Rubbish

i always thought of it as a respect issue. you have to respect your country not to litter it. we are also somewhat uneducated and lawless in our beliefs (some say as a rebellion against centuries of english rule) and don’t see the consequences of our actions. its only when someone litters and everybodies notices it does the problem stop.

i think there is a legal issue about banning gum as singapore found out ; so that whilst before it was banned now you can only buy it pharmacy stores.

Taxing gum is, as far as I’m concerned, a complete no-brainer. There’s absolutely no excuse or reason not to do it.
We have a terrible problem with gum destroying streets, in a way that no other form of rubbish does.
It’s particularly expensive to remove and particularly unsightly … and so the polluter should pay.
Ten cent on each pack won’t stop anybody buying it but it will go a long way to removing it off the streets.
I personally would go further and put a litter surcharge on fast food restaurants and cigarettes.
It’s all well and good McDonalds, Burger King, Wrigleys, Philip Morris, local chipper etc saying it’s not their fault but their products/premises are a blight right around the country.
I have no sympathy for any of them as all are making incredible amounts of money providing products that have no useful purpose and in most cases negative effects.

“Awh but it keeps somebody in a job” :rolleyes:
Its amazing how many times I get this response when I complain to somebody who drop litter.

But I feel that the councils can do more to clean up. Every early morning, the councils should be out sweeping the streets/paths. They should steam wash the paths too.

This is the official line
@DIck_Roche wrote:

While citizens have a civic responsibility not to cause litter, the producers of problematic litter items also have a responsibility and need to be more proactive in minimising the litter pollution caused by the items they produce. It is only through intensive anti-litter activities and concerted co-ordinated action that we will be able to successfully address the litter problem in Ireland.

While the consultancy report had recommended that a mandatory levy should be applied on chewing gum with the proceeds generated being used to tackle the litter problems caused by that product, I have decided – following the case made by the chewing gum industry during the public consultation process – to give that sector an opportunity to propose a comprehensive Action Plan to address the problems caused by that product

500 tons of chewing gum are dumped on Irish streets each year. No levy can raise enough money to remove all this gunk. Instead the levy should be used to discourage purchase of the product in the first place. €1 or €2 per pack. Cheap chewing gum is hardly a human right, particularly when compared with the right to live in a clean environment.

Here’s an old thread on this subject:
https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=3443

Here in Lyon they clean the streets every morning and even wash them with hoses during the summer! Thus the streets are always clean and do not have an opportunity to become dirty again. The big problem over here is with dog shit (it’s everywhere) and plastic bags. These two items have all but disappeared from the streets in Ireland so I would argue that it is not impossible to eradicate something like chewing gum litter however it would involve government intervention.
I don’t like the idea of charging tax on chewing gum or to fast food proprietors for that matter as it diminishes personal responsibility, I don’t unfortunatley have any other suggestions. I don’t believe that these steps would stop those who are littering from doing so however it might pay the cost to have public litter bins emptied once in a while.

I’m from the North and have noticed the litter problem down south. Unfortunately, it’s one of the things that sticks in the minds of people up here where the Republic is concerned – litter and dog shit.

I’d have to disagree with the poster above, there seems to be dog sheet all over the place down there. Is it ever cleared up? I was at a beach down there the other day and the smell from the public access path was atrocious. Is there a conspiracy on the part of packs of stray dogs to target bomb lay-bys, footpaths and other public spaces? But seriously, the impression left by litter and the smell of dog shit in the summer months must be nothing other than negative in the eyes of tourists in the summer months. Ireland needs more civic pride and less tolerance of what sadly must rank as some of the dirtiest public spaces in Western Europe.

Maybe the solution to the smell of dog shit is a tax cut – on pooper scoopers!!

or arrest, or for subsequent offences, put the dog down….

oops better not say that, the examiner will run “archiseek.com wants to put down oap’s dogs”

Should add that I think Crestfield is onto something. Areas that are uncared for do seem to accumulate much more litter. But I’d go further than just keeping an area clean to discourage littering – the finish of the streetscape is also important. Areas that have upgraded in recent years through urban renewal schemes tend to stay much cleaner in my view. Where footpaths are well finished, roads keep in good nick and lighting and other street furniture constructed to a durable and tidy standard people seem to acknowledge the end product by littering less. On the other hand, where you have chipped and cracked up concrete paths, leaning lamp posts with peeling paint, potholed streets with worn off road markings and shoddy disintegrating public structures people tend to treat the area as the authorities have.

I think a lot of our behaviour is dictated by the environment we inhabit. Clean, properly finished and well maintained streetscapes provide a subtle deterrent to anti-social behaviour like littering. In contrast, leave streets looking chaotic shoddy and poorly maintained and you’ll encourage similar behaviour on the part of those using it.

Swedes don’t litter in part because their built environment is so well finished and maintained. Whereas in Ireland the cracked concrete paths, bent and leaning road signs and lopsided traffic and street lights hardly set a good example to the populace. If country roads are potholed, have overgrown and unkempt verges, churned up tire tracks in the ditch with a plethora of buckled leaning road signs never mind rows of Pisa like telegraph poles smothered in ivy – all depressingly common features of southern roads – how do you expect people to behave?

The built environment must set an example.

These were the suggestions from the previous thread:

1. small tax: to raise revenue for cleaning
2. large tax: to dicourage purchase, esp. by kids
3. national change of attitude to litter: people stop being filthy
4. invention of biodegradable chewing gum: means gum would disappear over time
5. absolute ban except for nicorette (as introduced in Singapore): means you have to smuggle it in to the country
6. Spend loads of cash on top quality gum cleaning machines and hire people to use them all over the country
7. Designate an ugly building as a place to stick gum – gum cladding

Another point I should add is the removal or replacement of public structures that have fallen into disrepair or have been vandalised. This IMO is a real problem down south.

Picture the scene, you’re in a public area where there are three posts that presumably once displayed signs. Then there are a number of stumps that may once have held seats. All have been graffitied and the older ‘stumps’ have their last coat of paint peeling from them. Nearby, in the uncut grass there’s a council ‘no dumping’ sign that someone’s pull off and thrown away for a laugh – showing that the council clearly never check to see if any dumping has taken place. Add to this the favourite down there – a row of concrete bollards with the last remnants of paint still clinging to them and the odd one knocked over and another replaced with a more ‘recent’ version that doesn’t in anyway match. Finally, surrounding this benchmark of public spaces – no that’s not a bench that has been pulled off and gouged – is a fence that’s overgrown with briars and where it does protrude is both long since rotten with planks snapped from people clambering over/through it.

The above describes more or less a public area I recently experienced in the Republic. Suffice to say, the collection of what remained of public structures resembled little more than pieces of junk themselves. Accordingly, it appears that when presented with a public space that looked like an unkempt assortment of rubbish, people used it as a dump. There was dog shit everywhere and plastic packaging etc. stuffed into every crack and crevice you could find. Not a pleasant sight.

If a public are looks like a dump, smells like a dump and already contains enough council ‘junk’ and more conventional rubbish to pass as a dump, it’ll be treated as a dump.

Then again, considering a clearly embarrassed local had had the gumption to remove the sign indicating this area from its pole, no one will find it with any luck. Er, well not the council anyway.

Dare I say it, but there was once a very nasty and typically Unionist joke up here, along the lines of ‘Keep Northern Ireland tidy, throw your rubbish in the Republic’. To which one wag repplied, ‘but would they even notice’. Of course, such remarks say more about the unappealing nature of the North than anywhere else, but there is surely a grain of truth about the amount of litter down south.

I met some Germans camping near a beach in the West one summer. They told me how horrified they were at all the rubbish so they got some bin liners and gathered all the litter off the beach. Then they asked the locals where it should be disposed. “just chuck it on the beach”. We pissed ourselves laughing when they told us but they were stoney faced.

One time I was driving in Sweden and stopped by the country roadside for a cigarette. When I went to throw the butt away I stopped and noticed that the farm I was standing beside was manicured like a garden. Everything was so neat and orderly that I just couldn’t do it. Most of Sweden is like that. It really lifts the soul when you’re not surrounded by filth. When I spoke to some swedes about this they said it was a protestant cultural thing. So I’d agree with MT even though I’m a lapsed cat-lick.

@Paul Clerkin wrote:

or arrest, or for subsequent offences, put the dog down….

oops better not say that, the examiner will run “archiseek.com wants to put down oap’s dogs”

Thanks mate. I just had half the office look at me after i unexpectantly laughed out loud! Classic.

Chewing Gum will continue to be a problem as long as that powerful Hubba Bubba lobby is around.

That story about the beach is priceless, Frank. On the Swedish experience, I really think it demonstrates the power that the environment exerts over our actions. There’s a very good Winston Churchill quote along this vein about the replication of the House of Commons after the chamber was destroyed in the Blitz. Alas, it just doesn’t come to mind at the moment. But on the littering issue, it’s just so much easier to throw rubbish onto a street or verge that’s unkempt than something that looks immaculate.

On the Protestant cultural thing, I’ve heard that mentioned before. I was brought up as a Protestant and while I may have lost the belief in the bearded chap in the sky I think I’ve been scarred for life by Sunday school slogans such as ‘Cleanliness is next to Godliness’ amongst others. I’m always spotless as a result. 😉 Aaargh, I’ve just dropped a crumb on my seat, where unearth did I put the vacuum cleaner…

I don’t believe it’s a religious thing. Like anything, you would find that 95 per cent of litter is caused by 5 per cent of the population. And that five per cent is responsible for most of the major social problems we have in this country.
A bigger issue is the chronic culture of dependency we have allowed to develop in Ireland, where people just assume somebody else should pick up after them be it in terms of social welfare, housing, litter etc.
The City Council spends vast amounts of money on cleaning. When I lived in town, if you were up at seven am – the city started the day off spotless.

Whereas I’d agree about decrepit environments attracting dirt and littering, this ought not to be offered as any sort of excuse for such behaviour.
Only yesterday I passed a young man walking along with an empty water bottle, and he went to the effort of bending down and making it stand upright on the ground against a wall and then walk off! Couldn’t even got to the lesser effort of putting it in one of the ample number of bins about (let alone recycling it at home).

Also yesterday, in the sun lots of people were taking their lunch on the steps of the various monuments on O’Connell St – you should have seen the pile of plastic salad containers and paper and general crap left behind on Sir John Grey and no doubt on others during the day. I mean, how can anyone have such a mindset? Do they think it magically disappears when they walk away?
This is a year round problem in this location in particular – it irritates me so much at times that I gather up the stuff myself and find a bin, which only makes you feel worse for ‘giving in’ to picking up after other ignorant sods.

It is a mindset, a pathetic culture, in this country that is at fault. Even if there isn’t a bin in sight there is still no excuse for such filthy practices. Until there is a culture shift here, albeit amongst a minority of people, we’re not going to see any real difference with littering.

I wouldn’t regard Dublin as having a particularly dirty centre, though you can come across some ‘off’ days when it does look pretty grimey. Summer seems to be the worse for such conditions, with so many people about, and so many eating and drinking outside. It can also be unpleasantly hot and dusty on such days, making the litter seem worse than it really is.
I was disappointed about the state of the Plaza on O’Cll St the other day, covered in cigarette butts and ‘juice’ stains – not it’s usual pristine self. A one-off hopefully.

Whereas I’d agree about decrepit environments attracting dirt and littering, this ought not to be offered as any sort of excuse for such behaviour.
Only yesterday I passed a young man walking along with an empty water bottle, and he went to the effort of bending down and making it stand upright on the ground against a wall and then walk off! Couldn’t even got to the lesser effort of putting it in one of the ample number of bins about (let alone recycling it at home).

That is correct. It may be that non-decrepit environments dont attract the litterers so much. On the howth hill walk, for instance, which is litterer free and bin free – by necessity – I have never seen any littering.

come into town and the littering will increase – particularly close to a bin which tends to be surrounded by gum. I would carry an empty plastic bottle for miles – as I am sure would most people – others would dump it on the ground two feet from a litter bin.

The main reason why Dublin city is so dirty, and will remain so for the distant future, is quite simply because its citizens don’t give a shit.
I’m always amazed at how little Dubliners care for the city in which they live. Whereas littering would be something that would be grossly frowned upon in almost every other European country (bar the U.K. perhaps), it seems an entirely exceptable thing for people here to do. Whether it be throwing away your McDonald’s bag, spitting out your chewing gum, or even urinating on the streets, it’s all an O.K. thing for people in Dublin to do. And with regards to the debate surrounding the problem of chewing gum, I think the stuff should simply be banned. The Environment Minister’s response to the problem was simply a joke, and a perfect example of politicians bowing to corporate interests.
However, it’s not really just a Dublin problem, it’s a country-wide problem. I don’t think there’s really a single town or city in the entire country that could be called clean by European standards.
Nevertheless, I do think Dublin City Council could clean up its act a bit (excuse the pun lol). Bins should be cleaned and emptied far more regularly, and the actual street pavements themselves should be cleaned with high-pressure steam hoses at least once a week to get rid of the dirt, as opposed to simply the litter, on the streets.
Also, all those Buscar Bruscar bins all over the city should be replaced with the stainless steel onces that are currently on O’Connell Street. They’re bigger and they don’t smell as bad! Seriously, the smell which is coming from those bins on Grafton Street these days is just ridiculous! Indeed, the smell on Grafton Street itself is pretty bad! I think the street is really in need of repair. Perhaps now that the final stage of the O’Connell Street improvement works is about to begin, the Council will consider improving our main thoroughfare south of the Liffey?

Well, it seems everyone back home has those camera phones – if there was a website for uploading piccies shaming people who won’t pick up their dogpoo or gum or fagbutts (can’t say that here – means something completely different) and promoted via LiveWhine or PrimeWhine they might do some good!

I agree with what people are saying about the need for a change in attitude. However, I still believe that the state of the built environment also contributes to such lax attitudes towards littering.

If streets are well finished and kept clean then they’ll invite less litter. I mean, most people have few doubts about dropping rubbish on waste ground – so the less streets look dilapidated and decrepit the greater the chance people won’t behave as if they were on a derelict building site.

In this respect, I feel the state of footpaths leaves something to be desired down south. In most cases they’re finished in unmatched chunks of concrete which then proceed to crack and chip as well as collecting a brownish grime in our damp climate. The end result is hideous. I was in Howth recently and this nice little place is really let down by the acres of grime coloured concrete footpaths everywhere. If tarmac or good paving had been used the appearance of the streetscape would have been transformed. Tarmac due to its dark finish doesn’t show up dirt half as much giving an area a cleaner feel.

Having said that, even where tarmac is used down there the choice of material is inadequate. Southern councils seem to use the fragile stuff which unless driven on frequently allows weeds to sprout up through it. Pavements need to be in many ways even more durable as there’s no traffic to press the surface down. The result in many cases is a fairly recent footpath cracking up due to weeds coming up. Again, it creates such an unkempt appearance. And that’s another thing, many councils in the south could do with getting out the weed killer more often – weeds and tufts of grass seem to have taken over many public spaces.

In general I’d say the look of streetscapes would be greatly improved if far less concrete was used for footpaths and the ubiquitous walls that seem to barricade everything. Where fancy paving materials are too costly – such as in residential areas – the solution in NI now seems to be to use robust and high quality tarmac. This and more weeding would work wonders down there.

It won’t change the behaviour of the worst litter lout but surely a well finished and well maintained street environment will cause many to think twice before treating it as a bin.

On the issue of street cleaning, I have noticed one striking difference. Both the pavements around the city hall in Belfast and St Stephen’s green in Dublin were finished in granite(?) paving not too long ago. But the Belfast city council seems to have done a much better job than its Dublin counterpart in keeping the granite in its attractive original state. The last time I saw the pavement around the green it had collected so much dirt it had begun to ressemble bog standard concrete slabs.

What’s the point in spending the extra sum on an attractive finish if through lack of cleaning it loses the qualities it was chosen for in the first place?

I’ve said this before but the best way to deal with the litter problem is the way that they did it in primary school – litter duty! If you are caught you have to spend a week picking up rubbish/cleaning graffiti – if you have to take the week off work to do so all the better as it means you will miss out on a week’s holidays – rest assured after a week you’ll never do it again!

Creative punishment

In America, they send minor criminal offenders out on litter duty and cut their sentences in return.
If you had a purely voluntary system like that here, it might be something that could be looked at.
Of course, the usual suspects would be up-in-arms at the notion.

It might however disarm the argument that prison is used too quickly in particular cases and often against individuals that have little appreciation for civic values.

Not saying get crims to do it – get ordinary litterers to do it and enforece it properly.

Best advert for how fucking useless some people are – 2 years ago saw Joe Skanger sitting on a bin on Talbot St drinking a coke, finishes can, fucks it on the ground not even into the bin he is sitting on!!! Would have said something except he looked like he would kill me when I went to do so…

Wouldn’t you love to see the likes of that having to collect rubbish for a week

On the issue of pavement surfaces, the Dublinspirations report highlights very well the problem MT points out – the fact that unlike the robust rough Wicklow and Dalkey granite used to pave the capital’s streets in the past, this new white Portuguese and Chinese granite being put down everywhere needs to be constantly cleaned or else it quickly assumes a dull concrete appearance.

Notable particularly around the Green after a long spell of neglect – it looks awful, made more so by the levels of water running off the overhanging trees combining with city dust, or the huge amount of leaves in autumn that stain the surface.
O’Connell St is being regularly pressure washed at least, one night I passed it was being done at about 11.30!
As to the impact of all this washing on the stone I don’t know…

Contrast this paving with the rust-tinged antique paving and kerbstones about the city centre – they never need cleaning save some litter clearing, and always look fantastic.
We need a hardline approach to littering in this country – community service should be doled out much more often as punishments. We also need more wardens; I’ve often seen litter wardens in regional towns, but never ever in Dublin!
Are they undercover or something?!

Actually, I think the whole issue of paving in general needs to be looked at properly by the Council. While the new paving they’ve used in places like O’Connell Street and around Stephen’s Green is a welcome improvement, it does need to be cleaned regularly in order to maintain its original appearance. However, this is something which the Council seems totally unprepared to do.
What I can’t understand though, is that even in places where the Council is putting down new paving, they’re doing it with ugly, old, cheap, grey stones that look dirty and worn even before they’ve been put down! The paving put down around the entrance to the new Bank of Scotland (Ireland) premises on Stephen’s Green is a perfect example, as is the paving that was put down the entire length of Camden Street and George’s Street around 3 years ago! Here, the paving looks as if it’s been there for over 20 years! I really wonder about the Council…

It’s an issue of personal responsibility but also a municipal issue. On the one hand, we now have a significant subculture of people who have absolutely no respect for anything. But on the other hand, we have indolent, lethargic and indifferent public authorities, in strong contrast to places already mentioned, such as Sweden, or even the Wee North! We also have zero enforcement of laws that relate to quality of life. To make a comparison, if some skanger flings his KFC wrappers into my garden, I’ll curse him, but I’ll also clean it up. Of course I will. What am I going to do? Wait till it goes away? We need to understand that we have to clean up , AND prosecute the offenders. As a matter of interest, how many people here routinely take the initiative and pick up litter on the street as they walk by? That would make a difference too, and it’s something we’d all do if we really felt our cities belonged to us.

It is prohibitively expensive compared with the vast quanities of stone (especially granite and slate) being extracted and exported from China, India and lower-paid European economies.

So much so that Irish stone, particularly marble from the west, now has to be marketed as something as a ‘niche’ product which is a shame.