Spencer dock development

Well it was fasttracked, so it’s the usual five storeys plus setback boardroom level.

From the Indo:

The present scheme by STW is hardly a radical departure. Nevertheless the scheme by Kevin Roche was really awful stuff churned up by his C-team. It seems the scale and nature of huge developments such as this are the main problem. What architects would people have nominated instead to enclose the hundreds of thousands of square feet of Spencer dock? Would it have a vastly different result if the same programme stayecd the same ?

The problem with Ireland is that there is no architectural planning, just zoning. Developers get hold of a site a try to cram as much square feet as possible (wouldn’t you) And the usual fight begins. If there were an existing plan for this area giving indications of scale and amenities to be provided things might be somewhat different

People in on this site seem to want tall buildings in Dublin as if “tallness” was a quality in itself. Tall building can be just as mediocre as groundscrapers but because of their conspicuousness they can do a lot more damage. They tend to become landmarks and affect far more peoples live than just their users. For this reason they should be vetted thoroughly for quality. But the problem in Ireland is that there is no vetting for architectural quality excepting through competitions. This also is the reason how scemes such as Spencer Docks come about.

Exactly there should be a Q Mark for architectural quality …far too much critical debate revolves around height..to the extenth that it diverts attention away from the architectural quality of whats proposed….. the legacy of the the last 10 years is just largely the same bland apartment blocks and offices been repeated.. simple to design, build.. also architectural competitions are few and far between.

From looking at the image above it seems to be that this building will be on the site proposed for the conference centre. Can we take it that the NCC has been shelved?

…….and which looks more appealing………..Roches proposal of the NCC I think with it’s glass cylinder

That’s a confusing picture. I know it was in the Indo but where did it come from?
The building behind the bus must be an existing building. The only building even a bit like that on Spencer dock is the North Wall Station beside the British Rail Hotel.

So it looks like that new grey thing is built on top of Campions bar – which was listed as protected in the EIS. Leaving room for the convention center to fill the remainder of the site to the left.

Or is this fragment meant to be further up the quay towards Castleforbes?

EW, that’s exactly where I understand it to be, on the site of Campions.

“Treasury Holdings have received planning permission for a 300,000sq ft building at Spencer Dock which will house anchor tenant PricewaterhouseCooper’s new headquarters building. The new HQ is scheduled for occupancy by early 2004 in place of their existing Dublin offices at Wilton Place on Georges Quay.

Mr Tincknell said that the combination of DDDA’s foresight and planning, Scott Tallon Walker’s imaginative design and the range of transport facilities serving the site has attracted PricewaterhouseCoopers as anchor tenant which is an enormous vote of confidence in the development. “We are actively negotiating with other potential tenants, Irish and International, who have expressed a strong interest in our plans for Spencer Dock” commented Mr Tincknell.
Potential tenants at Spencer Dock will be able to avail of DDDA’s fast-track planning process for buildings designed within their development planned requirements. The Spencer Dock team will design and customise high quality buildings to client specifications with particular emphasis on the demands of new technologies. “

Either way the proposed building is an awful looking concoction is’nt it ……….it looks far too fussy with all those horizontal lines and far too stumpy…………It looks shit putting it plainly and in no way will it be a landmark as it looks quite similar to the other shit that STW are building in this vacinity…….ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz………..Boring!
The way STW has a monopoly down the docks almost reminds one of the political skullduggery, backhanders etc …..regarding the planning laws that is now in the news…….How they have the overall say in the design and look of the place is quite strange (allegedly)

GregF! surely you arent suggesting that there are stakeholders within the Dockland development which have no concern for the creation of an architectural legacy in the area and are only out to make a fast buck (ala Mohair Suits brigade) Shame on you! Think of those farseeing city fathers of the 1960s who gave us such beautiful buildings as those which now line Tara Street or O’Connell St…

Looking at the IFSC extention a few days ago I was thinking about how likely it is that in 20-30 years time it’ll all be torn down to be replaced by something,…. well…..good. Personally I think its odds-on to happen, can anyone else see this happening? The same goes for whats now being proposed for Spencer Dock i.e. more of the same boredom. If so surely this is a major indictment of the inadequacies of the DDDA and their lack of any kind of ambition whatsoever.

The funny thing is that they seem to be succeeding
with manor street now the nci is open. It feels much much like a street and less like an industrial estate than the original ifsc complex. the new square will be nice, the only pity is that the apartment block on the north edge is poor and worse in the way it addresses the building to either side.

Well to clarify a little, I’m most annoyed by the buildings that front the river. Apart from the Clarion Quay apartments which aren’t too bad, the rest of that row of buildings are awful. With a bit of luck the Citibank block will be gone in about 25 years time, the same goes for the other office blocks (I think Commerzbank are in one of them).

I can’t help but think that not only should these buildings have been at least twice as high given the width of the river there but that some sort of competition to design them be undertaken, rather than modelling the whole place on a Rice Krispies box. At least that way they’d provide some kind of focal point rather than the black-hole they are now.

Just a thought, but doesn’t the lack of height and therefore space in the city-centre have to be made up for elsewhere? i.e. the suburbs and urban sprawl. Now I know the mantra about high rise not necessarily equalling high-density but surely a little more leniency, especially in the relatively remote docklands wouldn’t go astray? Do the planners think endless Rice Krispie boxes look great or something?

Anyway, I’m beginning to think I’m obsessed by the rubbish ultra-conservative planners we have in this country. Hopefully they’ll get their act together soon or I might go mental altogether.

I totally agree with you Blain……..the docks are rubbish, aka mediocre…..The buildings in this part of the city…. aka the capital of Ireland….. especially along the quays as you have said are far too stumpy for the width of the Liffey as it widens…………
The buildings are the same as what you get in sub-urban industrial estates, ie Sandyford, Ballycoolin, etc …………..not metropolitan city scapes…….a typical major Irish f**k up on reflection………….and it’s sad that we may never see in our lifetime Dublin docks looking spectacularly significant….as like what you find in other major cities……..but mediocre, provincial and insignificant….and nobody in the Irish general public cares I suppose…… A culturally ignorant Taoiseach does’nt help either……..Is their no politician in Ireland of the calibre and insight of Mitterand?……A person who stands for high architectural and civic principles…I guess not….bog standards apply across the board…….a pig in a pokery and Haughey was a skullduggerer too as is the case.
It would be good if a firm of barristers with a wordly achitectural insight could sue the DDDA and Scott Tallon Walker for their misconceived and unartistic plans for Dublin City Docks….but that is stuff of fairytales I suppose.

I agree – Mayor street is indeed coming on well. It is even starting to have a european, neighbourhood, community feel. This is already enhanced by the opening up of the square at the college and will be further improved by the LUAS. It still has a long way to go but does seem to be learning from mistakes made in IFSC phase one and other business parks.

AS far as I know the height of buildings on this street are restricted to allow light get to the street. There are many pictures in the EIS and Master plan which show the light angles, time of day, shadows etc. It seems to me that if there is to be light on the street for a reasonable length of time during the day, a balance with the height needs to be reached. I don’t know what rules were used but the balance seems about right and is also the balance point they reached in a lot of post war european development. Given our climate, people don’t see shade as an asset. For the street to be lively and develop the busy community feel, it needs to be attractive – sunlight is one of the factors that needs to be considered. If you increase the heights then the road would have to be in shade or wider – which would lead to an empty feel.

In this context, the suggestion to double the height of all the buildings fronting the river seems ridiculous to me. That really is just height for heights sake. Surely for any mixed development it is vital to get the street level right and build to enhace that rather than build a wall of high buildings on the south of a site and hope someone wants to live and work in the shade behind them..?

Tall can be good, but this environment in moderation. I hope there will be the odd high quality tall tower introduced down there. But as there will be a higher proportion of 5, 6, 7 story buildings built I’d love to know why they appear so hard to do. The crap that’s there is not bad because its 5 stories – It’s bad cos they bore. Do the talented people refuse to work on buildings this height? or is there a general lack of talent in Ireland? I was trying to think of some buildings this size that were well done, and can only think of Fingal co.co and Herbert park at the moment. Surely there’s some more.

But you must remember it is a cityscape and buildings cast shadows…….we don’t get much sunlight either in Ireland……It is crazy to adhere to something so stringent as that…..ie buildings casting shadows ….
I don’t want to see souless windswept dark chasms of streets either…..but one must agree with what already has been said that the Dublin docklands could be of more achitectural significance . It is featureless ….and so bland……….so provincial.

People complain of noise and crowds as in the case of the Temple Bar and Croke Park folk ….they should realise that they are living in a city with all the hustle and buslte it brings …If they don’t like it then they should move out to the countryside or suburbs where they can have their garden barbecues and all the peace they need.

Exactly, there are always trade-offs if you want the conveniences of city living – except it seems in Ireland. Here they seem to be quite keen on covering the entire country in concrete just so they can appease some nimby protestors who don’t want their kitchen window “overshadowed” or whatever the latest buzzword is.

Just look at London, a city with a similar climate, hours of sunshine and all the rest as Dublin, the general height and bulk of buildings there is far greater than it is in Dublin (and they mostly look good too) yet most people I’ve heard seem to love the place architecturally and I’m not talking about Canary Wharf sized developments either.

The fact is that whats going on in the Dublin docklands right now could pass for developments in Grimsby or Swansea or Stoke-on-trent or some other such backwater in England. Do we want to aspire to be more like London or more like the places I just mentioned? Apparently the DDDA want the latter – if only they could be removed from power – even An Bord Pleanala seem to be gradually being dragged kicking and screaming out of the 19th century if their permission for the Tara Street building is anything to go by.

Tara Street does look like being great. I too am delighted that An Bord Pleanala may be getting realistic.
However I think the hustle and bussle refered to earlier needs to be one of the aims of a city development. I’m just not sure that building high will necessarily provide it. THese things need to be planned for.

Has anyone seen the incredibly stylish prefab that
is being constructed on the quay side just to the west of the rail head, it looks like it might be a site office.

Probably better than the shite that’s going up

Some of which can be seen at

http://www.reflectingcity.com/07501.htm

It’s a good site and well worth a look!

That prefab probably is whats going up. The DDDA would’ve thought long and hard about how it might overshadow some weeds growing beside a kerb, how once in a while a car might have to drive up to it, how it might actually be visible from someones house and how it might ruin the uninterrupted view of the wastelands (the IFSC extension) from the sea, but eventually decided to be brave and controversial and let it go ahead, turning down the alternative, more conservative proposal of a five-man dome tent which was heavily pushed by some members of the board.

Those poor DDDA guys will be tossing in their beds tonight wondering when the torrent of protest from local residents will arrive, still they’ve allowed yet another prefab be built in whats supposed to be our capital city – Other cities will be green with jealosy.

Appropriate use of the word “tossing” methinks