A very deliberate move. and very effective at that.

Yeah I think an IAP to deal with the quays once the current ones are completed (!?) would be in order.

Does anyone know how high the storage/fermenting silos in the Guinness Brewery are. As a guestimate, I would reckon about the height of a 7 storey building, possibly higher. The western quays would benefit greatly from the out-of-city-centre re-location of the Guinness Brewery and the construction of a cluster of appropriately designed office buildings on the site – ie buildings more befitting the centre of a capital city in a post-industrial revolution age. Indeed, given the height and sheer ugliness of the industrial architecture that currently occupies the site, there would even be great difficult in opposing a few high-rise buildings on the site. I am surprised, indeed, that Guiness hasn’t even mooted the suggestion of selling the site, knowing the value of the land – given traffic difficulties etc, one wonders how economical it is to have a city-centre location for such an industrial plant, although maybe its proximity to the docks answers that.

Dublin wouldnt be Dublin if the brewery was moved imo – its more than the physical, its the smell….

would have no problem with a mixed use of the space – offices and residential and commerical would be good. Indeed, I would agree – some of the industrial buidlings on the site could be nicely re-invented.

Here are some pictures of a fantastic example of re-invented (or renovated) industrial architecture in Vienna:

and some more

What makes me wonder is if there is a good strip of ‘developable’ land along the quay side of the Guinness site, why hasn’t Guinness itself exploited its potential. Not sure I would agree with the sentiments that glorify the smell of the brewery. Sounds like the peculiar sentimentalization of polution to me. I am sure that Dublin would still be Dublin without the smell, in the same way that the narrow streets of Galway are still the narrow streets of Galway without the medieval pig shit and human piss flowing down the gutters.

Oh I don’t know PDLL- I’d take the smell of the brewery over the smell of manure any day. I know very few people who find the smell unappealing, though I do know one person who disliked it so much he moved to London.
As for Guinness’s reasons for not developing, I haven’t the faintest idea. Perhaps there was little incentive in the days of development doldrums, and then when land values started to shoot up they decided to sit and wait. It must still be rising in that area, I’d have thought.

Lex,
There seems to be a strip of land about the width of the Liffey immediately behind the boundary (see the google map above) that is ripe for development, moreso when you consider that the traffic will eventually be reduced along this stretch (see Devin’s DCC extract) and the trucks that park there routinely will be removed. No doubt this strip could be widened if the site layout were to be rationalised internally; quite possible as most of the noteworthy buildings are further up the hill.
There could be a problem with views southward over the industrial land, but this might be offset by the sunshine. 🙂
I’d also like to see more of a plaza created in front of Heuston Stn- some sort of square through which runs the Luas rather than the messy junction that currently occupies the ground.
There could be an argument on the quayfront for buildings higher than the standard quayside 4 storeys too, though I’m not suggesting towers! And this would be subject to their deference to the setting of the station itself. Any shadow would be cast over the river, and they’d have the benefit of views over the Croppy Acre.
If not privately developed for mixed use, I see no reason why Guinness couldn’t build a decent hotel instead- it would be close to different modes of transport and the range of amenities in the western part of the city- their own Storehouse (number 1 in the league), IMMA, Kilmainham Gaol, Collins Barracks, Phoenix Park, etc.
This is all off the top of my head though and it’s a year since I last walked that stretch of the quays. Another visit might make me think differently…

EDIT: I’ve just remembered a development in Cork (no doubt you’re familiar!) that won some sort of prize last year, where a series of buildings (3-4 storey?) was set almost perpendicular to the river with higher ones behind. Something like that might work, though I think the Cork site was deeper and shorter (i.e. not as elongated as the Guinness strip).
Do you know the one I’m thinking of?

@Devin wrote:

Anybody know what that gate with parapets is towards the background of that picture?