Phoenix Park Tunnel Photos

the platform11 site has good hot under the collar commentary on this:

http://www.platform11.org

My cousin is an engineer working for Iarnród Éireann at Heuston Station, they’ve just about completed the refurbishment of Heuston, relaying track etc, and are about to move down to Connolly …. anyway i got talking to him about the tunnel …

he says that apart from freight, it is used by passenger trains on private hire by big business etc. however, this is rare enough …

then I asked him why the bloody hell its not used to transport passengers from heuston to connolly …

According to him, capacity at Connolly is the problem…

It just cant take the increased passenger numbers, not enough platforms etc.

He is just about to be shifted down to Connolly with a large group of engineers to start work on remodelling the station, increasing the number of platforms and relaying track, he says that when the work is complete, a shuttle service between the two stations, via the tunnel, will commence, by 2005 approx …. has anyone else heard anything like this ?

how long is the tunnel in miles though? it seems like nobody cares about the poor tunnel, ah! i remember seeing it in a film years ago. i’d be afraid to enter it though on foot. it looks so dark with no light at the end, ha ha. if it does offer a really quick link to and from two main stations it should be used to help calm busy periods right now. i’d use it as a link if it were open to public use. it looks like a great way to start the metro system off???

Is the Connolly re-furbishing only limited to Connolly or will it extent to the Spencer dock area as well?

I was looking at the rail network on street maps the other day and one thing struck me.

How about a new tunnel under the Liffey from Spencer Dock to the Grand Canal basin area and eventually re-joining the main-line around the new Grand Canal station?

A very large scale project indeed, but imagine the implications, More platforms, more lines, more stations, re-route freight and non-stop mainline away from the loop line, etc., etc..

It may be impossible…..but one can only dream!!

In that case who not just put the DART undergorund from the Tolka to just beyond Pearse Street. Reopen the Phoenix tunnel and use the freed-up platforms at Connolly. Perhaps expand into the Docklands if more space is needed. Dismantle the Loop Line…. hurray! The sale of land currently used by rail lines would part fund the project.

Connolly DART is a disgrace anyway…. that long walk from Platform to exit is a joke. It would be much better develop an underground interchange for DART, LUAS and bus under Connolly and Busaras.

Originally posted by naz78
how long is the tunnel in miles though?

757 yards.

Is the Connolly re-furbishing only limited to Connolly or will it extent to the Spencer dock area as well?

just limited to Connolly & facilitating the luas to pass through it, afaik.

To do all of the underground schemes above would be a logistical nightmare – you are talking about closing the line from Lansdowne Road to beyond Clontarf road for months. All nice aspirations but it aint going to happen I’m afraid. As Platform 11 says why not make better use of Platform 1 at Connolly – I know the last train to Drogheda goes from there on a Sunday night, so why not use it during the week for a shuttle to Heuston?

Better get that signalling sorted out first I suppose

One of the lowest frequencies mainlines in Europe with a station that would be handling at least twice as many arrivals as departures as is currently done if it was in any other European country. It a shambolic situation of bad management, unions that want more money for changing rosters and operating a timetable based on the Victorian rosters of the Great Northern Railway which is still used to this day for locomotive crew change over. On platforms three and four at Connolly the Rosslare trains (which should not cross the river) sits on the platform at rush hour for 40 minutes because this is how it has always been done and nobody has thought of changing it. When questioned about this Joe Magher of Irish Rail replied “we have first class timetable people”. The park tunnel as a limited shuttle route could start in the morning if the will was there. The capacity issue is red herring. Platform11 have finally nailed this crowd for what they are.

Fine Gael are again holding a Public meeting on the Phoenix Park rain link, this time concerning the feasibility of the Spencer Dock station in releation to the Phoenix Park rail link. Platform 11 will be there along with Denis Naughten.

The meeting will take place on Wednesday 23rd July at 8pm in the Oasis Centre [off Seville Place], Dublin 1.

I wonder will they have any CIE representation… surely the CIE Board must include some FG appointees?

Originally posted by StephenC
I wonder will they have any CIE representation… surely the CIE Board must include some FG appointees?

Including the three CEOs of Irish Rail, Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann, management and staff actually have a majority on the CIE BOard, hence nothing gets done.

Fine Gael caused the problems with the rail network by their policy decision in the mid 1980s that there would be no more investment in railways. They should be reminded of this (I might just attend to stir the pot!).

BTW, I have never voted for Fianna Fail in my life.

I don’t know where I came across this as it was while ago when I did but as far as I understand it, the tunnel is to narrow for modern day rolling stock and that is one of the principal reasons for not using it. Widening a tunnel is as expensive as build ing a new on apparently.

However I’m sure its not beyond CIE to design around this problem. Some narrower or shorter carriages might work. Even reduce it to one track and timetable the shuttles so they don’t pass in the tunnel.

Where does the tunnel emerge at Connolly at the moment?

Another ludicrous feature of Connolly is how you have to get off the Enterprise service at the far end of the station, walk the whole way down its massive platform, then all the way back up the other side to get the DART, also resulting in terrible congestion in the mornings.

I’m surprised the Victorians never built a footbridge or underpass, God knows all the work THEY undertook is the only saving grace of our network 160 years later.

Good point, Connolly is one rambling, filthy, poorly maintained junkyard. I mean if anyone there (namely management) took any pride in the Irish railways they would make an effort to bring this transport hub into tip-top shape.

Instead visitors view weeds, litter and a general defeated and broken down air about the place. It’s not too late lads, a railway station is always worth salvaging. Who is in charge of CIE for goodness sake, they just let the whole rail infrastruture fall apart.It’s very obviously a group of people who don’t give a fiddlers about cleaning and properly maintaining a station or do they ever travel on the DART and see the state of the platforms that weren’t erected so long ago and see all the rubbish on the line, under the platforms, on the platforms and indeed up the walls.

Blue – as far as I understand it, the tunnel is to narrow for modern day rolling stock and that is one of the principal reasons for not using it.

don’t think so blue, as i said a few posts back a cousin of mine is an engineer with IR working on the heuston refurbishment … he told me that the tunnel is wide enough to take modern day rolling stock and is at times used by privately hired trains as well as freight.

Originally posted by blue
I don’t know where I came across this as it was while ago when I did but as far as I understand it, the tunnel is to narrow for modern day rolling stock and that is one of the principal reasons for not using it. Widening a tunnel is as expensive as build ing a new on apparently.

CIE inspired lies. The tunnel was built for Irish made coaches, which, with a wider gauge than the European gauge means that as modern stock on Irish Rail is actually built to the same width as European stock and then placed on wider bogies, modern day carriages are actually narrower than those that the tunnel was built for.

http://www.unison.ie/breakingnews/index.php3?ca=39&si=39417

TDs to visit disused Dublin rail track
07:58 Wednesday July 23rd 2003

Members of the Oireachtas transport committee are due to visit the disused rail track under the Phoenix Park in Dublin today. The track connects Heuston and Connolly stations. The Oireachtas transport committee is examining the possibility of developing the line in an effort to encourage more commuters to use rail services.

I don’t know where I came across this as it was while ago when I did but as far as I understand it, the tunnel is to narrow for modern day rolling stock and that is one of the principal reasons for not using it. Widening a tunnel is as expensive as build ing a new on apparently.

It’s alie

Thats me well told. I’m happy if its just CIE propaganda.

The tunnel was built to hadle rolling stock much larger than what runs today. The average width of modern rolling stock is 9.0′ – Park Royal coaches were 9.10″ and were passing each other in the park tunnel up until the early 1990’s. The tunnel is caverous inside and can handle anything.

There is a picture of a Galway train from 1973 at the bottom of this page going into the tunnel with Park Royal coache in 1973:

http://www.platform11.org/dconnector.html

also you don’t widen the tunnel at all – if needed. You lower it – overhead catenery could be installed inside the tunnel if needed with only minor modifations. Chances are the tunnel is ready to go as is:

http://www.platform11.org/lower.jpg

The tunnel is HUGE – CIE are spoofers and guess what’s happening this morning:

from breakingnews.ie:

TDs to visit disused Dublin rail track
23/07/2003 – 8:31:12 am

Members of the Oireachtas transport committee are due to visit the disused rail track under the Phoenix Park in Dublin today.

The track connects Heuston and Connolly stations.

The Oireachtas transport committee is examining the possibility of developing the line in an effort to encourage more commuters to use rail services.

Non of this would of happened without Platform11 – pity they didn;t exsist years ago and have called CIE to task for their carry on over the years.

I foound this on the P11 website:

http://www.platform11.org/too_narrow.html

Goldmine of interesting information. I hope hese guys don;t wear annoraks and live with their mammies

Yes an excellent site and I didn’t know of its existence until I read this thread.

I remember now where I heard the “too narrow” argument it was a program RTE did on tunnels in the capital (discussed on this forum also). I think Duncan Stewart presented it.

So RTE are helping spread the propaganda.

To be fair to RTE they only repeated what they were told by CIE. Seamus Brennan stood up in the Dail and said the same. A few months later he stopped saying it – he realised his had been lied to, just like the previous Ministers. CIE management were caught making fools of people in government and playing on their ignorance of rail transport and that seems to be over now.

It speaks volumns I think about the mentality of the CIE management. The ran the railways like their own private little Hornby Railway Set and really did believe like the unions that we paid taxes to CIE and they only had a responsibility to themselves and their employees – integrated public transport didn;t interest them.

Now that the game is up – look at how they decided that railfreight was to be dumped by Dr John Lynch of CIE last November because, accoding to him, a world expert on rail transport and cream liquers that “Ireland is too small and has no heavy industry for railfreight” – then Norforkline (runs sucessfull freight trains operations all over Europe) and Coilte said they would run their own trains and as if by magic CIE suddenly start running their service for Norkfolline and Coillte that Dr Lynch and his freight experts at CIE/Irish Rail said were impossible a few months eariler.

Norfolkline are now running a regular freight service now between Waterford and Cork that last Noverment Dr John Lych said was to be closed because their was no traffic. The line was bringin in millions a year in containers and sugar beet. It’s just amazing and sickening when you think about it. This is the mentality of the peple running Irish railways.

They have been caught lying to the polticians, media, freight users and taxpayers to hide decades of incompetance and laziness. When you get down to the nitty gritty the main reason is that CIE management and unions don’t utilise the Phoenix Park and Spencer Dock becuase they just don’t feel like it. End of story.

This is how out of touch with reality and their public remit they are and this is why we need a serious overhaul of public transport in this country to make the most of what rail infrastructre we already have and stop rubbish such as train drivers and guards getting taxis home from Longford to Dublin and the entire intercity network stopping at teatime because the CIE unions through decades of nepotism and inter-generational emloyment have evolved to a few dozens families in Dublin holding the rest of to randsom and denying us a decent public
transport system.

Oh dear!

There was a report about this on the 11 o’clock newsthis morning on Lite FM. The report said that the “disused” tunnel was unviable!

When the report was aired, there was no mention from the Oireachtas committee, just good old loud mouth Barry Kenny saying that it wouldnt help Dublin’s congestion and that IE is commited to the Interconnector to Spencer Dock.

I’m sure CIE can do whatever they need to to the Phoenix Park tunnel that they did to the tunnels linking Bray- to -Greystones for the DART extension to Greystones…….

Well it is high time that the government and RTE actually did proper research into these issues.

No-one knew that a tunnel existed between Heuston and Connelly. This means that CIE kept it a secret.

When it was discovered, CIE insisted it was too small, but no-one went down with a measuring tape to look. That is all it would have taken – a standard 30 ft builders measuring tape.

And finally booz hamilton think spending a billion on building a brand new tunnel is a better option, when we don’t even have a metro service.

I mean, I read the booz report, and it is a disgracefully shoddy piece of rubbish. In their section on ‘how to build a world class system’ not once did they mention electrified very high speed rail of 350km plus. That to me as the most advanced technology in use is by definition a world class system.

They obviously considered this scenario too unrealistic, and that it would be laughed at if they bothered mentioning it. But then why claim the slow diesel system is world class when it patently isn’t. I thought their job was to keep all options on the table.

They should never be employed in a such a serious study again.

I knew we had a booz problem in this town

I agrree about the long walk from the DART Platform to the exit – maybe they should put on a shuttle train? it is almost as quick to get off at Tara and walk over the Butt Bridge – depending where you are headed of course.

On come on it only takes 3 minutes – a sense of proportion here please!!

It’s infuriating to have to pass the place where the entrance should be (was) if you’re walking down from the north.
Takes me more than 3 minutes anyway. It has to be the worst designed DART stop on the system. And that’s saying something.

I have to agree ew. They really made a balls up of the stop here. I dont see why they couldnt have rebuilt the original DART ticket hall and included an entrance into the main station for mainline and LUAS links.

Its only when you have to use it every day that you really notice things like these.
It drives me nuts every morning, esp after getting off a delayed train.

Never bothered me when I was IFSC based

Related from Northside People….

Broadstone rail plan gains support

THE proposal by Cabra Community Council to re-establish the Broadstone railway line has received the support of the Dublin Institute of Technology, Maynooth College and the area committee of Dublin City Council.

CCC proposes the redevelopment of the old Broadstone Line from Cabra to Broadstone to run as part of the Maynooth-Dublin suburban service.

The Maynooth-Dublin line can cater for eight trains per hour peak time but because of signal congestion in Connolly, there are only two trains per hour.

Aodhan Perry, chairperson of CCC, said the community council’s proposal could increase the overcrowded service by at least 100 per cent.

“And the redevelopment of this line could be carried out without causing any train or traffic disruption and for a reasonable cost as Iarnrod Eireann already own the land which is currently lying idle,” he said.

The Broadstone terminal would be located close to the Luas line in Smithfield as well as being beside the new DIT campus being developed in Grangegorman, where there are expected to be 20,000 students). Other links include the Law Society, the HARP development and the city centre.

“Broadstone is as close to the city Centre as Connolly Station, which makes it a desirable destination,” said Mr Perry.

Cabra Community Council is also proposing the development of a major train hub at Liffey Junction (Cabra) which would entail the connection of Heuston Station with Connolly Station without the massive and prohibitive cost of tunnelling.

“Our proposal is to use existing rail lines which pass within 500m of each other at Liffey Junction. A platform linking each line would allow for a Heuston – Connolly link for a fraction of the cost of Tunnelling,” said Mr Perry.

He added that their proposals will increase services on an already overburdened line.

“We will fulfil peoples wishes for a decent public transport service,” he said. “In doing so, we will also save the taxpayer millions by utilising lands owned by Iarnrod Eireann but currently lying idle. The support of DIT, Maynooth and the local elected representatives is most welcome and we intend to continue to press for a speedy implementation of our plans.”

Cabra Community Council’s proposal also calls on the Minister of Transport to ensure that the proposed METRO link to the airport is run through the Ballymun, Finglas, Cabra and North Inner City suburbs as originally proposed in the rail document, ‘A Platform for Change’.

“ Any Metro link with the airport must be located in the highly populated areas of North and Central Dublin,” said Mr Perry. “Our communities must be given the opportunity to avail of a state of the art rail service which will bring massive social and economic benefit to our communities.”

The reopening of the Phoenix Park Tunnel is without doubt potentially the most cost effective transport project in Ireland.

It has the backing of Iarnrod Eirrean, DCC, Platform11 and pretty much everyone in West Dublin, Kildare, Carlow and Laois.

Why is nothing concrete happening on this?

Because this is Ireland.

Originally posted by Graham Hickey

Another ludicrous feature of Connolly is how you have to get off the Enterprise service at the far end of the station, walk the whole way down its massive platform, then all the way back up the other side to get the DART, also resulting in terrible congestion in the mornings.

I’m surprised the Victorians never built a footbridge or underpass, God knows all the work THEY undertook is the only saving grace of our network 160 years later.

They did, there was a wooden bridge that ran from Platform 2 to Platform 5 as least as late as the 1980’s. I remember crossing it and the dirt of the glass I have never forgotten to this day, I would swear that it hadn’t been washed since the Steam Trains were replaced.

Thanks for that – as it happens I was only in Greenes this morning and what did I see in a railway book for the very first time only a picture of that very bridge!
Presumably it was removed to allow the DART overhead lines to pass through. Where did it ‘land’ on the original rail-shed side?

It ran from Platform 2 to Platform 5 with only access from either to each other.

It was a good quality painted timber structure with typical Victorian ‘neo gothic’ proportion and detailing such as champhered detailing around the panes.

It is the loss of minor features such as this that take the quality away from Stations. But given it disappeared in the late 80’s its hardly surprising, at least it didn’t make the early 90’s when it probably would have been replaced with a PVC structure!!

Originally posted by Diaspora

It was a good quality painted timber structure with typical Victorian ‘neo gothic’ proportion and detailing such as champhered detailing around the panes.

It is the loss of minor features such as this that take the quality away from Stations. But given it disappeared in the late 80’s its hardly surprising, at least it didn’t make the early 90’s when it probably would have been replaced with a PVC structure!!

But if they rebuilt it in PVC it would have got you over the other tracks without doing a big U turn.

OK it wouldn’t have looked as good as the original dickied up, but sure isn’t half a loaf better than no bridge?

I can’t understand the attitude here to PVC

Enough of that PVC king stick to selling windows you obviously do it very well,

BTW Serious transport issues,

Did anyone see the piece in the paper today about the ‘IFSC Business Association’ (Never heard of them before) stating that they don’t want Luas at any cost down on their patch?

I’m with the RPA on this on, the scale of Luas as a transport solution is ideally suited to this project.

I also feel that the RPA have probably learned a great deal from their Harcourt St nightmare. A few more penalty clauses ought to do the trick along with a few bonuses for early completion.

All the talk of multibillion euro metros while there is homeless in the streets and a perfectly good link already there makes me sick