Contempt!!!!!!!

Metro’s been cancelled full stop – just to make your blood boil further J. Seerski.

‘Ah sure it’ll do rightly.’ Sums up this country.. always excuses, all bloddy talk, no action…

Cr*p infrastructure, corrupt politicians, p*ssed off tourists, quiet natives…. nothing gets done, nothing will.

The crazy thing is people tolerate it..

This country is a bloody joke!

If only all those reclaim the street kids would actually carry our some proper protests (as opposed to just having a pathetic aimless doss around one sunday a year and then thinking they’re great).

Really though, some form of non-fatal guerilla activity is probably the only way to go. Or else we need someone to dress up in a cape and repeatadly throw pies at people in charge…

me – I’m far too apathetic, so I’m part of the problem. the most I ever did was think bad thoughts at dublin bus, and adopt a “no tipping” policy when I felt the taxi drivers were striking in an unreasonable manner.

so – what other ways can we all find of saying “you’re bloody crap so you are”.

still though, we make good whiskey 😉

are you really a bookbinder???

Federalism, Decentralise, local government with tax raising powers, only fair way of government, badly needed in Ireland. Look to Germany, Spain, Australia, New Zealand to name but a few.

erm… yep fjp. did my 4 years sniffing glue allright … ahh, happy memories, someday i shall return to it.

In reality, we (or rather the powers that be) are utterly incapable of operating a nation or state. Its as simple as that. The only time anything was done properly in this country was under British control.
Not meaning to bore the arse of you, but when the Home Rule Bill was finally drafted in London in the 1880s, the main reason it was rejected was because a majority of MPs belived that the Irish were simply incapable of self-governance, and dissapointingly they have been proved utterly correct.
And it is manifest most evidently in our built surroundings.

Whatever about the rest of the country, I can never ever see Dublin being fixed, ever, with regard to architecture, transport, planning regulations, street furniture, housing, historic appriciation, litter, rezoning, street lighting/floodlighting, the Liffey, the Quays, Stephen’s Green, North Inner City…….. and fundamental civic pride.

I love this city, I’ve been studyng it’s development for years, I know virtually every building, lamppost and structure in the city centre, when they were built, why and by whom. Which is why I’m so constantly disgusted, so dissillusioned, so sick of hoping, so tired of waiting, so ready to give up on this place we call a city. I’m not quite there yet, but purely through nievity.

On the other hand… at least you’re not a prime terrorist target, as we are in London.

” The only time anything was done properly in this country was under British control. “

really Graham ? penal laws, plantations, ethnic cleansing, the halving of our population …

you might wan’t to revise that one …
those cities in Ireland still under Brittish control are hardly anything to get excited about …

Oh come on, poor little paddys still suffering at the mercy of the Brits in Derry & Belfast? I ‘m obviously referring to our built surroundings. Can you imagine the physical state of our cities, towns & villages had the English not assumed control. Can you just imagine… Do you honestly think that the Irish would have been capable of building in their own unique style, or indeed built at all, sure we could’nt even do it in the 20th century!

Well this is all unprovable. The English certainly didn’t perfect their design skills on the first go, so it’s unfair to assume that we’re less skilled than they are. Discussing a “what might have happened” on this matter wuold surely just turn into a hypothetical points scoring match.

And were English designs really that unique? I thought a lot of it was based on classical designs…

fjp

We sure make good whiskey… and the best is made by our cousins in Ulster’s Bushmills…the one and only Black Bush.

I’m not sure the Uk has always got it right in terms of urban management…apart from high profile areas their architectural standards have been found wanting, the transport systems have been let fall into near ruin and many urban centres suffer from blighted areas. However, it did strike me last night as I stood on Charing Cross road waiting for a bus that things are better there than in Dublin and at least their streetscapes are less cluttered, built to higher density and much more functional and accessable than in Dublin

Can’t remember the exact quote but Michael Scott used to say that Ireland was at the very end of a chain of architectural events that began in classical/Renaissance Mediterranean and slowly worked its way across Europe.

I think he saw Modernism in broadly similar terms.

Although the Brits are good at architecture, they tend not to invent styles. They’re pretty near the end of the architectural chain, too.

Possible exceptions are Arts and Crafts, and high-tech. British-originated? Discuss.

Architecturally, what went wrong – I blame the Diaspora of the 40s and 50s, the talent left the country (bankrupt, repressive catholic backwater) and hence we were left with the “sure it’ll do approach” which we are only starting to climb back out of

Wow, Wow, Wow, lets stop beating ourselves up here. Yes I have to agree, things are not perfect. For example I was back home last weekend and I thought the litter problem was even worse than I thought it was last time I was home.

However we are making strides, Dublin has become a far more pleasing city to visit than it was 10 years ago. If we keep beating ourselves up about how bad things are we’ll get nowhere. We must look at the positives and build upon them.

It’s a typical Irish reaction to assume that we’re the worst at everything – we’re not !

I’m not saying we’re perfect but we’re getting better all the time. If your living away from home like I am you’ll know what i’m talking about.

foreign opinion – your country is great and your people are even more… and I’m not talking as a tourist who has been there only once for a long weekend…

In general we also think we are always worst then the others (except Spain of course!) but people are starting to look at their life quality, wonderful weather and land, national culture, music, arts, modest but good architecture, etc. and asking themselfs “WHY?”…

Originally posted by Graham Hickey
Oh come on, poor little paddys still suffering at the mercy of the Brits in Derry & Belfast? I ‘m obviously referring to our built surroundings. Can you imagine the physical state of our cities, towns & villages had the English not assumed control. Can you just imagine… Do you honestly think that the Irish would have been capable of building in their own unique style, or indeed built at all, sure we could’nt even do it in the 20th century!

very insulting tone there Graham, patronising too. I hate to have this as my first post on this site that i have been lurking on for a week or two but needs must.

I really think there was no need to go into the old ‘poor paddy’ routine, surely another way to express your feelings/ opinions.

Ireland has a lot to be proud of and to drag britain into it as you did, in such a petty competitive way says more about your attitude to the old oppressors than any other persons opinions of the east west conflict.

I am not an architecture student, nor and architect but someone with a love of good archtiecture and a great interest in the developing fortune of ireland and its appearance.

I feel this does not preclude me from giving an opinion on our state though and hope this will be respected here.

As another poster wrote, It is difficult to argue what Ireland would be like were it not for british involvement, but Im sure it would not
be impossible to put forward a good argument that Ireland would be better off without that part of its history. What would Japan be like were it not for Pearl Harbour? Would it have such an incredible state? Architecture?

It is foolish in the exteme to say that all Ireland’s problems would be solved now and the our skyline, street system other archtiecture related issues would be greatly improved if we were still under british rule.

I do not wish to turn this to a political debate, but feel that such childish, ignorant posts should not be on an intelligent forum that this often is.

CiaranO

If we were still under direct control from London, we’d be a provincial shithole like Bradford or Sheffield. So be proud to be Irish lads, we need strong leadship from within (better than the gobshites we have) not blaming the British etc which we have been doing for the last 80+ years.

I agree……………but maybe we should start building edifices that will distiguish us as unique from provincial British cities….that will reflect us Irish as a modernized civilized culture far away from the parochial gombeenism of the past.
There is a rich gamut of styles there to use as examples.

Originally posted by CiaranO

I am not an architecture student, nor and architect but someone with a love of good archtiecture and a great interest in the developing fortune of ireland and its appearance.

I feel this does not preclude me from giving an opinion on our state though and hope this will be respected here.
CiaranO

thats what the site is for
dive in

It may appear to ex-pats that Ireland and Dublin are getting better – it certainly looks better (litter apart), and is more socially diverse, secular, confident etc. On balance, it’s definitely a better place than it was, unless you were in a coma up to the mid-90s.
But there are a couple of glaring exceptions that threaten to negate everything else.

-Transport, public and private. Dublin is in danger of ceasing to function as a working city. It actually ceased to function a month or so ago when a few extra inches of rain fell.

-Housing. Professional couples on good wages are forced to live like trappist monks to afford massive mortgages for either a kennel-sized city flat or some bland semi-D in Naas or Balbriggan. If you’re single, forget it, you’re renting for life. And there are no rent controls.

If you cared to read a little more in depth Ciaran, you will find that I used the term ‘poor little paddys’ merely as a response to the suggestion by another contributer that Northern cities are miserable places to live as a result of the British. As for your remark about being pettily competitive, I never mentioned or even suggested anything about being competitive.
I accept that I have created the impression of the Brits being perfect, of course they are far from it, and that a lot of the architecture they left is not unique, albeit impressive. What I really meant to say is that there appears to be little vision over here, great foresight, or a desire to aspire to asthetically pleasing civic spaces, despite some exceptions, and not just in comparison with the UK but with most European countries. Things are changing, although very slowly.

Regarding the initial posting complaining of lack of metro service and sufficient infrastructure etc. Why do visitors always presume that Dublin should have these systems already in place?

There is an expectation by european visitors that metros and an efficient infrastructure are standard features in cities across the globe.
This, of course, is nonsense. Dublin is not built for the population explosion of recent years, and its infrastructural shortcomings are a result of poor planning procedures implemented by british planners in the 18th/19th centuries.
It is home-spun hokem to suggest that urban planning would have suffered in Dublin had it not been for British rule. It is stereo-typing of the most ignorant nature, and such typical right-wing rants are not suitable on an architecture website.

The dilemma is that prosperity has brought about a demand for services that were never required throughout the majority of the 20th century. Anyway, like it or lump it. Besides, the author of the initial complaint should count himself lucky to be in Ireland at all, because were it not for the recent economic boom he most definitely would never have visited Ireland. Now that he has – all he can do is complain. To you sir I brandish a red card!

One of the things that occured to me on a recent visit to Belfast is what a miserable place it really is.

A glaring omission from the above postings is that, regardless of architecture, if Dublin was still under British rule, can you imagine the type of terrorist activity that would be common place. Surely many of the anglo-architectural gems would have been obliterated by an guerilla war campaign 100 times more intense than up north.

Given this logic all British-architectural enthusiasts can count their lucky stars that we live in a republic.

Pundit, I think you’ll find that if you read back over the various plans proposed for Dublin from the late 19th century through the early 20th century and up to 1960s, many of them did call for Metro systems and advanced traffic management schemes.
I recommend a quick perusal of Ruth McManus’s recent Dublin 1910-1940: Shaping The City & Suburbs to see just how often developments to the tram system that existed and even the possibility of an underground network were suggested.
British planners were of course in charge in 17/1800s but not during 1900s when almost all mass transportation networks were actually built. Britain can not be blamed for our present traffic problems because the planning decisions they made related to an era pre-automobile.

I think I am right in saying that it was the irish government who shut down various lines all across the country like the harcourt / broadstone and all tram lines in dublin for example. only now are we re-opening them (luas) and many still more will remain closed, like the old line out to navan. And still to this day they give less money to irish rail and expect them to provide a better service!!

Its a joke, all i can do is laugh when i think about it because there’s no point in getting mad/frustrated…..

I think the reason why Dublin may not be that distinguishable from most British (or many European) cities – is that it is the same size as those cities because Ireland (& capital), as a nation, is tiny compared to most other European countries e.g. Britain, Germany, France, The Netherlands etc.
On a historical note – you’ll find that many colonial powers would have considered their ‘dominions’ to be ‘incapble of self-governance’ – that is part of the standard colonial dialogue.

Urban planning – well, we tried some ‘new towns’ (e.g. Tallagh) although unlike our European neighbours like the Netherlands & UK, we made half-arsed attempts at it i.e. we cleared the ‘slum’ areas of the inner city & settled their populations into vast areas of low-density housing expecting personal cars to be the preffered & logical method of transport (cul-de-sac patterns of streets mitigated against good public bus access & pedestrian flows for catchment areas).
No attempt it seems was made to establish new town centres and industries etc. or, introducing mixes of various socio-economic groups.

Public transport – i personally get annoyed when politicians complain about having to spend money on ‘subvention’ of rail and bus services – i view said as.. Public Services.. and, as such, should not have ‘operating at a loss’ as a major consideration – i.e. how often and when, are stretches of roads and sewer lines expected to ‘turn a profit’???
Public transport, like above mentioned examples, are part of the national infrastructure that help keep the engine of the economy running – the direct & indirect benefits are not always immediately tangible e.g. people travelling on trains are not travelling in cars contributing to air & noise pollution, traffic accidents etc. etc but those benfits are not apparent in simply Irish Rail ticket returns. Other Euopean countries spend a lot more on their ‘subvetions’ than we do.
I do not think Ireland can afford to become as -lets say Socialist leaning as other countries howerver, i think that we’re sliding too close to the more British/ Amerian like profit-driven & car dominated society – I think Ireland can even less afford that particular approach e.g. rail services, though vital, are less likely due to population characteristics, to make a viable profit in privatisation – i.e. maintain as a national (infrastructure) service. Railfreight maybe an exception.