Luas Central – Which Route?
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It would appear that the RPA have binned Dick Gleeson’s figure of eight without even costing it, I do not feel it is such a good idea to treat the relevant Local Authority with such contempt.
There has been some good discussion on http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=274229&page=5&pp=20 and http://www.platform11.org on this subject.
I am not so sure that there is consensus on the impact of the wirescape on College Green as of yet on this forum and because there are only two options being pushed by the RPA on this I think we should try and see if a consensus is possible. The first or preferred RPA option is the 5bne metro which is limited to 3 carriages vs 8 on DART or Arrow commuter trains, it would serve a very low catchment population and cannot be extended to the original Harcourt St line under this works order on procedural grounds.
Secondly the original route which I think they regard as second prize.
80 – 100 million for just more than one kilometre of light rail…… what a joke. I’ll bet the proposals just mention that they
line will stop beside the other line rather than a straight through link that could carry passengers from Sandyford to Heuston etc.
Given the sorry history of cost over-runs on this project I wouldn’t consider this proposal from that RPA technocracy. Why is an alternative route – via Merrion Square, Matt Talbot bridge not cnsidered?Either way expect it to be completed at 2020, costing 1,500,000,000 excluding VAT and other costs!
And also, whatever happened the northside line…..? A huge gap in our public transport.
@J. Seerski wrote:
And also, whatever happened the northside line…..? A huge gap in our public transport.
Sure it will be there in 2007 if you believe the Sunday Times! In an article on 100% mortgages, they quoted a couple buying an apartment in Santry, stating that the LUAS will be operational to Santry in 2007.
“via Kildare Street and Exchequer Street over a new bridge across the Liffey between Capel Street and Butt Bridge.” Que?
Some of these routes seen to be really bizarre and totally unfeasible. Is this the intention I wonder. For example there is no way that DCC could allow a Luas line to go down part of Georges St. Its a vital route out of the city.
I am amazed that there is not even a mention of sending the line through Trinity (expensive and divisive but with some proper planning might actually be a good idea) or Merrion Sq, Westland Row, Pearse, Tara St and passing over Matt Talbot Bridge and terminating at the white elephant station the RPA built at Connolly. After all what is this stop going to do once the Docklands extension is completed. This route would also have the added effect of linking the Luas with three DART stations. “Integration” and all that.And I agree what happened to the figure of 8 scheme.
What gobshites!
As for the idiots buying overpriced houses in Santry in expectation of their shiny new LUAS line.
The reality for Santry is that if the RPA supply a North side transport corridor it will not go through Santry, it will be a fully segregated light rail line that will go through Ballymun and enter the Dublin Airport complex just east of the M50/Ballymun junction and use the land within Dublin Airport. The facts on the ground are that the Old Airport Road North of Santry is basically a giant logistics park/ surface carpark there is little employemnt and literally no residential population. A Luas to Ballymun could in contrast be extended on street to Dublin Airport in tandem with a heavy rail spur to Swords, I would hate to see the journey times between Swords and the City Centre if the route were partially on street and diverted via Ballymun.
It has been confirmed that Trinity have received no approaches on routing Luas through the College and indeed no approach since 2002 when there were discussions on a metro routing from Stephens Green to the Airport via Tara St, TCD are apparently entirely opposed.
I like the idea of the termination via Matt Talbot Bridge I think that areas around Townsend St and Moss St could really benefit from that, there are two concerns that I have with the earlier part of the route. The first would be the section between the Shelbourne and the Start of Merrion Row as this area is already crowded and secondly the turning circle at Merrion Row. I think that a routing turning right at the end of Dawson St and onto Nassau St and Lincoln Place would acheive almost as much and critically would take full benefit of the positives in the later stages of the route such as integration with DART at both Pearse and Connolly, would bring Pearse St back off life support and would give the visual of trams running beside the front elevation of the Custom House.
Maybe we should all be realistic here. As already said, worthwhile ideas like the figure of eight, going through Trinity and running the two Luas lines end into end at Macken Street are not even being given consideration.
Absolutely childish suggestions like going down George’s Street and Parliament Street, main thoroughfares for half the bus routes and taxis in the city, are being included just to make up the numbers.
There’s even talk of bridges between Capel Street and Butt Bridge, and it wouldn’t surprise me at all if that actually appears in the RPA submissions and isn’t a Business Post cock-up.
The mind has already been made up on this one. If it goes ahead – it’s going down this Central Corridor.
And I hate to repeat myself but where exactly is the terminus going to be:- on O’Connell Bridge.
I think it’s a disgrace that the RPA are pretending that they are going to link the lines when from what I can see this is not physically impossible.
The only way to join them is at a major interchange area (at the O’Connell Monument) or run them right into each other a la the Macken Street solution.
With that in mind (and based on the presumption that this project will go ahead regardless), why do you need to leave the lines ten yards apart.
Why not run the Sandyford line as far as College Green and leave it at that? That two-hundred yard walk would be shorter than the journey anyone undertakes while transferring from Metro to Metro in Paris or Tube to Tube in London.
It would probably save a bomb and also stop them destroying O’Connell Bridge and Westmoreland Street.
As has been said time and time again, the cost-benefit ratio on this link-up is an absolute disaster.The lines could still run together at Beresford Place at the end of Abbey St with minimal fuss. Destorying the top of OC St with a luas terminus would be criminal.
Once the RPA ‘agrees’ its route does the City Council have any input? Or is it straight to ABP?As far as I know it is straight to a public enquiry at ABP but DCC as owners of the land would be fully represented at the enquiry stage.
all this gets the RPA out of a hole with Metro – after all, it was supposed to run to the Green but they chopped out the bit from O’Connell Street to try and reduce the alarming estimated cost.
That’s an interesting idea Kefu about going as far as North Grafton St, allowing commuters to avoid the congested Grafton St (esp in the mornings with all the deliveries) whilst bringing you that bit closer to the Red Line if desired.
Of course this would never pass as a proposal though, as the appeal of a ‘link’ has to be there, even if in reality the RPA’s favoured O’Cll Bridge proposal may very well not physically link either.
That Matt Talbot/Pearse/Connolly scheme has always been a favourite for me also Stephen, though how this ties in with the greater rail plan for Dublin I’m not sure. It it is compatible, I’d jump at it.
what about IE’s interconnector ! ??? luas just can’t travel fast enough on street in the city centre … through little fault of its own too, seems some people just don’t get what to do when they see a red light …
The interconnector will happen regardless of what happens to Luas it is the only system that can support the continued passenger numbers required to support section 49 development contributions further out. If you were travelling inbound on the Red line one would change at Heuston to Dart and again at Stephens Green back to Luas. Two changes are required as would be required from Luas to Southern Dart with changes at Heuston and Pearse unless you stayed on Luas to Spencer Dock.
What is your reading of Luas almost one year in Peter?
@Thomond Park wrote:
The interconnector will happen regardless of what happens to Luas
Very optimistic. Dept of Finance are running their slide rule over it at the moment and I understand that they don’t like it. But of course P11 must keep up the pretence that they are not the Emperor with no clothes.
Ewan,
I think that with the exception of very few people that the benefits of the interconnector are very plain to see on both a convenience level (i.e. not having all Meath & Kildare commuters dumped in Spencer Dock) and a cost analysis basis. This is a project that can take Dept of Finance scrutiny and will facilitate the roll out of Dart type capacity and frequency for extensions to Balbriggan, Hazelhatch & Maynooth over the life of the 10 year plan.
The Metro is flawed both technically and on a cost analysis basis as Dublin Airport will never justify the passenger loadings to support it, estimates of above 3.4m air passengers and 435,000 airport employees using metro are optimistic based upon current airport use, estimates of a total of 5.8m users from the airport are wildly optimistic for 2015. This figure is slightly over 25% of current Luas user numbers which cost about 200m proportionally. An expenditure of 3.6-5bn under these circumstances is highly questionable given the population density along its route.
Luas for Ballymun with possibly spurs to Santry and Finglas are the answer.
It should also be noted that you have had strong opinions re Platform11 on IRN for some time
So it looks like what should have been the simplest of the Luas extensions to the Point is even under threat.
In hindsight, it appears that the removal of the ramp at Connolly was probably worthwhile:-
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/finance/2005/0820/3808988766BZLUASYARN.html
Just a thought. But considering the major issue regarding the IFSC extension appears to be potential damage to underground wiring, what about the possibility of having an elevated line.
You could run it right up the middle of Mayor Street and continue on. If designed right, it could be an addition rather than an eyesore and I bet it wouldn’t be any more expensive.Rumour has it that the Central Route has been abandoned and that the Luas will be going to westland row and linking up at the irish life centre.
@Graham Hickey wrote:
A physical link, or a pair of look-like-a-link lines on a map?
I know what you mean. I always laugh at the map when I’m getting a ticket at the LUAS stop. What do them tourists think. “get off at The Four Courts and it’s just a short walk to Stephens Green”. :confused:
From what I can gather from JPD’s rumour, it will run from Stephens Green via Dawson, Nassau, Lincoln Pl. Westland Row, Pearse, Tara, Butt Bridge & Sráid na Mainistreach. Not my favoured route to be honest. Would have prefered the LUAS down College Gr. & Westmorland St. This would be the most cost effective route to connect the two lines. Go figure.
The Cherrywood line will definatly go ahead next year, I’d put a slice of me arse on that one. The Mayor St. line via IFSC1/2 and ‘Point Village’ (fitting name for the village-like architecture proposed) will also go ahead IMO]has[/i] to.
I don’t see the point of the Westland Row line. Sure, it connects with Pearse, but what about the proposed Grand Canal Cock LUAS line? I thought the IFSC LUAS was going to run from Spencer Dock across Macken St. Bridge and either terminate at Grand Canal or possibly continue on to Merrion or Fitzwilliam. This would satisfy the Pearse Street catchment area.
Having a line on Westland Row AND Grand Canal would be a bit silly really.
edit: Grand Canal ‘Dock’ not ‘Cock’. The keys are close together 😮
Morlan take your rump out of the bacon slicer it will be fully operational during the public enquiry.
Frank Allen has really done it with that routing; it is going to hit massive problems in planning;
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