Edwardian Farmhouse

That house has a very pleasant setting and looks well designed of its time.

Regarding windows it is impossible to tell from the distance of the photo as to what would have been exactly correct in terms of glazing pattern but I would advise against UPVc grained effect for two reasons, firstly PVc windows of any description do not have the lifespan of timber windows, you could expect 20-30 years maximum and grained PVc is not exactly dirt cheap, whereas with timber windows you could with proper maintanence expect a much longer life span. Secondly grained effect traditional windows would have been rare and those that were grained would have had a much wider grain pattern than the PVc imitation teak grain which is extremely narrow in appearance.

For the design of the windows you could visit the National Museum Of Agriculture And Rural Life at Johnstown
Co Wexford.
Phone:+353 53 42888

How to get there from Wexford:
Take the Rosslare road out of Wexford. Take the first turning to the right, which is signposted for Johnstown Castle. From Dublin (via N11), Cork (N25) or Rosslare take the Wexford-Rosslare bypass (N25) to the T Junction signposted for Johnstown Castle.

Description

Irish history.

The Irish Agricultural Museum has:
Extensive displays on rural transport, farming and the activities of the farmyard and the farmhouse.
Specialised display on dairying.
Nationally important collection of Irish country furniture.

Good luck in your endeavours and I would also contact a few of the individuals on this link

http://www.irish-architecture.com/cgi-bin/igs/register/search/register.cgi/conservation_category/joiner/cabinet%20maker

https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=3267

Hi Sinead.
I’m a little confused as to how/why you think the aluminium windows are horrible but you wish to replace them with PVC!?
You might as well retain the aluminium rather than get PVC – it has a much longer lifespan!

Never in a million years would your house have had exposed timber sashes – yes stained wood did make a comeback with the Edwardians but rarely with standard windows, and rarely even more so in rural areas. Your house would have a 95% likelihood of originally having white painted traditional timber sashes. Anyone who’s trying to convince you otherwise is talking through their…nose.
If we had a closer picture it would be possible to identify the glazing patterns of the aluminium frames and at least attempt to judge the likelihood of the patterns of those reflecting those of the orginals.
Or even if you can describe them. In all probablity your house had either two-over-two sashes as in:

or single pane sashes, considering it’s c1900 we’re talking about here:

Pic here too of a standard Irish farmhouse with 2-o-2: http://www.connemaraproperties.com/Prop40.jpg

However as you’ve probably been told, for extra confusion the Georgian sash also made a strong comeback from around 1895 on, indeed it never really went away in rural areas.

They would have been similar to this, but with chunkier glazing bars.

Since you say the house has original cornicing, it seems the house was a cut above most, esp as it is two storey, suggesting the single pane sashes to be the most likely, as they were the best and most modern. A lot of two-storey houses similar to yours had such windows.
Please don’t go for PVC! Especially the brown woodgrain stuff – it’ll stand out like a sore thumb on that charming whitewashed (okay Dulux Weathershielded) facade.

This link to a previous thread may be of some use:
https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=3651&highlight=sash+windows

Not at all suggesting PVC windows but the suggestion that their life span is only 20 years is probably a serious underestimate, particularly those from the better manufacturers.

I look every day out of PVC windows that are 15 years old and they are as good now as the day they went in.
Need a hell of a lot of deterioration to be gone in five years.

If you dont like PVC, then this may be bad news.

Agreed about the dubious lifespan of PVC often thrown around – especially with the new forms coming out which seem highly durable.
But it would seem to be the case that the older form of white PVC simply does not hold up in the aesthetic stakes after 20 years, if not less. The colour goes, the joins become more evident and it can just look grotty.

With this new very tough-looking woodgrain stuff, and even the white version which seems to be the same material, it would appear that the wood ‘n sash lobby are going to have an increasingly difficult task on their hands.

Hi Sinead,
re the exposed timber windows – sorry I came across as narky – I mentioned the exposed timber in response to the fact that you were looking at timber grain effect PVCs, and in the context of your looking for appropriate windows for your house I said that your house would never have had such windows – windows that the woodgrain PVC would be imitating.

As for the aluminium, by all means criticise in a blanket way – it’s awful!! Well okay attractive designs are possible, but largely not for the domestic market. But primarily, like PVC, it is an environmentally damaging material to produce – this is why most people are against the material and why they’re against the 20-30 year lifespan of PVC. It is not sustainable to produce such a material that requires huge volumes of energy to produce, and is rarely recycled – and the icing on the cake being it only lasts for a short period of time.

But on this forum, as you might expect, people are concerned about the visual impact of these clunky, non-original, inappropriate designs and materials being used in historic vernacular buildings such as your house.
It is a beautiful structure as I’m sure you’re only too well aware, esp with that delightful monkeypuzzle out the front 🙂 – it deserves the very best, and that is its original timber sash windows.
Nothing will look quite as good as these, and if you’re interested in resale value and saleablity, brand new timber sash windows, in keeping with the architecture of the building and with its rural context will benefit you significantly over other frames.
As regards maintenance – a coat of paint every five years is all that is required, along with a light sanding before painting to remove loose paint – along with the odd check on the running of the sashes and oiling of wheels if necessary, usually checked with the painting.

Thank you for the picture you posted, the proportions are highly suggestive of simple one-over-one sashes. It is 99.99% likely that your house had sashes – as good as gauranteed – and about 70% likely it had one-over-ones. Painted white.
If you have the exact date of your house that would help further in identification of glazing patterns.

Hope this is of some help.

Yes this is one of the most common misconceptions about timber windows – they do not need to be painted annually at all.
Indeed windows in a particularly sheltered elevation can last up to 8-10 years without repainting, even if the the vibrancy of the colour may have deteriorated somewhat by that stage.

Five years is the average interval between painting with standard paint. What could be causing the misconception is modern exposed timber windows like beech etc, or 1980s softwood windows that are stained with Sadolin etc which all probably need more attention, as the water and UV penetrative protection of such products I presume isn’t as strong as the shielding skin that paint provides.

People are often turned off painted timber windows as everyone knows of decaying window horror stories from the 60s and 70s, or have nightmareish images of flaking paint, build-ups of paint, clumsy streaks of paint over the glass, bubbling cracking paint etc etc.
All of this can be avoided if surfaces are prepared well before painting, and care is paid when applying to make for a neat job.
Perhaps the biggest cause of problems with timber decay is that people tend to paint their windows when they want to change the colour rather than for the good of the window. The 5/6 year rule needs to be stuck to for the structural soundness of the frames rather than for aesthetic reasons.

An annual inspection of the windows also helps – and a washing of the glazing bars and frames too when cleaning the glass goes along way towards making them look good for as long as possible.
If this pattern is followed, along with a complete stripping of the windows every half century or so :), timber windows can last for well in excess of 200 years with little to no structural repairs.

No doubt your sashes were largely as sound as a bell before the previous owners dumped them 🙁
Definitely ask neighbours what they remember of the original windows – or try contacting the previous owners if you know of them: always the best source of info for replica windows.

What do you mean about the doorway being filled in – around all the sides of the doorway opening being filled, or the depth of the reveal (the end part of the wall that stands proud of the door)?

The only answer is to install a half door, in keeping with the house.

Only messin :). Yes it would have been a timber door originally – exactly what style I don’t know, perhaps others can help, but I’d imagine it would be a pretty simple affair made up primarily if not entirely of vertical timbers, with perhaps a small window in the middle.

Far be it from be to tell you what you should get :), but I’d certainly keep it simple if doing it myself.
It’s quite easy to succumb to twee country-kitchen designs with triangualar windows in the middle and Tudor hardware etc, or overly elaborate doors with stained glass that a salesperson will throw at you upon mentioning Edwardian.

Simplicity is at the very heart of rural design, and a simple vertical timbered door is probably what I’d go for with your house, perhaps with a small window about a foot square high in the middle if necessary.

Simple timber doors also allow you to play with the appearance of your house, as you can paint them any colour under the sun and your house will always look great if the windows and the building overall are simple in design, which your house is.

I said earlier that your windows would have been painted white – rather it’s likely they were, but also bottle green and other rather drab but interesting period colours could have been used.
If you do go for sashes, try and make sure they’re as refined as possible. A lot of modern joiners assemble rather clunky looking yokes that clearly stand out as being the poor replicas that they are.
Emphasise to the joiners the importance of the slenderness of the sash timbers, and concealing as much of the holding frame as possible either in the wall, or making it as small as possible if exposed.
If they’re unsure as to what you mean, it’s likely they don’t appreciate a good-looking sash. One of the main concerns of experienced joiners is the slenderness of the timbers.

To be honest I haven’t had any experience of ordering new sashes myself, but even from looking through the Yellow Pages etc on previous occasions you can see the dedicated window and door joiners, and then those that make stairs and roof-joists etc with windows on the side. I presume it is the latter that tend to churn out the clunky yokes, but that is not to say that a good all-rounder local joiner isn’t more than capable and experienced to make wha tyou want.

Definitely shop around – as with everything the cheapest price doesn’t necessarily get you the better deal, nor do more expensive joiners result in a better product. Looking at prvious jobs done is usually the best way to assess their work – look at samples at their workshop and ask for any buildings or houses nearby that they’ve worked on and have a look.

Good on you for asking the previous owner, I would’ve found it most difficult without offending him deeply 🙂
Certainly I’d chase him for a photograph – any pic at all that even has a bit of the house in the background is all you need, as long as some of the window is in shot. All you need to find out is whether each shas was a single pane of glass or divided into two panes, as pictured above.
It’s very likely they were single panes, but if you can confirm this you’re flying.

Also the horns of the sashes are very important. These are quite literally little horns that were added as part of the vertical timbers of sashes from the 1820s onwards to help strengthen the window with the newly invented heavy panes of glass installed. Originally they were largely decorative, but by the 1850s were quite important as a structural support. They survived ever since until the ousting of the sash altogether in the 1930s and are an importnet feature of most sash windows.

Some modern joiners can make a complete muck of them, especially PVC sashes which just can’t seem to do them properly at all.
This lovely very simple rounded horn is probably identical to the ones your house had – as seen on so many early 20th century windows:

They’re sited on the outside of the window on the bottom of the upper sash, and mostly inside the window, though not always, at the top of the lower sash like that pictured.

Horns to avoid by a mile are angular, overly decorative modern ones like these:

Your windows probably wouldn’t have had decorative moulding around the edges of the main timbers like this either.

That’s a fine old farmhouse Sinead. Looks lovely with the bluish slate roof & the sun crawling over the roughcast render façade. It will look great with some painted timber sash windows.

I hear Advance Joinery on Henrietta Lane in Dublin are good, and not too dear.

That pantry window was a great find – always very exciting to find original features!
This should act as a very good guide for the other sashes – especially the horn detail, if any, which could be copied exactly assuming it is original. Also the thickness of the timbers and the design of the overall frame etc could act as an excellent guide for your joiner.

As for the ‘fittings’ you talk about, is it the windows themselves or the hardware such as catches and locks etc that you’ve been told are available in PVC?
Either way, it is true that PVC is available for imitation timber sashes – indeed the poor horn picture posted last time is that of a PVC sash. To be truthful to you, PVC is becoming increasingly better at replicating traditional sash windows, as much as I’d like to say otherwise – from a short distance in fact some are simply indistinguishable from originals.
Even so, up close you can always tell the difference – the corners are sharper and harsher, the joins are more evident, and the majority still tend to be clunky in design – like these ghastly yokes :rolleyes:

Fundamentally though, can anyone say that they prefer what are at the end of the day plastic windows in favour of natural, sustainable, handcrafted, traditional timber?
In my view at least there is simply no competition.

As for the hardware of traditional sashes such as the catches to lock the sashes and pulleys or wheels, there are plastic versions available, especially for the pulleys which are hidden from view:

But it is always best to go for brass where affordable as they’ll last forever save the odd bit of oiling, with little risk of ever breaking:

Saying that, there are severe cost implications – on the internet the brass are about €10 each, while the plastic and steel ones are about €2 each!

As for the window catches which are in view, it is a matter of personal taste really. Personally I think very bright modern brass versions like these are a bit much:

…whereas toned down models like this Edwardian one can look very elegant:

I’d guess that simple iron or brass ones similar to that above were common on most simple house sashes like yours.

As for the pane layouts, it’s quite simple how windows developed ‘through the ages’.
When sashes first came to Ireland (quite late by all accounts) in the mid-late 1600s, glass could only be made in very small panes, blown by hand. So to make up a large window, it had to be divided up into six or nine panes per sash. Though processes became more refined, this is how windows were made for the next two centuries or so in Ireland, until a new form of making glass made larger panes more affordable by 1850, resulting in two-over-two windows for about 15 years. By the 1860s, large one-over-one sashes became affordable, though still expensive until the 1870s, when they became standard in cities, but not until the 1880s before largely standard in all areas of the country.

Even so, two-over-two design often remained in rural areas as did the Georgian sash design, which regardless made a comeback everywhere in the 1890s through to the 1930s, often seen in school and institutional buildings & railway stations etc. So rural houses like your own can never be guaranteed a certain style, unlike cities.
As always, rural areas tend to have their own way of doing things 🙂

There are loads of pictures on the internet via a Google image search if you want to print out better pics for the previous owner to look at.

Be warned though, from now on you’re gonna become a window fanatic – everywhere you go you’ll be looking at windows and annoying everyone in the car everywhere you go 😀

😀

But it’s so true, anyone that suddenly becomes interested in windows for whatever reason just gets hooked on them!

That’s brilliant news about the pantry window, sure you’re as good as done now!
If the shutters have been removed from all the other windows it’d be great to be able to reinsert them – though money money money is always lurking in the background…

If you do go for the timber sashes they’ll be worth every penny. As soon as they’re in you will cringe at yourself for ever even looking at anything else!
There’s nothing more delightful than a brand new or restored perfectly operating hand-crafted sash window – without getting too hung up on it 😮 they are a pleasure to use, and offer so much flexibility in terms of how you want to air rooms etc.

And the architectural contribution to the house will be substantial, both externally and internally, and no doubt will add a few bob to its value too…

Anyway, the best of luck with your new windows (what a strange thing to say :o). If you could post a picture or two upon completion that would be great 🙂

@dc3 wrote:

Not at all suggesting PVC windows but the suggestion that their life span is only 20 years is probably a serious underestimate, particularly those from the better manufacturers.

Agreed. Modern uPVC windows should last at least 40 years but identifying a good system can be difficult to the lay person. The profiles will last indefinitely. The problems usually arise with the design and ironmongery. Bearing in mind that windows and doors apart from being the only moving parts in your average house are also subject to significant thermal stresses. uPVC is not the best plastic for absorbing such stresses, particularly when in conjunction with other materials such as glass, steel, gaskets etc. When you have poorly designed windows the ‘system’ will fail although the profile will not decay for several millennia. Repairing uPVC is difficult and replacing ironmongery especially so when one considers the rapid evolution of the systems and consequent changes in specification. The pinking problem has more or less disappeared in new windows but I would be nervous about profile that may be coming in from China. I have heard that it is at least 25% cheaper then European profiles (no Greenpeace to harp on about heavy metal stabilisers there) and the only way of knowing there is a problem is when the window starts going pink. The British Plastics Federation has a very informative leaflet making the case for plastic windows although the section on the environmental credentials of timber is unintentionally hilarious. I’ll post it if I get the hang of attachments.

Is mise le meas,
Monty