The impact of the Car on Irish Architecture
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Originally posted by garethace
I think people are drving out to the pheriphery more and more to work etc, if this is the case.
I friend of mine who uses public transport going into town, has told me that the rush hour coming out in the evening can be much more severe than rush hour going in in mornings. Is that true?
Yes. The problem regarding congestion is not caused by people living in Dublin as much as the ones coming in from outside the M50.
http://www.platform11.org/dublin_rail.html
There is fairly high public transport, walking, cycling usage within Dublin city itself. We can thank the British for designing a compact European city. We can thank the Irish developers, planners, county councillors, brown envelopes and endless free car give-a-ways on RTE for the rest. The public transport system in the GDR needs to be redeveloped from the outside in towards the centre and not from the centre out. Sure, higher density planning will make a huge difference but the real congestion is primairly manifested in these new housing developments on the outskirts of small towns in the midlands. Building an Metro to Dublin Airport for several billion will do nothing to solve this. Park n Rides and an extended DART will.
absolutely. but if there was higher densities then there wouldn’t be this push to live in the towns in the midlands. lot more people working and liuving in the city- more money for the centre and making it more vibrant with people being there all the time.
Originally posted by FIN
absolutely. but if there was higher densities then there wouldn’t be this push to live in the towns in the midlands. lot more people working and liuving in the city- more money for the centre and making it more vibrant with people being there all the time.You have hit the nail on the head in regard to forward planning and what needs to be done next and ahead of everything else.
The only problem is what do we do with the tens of thousands of long distance commuters?
http://www.onbusiness.ie/2004/0223/carbon.html
We are in financial trouble if this isn’t sorted out. Because the EU will collect Carbon taxes if more sustainable commuting options aren’t provided.
Originally posted by Diaspora
We are in financial trouble if this isn’t sorted out. Because the EU will collect Carbon taxes if more sustainable commuting options aren’t provided.how much are we talking about? and what do u mean by sustainable transport???? electric buses comes into my mind when u say that…
€1bn p/a from industry and I’m not sure how much on car emissions. But they have to fall by 35% by 2010 so far they are only down by 10% over the past 14 years. (Most of this is put down to better engine technology.)
What I mean by sustainable transport would be using the car as little as possible and using
1. Public Transport
2. Cycling or walking where possible.Where possible being the important expression as for site visits or weekends away or doing the shopping it’s not realistic to expect people not to use the car.
Gas buses work quite well, do you remember the oil strike in London in 2001? No petrol no Diesel but plenty of gas which is also cleaner.
yeah! gas works well.
i would be a subscriber for electricity still.
and a billion. jeez didn’t think it would be that much.“electric buses “
Electric vehicles are usually less energy efficient than diesel and just because the emissions dont happen in the tailpipe does not mean they do not exist at the power station. Ireland has a relatively dirty electricity generating mix. A billion windfarms, on sliding bogs, are still to come.
Despite claims to the contrary, I do not know of any comparable city to Dublin, with the same sprawl, that has managed the car.
PS Bergen is not comparable to Dublin
PPS Waited 30 minutes for the bus to work this morning, should have been three in that time.
Originally posted by dc3
“electric buses “. Ireland has a relatively dirty electricity generating mix.
The cost of converting Moneypoint to a Gas fired turbine system was put at as high as 800m by an industry insider.
I don’t know the exact figure of Moneypoint’s emmision percentage of CO2 gases but I think it was approximately 30% of the national total.
Moneydrainpoint would be pretty apt name if these figures are bourne out.
Between Moneypoint and the Carlow commuter group there is a lot that needs to be changed.
The next time you Harney whinging about ‘single mothers’ ask yourself how much are you paying in taxes for servicing one off houses and how much in un-necessary carbon taxes?
We have a lot to learn from places like Denmark and Holland. 🙂
gas electricity generating power stations produce bugger all emissions. i know ..am doing one at the moment.
but ok we don’t like electricity well what about hydrogen?anyway back to the architecture. the car is certainly shaping the spread of these horrible, horrible housing estates. more and more people wanting this utopia of a house in the country and then moving into an estate in a small town to achieve something of this. how i don’t know but i’m not going to judge what average joe punter likes.
it is easier to travel( with the car but not the resultant traffic jams) so at the moment there is no real need for higher densities and therefore our backward looking people are stating that there is no need for it and would ruin the look of our “beautiful” low rise inner cities.
the new cities across the lake at welwyn amongst others i believe tried to cater for the advent of the car. but they tried to keep the cars out of the centre and have lots and lots of open space. i am interested to know if this is a general view held by all and is it sucessful to a degree. i know it’s not particularly good now as they didn’t think in the 50-100 years bracket where nearly everybody has a car.
the question i suppose i am angling towards is do we need a modern interpretation for this type of city and with the advent of a seemingly new space race will more technology reach us where if we do design a new welwyn will it be out of date in 50 years.
Originally posted by FIN
gas electricity generating power stations produce bugger all emissions. i know ..am doing one at the moment.
but ok we don’t like electricity well what about hydrogen?You’ve got to balance cost and return (reduced emmissions) gas does this very well and there could be that Las Vegas on the moon before Hydrogen is commercially viable.
Originally posted by FIN
it is easier to travel( with the car but not the resultant traffic jams) so at the moment there is no real need for higher densities and therefore our backward looking people are stating that there is no need for it and would ruin the look of our “beautiful” low rise inner cities.What is being built now is higher than before, it will get taller as each tall building is found not to be a problem. Negative I know, but I can’t help feeling that Dublin would now have taller buildings if mistakes such as Hawkins House were’nt built so early on.
Originally posted by FIN
the new cities across the lake at welwyn amongst others i believe tried to cater for the advent of the car. but they tried to keep the cars out of the centre and have lots and lots of open space. i am interested to know if this is a general view held by all and is it sucessful to a degree. i know it’s not particularly good now as they didn’t think in the 50-100 years bracket where nearly everybody has a car.
The City centre is the key.
Originally posted by FIN
the question i suppose i am angling towards is do we need a modern interpretation for this type of city and with the advent of a seemingly new space race will more technology reach us where if we do design a new welwyn will it be out of date in 50 years.All cities that stand still become obselete, cities are a bit like the broader economy they must constantly restructure to progress. But a bit like sensible economics choices must be carefully weighed up. 🙂
more and more people wanting this utopia of a house in the country and then moving into an estate in a small town to achieve something of this.
I think its more the fact that housing is grotesquely overpriced in Dublin rather than actually wanting to live in one of the car friendly suburbs
Originally posted by Rory W
I think its more the fact that housing is grotesquely overpriced in Dublin rather than actually wanting to live in one of the car friendly suburbs
Nobody is trying to blame anyone for admitting defeat in their quest to buy a house in Dublin and retreating to the county towns.
But if prime lands such as the Grange road in Rathfarnham were developed to a higher density instead of at 16 to the acre possibly unit prices would fall?
The percentage of land cost to construction cost is also a major issue. No-one can complain in areas such as Dublin 4.
When the site value of a house in particular un-named suburbs exceeds the construction cost questions need asking.
Higher densities around transport facilities are the only solution. Am I the only one who is confused by the term affordable housing?
Because none of it has come my way despite 20% of all development being classed affordable. :confused:
If you are lucky in architectural school you can just drift through the years, doing no urban sites at all practically in fourth year, and even picking to do a nice ‘rural’ project for the thesis.
I think they have even dropped the town study from fifth year.
Presentation requirements are for 1:100 or 1:200 drawings mainly. In practice, employers like architects would ‘know’ something about 1:20 scale junctions and details, to get stuck built.
I mean, some architects have never ever set foot in the places like Rathfarnham – nor would they even bother to distinguish those places in terms of density from the Liberties for instance.
But it is interesting how quickly planners grab onto these concepts:
http://www.cyburbia.org/forums/showthread.php?p=124851#post124851
I like the RIAI housing book, which at least divided itself up into the various environments, inner city, inner suburban and outer suburban. And at least made the attempt to deal with those as separate design problems.
That is what is so nice about the Fluid Space publication by UCD too, which goes along LUAS, which would have stations, or junction points, in all kinds of spatial urban, suburban situations.
Originally posted by JordanB
I don’t like the idea of heavy Federal involvement ether. The federal government milks $20 billion from the Chicago area a year. Illinois is one of the biggest doner states in the country. Just imagine what could be done here with $20 billion more public dollars a year.Actually, considering that doner states are predominatly in the northwest and on the west coast, and the majority of the receiver states are in the Sunbelt, it makes you wonder how much the reappropriation of federal dollars promotes the rust belt/sun belt dichotomy.
http://www.cyburbia.org/forums/show…4851#post124851
It’s on the Bush vs Kerry thread
One could easily substitute the donors ofDuiblin/Galway/Cork/Limerick and compare it with recipients such as South Kerry.
Originally posted by garethace
Or EU – Eastern Europe v. Western Europe at the moment too.The donors to the EU cohesion funds have a lot more control over how the money is spent than the transfers in Ireland or at federal level in the States.
Where the EU gives grants little question is made the EU has also been instrumental in tying in sustainability safegaurds into all grants made.
Where the EU doesn’t give grants and the govt decides to do it anyway for political reasons. It often raises the question where EU grants can’t be sourced is the project sustainable?
Yeah, but america have got a great TV series out of it, in the west wing. 🙂
Maybe this need to control vast sum of wealth appropriately is the very reason, why the planning profession in the USA seems to be a way different to what it is here in Europe?
I mean, I have talked to some of those guys at Cyburbia, and they all have gone to ‘dedicated planning school’ doing studio and all kinds of subjects just as architects would do here.
I was introduced to a lot of things concerning architects, over at cyburbia. I think Archiseek does it best…. but the planners in Ireland aren’t anywhere near as vocal or savy as some Cyburbia posters.
Originally posted by garethace
I mean, I have talked to some of those guys at Cyburbia, and they all have gone to ‘dedicated planning school’ doing studio and all kinds of subjects just as architects would do here.It shows in many ways not least their communication skills both print and verbal.
Contrary to Irish perception the environment has excellent protection in most of the individual United States.
Many States would allow proportionately far fewer one off houses in the countyside than many Irish counties.
When you look at transit in places like Chicago and New York the punters have a real choice, whether to take their car to work or not. 🙂
It shows in many ways not least their communication skills both print and verbal.
Architects and mental stimulation.
Speaking honestly, having studied and listened to a large number of experts in Economics, computing and IT over the past few years, (some of these people were in their 60s and 70s) I got used to stimulating my brain a lot and reading/listening to debates and arguments which were interesting, made by people who were interesting. Maybe, those people can all be classified as specialising in academics more – but I was just shocked by how dull, mahogony-like, ‘brain-dead’ and almost hollow by comparison some of the more notable architects here in Ireland sound when they try to speak in public.
Of course, some of these architects were greatly helped by their shere level of charisma and one-to-one personal charm. By their excellent command over the English Language and enormous capacities for drinking beer. But the almost non-existent content of academic stimulation was mostly too apparent. I happen to know personally some of these individuals and like them a lot as people, I do greatly value their talent and experience in working as designers. But one thing is certain – that architects brains are allowed to go ‘out to grass’ far too early in life. By the time you are mid-20s, it seems in a lot of ways, your learning and mental stimulation days are over – and it is just one big sea of Guinness and hang overs stretching in front of you, for miles in all directions.
Which is why I wonder about making the AAI part of the colleges of architecture here in Dublin, and having exhibition space, not in the basement of 8 Merrion Square, but perhaps in the entrance route to an architectural school, or someplace. I wonder why planning and geography etc, could not all be part of the one campus with architecture. Probably a complete and absolute pipe dream of mine, but still. . . we need those dreams too I think.
I mean, Bolton Street or Richview Institutes of architecture, couldn’t possibly be more ‘cut-off’ from daily life in many ways. I.e. No young architect is ever going to bother dropping back in there to look at a book or to read a thesis ever again. Yet courses like Law, economics, business, computing – all the things driving the celtic tiger – they all depended upon older experienced people constantly updating their knowledge and bringing things constantly up to a next level. You simply cannot do that stuck in a pub of a Friday evening talking about Corb. The initial education in college is very challenging and intense, very educational and stimulating, but after that…. ? I mean, places like Angier Street, specialising in all kinds of Law, business and computing subjects seems to be as much geared for the older student coming back, as it is for the new one starting out.
On the topic of development in America – these are interesting: http://www.openrangeimaging.com/images/
Very once off, very remote, very car oriented. Lots of different ‘Americas’ me thinks.
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