Dublin!

Originally posted by AncientCity
Hi! I’m new here!

I’m curious about your city, how it can improve from it’s present condition

Drop Bomb in centre – start again

Oh the cynicism

At the moment, a lot of effort is going into fixing the terrible mistakes made in the 1960s & 70s, such as refacing inappropriate office buildings and developing vacant sites & neglected areas. Public & private transport is the major issue and looks set to be that for another 2 decades as plans are delayed, put back, over-running on cost and some just scrapped.

You should have a look at a newly published book called “The New Housing” . It focuses on new Irish higher density housing schemes in rural, suburban & urban areas throughout Ireland but mainly in Dublin. It’s an excellent book with lots of good photographs of these schemes along with the statistical breakdown of how many units there are per acre etc, etc.

The only place I know you can buy it in is the RIAI on Merrion Sq.

Its in Hodges Figgis on Dawson Street

try Franck MacDonald books as well.

“The Construction of Dublin” or “Saving The City”

……and not forgetting the ‘Destruction of Dublin’ by Frank McDonald too

Yes, there are many new “dense” things in the city.

But if you want to see the planning mistakes and weird and wonderful in sharp contrast, get the DART to Killbarrack and get a 17A bus from there to Finglas. From the upper deck, you will see the horrid planning mistakes of the past as you pass through Coolock and Ballymun, while you see contrasting ghettoisation in its crudest form when the bus turns for leafy Glasnevin and the wonderful ribbon middle class semi-detached sixties glories, before ending up in no-mans land in Finglas. But along the way you will see new and improved social housing, the long-awaited destruction of Babylon (Ballymun), and the start to our glorious Port Tunnel. And Finglas is changing for the better.

A nice day trip, eh?!!!

…. then take a trip to Tallaght and view the bedlam of banal boring development around the Square…and view what they consider a focal point for that so wronged (by planners and architects) community a 20 ft Totum Pole !! in the old village….and what passes for New Street a wind swept narrow enclosed in your face canyon of of banality and traffic bollards…..and all this is an example of modren Irish architecture and planning…the 70s lives on out west.

This part of Dublin looks like LA…….low rise and sprawled out.

. . . without the sunshine, topography or wealth . . .

ah come on, its not that bad out here !!!

How negative can we be?? Listen to yourselves… Ancient wanted to know about what we would be doing.. not what has gone behind! He actually used the word “beauty” ,, which maybe needs some translation to your dusty ears..
Get your noses out of the books, sit in Stephens Green and breath some real air.

Listen to today’s paper – now we are bottom of the league in our e / digital planning infrastructure.. most thought we or rather our goverment had at least a handle on this..all the waffle about digital hubs MIT gateways etc.. not enough shouting and protesting goes on in this place compared to other places..we are getting a raw deal in every direction and swallow so much waffle.

I never knew you could “listen” to todays paper?!!!!!!

sure why don’t we all go and kill ourselves? god the negativity, try looking at the other side of the coin for once ! compare dublin today with dublin twenty years ago … unrecognisable, this is a great city and i love living in it, warts and all …

True Pete, I agree with you, Dublin of years ago has’nt a patch on Dublin today. It, however, has changed immensely (thanks to the boom) and greatly for the better, ie…. it’s more cosmopolitan, foreign nationals abound, nearly everyone is working, there are things to do and things to see as unlike before, there is less dereliction, the new architecture is interesting (ahem!……..that’s debatable in some cases).
There is a buzz of optimism and hope, chic and style…… (Pretentious it may seem to some, but Dublin needs such an air of middle class ‘Bourgeoisie’. It sounds, bad I know, but Irish society has become more middle class within the last 20 years except it is a status that is unrecognised by most of those who have become middle class today. Please don’t be pedantic with my wording folks).
So let’s not get complacent and lazy then, let’s raise those standards even more and Dublin can set the precedent (as it is the capital city of Ireland) for the rest of urban life in Ireland.
It is the quality of our own lives, life in general and our environment around us that matters at the end of the day. So let’s really get those qualities and standards right and high for us all today and the generations to come.
Heres to Dublin City and Irish Life….Cheers!

Originally posted by GregF
True Pete, I agree with you, Dublin of years ago hasn’t a patch on Dublin today… more cosomopolitan… There is a buzz of optimism and hope, chic and style…… Dublin needs such an air of middle class ‘Bourgeoisie’…..

I agree with all of this.

I know you are referring to Dublin of the 1950s – 1980s when you say ‘years ago’. But, in my imagination at least, I feel Dublin of the 19th century had that cosmopolitan air, optimism, style, etc.

I think of the International Exhibition of 1865, the building of the National Museum, the Jewish Quarter, swanky restaurants on Grafton Street, the great family-owned businesses, connections with far-flung outposts of the Empire and so on.

I would love to know what it was like to be in Dublin back then.

Aierlan – surely Dublin of the 18th century before the Act of Union, when it was the second city of the Empire, would be preferable – the 19th century did very little for Dublin outside of your examples (during the 19th century the excellent Gardiner began to fall into decline)

You are probably right that Dublin was at its relative peak in the 18th C. But the Victorian era brought so much innovation – the telegraph, electricity, railways, scientific advance, SS Great Britain, Suez Canal, and so on. Singapore, Hong Kong, India, etc. were added to the Empire.

Ireland had a ringside seat for all of this.

Stirring times. I think I would have found the 18th century a little tame, by comparison.

Originally posted by Aierlan
SS Great Britain, Suez Canal, and so on. Singapore, Hong Kong, India, etc. were added to the Empire.

Ireland had a ringside seat for all of this.

Oh well thats great isn’t it!

While most on here bemoan the imagined ‘it’ll do’ culture of the state, others long and yearn for pre-independence Ireland when we were part of the honourable, caring Empire.

Now here’s Aierlan, wishing not only to be part of the great Empire but happy in the knowledge that we were only a ringside seat! surely an ‘it’ll do’ culture would be better than a subculture of passive acceptance of inferiority.

Oh how lucky we were to be taken under the wings of such a great nation. WOuld that it were th same again!

“Singapore, Hong Kong, India, etc. were added to the Empire.” your point?

is there a west brit monopoly on the irish architectural scene?
C.

God why do we always decend into these ridiculous anti Brit arguements….. its so BORING!

…thank God for some modern British influence on this city (Dublin) like Benson & Forsyth and their striking architectural contribution to Ireland’s National Gallery….and which would never have built but for EU money.

It’s a simple fact that once the act of union took place Dublin was about as important to the Empire as Bradford, just another provincial town. The town stagnated and declined. Nothing Anti-British in that, it’s just a fact.

I, like many Irish people, shop at Tescos and Marks & Spencer, watch BBC, read The Sunday Times, and support an English Premiership team to be anti-British would just be hypocritical. We are always going to be influenced by our nearest neighbour.

You have brought that ‘West Brit’ rhetoric juvenile banter up on several occasions Ciaran O ….I think that you have several hang ups and fail to accept Irish history. Get your head out of An Phoblacht and realise facts man.
Both Rory and Aierlan have valid points. Dublin thrived as Rory said as the second city of the Empire up until the act of Union…in this time we saw the building blocks of the city laid, thus we have all the reminents and jewels that remain today from the Georgian period.
What Aierlan implied was the social aspect and excitement of the 19th century and Victorian times which saw the birth of the Industrial Revolution. Although Ireland missed the full impact of this (we were the bread basket, aka remaining predominantly agricultural and providing the food for the Empire’s engine room, aka Britain; but sure did’nt even Victoria pay a visit to Dublin in the early 1900’s and all the Dubs were out to greet her waving their Union Jacks))…. Dublin maintained the hustle and bustle in a way of city life ……. professionals and trades people…..cafe life:Bewleys; coopers, seamstresses, tailors, etc……..all going about their day to day business ……….which all came somewhat to an end with changing times and the economic rut of the 1950’s and the ups and downs onwards.
I think Ciaran you should read a few more books on the social history as well as the architectural history of the city and country so as you can shake off such hang ups and accept who we are as an Irish society today and who are indeed made up of many facets.

Here’s a fews thing for you to read and look up that may help you…….

http://indigo.ie/~kfinlay/chronology/timelineindex.htm

http://indigo.ie/~kfinlay/

http://www.rte.ie/tv/dublin/prog1/1a.html

http://www.colin-smythe.com/authors/covers/gdublin.htm

The A to Z of Georgian Dublin, Harry Margary

The Genius of Robert Adam – his interiors

The Heart of Dublin, by Peter Pearson

Dublin Tenement Life: An Oral History
by Kevin Corrigan Kearns (Editor)

Dublin an Urban History by Niall McCullough

Dublin’s Little Jerusalem by Nick Harris.

and don’t forget the books from Frank McDonald regarding the city……..

The Destruction of Dublin
Saving the City
The Construction of Dublin

It’s all there man and more to be read and learned.

Also the greatest book ever written about the development of the city and the only developer with vision and a love for his native city ..the book DUBLIN 1660~1860 by Maurice Craig and the developer the one and only Luke Gardiner.

To keep both sides happy …….

you could read Hugh Campbells postgraduate study in UCD on the influence of nationalism on Dublin’s architecture and fabric……..its charts the development of the city from 1830/50 upwards to the time of joyce ……if I remember correctly…

well Greg thats a whole lot of effort and i have to say its commendable that you wish to educate someone to your way of thinking and go to such lengths to do so.

I use the term west brit, would you prefer seoneen?, as I feel there is a great amount of revisionism on this site, compared to say an historical site regarding Irish history, yes I have studied history and just not to agree with your point does not make me ignorant. I happen to believe that the negative points of our colonial past outweigh the positives while most of you here are happy to have some outstanding architecture as a reminder of such happy times.

I belive this is looking at the past through red white and blue tinted glasses.

This is not an anti-brit tirade, it’s an anti-irish rant. Those here who feel we should be back in the commonwealth etc.

My head out of An Phoblacht? You are so predictable, the typical response to someone who may speak in negative terms of british influence in Irelands social preogression, is co boring. and juvenile rhetoric too I hasten to add Greg.

Much more juvenile that the employment of the term west brit.

I really appreciate the structures we have been left with, but I do not think they have come about in a way in which I feel proud of them or many other people do. they were not bulit for the Irish for the pride of the Irish, so I cant help feel im left having to love someone else child.

Nuy the way my point about Aierlan was that she wrote of us being excited at having ringside seats for the empires forward strides… well I happen to think we still look to our neighbour too much for direction and leadership and to have the idea that Aierlan is overjoyed by being on the british coattails, a bit like ireland’s masses of premiership supporters, is in my opinion, quite sad.

Rory W. You are only not being anti-british because you support an english team? What a childish statement. Does that imply those who do not support an english team are free to be anti-british without hypocrisy. I dont support an english team, so I am free from hypocrisy. Great stuff. Thanks! 🙁

I lived in england for three years, and have studied there too, to suggest that I need to rewrite my history or theirs to do this and appreciate both states is bizarre, Most of us on this site are for a progressive and exciting Irish society and surroundings, so why do so many of you fall back to your ‘yes master’ mode and wish we could be more british.

Not anti-british, anti-anti-irish.

Cheers again Greg, ill check them out.

C.

Please can we call a halt? Let’s stick to the architecture and not personaliities and especially not politics…

The guy who started this thread is a foreigner, what kind of an impression are we giving..?

live let live and call a draw on this one.

Happy weekend to all!

not a problem.

I noticed he’s a foreigner and I think that he is getting a particularly negative impresion from some on ther with nothing better to do than bemoan all things Irish, Not that Im delighted about it either, but no need to be so ani-irish.

I have no personal problem but i do think politics pervades everything, even architecture, but I hate revisionism!

however your right NIall, ill get on with it, and just ignore it….

C.

Oh the Greg v Ciaran debates, how I enjoy them. It is extraordinary how the slightest mention of the British sends Ciaran into a frenzy, I also being a victim of his rants at an earlier time.

Enough!

haha graham,
tis not the mere mentioning of them more the revisionism attached….

go on try me, go on

:D:D

C.

Back to the original question.
It seems questionable whether or not Dublin is ever going to produce many tower blocks such as those in many European cities where they are developed in clusters around business districts. As the docklands have shown, so far, development has been relatively low-rise, – Buildings with wide plots relative to their heights – which lend them a fairly squat appearence.
It does seem however that what ‘tower blocks’ and ‘high rises’ may come about will be keeping to a circa 60m heigth a la Liberty Hall.

It will be a long time before resistance is broken down to have such heights in residential formats seeing as past experinece has (to the public knowledge) being bad & any other high rise schemes have pretty much been resticted to ‘luxury’ apartments.

In Dublin Suburbs and other towns around the country efforts at higher densities is really just resulting in 2 storey houses in closer proximity to eachother & ‘infill’ houses in side plots etc.
– trying to following the Dept. of Environments ‘Residential Density Guidelines, 1999’ – some councils cite it a lot and use it as a handy reference – some (outside Dublin esp.) ignored it as it seemed irrelavant e.g. “higher densities linked to public transport?….. There is no public transport!”

One of the oft mentioned places for higher densities is the Netherlands e.g. new developments in Dublin with permiter blocks and low-rise apartments -…the Dutch (& Scandinavian) low-rise approach being more palatable to Irish tastes.

Hope above offers a bit of a better response to the original question!

Well done Ciaran, Whatever!…..good man…….Here’s to ye……….Zzzzzzzzzzzzz!
…..I love that hotel in Dubai …the Burj Al Arab….(Arab Towers) do you. Would’nt it be nice to build something like that down the Dublin Docks…… I was lucky enough to stay there with me girlfriend 2 years ago. It was a luxurious place and a great hoilday.
Architecture can change people lives for the better, can’t it.
Despite being half Spanish and an American DeValera’s favorite meal was’nt piella but plain old bacon and cabbage…’but it tastes even better with English mustard’ as Collins said, as he loved it.
Our hero met a premature end however.

Apologies for this folks but since I was called “Childish” I think I should respond

Ciaran, when I was accused of being Anti-British (for mentioning the fact that the city went into decline after the act of Union) I was mearly stating a historic fact. If the city did not decline in importance and I had said that it had, and blamed the British for this, this I would have been expressing an anti-British sentiment. I mearly stated a fact.

My second point was that we are culturally influenced by our nearest neighbour – to deny that this is the case is wrong. For me personaly to be anti-British, without acknowledging the daily impact that Britain has on our lives is hypocritical. I believe in treating the UK as an equal partner in Europe, not a former coloniser, an equal and as such we should not defer to anyone. I am not nor never plan to be neither pro nor anti British.

I welcome the fact that we are influenced by probably all European cultures, long may it continue, and long may we continue to influence other European cultures.

I have no interest in the continuence of this argument as it is futile.

Now – I hope that clears everything up and we can get back to discussing architecture.

here here!