The Quays

I have an idea, May be ga-ga, but could the boardwalk not make a loop to the opposite quay and back again so that we can sit and ponder the administration of justice over a cup of tea or coffee?

Whats wrong with the boardwalk in front of the four courts?

You would have to remove the balustrade that runs along the quay walls and it’s probably the most beautiful part of the quays in Dublin.
They’re almost certainly protected and it would mean destroying two large chunks of it and then having seats along the length of it, which wouldn’t work either.
I’m nearly sure this feature is on both sides of the River so switching sides would not help.
This is what the quay wall looks like. I think/hope balustrade is the right word:
http://www.irish-architecture.com/buildings_ireland/dublin/northcity/quays/inns/4courts_lge.html

the boardwalk could be added without affecting the balustrade. the boardwalk level is below the pavement level normally s the visual effect on the balustrade from the oppostie bank would be minimal.

Without getting into the effects on the ballustrading surely there is enough space to enhance the perdestrian envionment along Inns Quay without intervening with a boardwalk as this area accomodates on-street parking. Which if it were to be removed would provide a space more than equivelent to a stretch of boardwalk; this could also be done on Upper Ormond Quay. Arran Quay in contrast would require a boardwalk.

That seems to be part of what’s planned. They are phasing out the on-street parking along the quays, almost all of which is around that Four Courts area. It will leave a space that is the best part of four metres wide when you include the existing pavement. I really don’t see how the balustrade would not be very seriously affected by a boardwalk.
For a start, you would have to remove two chunks and considering it makes a perfect rectangle of two bridges and two quays, it would at the very least damage that continuity.
The balustrade would make a very imperfect barrier between a boardwalk and a pavement as when you looked through it from the street, all you would be seeing is the back of a load of seats and probably a lot of rubbish shoved in under.

To say the least – really an truly, a Boardwalk on the most special part of the quays?!
Whatever about the more pedestrian stretches of the Liffey, we can do without that grotesque heap of builders yard juck tacked onto the quay walls outside the Four Courts thank you very much.

The distinctive cream-balustered balustrading is what makes this area:

Obviously a Boardwalk is not proposed for here, and never should it be.
As TP says, there’s ample room for pavement widening with the elimination on-street parking – evident above.

The south quay has standard granite walls.

I am sure a boardwalk isn’t intended infront of the four courts, it would spoil the affect and anyway there is lots of room for a widened footpath.

you can’t boardwalk the south quays, it would be in continual shadow and therefore dank, damp and horrible.

we should see a definite change in how the quays develop when the dublin port tunnel comes online. seem to recall talk of banning hgv’s from the quays in so far as is possible. with the new framework plan and the creation of new markets on the M50 hopefully a significant change will be seen in the city.

when is the port tunnel opening anyway? this year or next? so much is happening, it’s hard to keep track.

I would’nt be in favour of adding a boardwalk in front of the Four Courts (or the Custom House), nor removing the ballustrades. This would be outright vandalism. More importantly, I think the council & co should concentrate on the condition of the buildings along the riverside from Hueston Station to the docks . There are a lot of shoddy and unsubstantial buildings still adorning the Liffey quays.

A boardwalk past Ormond Quays seems pointless to me. There just isnt the pedestrain activity to merit it (although I appreciate there is a degree of chicken and egg scenario here). The CC would be better placed concentrating on getting people up to Smithfield and Heuston along the Luas line then investing in a redundant Boardwalk. The existing B is a nice feature in the city centre but its no substitute for proper predestrain space along the quays and investment in new shops and businesses farther up river.

Could spend the money painting those bloody flagpoles providing some decent public lighting.

I’m not even sure the Boardwalk should extend down the length of Ormond Quay. The less populated each section becomes, the more unsavoury the characters frequenting it.
The amount of anti-social activity they attract is beyond belief.
On two separate occasions in the last fortnight, I have seen people urinating through the railings during the afternoon.
Every bum and junkie congregates on Eden Quay and people skulling cans and bottles of beer are more common than coffee drinkers.
The Ormond Quay extension would become a/ a waiting room for gougers waiting for a court apperance and b/ outdoor smoking areas for the people who spend all night and morning drinking in the early houses along the quays and Chancery Street.

Where are the Gardai?

I don’t mean to sound snobbish but I think Ireland has to have one of the highest rates of socially dysfunctional people in Europe.

Couldn’t agree more, any country with four per cent unemployment while 50,000 jobs are unfilled is highly dysfunctional.
When you have the best part of 10,000 junkies trudging around the streets on any given day, you are going to get a lot of antisocial behaviour.

Where did you get that figure from Kefu?

Agreed about not extending the Boardwalk beyond Grattan Bridge, it would not only be practically pointless but visually damaging too.
It would seem the aim of the existing Boardwalks is essentially to ease pedestrian congestion in the busiest part of the city in the short/medium term, and provide a decent seating area as an added bonus.
In the longer term I would like to see them removed, and the quays given back to the people once/if the city’s traffic problems are sorted.

Agreed about increased Garda activity needed around the Eden Quay area especially – it is the only area in the city I do not feel safe in day or night, so much so I’d elect to use Talbot St as an east-west route anyday over that quay.

The unemployment rate was 4.3% last year: Ref: http://www.indexmundi.com/ireland/unemployment_rate.html
There are actually 13,000 heroin addicts in Dublin but on the basis that not all of them are in the city centre (although it often seems like that) I rounded the figure down. Ref: http://www.finegael.ie/fine-gael-news.cfm/NewsID/22150/action/detail/year/2005/month/7/level/page/aid/186/
No exact figures are available for unfilled jobs but 50,000 isn’t even the tip of the iceberg.
I have every sympathy for an unemployed person in the West of Ireland or along the Border where there may not actually be any jobs but there is little excuse for being jobless in Dublin.
“In 2000, it was estimated that there were 60,000 unfilled jobs in the Irish economy and that Ireland needed to attract 270,000 employees into the workforce over the next six years to sustain even modest levels of economic growth.” Ref: http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/internet/inimr-ri.nsf/en/gr107272e.html

This boardwalk really has gone to their heads, hasn’t it?

Dick Gleeson is generally very clued in, so I’m disappointed he’s mooting it.

As said already, you absolutely couldn’t put a boardwalk on Inns Quay (Four Courts quay).
That whole area – with the Four Courts and its flanking classical stone bridges – is the essence of Dublin.

Not only could you not put a boardwalk between those bridges, but you couldn’t put one leading up to them from the other side either. So no boardwalk west of Grattan Bridge then. And no boardwalk between the Four Courts’ west bridge and the next bridge down, Mellowes (aka Queen Maev) Bridge, which is the most drop dead beautiful of all the Liffey’s old stone bridges. Then the next two stretches of quay are probably too short for a boardwalk, thanks to the Calatrava bridge being stupidly shoved in between two existing bridges, destroying the regular spacing of bridges on the Liffey 😡 (but that’s another story).

So that just leaves the long stretch outside Collins Barracks Museum. A boardwalk might be ok here. This quay is so long that the boardwalk wouldn’t even have to come near the bridges – thereby obviating the boardwalk’s fundamental design flaw: that it crashes into bridges.

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Mellowes (Queen Maev) Bridge – you absolutely couldn’t put a boardwalk anywhere near this gem.

Obvious point here but after Grattan Bridge, at low tide, the river stinks, there’s not enough water beyound Grattan except at high tide to made the walk pleasureable, If they build boardwalk on to Heuston, they will have to put in a weir.

And wasn’t that the main reason the new Custom House was built further downstream, because ships kept hitting a huge rock outside the old Custom House at Grattan (Essex) Bridge?

I wonder will the weir ever come about? On the one hand you would be upsetting the natural flow and beauty of the river; on the other, the area around Heuston looks (and smells) particularly disgusting at low tide and something needs to be done about it.

Has that river taxi service for the Liffey started yet?

ive seen the boat plying the waves down at the IFSC but its not operating for paying passengers yet . Looks well but it seems that there’s no outside seating so passengers will all be cooped up inside.

Although slightly unrelated, has anyone noticed the distinct lack of water in the Liffey at low tide during this recent dry spell? When passing over the Liffey on the LUAS at Heuston the past few mornings, the liffey is looking more like a small stream with mud and trollies and cones everywhere (and a nasty smell!). Maybe the rain forecast this weekend will alleviate things somewhat.

Yes – I had reason to wait about on Grattan Bridge for a while about two months ago, and was astonished at just how low the Liffey can actually go – the western side of the bridge’s waters were virtually non-existant!
All that was left were pools of water amongst acres of mud plains and shoopping trollies and all the rest.
It was extraordinary, not to mention fascinating just to rest on the side and spot all the various ‘items’ on the river bed – has anyone ever seen it this low before? The gulls were having a great time on the river bed, eating all forms of life 🙂

When does the Four Courts stretch of balustrading date from does anyone know? Always assumed around 1810-30 due to its Regencyish appearance….
And when were the balusters painted? A criminal offence were stone be painted over today, but you have to admit it works exceedingly well :). 1930s perhaps?
It’s a great pity more of the quays weren’t fitted with these, indeed indicative of the lack of attention paid to Dublin’s quays throughout the centuries, with the exception of Ormonde’s move.

@Graham Hickey wrote:

When does the Four Courts stretch of balustrading date from does anyone know? Always assumed around 1810-30 due to its Regencyish appearance….

Yeah, it would seem to: The two almost identical stone bridges to the east and west of the Four Courts were built at about the same time (circa 1815), and as the balustrade on Inns Quay links the balustrade of these two bridges, it must date from that time also. The bridges and balustrade make a setpiece with the Four Courts.

I’m nearly sure the balusters are of cast iron.

@Graham Hickey wrote:

It’s a great pity more of the quays weren’t fitted with these

I have say I like the way the balustrade appears only along the quay in front of Four Courts.

@Devin wrote:

I’m nearly sure the balusters are of cast iron.

I thiunk you’re correct

Another pic of the balustrade.
It has a beautiful deep roll-moulding at the base of the balustrade on the the inside wall – seen here.

They didn’t do things by halves back then!

there’s definately a copy of this in Bolton St library, as part of a compendium I believe. I think that ENFO have a copy as well.

Don’t think so- not really sure. Its part of a series of suggestions for urban renewal in the city. The Heuston plan called for a monumental entrance into the city – very Parisian. Its can be found in the planning section of the library.

There was an interesting tidbit in the Irish Times today saying that planning is being sought for a seven-storey 99-bed hotel on a site at Ormond Quay, Charles St West and Ormond Square.
This derelict site has been a real sore point for the City Council for years as it’s an obvious blackspot, which is all-too visible from the City Manager’s balcony.
Anyway, good to see something is finally happening. It certainly has the space to do something really daring. I can’t see that happening but it’s one of those sites where anything would be better than what’s there.
The developers are Pierse Contracting if anyone did have access to the models/plans.

It looks over scaled and is a poor relation to the design that the same architectural practice submitted to win a competition on the site in 1999. Seven Soreys at this location would obliterate the vista of the Four Courts Dome from the Lower Quays.

If the CC were so concerned as to its derelict state then why did thye leave it in this condition for so long. It was only sold last year…maybe the year before. Its a disgrace it should have been left like that.

Still movement at last. I hope its a better design than the Ormond Hotel. I agree that its a significant site that needs a sensitive design. All the muck thats been put up along the Quays over the years. Can we please have something worth talking about

@StephenC wrote:

Can we please have something worth talking about

For the right reasons, of course. 🙂

Crestfield, I think it would have been a nice idea but the expense involved could not be justified so soon after actually finishing the line.
Considering that it is a Luas only street, you could still integrate the Croppies Acre and Museum.
However, i’d say the real issue in not opening up that area more, especially the park is because of a fear of anti-social activity.
The eventual aim should be for an open public space running from the quays up through Collins Barracks with permanent access to Arbour Hill rather than sending people around and down Montpelier Hill.
It’s actually shameful that the Luas (which 95 per cent serves the southside) only moves on to the northside here and then doesn’t even provide ease of access for the residents of Stoneybatter (the only significant northside population who get any use out of it) who are forced to walk the long way around instead.

Here’s one interesting idea for Luas particularly for this park area you are referring to:
http://www.tramway.paris.fr/evenements/L4.asp

Thats a really great approach Kefu.

It’s a bit gimmicky but almost to be expected in a city, which puts in a temporary beach along the banks of its river.
One of the many beauties of a city like Paris is that it is so dependent on tourism that beautification projects take on a significance that is rare in major world cities.

Yes at Rialto station- maybe not as manicured though

I think the idea of extending the Croppy Acres and incorporating the Luas line is a great idea. This park is just a waste of space at the moment (apart from the graves of course). There is regularly talk of a new plan for the park (with Anna Livia taking up residence). Have yet to see anything though. Perhaps the HARP project office in DCC have something up their sleeves.

Yes, although less manicured, the Rialto section looks great I think and a worthy idea for the Croppy area.
The park’s in a sorry state – a handy clear space for the television coverage of the President’s journey from the Áras to the Castle for inauguration but that’s about it 🙂

The park is very underused thinkin about how close it is to the museum.

I like the image kefu put up that would be great my only worry is that the grass might attract urban cowboys and be dangerous to the trams

There was an interesting tidbit in the Irish Times today saying that planning is being sought for a seven-storey 99-bed hotel on a site at Ormond Quay, Charles St West and Ormond Square.

The Irish Times are way behind with that one. A planning application for a seven-storey mixed-use building on that site was lodged last December (Ref. 5882/04) and, after going through further information and amendments, was finally granted permission in June and has now gone to appeal.

After waiting so long for a new building on this site, the approved (seven-storey) building is disastrous unfortunately. Disastrous in its effect on what is probably the most important view in the city: The Four Courts dome rising above the Georgian-scale terraces on the quays.
It’s the usual thing you’re seeing now; someone wanting three or so more stories higher than the surrounding building heights (because land values have increased so much, I suppose). That’s fine if the area can take a bit of diversity in the skyline, but definitely not here on the quayfront beside the Four Courts.

The Inns Quay – Ormond Quay section certainly seem to be subject to major changes if the Ormond Hotel and this new second hotel development go ahead.
The Ormond replacement will alter the view of the terrace dramatically, and if the other seven storey goes ahead it will diminish the ‘wow’ factor the courts impress on the viewer.
From an economic point of view, does no one realise that the hotel sector is going through particularly difficult trading conditions at the moment? The sheer quantity of rooms now available and also in the pipeline is impacting on occupancy rates, and thus on profitability. While the jurys closure of two hotels in Ballsbridge is an unique case in terms of land values, they were trading poorly in any case and should act as a warning to those thinking of building hotels in an already crowded market.
Apart from the seven storey hotel proposed, hopefully the owners of the Ormond will realise the folly of destroying a hotel of heritage in favour of bland bland bland yellow pack architecture. There is still time for the owners to prevent a major mistake of destroying the Ormond. I am still suprised the demolition was allowed through by the Council and ABP. The worst heritage decision in over a decade.

Regarding the Ormond, you could find there is a big campaign to save it coming closer to the time of the demolition.
For whatever reason, many conservationists here – Green Party included – wait until the planning process is long complete before starting their lobbying. All it does is provide great ammunition for the likes of Minister Dick Roche, who’ll claim that the conservationists want to have it every way.

In fairness An Taisce objected to the demolition of this hotel as part of the planning process but lost. I think its an incredibly bad decision but then again the Quays are littered with incredibly bad planning decisions. The exisiting building, or the facade at least is a fine building which could easily accommodate a sensitive addition above. The new building is incredibly bad… It is worth noting that the CC have requested a redesign of the new Blooms hotel in Temple Bar because it feel its appropriate to retain its older facade, The original submission for Blooms was very similar to the Ormond.

The Ormond should’nt be demolished….it’s facade should be at least retained. This is an act of vandalism. The new replacement looks awful. The integrity of this part of the quays will be lost. Jimmy Joyce is rolling in his grave.

@GregF wrote:

The new replacement looks awful. .

Do you have any pictures of the proposed development?

Can be seen on previous thread Post No16

https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=3440&page=1&pp=25&highlight=Ormond+Hotel

@Morlan wrote:

Do you have any pictures of the proposed development?

You’re too quick Stephen 🙂

As posted by Devin on 15th October 2004, 03:17 AM

Its put me off my lunch

Looks like Devin lost sleep over it, it was the worst decision I can remember ABP making for a long time; they are usually a lot more careful.

Thanks guys.. god it really is awful isn’t it 😡

Really the more you think about it, the more it seems the ABP decision may have been very different had that facade its original windows intact.

Its a bizarre decision with or without the PVC windows.

Most certainly – just that the building would have had a much greater apparent value with original windows and, well, wouldn’t have been so horribly ugly to look at when considering its fate.

Perhaps it’s naive to think that the discriminating heads in APB didn’t factor this into consideration, but you’d wonder all the same.

@Thomond Park wrote:

Looks like Devin lost sleep over it,

An Taisce appealed. but it wasn’t me

@Ireland.com wrote:

Man injured in Dublin city stabbing incident
From:ireland.com
Wednesday, 7th September, 2005

A man is in a serious condition in hospital this evening after being stabbed in Dublin city centre.

The man was attacked on Bachelor’s Quay boardwalk shortly after midday. He is said to have suffered several stab wounds.

He was later brought to the Mater Hospital where his condition was described as serious.

Gardai have sealed off the boardwalk between the Ha’penny Bridge and O’Connell Street Bridge while a technical examination of

Boardwalks

Funnily enough (or not) I came accross town through Temple Bar specifically to walk the length of the boardwalks (on my way back to work at Irish Life). Made it up to Bacholars walk and was stopped by a Gardai. If I had of been five minutes earlier I could have seen it all or even been a victim. Only the day before a colleague told me that whilst having his lunch on the Eden quay boardwalk two gentlemen (gearbags) were beating the head off each other. What’s to be done here ???

Rustycogs, you’ll find the two people involved probably knew each other so I think you’re safe enough.
The whole of the Bachelor’s Quay boardwalk was cordoned off this afternoon – it actually looked rather fitting.
The Water Unit were also there searching around in the Liffey, which is obviously where the knife ended up.

I can see the signs now. “Don’t mind the knife wielding junkie’s, they only stab each other”.

😀 (even as serious as it is)

@kefu wrote:

it actually looked rather fitting.

What do you mean Kefu?

While it is highly probable it was an altercation between two ‘friends’, as most stabbings tend to be, it nonetheless exhibits to a tee the nature of activity on these two Boardwalks: Bachelors Walk and Eden Quay in particular. If this doesn’t spur the Gardaí into action nothing will.

I just mean that it was only a matter of time before there was a violent incident on the Boardwalk. As many of us have frequently commented, it is a gathering ground for junkies, winos and in general the worst that Dublin has to offer. And the level of policing is abysmal.

The Green Party has called for cars to be banned from College Green and the quays in Dublin in an effort to create a “pedestrian-friendly” capital city.

Presenting a five-year “vision” for Dublin yesterday, the party said the city centre could be “one of the best civic spaces in Europe” if a number of measures were introduced, including lower speed-limits, wider pavements, and reduced access for goods vehicles.

The Greens also want the joining of the two existing Luas lines with a connecting line that would continue to Broadstone bus depot.

Announcing the proposals during “Car-Free Day” yesterday, Green Party leader Trevor Sargent said: “We believe that the people of Dublin are ready to support such changes as they have long benefited from the wisdom of giving road space back to pedestrian and public transport.”

He was speaking at College Green amid busy afternoon traffic – proof that Car-Free Day had been largely ignored by the city’s commuters.

Dublin City Council opted against participating in the Europe-wide event, which was renamed by the Government this year as “In Town Without My Car Day”.

Minister for the Environment Dick Roche, who commuted by bus yesterday rather than using his car, told The Irish Times he was “disappointed” by the overall response to the event. He said he knew people viewed the day as a “token” but “it’s an important token nonetheless”.

He admitted a lack of investment in public transport had made it difficult to get people out of their cars. “The challenge is to give people better-quality public transport at affordable prices,” Mr Roche added.

Minister of State at the Department of Transport Ivor Callely was more upbeat about the event, however, saying both Car-Free Day and European Mobility Week had been “marginal success stories”.

Mr Callely, who commuted by bike yesterday, said a specially erected public transport information tent at the top of Grafton Street had attracted numerous visitors, adding “people should not lose sight of the fact that there are an array of services now available”.

Members of the Dublin Cycling Campaign marked yesterday’s occasion by waving chequered flags at traffic stuck on the quays in a mocking gesture.

Luas operators Connex said they saw no noticeable increase in passenger numbers yesterday.

Bus Éireann, which provided free off-peak services in Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford, said customer numbers had risen in some locations.

Joe Humphreys

© The Irish Times