LUAS in Harcourt Street (Update No.8)

There is a really good thesis in this for someone. i.e. The design of monitoring controls and late penalties for cowboy contractors and egotisitical ministers.

A review of The Dept of Transport website press releases will reveal headings 1997-02 Mary O’Rouke Says.. MO’R Says…. M’O’R says

Is this Fiasco getting any clearer.

On a recent visit to The Dept of Tourism Site it starts with John O’Donaghue Says…
….
….

As they say you get the public services you vote for.

In Singapore they have just opened the folowing last August

INAUGURATION OF SINGAPORE’S NORTH EAST LINE AUTOMATIC METROSingapore’s North East metro line was today inaugurated by Singapore Deputy Prime Minister, M. Lee Hsien Loong, in the presence of the Land Transport Authority (LTA) Chairman, M. Michael Lim, and M. Patrick Kron, Chairman and CEO of ALSTOM.The new 20-km underground line, the first automatic metro line in Singapore, comprises 16 stations. The contracts for the fully automatic train control system and the 25 x 6 car trainsets were awarded to ALSTOM in 1997 and 1998 respectively.The fully automatic metro system, the largest in the world in terms of passenger capacity, has been in passenger service since 20th June 2003. It has been described as the ‘way to go’ for public transportation by Hans Rat, secretary general of UITP, the international association of public transport. In a statement, the association predicted that more and more cities worldwide will follow Singapore’s recent example.In just over two months of service, the highly complex system has been running smoothly with a level of reliability of 99.5%, 97% schedule adherence within 2 minutes, and an average 150,000 passengers per day.

$1.5bn total

http://mwprices.ft.com/custom/ft-com/story.asp?siteid=ft&dist=ft&guid=%7B274E5080%2DCB99%2D4F85%2D80C5%2D8894CC3B5FE0%7D

So much for ‘all city centre work will be completed by Christmas’ despite, the unusually unseasonal summer/autumn?

Promises, promises, Oh how I remember 1991, light rail by 1996……. those were the days…….

Was going underground such a bad idea after all.? Instead we get glorified buses on rails with electric currents. Well done lads, take your hats off!

Here’s an obvious question… but when theyre resurfacing the tram side of streets like Harcourt, why didnt they resurface the whole damned thing?

Because that would make sense.

because it would have ment closing the road for longer and they are already getting beaten up by the post.

Garret Fitzgerald made the best point of all regarding the other Luas line. It travels for 3-4 kms without servicing anything other than the hard shoulder of the M50

Originally posted by Diaspora
Garret Fitzgerald made the best point of all regarding the other Luas line. It travels for 3-4 kms without servicing anything other than the hard shoulder of the M50

You mean Garret the ticket collector? I have no trouble granting him the title of expert in that field. Anything more serious than that (including LUAS) is above him. He screwed up the country when he was Taoiseach, including his no investment in railways policy, he should have the decency to retire quietly and stop annoying the rest of us.

I think you are sorely mistaken Ewan,

Had Jack Lynch not abolished Residential Rates in 1977 in the greatest election purchase in Irish History. This country would not have been BANKRAUPT.

As for the no investment in Irish Railways, I believe that 1985 saw the opening of the DART, 1982-85 saw all the new “Intercity” generation carriages. The line from Dublin to Cork saw the track “welded” to cut journey times by up to an Hour.

I wish Garrett could retire, I am sure it would be less stressfull than looking at the mess that Dublin is becoming.

“It travels for 3-4 kms without servicing anything other than the hard shoulder of the M50”

It’s less than a kilometer. Gareth Fitzgerald is wrong. I live beside that section of track, It would take the Luas less than two minutes to travel the distance from the Kingswood Stop to the Red Cow terminus, more bullshit “facts” about the luas …

I completely accept that Peter,

It was incorrect in that the 3-4 kms were actually from Kingswood through the Red Cow down the Cenrte of the Naas Road until it gets to Bluebell. So I suppose it also services the centre of a dual carriageway and Irelands highest concentration of Car lots besides Alexandra Quay.

“It travels for 3-4 kms without servicing anything other than the hard shoulder of the M50” The point is still well made. In any reasonable medium/high density city you would expect to see a section of rail service housing & shops & workplaces. Thus in that 2 minutes you would expect to see thousands of people living and working.

Trams on track to cost an extra £100m

GARETH EDWARDS

THE cost of bringing trams back to the Capital has risen by almost £100 million.

Capital costs for the two initial lines have now been estimated at £473m – £93m more than the £375m set aside for the project by the Scottish Parliament.

Opposition leaders have slammed the extra costs, warning they could mean high ticket prices for the trams.

nope not Dublin but Edinburgh….

The new paving on Harcourt Street is beautiful, what an improvement on the tarmac quick-fix job that prevailed for years.

“It travels for 3-4 kms without servicing anything other than the hard shoulder of the M50”

And why does it do this – because the locals didnt want it running through Kingswood estate – same with the reason it runs doen the canal and not through Inchicore – the locals objected. If it doesn’t serve these people they have no-one to blame but themselves for objecting in the first place.

I totally agree

lads you need to get to know the geography of the area …

The Luas runs down the embankment road (bisecting the estates of kingswood & kilnamanagh) so that it can service both Kingswood & the far more populous Kilnamanagh. It then runs for a KILOMETER to the Red Cow Depot, and down to the major industrial areas surrounding the median of the Naas Road, where many people in Tallaght work. Currently no other public transport services this area from Tallaght.

Given the restrictions on road space on all routes in to Tallaght, I really don’t see any other way they could have aligned the track.

Regardless of the NIMBY factor being quoted which is probably true. Why didn’t it go from Kingswood back towards Walkinstown and Crumlin.

What it does is a joke intersecting the biggest road junction in Ireland, down the centre of an industrial spine like the Naas Rd. Down the centre of a dual carriageway is not very familly friendly

If they really wanted to provide decent services to the citizens of Dublin 24, the luas would have been extended to City West and more critically would have been built on time.

Looking at this Fiasco I can understand why people consider their car the only option. It need not be this way.

Diaspora, please tell me what road leading off the Walkinstown Roundabout you would close to facilitate the Luas ? all six exits from that roundabout are two lane and are already choked with traffic as is the Crumlin Road.

I don’t expect the Luas to divert to my house, the driver to hop out the door, ring my bell and wake me. If i have to walk for five or ten minutes to my Luas stop (which i do) so what ?

The way dublin’s population is spread this is always going to be a problem, one luas line is not going to reach the whole population of dublin south west. Some people may have to walk for ten/ fifteen minutes or drive, thats just the way it is.

Diverting luas through Walkinstown / Crumlin would cause mayhem.

If the People of Dundrum could have a Caltravra bridge why not the people of Walkinstown.

Point taken Peter, we are probably engaging in more discussion than the entire Luas team ever did

But what about an extension to City West, is the traffic there for it?

yeah I agree Diaspora, an extension to Citywest would be a good idea … thought it was in the pipeline though ??

Peter
As two men of the world we know there are many things in the pipeline. The question is who gets left with the short straw

I heard Jim Mansfield wants a spur off to his huge new conference centre, golf course, airport, hotels etc. I think i heard him say it would cost 20 million, but he said he was prepared to pay any price to have it service city west.

I know I am going to be lambasted for this but I think that Kevin Roche should be allowed to build his NCC at Spencer Dock.

I think the NCC illustrates all that is wrong with the Development process in this country, it was going to the RDS sometime in the mid 1990’s. Then another minister decided to reopen the competition.

So it was going to Spencer Dock, an ideal City Centre location. Finally somone had listened to 20 years of Bord Failte in D’unbelievables voices sayings lads ders a few pound in dis.

Enter Treasury who attempt to use the NCC as a lever for a ridiculous plot ratio and here we are entering 2004 a European Capital hosting the European presidency with
No Luas

No Metro

and No Conference centre.

yeah, i know, youd be surprised if they could build a 100m for that amount!

E-Mail Print Version Add to Clippings
Building work begins on new €50m ‘mega venue’ complex at Citywest
ADVERTISEMENT

CONSTRUCTION work will begin this morning on a €50m conference venue in west Dublin which will be eight times the size of the Government’s proposed National Conference Centre.

Property developer Jim Mansfield’s project, to be called the National Convention Centre of Ireland, will hold up to 16,000 delegates with most of the work expected to be completed by next March.

Mr Mansfield intends to invest around €800m in the convention centre, a new hotel, a heritage-style village, the redevelopment of the Weston airport, which he also owns, and golf courses.

He also plans funding an extension to the Luas line to Citywest which could cost up to €20m.

He told a newspaper yesterday that when complete the Citywest complex will be a “one-stop shop” for international conventions which will compete with other large conference centres, including the NEC in Birmingham, for major European and world events.

“I want the whole package in Saggart,” he said. “Once you have the whole package, you have something to offer customers. This will be one of the finest convention centres in Europe.”

The project begins just a week after the Government advertised for submissions for its National Conference Centre which will cater for a minimum of 2,000 delegates.

Chief Executive of the Citywest hotel, John Glynn, said that most of the work would be finished by March next year.

He called on the Government to sell the centre abroad via Failte Ireland’s offices, saying that Citywest did not have the resources to market itself on such a scale.

“We are saying to the Government that money is tight, particularly with Charlie McCreevy’s budget coming up, but we are building it and we just want it to be recognised.”

He added that the decision to construct the centre was taken after computer giant IBM told them two years ago that their existing 4,000 seater centre wasn’t big enough for a planned conference.

Mr Mansfield plans on building another hotel, the Citywest Palmerstown Hotel, beside a new golf course designed by Christy O’Connor Jnr and Jack Nicklaus next year.

The minister for tourism just advertised in the press both here and in the EU for proposals for a conference centre with a minimum capacity of 2000.

i amn’t sure anyone will disagree with you diaspora, the kevin roche building was fun, we are dying for something like this and there isn’t a better location.

any new updates on the way for your website Gabriel? I’m very keen to see how things are progressing. Could you bring back the photo of the week thing also if you have time? Whats the story with testing etc? When should we see some intensive testing

Looking forward to seeing your pictures Gabriel.

I was out in Tallaght earlier this week and saw one of the shelters had been assembled on the stop at Kingswood. Its not glazed yet for obvious reasons. See picture attached.

JJ

the new bus livery is nice, now what would be great would be having the taxis match. will the franchised buses match to, as they do in london, or will each company decide its own livery?

Does anyone else get the feeling that Luas is a glorified bus on rails that will clog streets and cause more congestion??

Why on earth did we not go for a metro?(thinking too far long-term?)

Totally agree about taxis, they should be in the Dublin colours for Dublin or the same colour as the roof sign!

Ninety five per cent of the area over which Luas travels will be entirely separate to road traffic, so no it won’t cause more congestion.

It will take hundreds of cars a day off the roads. It’s not a perfect solution, and it is almost exactly like a glorified bus, but it’s certainly not going to make things worse.

What about all this nonsense at Connolly Station. A farce and a waste of money they are labelling it. Personally I think the ramp should have been removed regardless of Luas as it now opens up the Docklands to the rest of the city. A bit of judicious redevelopment of Amiens St and there could be a seemless trasnition from O’Connell St to the Docklands. However I also think it makes good sense to have Luas connect with Connolly as at the end of the day it is a major transport interchange. Having the ‘Connolly’ stop at the Harbourmaster would not really be logical.

All this proposed business of having the trams dock at Connolly and then come back on themselves and head down Mayor St is a bit of a nonsense though. I think that the trams should continue on from Connolly and down Sherrif St (I am not sure how this would woork with exisiting buildings). This would extend the benefits of the Luas to residential areas on the other side of Sherrif St and make the Docklands expand northwards. It would also leave Mayor St free as the main thorroughfare of the area.

I agree, it looks great with the ramp gone, it opens the IFSC up, this end of the IFSC is the most closed off and so this is a big improvement, it will open up a nice plaza too framed by transport links.

one problem with running the luas down sherriff street is the incline on the sherriff street bridge. an advantage of running it down mayor street is that it will be close to the south quays, encouraging people to cross the new footbridge at stack a. obviously having it backing out of connolly is stupid, but i think the mayor street route makes sense.

most of this 30M isn’t money wasted, it has just been transfered from the RPA to the DDDA, so the DDDA can now spend it not buildig the U2 tower.

now, why doesn’t the luas continue from the point up east wall road so that it can serve the east point business park, oh, and my house. it wouldn’t be so expensive because they are going to be widening the east wall road anyway and so there would be no need for all this service repositioning.

The Sherriff St bridge is going as part of the redevelopment.

Regarding bridges I think The Macken St bridge should be built first for two reasons.

Firstly it looks better, and will give the Docklands a sense that something is happening.

Secondly it would provide a better accesss point to the LUAS from JR Quay. The walk from stack A to Matt Talbot bridge is pretty short anyway.

Did you read the article last in last Sunday’s Tribune with Peter Coyne of DDDA. HE reckoned that the tender for the new footbridge at Stack A (or chq as we should now callit ) would be issued this month and the bridge finsihed by the summer!. He also reckoned that work on the Macken St Bridge would start later this year.

The Macken St bridge is a must. It is ridiculous that there are no crossings from Matt Talbot down to the (appallling) East Link. The area where the bridge crosses from the north side has already been cleared pending works.

Gabriel – are the trams staying that colour? Silver with no livery. I like that.. very minimalist and modern.

i didn’t realize the sherriff street bridge was going, i guess that’s good, how are we going to get over the canal without blocking it for canal traffic, I guess a much lower bridge would still have clearance.

For info :

There’s an RPA Line C1 open day next Tuesday between 10am and 7pm in the National College of Ireland foyer.

There was one held before Christmas which had drawings and photomontages of the proposals.

Deatils here : http://www.ifsconline.ie

JJ

Possibly something like the Structure at Guild St, to facilitate the movement of boats from the Liffey.

I am a little sad to see the bridge go, as it is a great vantage point back towards Mount St and The BOI in Baggot St looks great.

Many artists often gathered there to get perspectives as well. But hopfully some new public vantage point will be provided, even higher hopefully

Nice photograph Gabriel. Cheers!! What kind of speeds can we expect to see on the lines? Are there any points where the units will be at top speed? What speeds are the tests doing at red cow area?

While getting drenched on the way to the pub last night I had a quick squint at the new LUAS overhead cables and supports.

They are really cool and such an improvement from the muck used on the DART line.

It may be over budget and years late but at least it appears that it will look great.

Roll on the metro

Gabriel. All the track is down on Harcourt street but there isnt really any work going on at the moment to return the street to normality. What i mean is removing the barriers from the Garda place down and resurfacing the other side of the street to the tracks. Surely after all the bad press this street has gotten a strong push should be made to finish it off

i imagine that after all the bad press, they only want to go at it once more, so they are waiting for when they are working at the wiring before the work on the other stuff.

Two interesting things

1 – the Luas stop outside the Odeon (old Harcourt Street Station) is getting actual individual cobble-lock between the rails whereas the Abbey St Station (for example) is getting printed concrete. Southside bias?

2 – Isn’t it interesting how the pavement has been finished outside The Sunday Business Post Office and The Origin gallery on Harcourt Street (and nowhere else on the street) given that these were the most vocal complainers about the Luas – a case of he who shouts loudest eh?

Perhaps the cobble-lock is considered more sympathetic to the environs of the station.

I don’t like the purple printed concrete on Abbey St – it stands out like a sore thumb.
Perhaps it will look better when the rest of the roadway is resurfaced, assuming it’s going to be.

The area around Connolly looks fantastic, it’s weird really – having such a large wide plaza area surrounded by decent modern buildings in Dublin.
The ramp lost it’s purpose with the dissapperace of horses & carriages, in hindsight it should have been demolished years ago, pity the contractors didn’t accidently knock the new terminal as well…

What possessed CIE to develop offices on the roof of Connolly Station.

Furthermore it was jerry built, the next time your passing go into 5 Harbourmaster Place and take the lift. From day one it never worked it takes about 90 seconds (feels like minutes) to get to the second floor which is at about the height of a regular fifth floor.

Which one of the four surfaces is used depends on whether traffic needs to share the line:

Tarmac – if traffic needs constant access to the line, usually at crossings of for access
Dark cast concrete – if traffic must be able to mount the tracks to pass an obstruction
Cobbles – if traffic is never allowed on the line
Light cast concrete (pretty shoddy, imho) – when a footpath crosses the line

I think the tracks on the reservation of the Naas Road and along the M50 are just tracks, as are the raised tracks on the southside. Is this the case?

A good sixty per cent of the two lines is just regular old train tracks. Most of the Dundrum line is like that and then all along the Naas Road is like that as well.

yeah most of the track is in concrete, see attached pic of luas running along side the m50 … I don’t think anything else is justified in these areas …

Rory W – Real cobbles behind the Four Courts so its not a south side bias. Mind you about 85% of the Luas is on the south side so you could call that south side bias 😉

Rory,
Just a point about the granite sets, no Southside bias, the area through the back of the Four Courts and Smithfield has been finished with granite cobbles and sets throughout as well.

I’ve attached a photo taken by one of the site operatives who’s a friend, it shows the view from the “balcony”area looking back towards Busaras.

JJ

That’s great JJ – no one but the contractors can see what’s going on!
I really like that building on the extreme left of the pic, it can be appreciated much more now without the ramp.
And the IFSC looks great as well.
And Busaras, and the ‘Towers of Darkness’, and Stephenson’s block!
And even that little early Victorian terrace in the distance – it puts everything in context.

I’ve made this argument before on previous threads.
Luas has an extreme southside bias in that none of the line really serves Northsiders at the moment, yet runs through their part of the city centre (though the extension will help matters).
The only Northsiders who’ll use it would be a couple of hundred residents of Stoneybatter/Conyngham Road really. Everybody else is close enough to walk to town. Someone living in Smithfield might or might not use it – but it’s primary purpose isn’t serving them.
I still find it hard to believe that either line was considered more important than one up past DCU, through Ballymun and on to the airport.
And even though I think the Dundrum/Sandyford line has the benefits of passing through some wealthy areas – it was built largely because the track was already there.

You are right Kefu,

When consultants write reports such as the DTO ALL their findings should be implemented.

I think the bias reflects penny pinching from an Athlone based politician and nothing to do with the humour of the dubs.

In fairness its about time there was any kind of bias towards Tallaght. The northside already had a DART line, south west / west Dublin, with a huge population, had nothing.

Back to luas surfaces for a minute:

I see that a fine area of historic granite paving outside Wynn’s Hotel on Abbey Street is being maintained in situ at the moment while everything else around is being repaved and resurfaced.

This wouldn’t be an issue except that complete and intact historic pavements were removed from outside the Court House and Bridewell on Chancery Street a few years ago when luas work was beginning, and have not been reinstated.

I was annoyed about this and complained and got a long and slightly pompous letter back from the RPA explaining why this couldn’t be done because of “extensive platform construction below ground” – but it is being done now at Wynn’s!

And I doubt historic pavements on College Green would have been replaced had luas gone through there as originally planned (more nth./sth. bias).

Going back to JJ’s photo, below, its a shame they built the concrete wall on the left. Surely keeping this area open would have been better. Dublin has little open spaces as it is.

Photo here shows cobbles between the lines in Smithfield

http://www.p45blogs.net/dublin/archives/000366.html

Thanks goodness for that – I was getting worried about that particular issue. Mind you If you want to talk abou bias (a bias towards stupidity?) why not have started the Ballymun/airport line whilst Ballymun has the guts ripped out of it rather than waiting indefinitely

Blue,
My recollection of the inquiry was that the owners in Harbourmater place insisted on a wall and the judge put in a requirement for one in the light rail order. There’s also a significant difference in height between Harbourmaster Place and Amiens Street.

There’s a decorative railing to be installed above the wall as well.

I’ve attached another view of the balcony area looking back towards the station entrance. The final scheme will have four stretched fabric canopies overhead. You can see the vertical wall for the lift on the right of the picture.

JJ

Looking at that picture – the Connolly building on the right is really horribly dated now, not that it was ever good architecture.

To give the RPA/CC some credit Devin – I’m sure the pavements on College Green would have been reinstated, hopefully even they are not that ignorant of their value.

Where is this infamous wall everyone speaks of – I’ve never seen it in the area or in the picure!

Ah no wait – I see it now – I always thought it was only temporary hoarding!
God it’s repulsive, it’s going to be rendered etc of course but still, it’s a great pity how it breaks up the area as everyone says.

JJ,

I thought it may be a retaining wall of some sort but the difference in levels could have been sorted out or use steps instead.

Any idea why the Harbour Master insisted on the wall? What’s it function?

The IFSC had security Gaurds on the front entrance until early 2000, robo-gaurd down there would question anyone he didn’t know?

The back gate only came down in early 2000 co-inciding with the opening of the second phase.

In one word Nerves

In fact it actually shows how late this project is!!!!!

Spot on Disapora,
There was an old stone wall some 8m high in this position protecting the inhabitants of the IFSC. It’s still a private road in fact. The wall and railing was to “mitigate” the impact of removing the old dock wall. Issues about security, noise and general nuisance were given as reasons.

As for steps in this area, I think due to railway safety this would not have worked.

The wall is being faced on both sides with new stonework so it should look pretty good( see attached ). I think the section towards the station end is far too high however.

JJ

What I meant was that I doubt that the old pavements at college green would have been removed and replaced with something else (yet it is! happening to old pavements behind the four courts).

Overall I think the quality of surfacing on the luas corridor is fairly good. But, having a conservation background, I’d like to have seen more historic material maintained or re-integrated.

Is that wall (in the image) built of salvaged stone from the Amiens Street wall of the ramp, or is it new stone, or is it fake stone or what?

Originally posted by Diaspora
I think the bias reflects penny pinching from an Athlone based politician and nothing to do with the humour of the dubs.

Not entirely so (no fan of the Athlone politician in question). The LUAS project office never prepared detailed plans for the Ballymun line to start with, it was their decision to screw the northside.

It’s a pity they didn’t.

When you think how simple the first DTO report was in 1992.

Build Three lines

I just feel that like the conference centre decision going to the RDS, the plans made by the previous govt should have been left as they were.

Reclaimed stone is being used on the staircase onto Amiens Street. The wall in Harbourmaster Place as seen in the picture is new limestone ( I hear that it is imported from Poland !!!! ). Apparently only some of the old stone could be salvaged as a large part of the ramp was constructed from random rubble.
JJ

Sorry Devin – I should learn to read properly.

JJ there was a massive amount of limestone facing the Amiens St side of the ramp, mighty ‘ they don’t make them like that anymore’ blocks of the stuff – surely all of this has been salvaged.
Do you know where it is now?
The stone going up now is very nice.

I was in the station today – you can get a good view of the works now through the doors. There’s a big platform outside the doors, it feels like the deck on the back of a ship, and overlooks the whole area (where the original pic was taken from)
As you mentioned the lift shaft links up to it, as does a substantial stairway, and double escalators.

Why is it everytime I walk past Luas works they are going at a snail’s pace. Three/four contractors at most standing around and one working.

Completion by June, thoughts?

Yes… June 2008

The old stonework from Connolly was apparently taken to the Red Cow where it was sorted and the facings for re-use were cut off and stacked. Nobody seems to know what will happen to the left-over stone.

JJ

Has any timescale been given for the extension to the point depot, or is Connolly going to be the Terminus into the forseable future?

I was at an open day last week in the National College of Ireland about Line C1. The proposed timetable is construction in 2006 with opening in 2007. However this very much depends on a number of other factors including Spencer Dock, The Macken Street Bridge and the Point Village. It also assumes the Inquiry go’s well and approval is given early on.

There’s info and a couple of photomontages on the IFSC web site.

http://www.ifsconline.ie

BTW the Luas web site is finally being updated with recent construction news and some new images.

JJ

I really can’t see them constructing any Luas line in a year. It will be a case of Jan 2006 construction opening December 2007 I think with the usual extra two years of delays bringing us into 2009.

I think Spencer Dock will be on time, treasury’s work usually is but it is the usual checks and balances such as archaelogy that they should be doing now.

To blame those kinds of things for the hold ups are a joke

But all that said it will be great to see the network being rolled out on a phased basis.

Cars to be banned from Harcourt St due to Luas

Private cars are to be banned from using Harcourt Street in Dublin to access St Stephen’s Green, due to road space pressures arising from Luas, The Sunday Business Post has learned.

Plans are under way to allow only public transport – the Luas light rail system, buses and taxis – to access Saint Stephen’s Green via Harcourt Street. The move will close an important access route into the city, causing major inconvenience to private cars travelling to the city centre from the south side.

The radical traffic restrictions planned by the Quality Bus Network are aimed at curbing bottlenecks west of Stephen’s Green where the Sandyford line will terminate.

wires up in part of harcourt street, its great, like being in the past or in europe or something.

Any updates or photos of the week in the pipeline Gabriel? Also this is off topic but what is the time frame for the bus colour change? Say in 6 months what’ll the situation be? and are new buses being delivered in the new livery this year?

I heard on radio this morning that the mayor is to lay the last piece of track on the current luas project today at connolly? I wonder will he tell them off like he did the o’connell street guys!!!

Also there has been no mention of what will happen when the 2 lines open. Will work commence on the next part of the network, or will the government spend years evaluating it before saying they cant afford more??

What stages are preparations for other line construction at? Planning, design etc…

I’ve never been in a car in Harcourt St before, but it is absolute hell on the bus at five in the evening.
The amount of times half of the 14A & the 15s empty at the Garda Station for the sake of saving 10/15 minutes sitting on Harcourt St.
I think it would be a good thing to banish private cars, although the effect on traffic elsewhere I don’t know…

Great coverage Gaberiel.
About the seating – it’s something that’s annoyed me recently, the way the distinctive green seating is now gone on new buses, and is being gradually replaced on the older models. Hence all of the buses’ interiors are becoming very bland and lacking in identity, with that standard blue covering with the coloured dashes spattered over it, just like every city bus, tourist coach, or local minibus in the UK or the rest of this country.

The idea of having a distinctive identity for the buses’ interiors has gone out the window, which is a great shame.
Whereas the old green is now dated, it was originally very contemporary and well thought out, from the wall finishes to the seating covers, and hence was very effective – just like DART.
The capital’s bus service deserves better than off the shelf, ‘anywhere’ design.

Gaberiel has some new photos up. The good sized crowd shows the interest in the Luas, I think its going to be very popular once it gets going.

I wonder has a tram crossed the nine arches yet. Can’t wait to see this.

great to see the people out

i got notification in the door about the line b testing, saying that the first test was to run as far as beechwood (ranelagh) so yep it should have passed over the nine arches …

pretty poor coverage on the 1 o’clock news about it passing over the taney bridge …

the longer trams on line b look pretty impressive …

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0211/luas.html

(16:55) “The first Luas tram crossed the new bridge at Taney Cross in Dundrum in Dublin today. It is the first test run of the Luas on the new suspension bridge.

The new line is scheduled to go into service in June and the level of activity on the line between Sandyford and St Stephen’s Green will increase dramatically as the roll-out of the Luas approaches.

The line follows the path of the historic Harcourt Street Line which closed in 1958. The running time between Sandyford and St Stephen’s Green is 22 minutes. Trams will travel in both directions every five minutes at peak times.”

Well done Gabriel ahead of the posse yet again

http://www.ireland.com/images/2004/0212/1075512523016.html

test

no mention of it crossing the nine arches then ? I assume it did, if it was going to beechwood ???

I got confused by that picture in the indo as well
“Luas trams negotiate an incline at Beechwood Avenue in Ranelagh on its return journey to Sandyford depot yesterday as the old Harcourt line saw action for the first time since 1958”

The picture was of the Taney Bridge :confused:

The two old ladies who were on the test run yesterday who remembered the Harcourt line were actually 19 yrs old when the Luas began construction!

LOL 😀

The tram did cross Nine Arches but I’ve not seen any pictures yet. In the meantime here’s one of the tram passing under the road bridge at Kilmacud Road in Dundrum. Just visible in the background is the Gannon Homes development by Conroy Crowe Kelly which has its very own stop !

Well done GC on pipping them all to the post !!!

JJ

The TV3 news last night had better coverage than RTE. It showed the tram crossing the nine arches bridge.

JJ, nice pic, any idea what the internal rails on the track are for ?

Blue,
They are check rails to prevent a derailed tram from striking the bridge abuttments. The trams will travel through here at almost full tilt….about 70kph.

JJ

JJ Quote “The trams will travel through here at almost full tilt….about 70kph.”

Thats only about 45 MPH hardly a TGV or a maglev!!!

Cheers JJ.

Diaspora quote:”Thats only about 45 MPH hardly a TGV or a maglev!!!”

Try getting the TGV to stop every 500m ! 😉

JJ Quote “Try getting the TGV to stop every 500m”

Thats why the French are one of the healthiest races in the world, there aren’t tram stops every 500m.

A higher capacity system with fewer stops was what was really required.

Something like the DART as they already had the physical route to bear a broad gauge system as far as Adelaide Rd.

So about half the capacity was sacrificed for the final 500 or so Metres to Stephens Green

I am not having a go at the engineers and designers who have delivered a fine product.

But it is a product of the wrong specification

we’ll have to wait and see …

The story of its life…

Tram stops every 500 metres? There’s two tram stops about 50 metres apart on Luas Line A! One immediately to each side of Church Street.

Ahem,
Thats one platform in each direction:rolleyes: The Jervis stop is split for this reason. The millennium walk arrives at the ped crossing between platforms ( if they were exactly opposed the walkway would arrive in the middle of the southern platform) .

Most platforms are between 500m and 750m apart. I think Connolly and Store Street are the closest.

As regards the fit French. Paris,St Denis has a tram system almost identical to the LUAS along with at least a dozen other French cities, the Luas was designed originally by a French company ( Semaly acting as consultants to CIE) and is identical to Montpelier, Orleans and Lyon. I think its horses for courses as they say. The capacity is dictated by the expected patronage, and in any event in the long term the Sandyford line is planned to be upgraded and the infrastructure has been sized to accommodate longer trams and ultimately Metro.

Personally I think the problems are going to be at Heuston. The 30m trams will be full by the time they arrive there and whilst there is a third platform in front of the station there are no additional trams available to run the shuttle between there and Connolly.

As you say we will just have to wait and see.

JJ

well the heuston problem can be solved by reopening the phoenix park tunnel and running trains through to connolly.

It can equally be solved by following the DTO advice of building an interconnector from Spencer Dock to Heuston via Stephens Green.

But like everything else it has been botched by this government with Spencer Dock gone,

Christchurch station Gone

Guiness’s station Gone

Heuston still as isolated as ever.

Forget about the Phoenix Park tunnel it is dead milage it could serve Drumcoundra and nowhere else en route.

Originally posted by Diaspora

Forget about the Phoenix Park tunnel it is dead milage it could serve Drumcoundra and nowhere else en route.

The proposed interconnector is nothing but Irish Rail’s dick extension. Reopen the Phoenix Park Tunnel.

Quote “The proposed interconnector is nothing but Irish Rail’s dick extension.”

Devised by the DTO as independent consultants to government not any CIE group company. As the most sustainable long term solution on public transport provision.

Quote “Reopen the Phoenix Park Tunnel.”

No-one has any objection to this a SHORT TERM MEASURE.

But in the longer term it is not sufficient, it doesn’t provide connectivity between modes.

For Example: A person exits a Kildare Train at Hueston, transfers to connolly they must transfer again to get to Stephens Green. All the punters exiting the existing potential interconnector must use already packed DARTs to reach D2

The interconnector in contrast hits major employment centres at Christchuch, St Green, Pearse St and Spencer Dock it would also facilitate high density residential developments around the guinness brewery area. 🙂

The Phoenix park tunnel as already stated services one station at Drumcoundra and Connolly. :confused:

DO BOTH, Dublin needs as much public transport as possible to get the 70% of commuters who use their car, out of their cars. Throwing more buses at the problem, no matter how inexpensive they are, it is not a solution when the roads are so congested.

The Platform11 suggestions are great ideas that can be implemented quickly and will help but they aren’t a panacea. Dublin is growing and needs to do more than reopen a few disused train lines. It needs a metro. Whole areas of Dublin are just not served properly by public transport and this needs to be addressed.

The percentage of commuters using public transport needs to be trebled to do this we need to provide a proper integrated transport system.

diaspora, persumably you’d run the kildare train through to connolly, so no need to change at heuston, it connects heuston to connolly.

i don’t see how the interconnector would do much better, it would have two stops along thomas street and a stop at tara. a much cheaper way t serve thomas street would be a branch off the luas line.

Quote “don’t see how the interconnector would do much better, it would have two stops along thomas street and a stop at tara”

No the original DTO olan was to go from Hueston to
James’s St to
Christchurch to
Stephens Green to
Pearse St to
Spencer Dock

Tara St only came into the equation around the time of the ‘travelator’ invention of Breannans.

I just don’t get it, everywhere else consultants write reports, these reports are costed

Systems get built in accordance with the reports save for possibly a one or two year budgetary hold up.

In Dublin the consultants write the reports and then the cost managers try everything to drive the costs down. I mean look at the ‘travelator’ proposal.

Now instead of two metro lines one serving the airport and the other integrating both the docklands and hueston we have one line.

Quote “a much cheaper way t serve thomas street would be a branch off the luas line.”

The point of a metro is not to save cash it is to increase capacity without interfering with road space for other transport modes such as buses and cars.

The peak LUAS capacity of 2800 per hour simply falls short of that required to service high density development.

It is not only Thomas st that would benifit from this metro it is also

Christchurch/Dublin Castle close to 4 courts

St Green/ Harcourt St/ Grafton St

Pearse St/ Merrion Square / Mount St

Spencer Dock/ Grand Canal Docks/ Phase 2 IFSC

The current proposal only connects Stephens green and Phase 1 IFSC from this DTO list.

It does little to enable high density development in the places that DCC wants to put it. The failure to build a second metro line will set this city back 10 years against our competitors

I agree with Diaspora, the sooner people realise that the metro isn’t a ‘nice to have’ but essential to the future of Dublin the better.

More Buses or more Luas lines may help but they won’t solve the problem. Dublin needs a well thought metro system. One line isn’t the solution but one line as a part of well thought out system is. The London underground wasn’t built in one go.

Dublin has a footprint three times the size of Amsterdam and growing. Huge swathes of Dublin need to be serviced properly and the only way is by investing in a metro system now.

i still don’t get the arguement, reopening the phoenix park tunnel links heuston, and the new heuston development to connolly by a shuttle train and the through running of the kildare train, this provides the sort of capacity needed, a branch off the luas connects heuston to thomas street/digital hub and stephens green, all much cheaper than the interconnector and leaving money for other projects: a luas for crumlin, extend the dart along the maynooth line, a luas for the airport and a dart extension to the airport and a heavy rail connection to the airport, heavy rail to navan: lets finish the three networks we have first, then think about metro, I amn’t advocating spending less, just spending it more effectivelly.

Quote “a luas for crumlin”

They didn’t want it thats why it goes down the centre of the Naas Rd.

Quote “heavy rail to navan”

Who wants rail when you are gettin a motorway to Cavan?

Quote “a luas for the airport and a dart extension to the airport and a heavy rail connection to the airport,”

The metro to the airport is about the only thing they got right on this. The Stephens green metro station was modeled on the Hauptwache station in Frankfurt. Two metro lines intersecting giving connectivity to four different directions.

Quote “a branch off the luas connects heuston to thomas street/digital hub and stephens green”

I can see the first section working as far as Christchurch, but there is no easy route for a tram system from Christchurch to St Green.

Quote “the new heuston development to connolly by a shuttle train and the through running of the kildare train, this provides the sort of capacity needed”

You still have to change at connolly even if trains bypassed Hueston, admitedly a lot better than trying to get on full buses or 2800 passengers per hour LUAS.

If the Kildare trains terminused in Spencer Dock they would have hit

James St, Christchurch, Stephens Green, Pearse st, before hitting the docklands.

This metro line is only 4kms in length about half the length of the Stephens green to DCU section.

I dont get how people dont see how the interconnector is a bad idea. It would mean a Dart line running from Maynooth to the city Spencer Dock area, then to Stephens Green and continuing down the Kildare line. Look at what the coastal Dart line has achieved. This second Dart line would be twice as successful as it would serve a MUCH greater part of the city.

I am a regular user of the Kildare line. I do not think the park tunnel would be good. If I knew my train was going to go all the way to Connolly I would still get of in Heuston and get the Luas to the city centre. Connolly is a long way from Grafton st, Stephens green etc etc. I’d still have a bit of a walk even to o’connell street after my longer train journey. It wont solve anything in my view. I agree with some of what Platform11 say but they’re view that everything can be solved with the park tunnel and trying to cram everything into the existing overcrowded Dart network is bullshit.

Look at the RER in Paris. This is comparable to the Dart except they dont try to put everything on the one line. Lines came into the mainline stations(the likes of Heuston and Connolly in Dublin), Then they put these suburban trains into tunnels(interconnector type situation in Dublin) and routed these to places people actually WANT TO GO TO(Stephens Green, Grafton Street, Thomas Street, Christchurch, Docklands etc in Dublin)

The interconnector is about servicing these areas with a Dart system and not about trying to get people from Kildare to Connolly station.

It drives me mad the way people always look at the endpoints of it. Its the same with Luas. Its not just end to end journeys but being able to negotiate your way around a city quickly and easily, even if this means changing from one line to another. People are afraid of large capital investment. It can be afforded and will benefit so much in the long term.

Hear hear

Looking at the broader picture I totally agree with utilising the existing heavy rail network (without swamping it) and the sooner the better but its just not enough and I don’t think running Luas lines everywhere is the solution either.

The biggest problem with the Luas line is its capacity as mentioned earlier. Trams on the Red line are going to be full when they reach Heuston. We know this before the line even opens. It’s the whole M50 over again as soon as it opens its reached capacity.

The Luas has to compete for road space so it’s slower and more disruptive to build. We need to invest in a metro to serve the commuter capacity of the future the Luas just can’t compete.

Its already late but if we don’t act now and start building a metro the city will suffer. Invest in the future. It will be money well spent if it’s done properly.

Quote “We need to invest in a metro to serve the commuter capacity of the future the Luas just can’t compete.”

Only significant additional capacity can service high density developments.

Quote “Its already late but if we don’t act now and start building a metro the city will suffer. Invest in the future. It will be money well spent if it’s done properly.”

The city is already suffering and with another 300,000 housing units to be built over the next decade in the GDA, no amount of Luas lines will service them.

Interest rates are currently at 45 year lows although the cycle is turning with the Bank Of England having raised rates twice since November. It is time to issue a few €bn in 20 year treasurys. The longer they dither the higher the cost of that money.

…. and if it doesn’t get the go ahead this year it’ll become an election issue and we’ll see a re-run of the political football that besieged the Luas.

Disapora, you aren’t comparing like with like, using the Phoenix park tunnel and providing a luas link with stephen’s green wouldn’t cost more that 1/2 a billion, the interconnector would cost over a billion; a metro to stephens green from the airport would cost 2.7 billion, a spur of the dart line, a heavy rail connection and a luas line all to the airport wouldn’t add up to more than a billion and would connect the airport to the dart belt and to the rest of the country. this is real money, there is lots of things that could be done with the 2.2 billion in the difference, i would like to see more spent on scientific research and education, you persumably would like to more spent on conservation and the environment, it could even be spent on other transport projects, like extending the luas, dart and heavy rail networks. don’t just compare the interconnector and metro line to stephens green with the alternatives, compare them with the alternatives plus 2.2 billion euro.

As other contributors have pointed out, line A is a disaster, chaos waiting to happen. The capacity is woefully inadequate. Even at five minute intervals, the trams will be stuffed as a Christmas turkey.

Just imagine the morning rush-hour. At heuston station you’ve got two hundred people, all carrying backpacks and suitcases, trying to get onto an already-packed tram.

Packed because by the time a tram reaches heuston it will have made FIFTEEN stops. That means each tram can collect only 13 passegers at each stop. This is bound to be inadequate, given that the LUAS passes through polulated Tallaght, Drimnagh and Inchicore – never mind the giant Park ‘n’ Ride at the Red Cow.

The promised 38 minute journey time from Tallaght to Abbey is a joke. They may as well have plucked a figure from the sky. When I asked Eamon Brady, PRO of the RPA, how long would the journey take from Suir Road to Abbey, he paused and said: “Well it’s about half way along so I guess 19 minutes”

He didn’t know. There has been no analysis done, no approximate timings for each stop, so how can anyone believe the RPA’s propaganda?

Quote “a metro to stephens green from the airport would cost 2.7 billion”

This route is 15kms or 8kms Underground and 7kms standard broad gauge line. Included in this is presumably the rolling stock, signalling and station costs which would probably constitute about E$500m of the total.

That leaves about E$2100m for the actual construction of the line. which would probably be in the order of E$75m per kilometre giving a cost of E$1125 leaving a residual cost of E$975m for the underground section. Or a E$1575 in total for the underground section at E$199 per kilometre.

Quote “a heavy rail connection and a luas line all to the airport wouldn’t add up to more than a billion and would connect the airport to the dart belt and to the rest of the country”

Even if a land corridor exists it would cost a fortune not to mention bridges over a motorway for heavy rail.

The cost of lands in North Co Dublin is likely to exceed a 1m an acre . Then welcome the NIMBY lobby who are guaranteed to hold it up for years.

Besides the fact that the existing Howth Junction to Connolly Section is already at capacity. Additional capacity is what is required.

Quote “don’t just compare the interconnector and metro line to stephens green with the alternatives, compare them with the alternatives plus 2.2 billion euro.”

The E$2bn is really E$975m to link Stephens green via Connolly to the Airport.

The cost of E$796m to link all systems is quite a small one considering just how many transport options it will provide.

It is also the only way to provide substantial additional capacity on an East-West axis in the City.

Quote “you persumably would like to more spent on conservation and the environment”

No. I as an An Taisce supporter simply wish European and National Laws to be enforced. The building of a European standard public transport system in conjunction with urban renewal programmes would deliver more on sustainability than a few trophy restorations. The environment is not discretionary spending in Europe it is a fundamental obligation of EU mebership at governmental level.

I said: “…There’s two tram stops about 50 metres apart on Luas Line A! One immediately to each side of Church Street.”

JJ replied: “Ahem, Thats one platform in each direction :rolleyes: The Jervis stop is split for this reason…”

Ahem, you’re wrong JJ :rolleyes: :rolleyes:. The stops I was talking about are at Chancery Street, just east of Church Street, and Hammond Lane (which is the Smithfield stop), just west of Church Street. The platforms at both stops are directly opposite one another.

I was exaggerating when I said 50 metres, but these two stops are VERY close.

Who put Church St there, did they not know it would get in the way at some stage?

Doooh , Your right Devin.
I checked the distance its about 250m

JJ:)

Got a letter from the RPA this morning …

“We are pleased to announce that testing of the Tallaght to Heuston section of Luas Line A will commence on Sunday, 7th March 2004 ….

… Everything remains on schedule for the commencement of passenger services in June & August of this year”

found a bit more ..

” from Thursday, 11th March 2004, testing will commence along the full extent of the Sandyford to St. Stephen’s Green Luas Line …

… once made live overhead lines and underground cables will remain live “

One stop is for Smithfield, and the other is for the Four Courts. They’re close but so is the Jervis Street stop close to the O’Connell Street stop. They need to be near each other when they get that close to town.

there’s only six stops between heuston & connolly, its not that many really …

from where will it be walking pace? Surely not the whole way? Is testing regular around Ranelagh? What kind of speeds are we talking about in testing?

It will be a job in itself cleaning the crap out from the rails to facilitate the trams. It must be an exciting time to be working on the project seeing all that hard work come to fruition.

Progress on completing the network continues. They were planting trees on St Stephens Green at the weekend so I presume they will be replicating the recent improvements on the other three sides of the Green. It will make the stop there much more attractive and it should be a great welcome point into the city.

On the north side the shell of stops are being installed from Heuston to Capel Street. They are in galvinised steel…like everything else in this city. Paint was obviously sooo last millennium. My biggest gripe though are the streetlamps. While the pylons and lines are quite okay and reasonably unobtrustive, the ugly street lamps they put on top are terrible. They could at least have made an effort. A style similar to that on Jervis St maybe? Im dissapointed. This is just not the standard we should be expecting for our 21st century city (Draft Development Plan!). One particular mess is The stretch from Heuston to Museum… the whole area is now a mishmash of lamposts and styles.

Any photos yet from Stephen’s Green?

http://www.allaboutbuses.com/luas/40311-cancelled.html
http://busesinireland.bravepages.com/luastest.html

Excellent photos. Shame about the graffiti some idiot has sprayed over most of the walls!

Luas run in to Stephen’s Green went ahead today, with some protests from Harcourt Street traders standing on the tracks …

What they should be complaining about is the manner in which half of the original silver lamp standards on the street have been replaced with those ridiculous ‘heritage’-based columns, which are being thrown up down Camden St, only with the original heads transplanted onto them.
This is disgraceful, part of the charm of Harcourt St was the historic feel of the place with the wonky railings & subsiding steps combined with the chunky bases of these silver Victorian columns.
There are some now-rare swan-neck examples on the other side, that I fear are about to get the chop.

I thought we left these destructrive days long ago.

Some pics:
http://www.allaboutbuses.com/luas/40315-green.html

Courtesy of Gabriel Conway, keep up the good work.

Originally posted by Peter FitzPatrick
Luas run in to Stephen’s Green went ahead today, with some protests from Harcourt Street traders standing on the tracks …

I am amazed that they payed any rates to the corpo who allowed the various contractors run a virtual scrap yard on ALL THE CITY CENTRE SECTIONS

A fat lot of use the luas would be if your creditors foreclose upon your business during what was a virtual open ended series of construction extensions.

Contractors should be hit with the polluter pays principle, it was a disgrace 😡

These traders should be compensated in some way, esp anyone who risks closure, they have gone through hell on this st moreso than anywhere else.
Abbey St didn’t have it too bad comparitively, but Harcourt was woeful for so many reasons.

but there is no way the luas won’t help their businesses, whatever the origin woman might say about the luas carrying the wrong kind of people.

its just luck, sometimes infrastructure changes are good for you, sometimes they are bad. if there isn’t a mechanism for charging you when they are good for business, there shouldn’t be one for compensating you when they are bad.

Lovely shot of the front of Harcourt Street Station….

I recon Harcourt Street will be an oasis of tranquility at the weekends with just the Luas and the bus lane. Should be an attraction in itself

It’ll be great for the Odean punters, just stumble down a couple of steps and onto the last tram home.

No doubt a lot of people will make it their first stop too.

Yep Christ Church is in there as well – a well thought out Idea, really localises the trams.

Fare superior to the new CIE vomit ‘n’ blue seats

Originally posted by notjim
but there is no way the luas won’t help their businesses,

If your business closed during the construction phase it would not benifit you at all. The LUAS premium will be passed on to all occupiers of rental property at the next rent review. But to date they have received no compensation for ridiculous amount of disturbance.

The corpo who were supposed to oversee all works didn’t even offer some relief of commercial rates. But charged for water and roads that were at best sporadically provided.

Now it may look well, but given the 700m+ spend it would want to.

Would any of you as supervisory architects pay out cheques on behalf of your clients in similar circumstances?

Public Transport Users Protest

Platform11 are in the process of organising a peaceful public protest outside the Dail within the coming month demanding that the Department of Transport and the Transport Unions finally recognise that public transport users are sick and tired of being treated like a forgotten child in a custody divorce hearing between the DoT and SIPTU/NBRU. We are fed-up with constantly having a gun put to our heads every time we use public transport – we want this sorted out and we demand that public transport users finally have their frustrations listened to.

Irish public transport users have their right to avail of dependable, integrated public transport just as in other European countries, and we should not be held hostage or used as pawns. A letter will also be presented to the Minister of Transport Seamus Brennan outlining our issues and demands.

If any individuals or groups would like to join Platform11 for the protest, you all more than welcome. The protest is for ALL Bus and Rail passengers, but groups from cyclists to concerned citizens are very welcome as well.

This protest is still in the planning stage (we are aiming for a weekday at around 1:30PM) and if you want more details, offer suggestions/ideas or just like to show up, then contact us at info@platform.org for updates prior to the protest. This will be your chance to have your voice heard by the government and the media for change.

The title of the demonstration will be “Public Transport Users – WHAT ABOUT US?”

http://www.platform11.org

Originally published by RTE interactive
March 18, 2004

(19:31)
The National Institute for Transport and Logistics has called for an independent evaluation of the LUAS project and the proposed plan for a Metro in Dublin.

The Institute, which is part of the Dublin Institute of Technology, has said the original cost of the LUAS was €288m but the system is now expected to finally cost around €800m.

In its audit of Ireland’s transport system, the institute also raised concerns about the value for money of subsidising regional air routes. It said the proposed break-up of Aer Rianta – which it described as ‘superficially attractive’ – raised questions about financial viability of Cork and Shannon airports.

The NITL said the large investment in roads could have implications for the future of some inter-urban rail lines and regional air services.

Related Stories
28 Jul 2003

Luas light at the end of the tunnel

22 Apr 2003

Dublin body wants more LUAS links

11 Dec 2002

Luas operator’s €90m British bailout
] [/B]

Brian we deserve answers, 512m is a lot of money I’ll see you there 🙂 😮

I´m really tired of hearing all this crap about the cost of Luas. The facts are :

The original cost was for a single line, one depot, no connection to Abbey Street and Connolly and fewer trams. It was also costed almost 10 years ago !!

The current cost reflects the new configuration (changed at the incistance of the government remember!). So now we have two lines, two depots, more trams and additional track not to mention Connolly as a major new terminus and interchange. Three years ago the government accepted a tender cost of 700million plus a risk and contingency figure of 80million. The final outurn costs are in line with those figures.

Supposing I as an Architect designed a house to a budget and to a brief then gave the client a guarantee that the price would not change from the first estimate done 10 years earlier despite the fact that its now bigger, in a different place and made from different materials, would I be taken seriously ? I certainly would not be in business very long !

By the way as an interesting aside on the Origin Gallery issue in Harcourt Street, my friend in the RPA told me that Noelle CS wrote a few months ago requesting an additional stop be provided in Harcourt Street as the stop at the Odeon is too far from her premises !!!!

Gabriel, well done on the photos, I´m out of the country on hols at the moment and its great to be able to see the latest pictures.
Keep up the good work !!

JJ

which businesses closed diaspora?

Good point JJ. Maybe instead of looking at how much the final bill has risen since the beginning, we should see if it is value for money? I think it is unfair to compare it to the new Australian transcontinental railway, which cost the same but isn’t comparing like with like, but we should compare it with other European cities projects and apparently it is roughly the same price per km although I haven’t seen any proof of this.

Even if it is roughly the same price as a European versions are we getting value for money? Is the Luas really going to have the impact need to help reduce congestion in Dublin? Is it going to get people out of their cars? Could we be investing the same cash more wisely? Would we have been better to invest more in commuter services from more outlining areas that don’t have bus services? Should we have taken a longer view and started a metro system with a greater capacity? The Luas lines will be busy from day one and will be hailed as a success, some commuters who use the bus now might have a faster alternative but I really don’t think we got value for money.

I think things are moving in the right direction, Iarnród Éireann has come up with the most forward thinking proposals put forward since the inception of the DART and the port tunnel will hopefully remove the HGV traffic from the city centre. These measures plus taxing company car parking as a benefit in kind in the city centre, if the government ever grows the balls to confront its civil servants on this, will do more to relieve traffic congestion than Luas ever will.

All that said I can’t wait to use it. It looks the business!

Stop planning and start building.

If the government stopped planning and started building infrastructure would not take half as long to build. Why consultants are employed over and over and over again to come up with minor alterations to each others plabns is beyond me. We have people in the departments capable of drawing up plans -if these plans are of no use they should be sacked, likewise once a plan has been drawn up (I’m thinking DTI plan here) why is it necessary to fuck about with it at a cost of millions with the consultants (thus continually delaying everything leading to cost inflation )rather than build it to the plans.

Useless shagging government – go build things now not keep reselling the same pig in a poke.

Originally posted by notjim
which businesses closed diaspora?

Freeny opticians in the Harcourt centre was one that I know of.

But besides Mr Freeny who was in business there since the Harcourt Centre opened every other business suffered severe ‘Injurious affection’ as a direct result of the non-existence of statutory controls that were the remit of the CARPO.

JJ I don’t accept the cost over runs were justified, I fully accept the findings of the NITL Audit as they are the eminent authority in such matters.

O’Rourke was bad but Breannan is a complete joke or the ultimate machiavellian

The comparison with the Australian cross continent railway has always been an absolute joke.
Their line is built through an unoccupied desert as opposed to smack bang through the centre of a capital city.
Per kilometre, Luas is however more expensive than similar systems built in Nottingham and in France, which are the only valid comparisons.
Nottingham’s newly-opened NET system was built at the cost of €18.5 million per kilometre.
Luas is costing around €33 million per kilometre.
The cost of acquiring land has been a big factor in Dublin. Also, Nottingham’s system doesn’t include any suspension bridges.

Originally posted by kefu
The cost of acquiring land has been a big factor in Dublin

It would be very interesting to see an audit of the land prices paid. As very little of the route that wasn’t previously on the rail linecould be considered prime development land.

Originally posted by kefu
Also, Nottingham’s system doesn’t include any suspension bridges.

Yet a sod hasn’t been turned on the Macken St bridge, strange that a Calatrava bridge in centre of Breanans electoral base and none for the strategically important docklands.

The end cost coming in at almost twice that of Nottingham per kilmometre is the real truth.

From every angle the delivery of the LUAS stinks. 😡

one business? there must be more than that, one business is less than you’d expect through natural turnover! i can think of another: the china showrooms, but even then, you’d wonder if that was because the site is worth too much now for that sort of useage and the character of the street is changing.

Originally posted by notjim
one business? there must be more than that, one business is less than you’d expect through natural turnover! .

Opticians businesses are extremly saleable upon retirement or turnover as you put it. However valuations are based upon turnover and having your businesses marooned for an un-necessary period of time destroys value. Rates levied for services not provided don’t help either

Originally posted by notjim i can think of another: the china showrooms, but even then, you’d wonder if that was because the site is worth too much now for that sort of useage and the character of the street is changing [/B]

The use of the China Showrooms as an example is ill conceived as any observer of interior fashion would know that Luara Ashley type products went out with status Quo’s brown flared pants.

Base line is still that LUAS has been the greatest waste of public funds in Irish History and its execution was actually worse if thats possible. I don’t pay tax for this type of fiasco, or should I say any tax I paid in other countries was spent more professionally.
:rolleyes:

Diaspora, I have information about that Opticians that I wouldnt post here but would clearly suggest Luas wasn’t its problem

I accept that Paul and I wouldn’t wish anyone dragged into it where they couldn’t defend themselves.

I am merely trying to address the assertion that occupiers of rental property will be ok as the LUAS gain will over time exceed the construction phase nightmare.

For owner occupiers it probably will but for tenants the LUAS will be as dirty an expression as the ‘Celtic Tiger’ was at one time. Rents will be priced up by at least 20% and no compensation will have been given, for a construction disturbance that went for twice if not three times what the original consultation phase would have discussed.

There was always going to be a certain amount of disturbance but it was not limited by pro-active management. A bit like 2000 when at least 15 broadband networks had the city’s streets like a Cavan boreen.

LUAS will be welcome when it arrives, but how can anyone have any confidence in the Dept of Trainspotting’s ability to deliver major projects.

LUAS is how many years late?

LUAS is almost 200% over Budget (NITL)

LUAS disturbance was not contained.

Diaspora, there is no such thing as the tram fairy; it is just not possible to install tracks on city streets without causing substantial disruption.

Actual construction of Luas has not taken that long, it was all the proceeding political shite that caused the delay.

How exactly should they have tackled Harcourt Street ?

It took months to untangle & identify a rake of underground services, laid over years, while the public service & telco companies themselves are not even aware of their exact location … and then shift the entire lot across the street …

Harcourt Street never had a thriving passing trade; those businesses that suffered most will benefit most.

Dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t.

Originally posted by Peter FitzPatrick
Diaspora, there is no such thing as the tram fairy; it is just not possible to install tracks on city streets without causing substantial disruption.

So the traffic arrangement at the junction of Charlotte Way and Harcourt St in 2002 where pedestrians had to walk 20 yards into oncoming traffic was normal disruption.

Originally posted by Peter FitzPatrick
Actual construction of Luas has not taken that long, it was all the proceeding political shite that caused the delay.

On that you are correct but it wasn’t only government incompetence

Originally posted by Peter FitzPatrick
How exactly should they have tackled Harcourt Street ?

In accordance with the plans as agreed with the Harcourt St businesses. Which were fundamentally breached or ignored

Originally posted by Peter FitzPatrick
It took months to untangle & identify a rake of underground services, laid over years, while the public service & telco companies themselves are not even aware of their exact location … and then shift the entire lot across the street …

That makes the Corpo look like even bigger gobshites considering a utility company needs a corpo licence to dig up a public stret/road. That is some statement Peter

Originally posted by Peter FitzPatrick
Harcourt Street never had a thriving passing trade; those businesses that suffered most will benefit most.

Harcourt has a great passing trade as the direct pedestrian and vehicular route from most of Dublin 6 and 14 to the central shopping district. Those very people that will use the LUAS travel this exact route anyway.

Your second assertion that traders will get a magic bonanza unfettered by substantial rent increases is uninformed. Why are office rents 35e per square metre in Blackrock and 20e less incentives in Tallaght? It’s called the DART line factor. Any benifits will be fully taken by the freeholders and not the tenants who paid full market rent despite seriously diminished trading opportunities. Its a lose and equal situation at best

Originally posted by Peter FitzPatrick
Dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t.

The only dams in this case were the obstructions to customers and not the customary water. This LUAS fiasco is a damning indictment of Breanann and O’Rourke before him as well as the local rate collector the Carpo 😡

do we really need to be discussing this, the property in harcourt street is now worth more so there are higher rents, the rent increase is proportionate to but not equal to the estimate extra retail income, that’s how rent work. in this way, the luas has created value, it has given value to the property owners because there property is worth more, and it has increased the potential gross income of store owners, although their rents have increased. some types of retail suit a low rent environment; discount stores, bathroom shops, china storerooms, etc, people with businesses like this will sell there leases, for a profit, since the leases are now worth more, and move to a low rent area.

either way, its just luck, sometimes the breaks go your way, sometimes they don’t. if we start compensating in situations like this, we’re screwed, nothing will get build.

the luas took three years to build begining to end, tallaght will be much closer to town when it running, so will sandyford, it will be easier to get to smithfield. its done now, lets stop this giving out. let build another one to the airport connecting dcu and ballymun. you can’t give out about the political delays to luas and at the same time repeat all the sorts of arguements that lead to those delays.

the street is jammed with vehicular traffic, not pedestrian traffic, if it was such a pivotal pedestrian route it would be lined with retail outlets.

Yes the city council are to blame for allowing the services mess, so why slam those that are left with the job of sorting it out.

Working on Harcourt street in 50m sections would delay the project further.

Originally posted by notjim
do we really need to be discussing this, the property in harcourt street is now worth more so there are higher rents, the rent increase is proportionate to but not equal to the estimate extra retail income, that’s how rent work. /B]

Depending on the type and location of the business there would be a little lift but hardly a proportionate lift.

Originally posted by notjim
in this way, the luas has created value, it has given value to the property owners because there property is worth more, and it has increased the potential gross income of store owners, although their rents have increased. /B]

Don’t confuse citywide benifits with specific locational benifits, it will do very little for most occupiers besides drive up rents.

Originally posted by notjim
some types of retail suit a low rent environment; discount stores, bathroom shops, china storerooms, etc, people with businesses like this will sell there leases, for a profit, since the leases are now worth more, and move to a low rent area. /B]

You’re not trying to suggest that tilestyle were going to open a new shoproom on Harcourt St in the absence of LUAS are you?

Originally posted by notjim
either way, its just luck, sometimes the breaks go your way, sometimes they don’t. if we start compensating in situations like this, we’re screwed, nothing will get build. /B]

So we allow contractors to walk all over rate payers, it is not the government that should be compensating the victims it is the contractors. Who behaved terribly knowing that punters like you would sacrifice the rights of occupiers once the compo word was used.

Originally posted by notjim
the luas took three years to build begining to end, tallaght will be much closer to town when it running, so will sandyford, it will be easier to get to smithfield. its done now, lets stop this giving out. /B]

LUAS still isn’t finished and it started well before August 2001. Are you completely asleep or has the 800m euro passed you by? 800m should have delivered a lot more than 25kms of tramway. I would like to see an audit of the LUAS CPO’s something tells me there may be a few skeletons somewhere.

Originally posted by notjim
let build another one to the airport connecting dcu and ballymun. you can’t give out about the political delays to luas and at the same time repeat all the sorts of arguements that lead to those delays.

No lets get the RPA out of business and let Irish Rail do the job they have a bad record historically but have improved dramitically in recent years. In case you forgot Dublin flew 18m passengers last year and is growing by 1m+ per year hardly LUAS compatible. It needs real trains

Originally posted by notjim
do we really need to be discussing this, the property in harcourt street is now worth more so there are higher rents, the rent increase is proportionate to but not equal to the estimate extra retail income, that’s how rent work. in this way, the luas has created value, it has given value to the property owners because there property is worth more, and it has increased the potential gross income of store owners, although their rents have increased

Sorry missed this first time and I hate editing posts.

Not the way the valuation system works at all.

‘What price a willing tenant would pay a willing lessor in an arms length transaction after a reasonable period of marketing’

Turnover has no bearing on rental values whatsever it only applies to businesses being sold as a going concern. Which are based on the previous five years certified accounts.

I would love to see the last five years certified accounts of LUAS inc.
😉

ok ok, i give in.

as for the airport, as you say, ir have got their act together, so lets follow there plan and connect it to the dart which leaves the problem of dcu and ballymun which seems a clear case for a luas line and, if it has gone that far, lets carry on to the airport, leaving the airport connected to the city in two different ways.

Diapora, I am amazed how you are knocking LUAS constantly and for no reason other than I think you are completly ignorant of urban light rail systems. They work and they cost money to build – END OF STORY.

If you want to know the real value and proof that the Harcourt Street traders crying poverty is utter hyperbole look at this article:

http://www.platform11.org/rail_bashing.html

Now go find me one residential or commerical property developer who is using easy access to buses as a selling point. LUAS will be a major sucess story in the history of Irish public transport (alongisde the sucess of the DART which people like you claimed was a waste as well).

You are just talking in the most begruding and little Irelander terms. It was no more expensive to build that compareble systems anywhere else and since was is Nothingham a major European capital city!

I think you need to do a bit travelling to places such as Vienna, Amsterdam and you’ll quickly realise how much of an asset to Dublin LUAS is going to be.

No disrecpect man, but you are just wrong and you need to start thinking about the big picture. LUAS in the long run will be a looked upon as a bargin considering the benefits it will being to the city of Dublin.

To clarify a slightly annoying point – Nottingham’s tram line is single track, so should have cost about half that of the Luas per kilometer. Luas is also finished to an exceptionally high (possibly excessively high) standard apart from the ugly lampposts.

Originally posted by notjim
ok ok, i give in.

as for the airport, as you say, ir have got their act together, so lets follow there plan and connect it to the dart which leaves the problem of dcu and ballymun which seems a clear case for a luas line and, if it has gone that far, lets carry on to the airport, leaving the airport connected to the city in two different ways.

I can’t disagree with that

Originally posted by Brian Hanson
Diapora, I am amazed how you are knocking LUAS constantly and for no reason other than I think you are completly ignorant of urban light rail systems. They work and they cost money to build – END OF STORY.

I have never knocked the actual
product, I can’t it still hasn’t arrived.

Originally posted by Brian Hanson
If you want to know the real value and proof that the Harcourt Street traders crying poverty is utter hyperbole look at this article:

http://www.platform11.org/rail_bashing.html

You don’t have to be poor to suffer loss, you do have to be brazen to leave Harcourt St in the mess it was in. To let contractors away with it sets a dangerous precedent.

Originally posted by Brian Hanson
Now go find me one residential or commerical property developer who is using easy access to buses as a selling point.

Harcourt St is already amply conected, but look in the property sections it often says good public transport LINKS. LINKS being buses.

Originally posted by Brian Hanson
LUAS will be a major sucess story in the history of Irish public transport (alongisde the sucess of the DART which people like you claimed was a waste as well).

I hope that August (if the opening date is met for once and not another false promise) is not the high point of the commuter, the metro interconnector would be a real start.

Originally posted by Brian Hanson
You are just talking in the most begruding and little Irelander terms. It was no more expensive to build that compareble systems anywhere else and since was is Nothingham a major European capital city!

LUAS also cost a multiple of the Strasbourg system even allowing indexing at construction inflation rates. The Hague is hardly a bustling metropolis either so I don’t see that Capital equates to anything taking New York v Washington.

Originally posted by Brian Hanson
I think you need to do a bit travelling to places such as Vienna, Amsterdam and you’ll quickly realise how much of an asset to Dublin LUAS is going to be.

I lived in Frankfurt in 1991-92 and the strassenbahn was only one small component in an excellent multi-modal integrated transport system. the principal mode was the S-Bahn or surface/metro standard Gauge Train. The trams were for the last Kilometre alone

Originally posted by Brian Hanson
No disrecpect man, but you are just wrong and you need to start thinking about the big picture. LUAS in the long run will be a looked upon as a bargin considering the benefits it will being to the city of Dublin.

I stand by the NITL audit of Irish transport I recommend you post that on your site instead of a polemic on ratepayers who stood up and were counted.