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@justnotbothered wrote:
The plans are absolute rubbish, I’m old enough to remember the many promises which came with Cruises street, Arthurs Quay Shopping centre and Steamboat quay to be as easily impressed by some lego inspired rubbish flung up on the river. It’s so utterly out of character with it’s surrounds that I struggle to see how you can see any merit in it.
I think essentially that is the point. I wouldnt go as far as to say that the plans are rubbish because there are elements of this design that have some merit, namely the curved glass frontage. I dont have an issue with the loss of the existing buildings either, because in fairness they are extremely modest structures, with very little architectural significance.
Ultimately it is Sarsfield Bridge which stands to be the big loser here, the more I look at the plans, all I really see is this proposed structure basically giving the two fingers to the bridge. It just dosent pay it enough respect, the design of the bridge facing elevation isnt strong enough, it just looks like its cocking its ugly arse at it!
You really do get a sense of deja vu here. How many times have we seen proposals like this being championed as some kind of a massive leap forward for the city?
Admittedly Im not old enough to remember the development of Arthurs Quay or Cruises Street so I can only go on what I’ve read and what I’ve seen. The decision to allow the demolition of Cruises Hotel in particular was highly contentious and a huge gamble. Subsequently, the novelty of Cruises Street wore off pretty quickly and most people would agree that the city is now worse off for that decision.
I know its difficult to directly compare these two situations but there are definitely similarities all the same. We cant keep making the same mistakes over and over again and I think recent history would tell us to be very wary of this current proposal!
Just after noticing that RTE are currently screening a series about prominent Irish streets called “On the Street Where You Live.”
Tonights programme (RTÉ One, 7.30pm) features O Connell Street and is said to include previously unseen footage of the Todds fire amongst other things.
Could be interesting!
@gunter wrote:
I agree with you there vitruvious, and I had thought that what you describe was the way that shopping centre design was heading. I thought we were moving away from enclosed malls into a new ‘sheltered street’ future.
The internal ‘mall’ with the out-sized glazed entrance on the corner of Patrick St./Ellen St. doesn’t even run all the way through to Bank Place! The big glass box from the images of Bank Place isn’t the northern end of the ‘mall’ spilling out onto the ‘sculpture garden overlooking the river’, but instead is just a department store, or ‘anchor tennant!
Gunter, I was slightly bemused to say the least when I had a look at the floor plans. Like you, I had assumed that the mall snaked its way through the complex from the Ellen Street entrance right through to the Bank Place “plaza area”.
The developers have been making lots of noise about how the opera centre will provide “an attractive new pedestrian thoroughfare accessed through “two landmark entrances”. What utter rubbish! The mall stops well short of Bank Place and ends as you say, at the entrance to the main anchor tenant. I cant believe the planners didnt ask for this to be amended!
This issue could easily be rectified by shifting the anchor unit down to the Ellen Street/Michael Street corner (seen in green below). They could then extend the mall through to Bank Place and split the space originally set aside for the anchor into smaller units.
Altered Floor plan
This is just another flaw in what has been an absolutely shambolic attempt to put together a city centre shopping complex. I had a read through the architectural heritage assessment and also the response to concerns about the demolition of period buildings.
I dont think I’ve ever read a more pathetic attempt to justify the loss of historic building stock. For those of you who havent seen it, it basically uses a whole pile of a waffle in a desperate attempt to beef up an extremely weak argument, that the loss of the Ellen Street Georgians is essential in creating a vibrant streetscape!:confused: This tripe was supposedly written by a professional planning consultant.:o
Probably the best of the lot though, was the fact that they used the example of Cruise’s Hotel as a precedent for the demolition of buildings of historical and architectural significance. I think everyone would agree, that was a horrible mistake!:(
@WelshinLimerick wrote:
The O’C and William street public realm works are dependant on the Orbital Route as well as the Tunnel, which is designed to reduce traffic flow in the city centre streets. Bedford Row and Thomas Street were not so trafficked so were able to proceed.
The tunnel is a vital piece of infrastructure for the entire city and the orbital route is obviously important in terms of efficiently managing traffic flow within the city centre. However I dont buy into the suggestion that the remodelling works cannot procede until those projects are up and running. In the last few years, both O Connell Street in Dublin and Patrick Street in Cork (both heavily trafficed routes) underwent comprehensive remodelling jobs so I fail to see why we cant manage the same!
I dont think that O’Connell street needs to be closed off anyway, a pedestrian friendly street would be far better. William Street and the City Quays are in the most need of TLC if you ask me, O’Connell street should not go ahead until proper money is available, even if thats 6-10 years.
6-10 YEARS!:eek: Ah come off it, could you imagine the state of the place if it was left that long? This remodelling project is already long overdue, it needs to be done asap!
The quayside from Sarsfield Bridge to Shannon Bridge is in poor shape alright, its really shown up by the works that have been completed across the river on O Callaghan Strand especially.
Work was supposed to start last Autumn on this section but with all the cutbacks in funding, Im not sure what the current status is.
On another note, anyone know what’s going on at John’s Square. Images would be nice 🙂
And what’s happening on Clancy Strand?:confused:A boardwalk is being installed on Clancy Strand between the Treaty Stone and Curragour Falls. Posts about this and St John’s Square can be found on page
90Not necessarily. Obviously the new pedestrianised zone between William Street and Roches Street cant be implemented until after the tunnel is opened in the Summer/Autumn of 2010. But this area (specifically the junction of Bedford Row/Thomas Street) is also to be the location for the proposed “central iconic feature”, so it was always due to come on stream later than the other works.
There was very little stopping them from going ahead with the remainder of the work between Denmark Street and Mallow Street. I know hindsight is a great thing but the O Connell Street and William Street projects really should have been done while the grant money was flowing.
The City Council have given out numerous start-up dates over the last couple of years. Indeed in their Part 8 report on the remodelling plans, they stated that the O Connell Street/William Street improvements would begin in 2008!:confused:
As the citys main thoroughfare, O Connell Street is in an absolutely deplorable state, the pavement (amongst other things) is in a state of acute degeneration and the so called public lighting just isnt good enough at this stage. All in all, it deserves a lot better!
@CologneMike wrote:
Pity that they blew € 83 million on a € 10 million sewerage pipe 😡
Id forgotten about that. The amount of money that was squandered on infrastructural projects over the “boom years” due to sheer incompetence is absolutely staggering. Of course back then, the attitude was “ah sure theres plenty more where that came from!”
We could certainly do with a slice of that €83 million now!
Gateway Innovation Fund deferral hits city orbital traffic system
Limerick City Council is looking at other ways to fund the proposed orbital route around Limerick city, following the elimination of funding for the project under the Gateway Innovation Fund.
Corbally residents who showed up for the first consultation meeting on the development of Limerick city last week were told by senior planner Kieran Reeves that funding from the scheme has been reduced to “nilâ€.
Limerick’s allocation of the €40 million funding expected to be distributed to gateway cities as part of the National Spatial Strategy had not been announced for 2009, but the council had earmarked its allocation for the orbital route.
The official line from Government is that funding from the GIF has been deferred leaving local authorities across the country with no choice but to defer capital infrastructure projects.
The pedestrianisation of O Connell Street was also due to be funded under the scheme but the money is not required until next year.
The pedestrianisation of Bedford Row, Thomas Street and Baker Place was funded by an urban renewal scheme which was replaced by the Gateway Innovation Fund. Officials at City Hall are confident that money will be found elsewhere to fund the orbital route and the project will not be unduly delayed.
Meanwhile, the public has been invited to make submissions on how they would like to see their locality and their city grow and develop at a series of consultation meetings across the city in the coming weeks.
The first meeting took place in Scoil Ide, Corbally. Residents who attended were told that the boundary division in Corbally was a serious issue when making decisions for the area. Decisions by Clare County Council in Corbally, Co Clare impact on any decisions made by the City Council in the Corbally area within the city boundary.
Mayor John Gilligan told the meeting that Limerick city has “three different retail strategies, three different housing strategies.†“Other cities have one, we have three,†he said, in reference to the city, county and Clare county councils.
© Limerick Leader
This is just pathetic really. The City Council announced plans for the upgrading of O Connell Street and William Street as far back as 2001. Yet here we are almost 8 years on and only 2 city centre streets have been completed.
Fair enough, Bedford Row and Thomas Street have been completely transformed but the two principle city centre streets are still thoroughly miserable. I dont think its an exaggeration to say that they are an absolute embarrassment at this stage!:(
Where do the council believe they are going to be able to find the funds needed to finance these projects?
Here we go.
I always knew our highly competent city councillors would do the right thing. Oh no wait, they havent!:rolleyes:
Go ahead for €20 million development of Limerick Boat Club (Live95fm)
The way has been cleared for a 20 million euro redevelopment of Limerick Boat Club.
Limerick City Councillors have voted to rezone Wellesley Pier at a specially convened meeting in City Hall today.
Earlier this week the current Limerick Boat Club structures were de-listed.
The Club President, Dermot Moloney has thanked the councillors for supporting the development which remains subject to certain conditions.
He says the new facilities will be important in revitalising the club`s popularity.
@gunter wrote:
The second intervention takes out the (admittedly altered) five storey structure beside the old Town Hall and also engulfs the adjacent laneway. Again this seems to me to be an unecessarilly aggressive move when more subtle options appear to be available.
Strange building that. I remember seeing a picture of the Town Hall and surrounding buildings from the late 19th or early 20th Century showing the above building with a stuccoed facade.
The only image I could find on the city museum site is attached below and dates from around 1930 or so. You can just about see that some features such as the decorative window surrounds have been removed so Im guessing it was around this time that the facade was demolished and replaced with the current rather odd arrangement?
Attached is a revised CGI of Rutland Street. The developers now intend to retain the 19th Century shopfront of the former Glynn’s Butchers while also exposing and restoring the brickwork underneath the cement at first floor level.
Also, the doorway of the former Bruce Bank is to be incorporated into the remodelled shopfront of No.4 Rutland Street.
An elaborately carved limestone doorcase, dated 1806, displaying detailing of the Doric order. The quality of which is an indication of the grandeur of the original building to which this doorcase belongs. While the loss of the structure is regrettable the re-insertion of the doorcase is a pleasant feature on the streetscape. (NIAH)
Fair enough but I think you have to judge each development separately. Riverpoint and the city central project have by and large been positive developments but there is a lot more at stake here with the plans for the boat club.
Its certainly not the worst proposal in the world but I just dont think its right for this extremely sensitive location. The developers can talk it up all they like but I believe it would totally overshadow and dominate Sarsfield Bridge and thats just not acceptable in my book!
Just on that picture you posted, its a pity those stone warehouses didnt survive. They could have made nice loft style apartments with restaurants/bars facing onto the Shannon.
They would’ve added a bit of character to the quays anyway compared to the nasty buildings on the site at the moment!
@CologneMike wrote:
34-41 Catherine Street ~ Catherine Street Courtyard
What’s the storey with the appeal?
It seems the appellant owns one of the adjacent properties on Mallow Street and is concerned about the impact of the development on their business.
The Department of Environment & Heritage have also expressed concerns about the demolition with facade retention of the 3 terraced houses on Catherine Street.
The appeal is supposed to be decided by the 19th of March but will probably be put back a few weeks!
@CologneMike wrote:
Last-gasp bid on Limerick Boat Club plan (Limerick Leader) 21 January 2009
But Michael Daly of Fordmount Developments, the joint applicants of the project, said he was disappointed that the amount of capital the company have invested in the city “didn’t seem to cut any ice” with Mayor of Limerick Cllr John Gilligan, whom he met last Thursday.
“Everyone I’ve spoken to said it’s a fantastic project, but I had hoped to get a better hearing from the mayor. I had hoped that what we’re spending in the city as a small company, and with the plans we have for the future, that it would have counted for more,” said Mr Daly.
Thats a great line!
So let me get this straight. The fact that Mr Daly has already invested in the city gives him the right to deface the riverfront and ruin the setting of Sarsfield Bridge just so he can rake in some more cash!:mad:
Unbelievable stuff altogether!
At long long last Limerick City Council have got their act together and launched a proper digital planning system, so you can now view the planning files online!:eek:
Attached are some of the scanned CGI’s from the Opera Centre application.
#1. Ellen Street elevation
#2. Bank Place entrance & plaza area
#3. Rutland Street elevation
#4. Glazed entrance feature to replace existing Bruce House.
Just a couple of quick observations, That glazed infill building adjacent to the old town hall is much worse that I first thought and those modern shopfronts on the Georgian period buildings look absolutely ridiculous!
Decision on Limerick’s Milk Market put back
By Anne Sheridan
A DECISION on the proposed multi-million redevelopment of the Milk Market has been postponed for another four to six weeks by An Bord Pleanala.
The national planning authority were due to come to a decision on the development by January 12th, but said the inspector’s report of the site, taking into account the appeals made by both sides, has yet to be compiled.This is the second time An Bord Pleanala have delayed making a decision on the case due to the volume of appeals before the board.
A decision was due on November 13 last year, but Market Trustees chairman David O’Mahony said at that stage he was optimistic that the plans will be viewed favourably and despite the current economic crisis that funding will still be made available for the development.
Planning permission was granted by Limerick City Council last June for the redevelopment of the Milk Market – a protected structure- which could see the market open six days a week, include a 120-seat restaurant and the market itself would also be covered with a weatherproofed tensile.
However, a petition was signed by over 100 people to maintain the Milk Market as an open-air market and save it from “becoming a shopping mall.”
The Thomond Archaeological and Historical Society and one of the traders, Marie Hussey who operates the Green Acres Cheese Shop, in the Milk Market have made submissions to An Bord Pleanala regarding the development.
Ms Hussey has stated that the application “will have major implications for the quality of the market environment and the economic viability of current traders.” Having traded in Limerick for 25 years, she believes 70 per cent of her fellow traders are also concerned about the proposed changes to the market.
However, Mr O’Mahony said the market trustees have submitted a very substantial report to An Bord Pleanala, rebutting much of the content of the objectors.
He said they have had ongoing discussions with stall holders, and have been “heartened” by the feedback they’ve received.
Mr O’Mahony added that a few months delay could be quite prudent in light of the building environment and economic slowdown.
“Once a decision comes back we should be ready to roll within three months,” he said.
This is just a rough sketch I slapped together just to give people an idea of the scale of the opera centre and the impact it would have on the streetscape if it was to proceed in its current form.
It’s pretty dramatic!
@GrahamH wrote:
And a further example of where unregulated retailers get their way…
Why is it called the Opera Centre?
Simply because the 19th Century Soprano Catherine Hayes was born at 4 Patrick Street. It’s still a silly name though!
@gunter wrote:
If the demolition of a complete ‘Georgian’ terrace, like that on Ellen Street, was ruled out, the way it should have been, the developers would have had to work around it, from day one!
The way I understand it, the ‘Opera Centre’ has already been permitted and that what is proposed now are revisions to the approved development, is that the position, does anyone know?
The complex has indeed been given the go ahead as per the planning application. Limerick City Council’s inability to safeguard buildings of historical or architectural merit is there for all to see! Once again they have given developers a licence to do as they please. It’s the city planners that should be dictating to the developers exactly what type of development is acceptable and not the other way around!
It’s interesting to note that under the original planning application back in late 2005, it was proposed to refurbish the Quins building (No. 9) and also to retain the facades of the Georgian terrace.
Here are some extracts from the An Bord Pleanala inspectors report (October 2006);
Ellen Street Appraisal
The laneway extending from the car park is book-ended on Ellen St. by the impressive 3-storey stone façade of No. 9, a building currently accommodating a public house/restaurant (which appeared closed) and a garden centre. This building is of visual quality but appears in need of refurbishment and rehabilitation.
To the north-west of the stone building, Nos. 4-8 Ellen St. comprise a generally intact Georgian terrace of good visual quality. Again, these buildings appear to be in need of significant rehabilitation, with extensive vegetation growing on their front facades, and with the original windows and shopfronts having been replaced by poor quality
and/or unremarkable modern interventions.CONDITIONS
The front façades of the Georgian period buildings No’s 4, 5 and 6 Ellen Street shall be conserved and repaired and shall be integrated into the new build at ground floor level, so as to be active streetfronts.
The Georgian period buildings No’s 7, 8 and 9 Ellen Street shall be conserved and repaired, including the shopfront of No. 8. No’s 7 and 8 shall be laid out so as to open onto the street and onto the internal circulation mall of the proposed development.
I’m sorry but all this talk about the demolition of one side of Ellen Street being in some way acceptable is absolute rubbish! Just how bland do you want this city to become? Demolition of historic streetscape is just not acceptable and especially not when its replacement is a garish plastic monstrosity. Anyone who thinks the proposal for Ellen Street is superior to the existing streetscape is seriously kidding themselves!
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I am in favour of the opera centre because I understand how important it is to the viability of the city centre but that dosent mean it should be allowed sweep all before it. I just don’t get why we are so reluctant to retain perfectly good historic buildings in this country, we just cant be arsed it seems!:mad:
Some of you over enthusiastic supporters of this project need to realise that there are other issues here apart from just extra shopping space!
Remember back in 1987 Arthurs Quay was heralded as some kind of masterpiece in urban planning. It also involved the demolition of a number of georgian buildings (admittedly in poor shape but not beyond repair). Fast forward 20 short years or so and they are planning to pull the whole thing down again. Some masterplan that was!:rolleyes:
You have to love the way they’ve photoshopped a couple of quaint litttle Georgian buildings into the background of the Ellen Street shot. In reality the site where those imaginary buildings stand is currently occupied by a surface car park and a service yard for a nightclub and a pub!:rolleyes:
Note also how the buildings on the right hand site of Ellen Street have had their pitched roofs magically re-instated at the click of a mouse!
Its just a pity they dont show a similiar interest in the buildings on the opposite side of the street!:mad:
I had a look at the DouglasWallace website and found this.
Its basically just a load of annoying PR nonsense but anyway…
Situated in the heart of Limerick’s historic quarter the Opera centre will lead the regeneration of a city centre in a state of decline. The proposal creates an outstanding retail experience and with the enthusiastic support of the all the stakeholders will provide a bright future for the people of Limerick.
Externally the proposal consists of ground level shop units opening onto the street, their display and activity expressed and reinforced through the glass and metal facade framed over with signage. The area above street level is punctured by a series of protruding lightboxes and retail display to create rhythm and verticality which help to break down the scale of the facade to match the urban grain of the surrounding Georgian plot pattern. The restaurant is emphasised by projecting out it’s double height space and this marked focus helps to express the associated activity and use externally to the streetscape.
The materials used are planar glazing, fritted opaque glazed cladding, aluminium cladding and white/grey limestone cladding with the opaque glass and aluminium cladding used primarily at ground floor level. Above, a banded cut ashlar stone is used, in keeping with stone used in buildings of importance in the Georgian streetscape. This stone façade is then punctured to preserve the lightness of the building.
Internally the circulation areas are treated more as a streetscape than a traditional mall. The glazed roof creates a visible connection with outside and provides large amounts of natural light. Walkways guide the visitor through the space with crossing bridges providing intrigue and invite use of the upper levels.
- 40,000m2 of retail space arranged over 3 No. levels with exciting ‘streetscape’ circulation areas
- create new public spaces which are sadly lacking in the existing city centre as nodal points along pedestrian circulation routes and form a relationship with the river
- inviting entrance areas encouraging visitors to enter the centre
- roof garden and food court for social and leisure activities increasing footfall to the upper l
evels - sculptural café pavilion in riverside public space
- 500 spaces in basement parking to enhance the parking already provided within the city centre.
Attached are mock-ups of the Bank Place and Ellen Street entrances along with the rooftop garden.:rolleyes:
Belltable Arts Centre, O Connell Street
08486
Permission for alterations to a Protected Structure consisting of:
(a) removal of existing asbestos cement roof above existing theatre & ancillary spaces: extension of enclosing walls upwards: construction of a new roof of amended profile at higher level: (b) strip out of existing Theatre including removal of stage, seating, raked floor, etc and installation of new theatre interior: (c) Renovation to Front of House, Gallery Cafe/Bar areas: (d) formation of enlarged ope between Georgian Building to front of site and Theatre Building to the rear; construction of small ‘atrium’ type space containing a new staircase and linking the rear of the Georgian Building with the renovated Theatre to the rear: (e) overall net increase in floor area of 68.6sqm inclusive of new enclosed plant room of 42.6 sqm at 2nd floor level to the rear.
69 O’ Connell Street
LimerickI believe all events are being held in the Red Cross Hall (behind Cecil Street) while the renovations are taking place.
I hope the planners insist on the removal of those plastic windows as well. The Belltable really should have known better in the first place!:rolleyes:
