Tuborg
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@CologneMike wrote:
Opera Shopping Centre a watershed for Limericks Georgian Heritage?
It all depends on the exact details of the new plans. Under the previous application, 4 & 5 Rutland Street were to be restored and retained in their entirety as was 5 Patrick Street (adjacent to Catherine Hayes house). Despite the acknowledgement that they remain very much intact, the older, 18th century buildings at 8 & 9 Rutland Street will have their interiors demolished with just the facades retained. Im curious to know how it was proposed to integrate the retained buildings into the new complex? The buildings in question are only in use as ground floor retail units with the upper floors housing old residential accomodation, now used for storage. What will become of these upper floors?, will they be gutted to provide more floorspace as CologneMike mentioned earlier?
Id also like to know what treatment buildings not initially part of the application (such as the old town hall) will receive. According to the city council website, only the facade of the building is protected, does this answer my question I wonder? The dearth of information on this highly important project is pretty shameful!:(
8/9 Rutland Street
4/5 Rutland Street
5 Patrick Street@Dan Sullivan wrote:
FYI, deadline for a decision from ABP on Jackson’s Turret /Clancy strand development put back to July 22nd
Apparently ABP are in the midst of a huge backlog of cases so I suppose this dosent come as much of a surprise. Despite this, the decision date for the proposed new bus station remains unchanged, its due to be decided this Wednesday.
Btw Dan, whats the latest on Curragour house, is it still standing?
Previous Posts: 1771 [url=”https://archiseek.com/content/showpost.php?p=78525&postcount=1772%5D1772%5B/url%5D
@jimg wrote:
This is a bit of fantasy I guess but ideally, I’d love to see the whole of Rutland and Patrick Streets restored sensitively with small boutique street facing units. I’d like two new intersecting pedestrian streets permeating the block – these would be lined with fronts to ultra-modern larger unit as are required by many retailers these days. Some underground parking should be provided of course but by facing and integrating into the grain of the city, such a development would provide synergy with all the surrounding streets promoting redevelopment all around.
I couldnt agree more. When the rumours of a “huge redevelopment” of the yard behind Patrick/Rutland Street began circulating about 3 years ago, I had visions of a new pedestrian thoroghfare extending from Bank Place to Ellen Street lined with shops, restaurants etc. What was I thinking though, that was way too ambitious, this is Ireland after all, we do everything arseways here!:( The announcement of an uninspiring, introverted shopping mall came as little surprise.
What really gets me though is how much of a pushover Limerick City Council can be when it comes to dealing with developers. We’ve seen far too many developer led projects in the recent past, with inevitable consequences. For the last number of years, the City council has been implementing a programme of pedestrianisation for city centre streets. Their city centre strategy also stresses the importance of “live frontages” in attracting more footfall into the city centre. As jimg said, we’ve already seen the benefits of this type of approach on Bedford Row/Thomas Street. The development plan for the Aurthurs Quay area also proposes the replacement of the abject failure that is Arthurs Quay sc (the opera centre of 1988) with a series of interconnecting pedestrian streets and public spaces. Why then are they accepting such a flawed and discredited formula in the shape of the opera centre?
The pedestrianised shopping area would, on the whole provide a much more balanced development. Important aspects of the citys georgian heritage would be retained while modern units would also be provided for retail. 1980s developments such as bruce house and the aib bank could still be replaced as is currently proposed. The aerial image shows there is ample space for such a development. Entrances could be formed at Bank Place, Michael Street, the laneway between Rutland & Patrick Street and potentially through the concealed archway on Ellen Street.
Attached: Opera centre site & Arthurs Quay masterplan.
The aerial photography also illustrates the brutality of Healy Partners office and retail development at 103/4 O Connell Street. This lump of a building smashes straight through what was a fine uniform Georgian terrace. Limerick City Council initially refused to allow the demolition of the two Georgian structures however something obviously changed, maybe they fell down “accidentally†during construction. The sheer bulk of the side elevation facing Lower Cecil Street is absolutely ridiculous, especially considering the low-rise character of this portion of the street. No doubt this elevation is caked in beautiful sandstone cladding just like the front.:rolleyes:
Facade
@CologneMike wrote:
Tuborg, curious to see how it will fit in with the Roches hanging gardens redevelopment next door? Any images about?
Five floors is probably excessive here considering the proximity of the proposed structure to the hanging gardens. In all the times I’ve passed this area I never took any notice of the corner structure whatsoever, it was always the hanging gardens that stole my attention. However a bland, utilitarian office block here would detract severely from the hanging gardens which afterall stands at just a modest 2 storeys. Perhaps if the proposed structure tapered down to a reduced height adjacent to the hanging gardens it might work, althought the developers are likely to want to squeeze in as much floorspace as possible on the site.
The problem here is that the precedent for 5/6 storey buildings already exists in this area, have a look at the glass box tacked onto the georgian building beside the proposed development site. I said I’d give Virtual Earth another rattle to get a better look at the site and it does seem that an interconnecting building to the rear of the mercantile building is being demolished along with a significant portion of the smaller adjacent building to make way for the monster office block.
Unfortunately no images exist yet, the architects dont even seem to have a website:eek: while the city council still havent set up their new e-plan enquiry system which would allow us to see the drawings!
@dave123 wrote:
In fact the road facing bulding and the 5 story element could be mistaken to be two completly different buildings if the brick shading was different colour.
But they are 2 completely different buildings dave, the large new build is to house primarily office accomodation with possible retail facing post office lane while the mercantile (red brick) building is being converted into a bar/restaurant.
@iomanaiocht wrote:
This is my first post on this most interesting site where conflicting opinions are generally accepted graciously unlike some others that I contribute to.
Welcome aboard iomaniocht! I can definitely see where you’re coming from and I must say Im in favour in principle of the opera centre aswell, indeed the prospect of a €350 Million retail boost would be welcomed by any town or city. However you have to try and not be blinded by all the hype and the developers buzz words, you have to look a bit deeper. The fact is the project as is currently proposed is exremely flawed, history tells us that handing over an entire city block to private developers is usually a gamble that dosent pay off and we have the painful memories to prove this in Limerick (Aurthurs Quay, Dunnes). The reason why much of O Connell Street for example is blighted by horror shows like Brown Thomas, Penneys, Bank of Ireland, AIB etc is because the council was blinded by the prospect of shiny new developments and short term gain, never even considering what the future imlications might be. Take a look back over this thread and look up the old illustrations of Limerick thread and you’ll see just what the city has lost over the years.
I admit that I am not an expert on arhitecture but would ask those calling for the retention of all the Georgian buildings in the affected area to take a walk along Ellen Street and look up at the upper stories of these buildings. From a casual observation some with extensive vegetaion growth appear as if they are could collapse and without this deveopment soon will.
Theres no doubt that the buildings are in a fairly sorry state, however just because there is vegetation growing on them dosent mean they are condemned. Indeed the structural engineers report found that these buildings are salvagable, however the interiors of three of them have been significantly altered to an extent that there is nothing of merit remaining except the facade. Still georgian brickwork is more attractive than the plasticy legoland rubbish that is proposed. If the developers had their way the whole opera centre site would be levelled as it would make thinks “more straightforward” as they stated earlier. These people have no interest in any potential damage their proposal would inflict on the city, all that matters to them is €€€€€€!
Currently, the vast majority of these people visit either Galway, Cork or Dublin cities, when shopping for ‘significant’ and expensive occasions such as First Communion, Confirmations and Weddings. For Limerick City to compete it must allow large city developments such a sthe Opera Centre develop. The city cannot wait much longer or alternative developments elsewhere will mean that centres such as the Opera Centre will be no longer necessary or viable. Limerick City must become involved in a competitive trading environment with Galway and Cork. As one of the regular Clare visitors to Glaway I read the local Galwegian papers. Invariably, when they discuss proposed large retail developments they outline how they will attract cutomers and tenants to Galway at the expense of Limerick City.
Im very familiar with Galway aswell and I’ve never heard anyone say that Galway is a better shopping destination than Limerick. Indeed Galways retail core is smaller than Limerick’s and imo offers less choice. The major problem here is that the likes of the crescent sc has been pulling customers from all over munster and beyond in recent years and this is going to be replicated when Parkway valley opens next year. Fortunately the city centre is finally starting to fight its corner and the developments on Bedford Row and Thomas Street have shown what the pedestrianisation programme can stimulate. I would expect a similar turnaround on O Connell Street when work gets underway there. Also the proposal for the redevelopment of the Aurthurs Quay area promises much.
If you have the time, check out the City Centre Strategy for more on the city centre proposals.
I know the image is microscopic but it looks like I will have to revise my earlier observation that Quins pub is to be retained under the new plans. Its fairly apparent that what we can see in the CGI is the Michael Street/Ellen Street corner where Quins now stands. According to the NIAH this former bonded limestone warehouse dates from the mid 18th Century. Even though it has been neglected for some time and is in need of fairly significant restoration work, it is still a highly attractive building and indeed this type of structure is pretty rare in Limerick so therefore any thoughts of demolition shouldnt even be considered by the planners. Unfortunately though Limerick City Council have never had much time for the city’s architectural heritage so theres no guarantee it will be safeguarded.
What really gets me is just why the developers feel the destruction of this building is somehow more justified now than it was in the previous application when they proposed to renovate it as a bar/restaurant. We have known for some time that the developers have absolutely no interest in preserving the 5 georgians on Ellen street as stipulated by ABP and indeed last year Limericks senior planner Dick Tobin said that he believed this condition was a mistake and should not be implemented.:rolleyes: Thanks to the wonders of Microsofts virtual earth I was able to rotate the view and check out the rears of these buildings on Ellen Street and in fairness all of them seem to be in pretty poor shape (See Attached). However this does not mean they are beyond salvation an indeed 2 buildings are recommended for full conservation while the facades of the remaining 3 are to be retained. Im not for one minute saying that facade retention is fully acceptable but obviously its much more preferable than the total loss of these buildings from the streetscape.
Quins, Ellen Street Limerick
@CologneMike wrote:
Opera Shopping Centre Update
It took me a while to figure out just what I was looking at in that render, on closer inspection, its the Patrick Street/Ellen Street corner?
What Douglas Wallace have effectively served up is a complete re-design of the original scheme. According to that image anyway, all the georgian buildings on the left hand side of the street are to be demolished with just Quinns pub retained. Have a look at the Patrick Street/Rutland Street elevations, the glass structure is considerably oversailing numerous georgian buildings! The plan is literally rubbishing the conditions laid down by An Bord Pleanala.
So they intend to have this started by the autumn? Some chance of that happening, this one is definitely heading back to ABP anyway!:rolleyes:
@phatman wrote:
Had my first proper look around Limerick for the first time in ages on Friday, and I’ve gotta say the place blew me away. Some really fantastic developments going on, and completed, the city centre in particular is quite impressive, while all out the Dublin Road as far as the Annacotty Roundabout is undergoing huge change. The UL area looked great! I’ve got to say developers/architects in Limerick have some balls and imagination, and haven’t been afraid to push the boundaries. A bit more of that attitude elsewhere wouldn’t go astray…
Glad to see you were impressed by the goings on down here phatman. Theres plenty more in the pipeline aswell, take a look back at the pages in this thread and you’ll get an idea!
Back on the topic of the opera centre, Regeneration Developments have submitted a potentially significant application to the planning office. The alterations are likely to involve the integration of a number of additional georgian buildings into the complex, ie No.s 1,2,3 Patrick Street and the old town hall on Rutland Street (a protected structure).
Yet again though, the City Councils shambolic enquiry system dosent want us to know the details!:( For the love of God will ye sort that thing out!:mad:
Henry Street/Glentworth Street Corner
The Henry Street area looks sets for more redevelopment after an application was submitted for a new 5 storey office building at the junction with lower Glentworth Street. The site is located next door to the former GPO complex and Roches hanging gardens building and is currently occupied by a non descript single storey warehouse type structure.
Permission is sought for the demolition of existing premises and the construction of a five storey premises consisting of a retail unit on the ground floor and four floors of offices overhead and associated site works. All at 19 Henry Street Limerick (the corner of Lower Glentworth Street/Henry Street).
Dominic G O’Riordan & Associates
Former GPO complex and hanging gardens
This article appeared in one of the mid week editions of the Limerick Leader, it sure didn’t take long for the knives to come out for this one! Looks like they’ve been checking us out here on archiseek aswell!:D
Well Dan, are you going to seek a meeting with some of these councilors you refer to?
An Taisce to object to €20m development of Limerick Boatclub
Anne Sheridan
The heritage body An Taisce have said they intend to lodge an objection against the proposed €20m development on Sarsfield bridge which would see the Boatclub demolished in favour of a new modern building which would facilitate the rowing club.
Local An Taisce spokesperson Dan Sullivan said they will also be urging people to lobby their city councilors to ensure the Boatclub, which is a protected structure is not de-listed and they do not change the zoning of the site from open space to mixed use development.
“I would challenge each councilor in turn that might seek to renege on their previous position to explain what exactly has changed. It is sad that what was proving to be a thriving alternative music venue was shut down so the Boatclub building could be allowed lie vacant in order to justify this application,†said Mr. O’Sullivan.
He said he agrees that “the boat sheds aren’t exactly architecturally inspiring†but believes that the building should be retained.
The public have also been voicing their views on the proposed development on architectural websites and the local Limerick Blogger site since the Limerick leader exclusively revealed the full plans proposed by Fordmount developments last week.
Some bloggers described the plans as “a bloody disgrace†while others said they were “bold, ambitious and certainly a break from the norm.†one blogger on the architectural website, archiseek.com said “ I can see both sides of the argument – the developers want to create something modern and striking, while others want to see the past preserved.†Others said while they liked the designs drawn up by the Belfast based architects McCann Moore, they believed they may not be suitable for that location and instead should be located in another area of the city, such as the docklands.
Concerns regarding traffic flow during construction, if the development is given the go-ahead by the city planners on June 26th, was also expressed as a concern by a number of people.
Developer Michael Daly of Fordmount Developments has said he will simply “walk away from the plans†if the public are unhappy with the designs. “I really hope people will look at these plans and say “that’s fantastic.â€
“That’s the reaction I want to get. If they don’t want it, we’ll forget about it. Its now a question of whether the city wants this building or not,†said Mr Daly.
To date, labour Councillor Joe Leddin, Fine Gael Cllrs Jim Long and Kevin Kiely have given the development the thumbs up.
Limerick Boatclub, who would be re-housed in the new four-storey development believe it is a “ win-win situation†for the rowing club. Independent Cllr Kathleen Leddin said she believes the current boatclub – which is a protected structure – should be upgraded rather than demolished.
Out in Castletroy, plans have been lodged for the former esso service station beside the Hurlers pub on the Dublin Road.
Major plans for site next to Hurlers pub (Limerick Post)
A MAJOR development, including 103 basement car parking spaces, shops and offices, is planned for the former Esso site on the Dublin Road, alongside the famous Hurlers Pub.
The Hurlers Co. Ownership has applied to Limerick County Council for planning permission for development on lands at former Esso Garage and part of the site of adjoining Hurlers Public House (a protected structure).
The proposed development will consist of the demolition of existing filling station/retail unit on the site and construction of new building accommodating 4659 sq m gross floor area and comprising eight no retail/commercial (class 1 and classes 2 use categories) at ground floor level, three floors of offices over, 30 no surface parking spaces and a basement carpark (103 no spaces).
The proposed development involves the carrying out of works to the rear of Hurlers public house involving the part removal of later extensions to facilitate a new access ramp to the basement car park. Otherwise, no other works are proposed to the existing Hurlers public house.
Permission is also sought for hard and soft landscaping, boundary treatment, signage and all associated site and development works.
Meanwhile, just down the road, Lidl have been granted permission for a new store beside the Kilmurray Lodge hotel.
Development Description: Construction of a discount foodstore incorporating an off-licence(c. 1345m2 gross floor area 1065m2 nett retail area), comprising a single storey pitched roof structure, enclosed dock leveller, removable compactor, L.P.G. tank and fenced compound. This application also seeks permission for all boundary treatments, hard & soft landscaping, new site entrance, public lighting, car parking, connection to public services and all ancillary site works
Development Address: Dublin Road, Newcastle, Castletroy
To be fair, the plans for the boat club site are not all that bad. They are bold, ambitious and certainly a break from the norm. I can see both sides of the argument, the developers want to create something modern and striking while others want to see the past preserved. The problem I have with the proposal is its location. As CologneMike said earlier, the main factor that should be taken into account here is Sarsfield bridge. We should be more concerned about any potential negative impact on the bridge rather than getting caught up in all this nonsense about creating “iconic structures.” I would foe example have serious concerns about the intention to relocate the current pedestrian access point. Does this mean the removal of the steps from the bridge to the pier and would it require any alterations to the bridge itself?
You would also have to have concerns regarding its impact on the riverscape and for example, would it obscure views of the rowing club on the opposite side of the bridge and St Marys Cathedral? Looking at the plans, the glazed cylindrical portion is much more attractive than the elevation that directly faces the bridge. In my opinion it looks chunky and overbearing.
Having said all that, I would quite like to see this built somewhere in Limerick, although I believe it would potentially be more suited to the redeveloped docklands or possibly the ESB site on a larger scale.
Below: Wellesley pier and Limerick Boat club with rowing club in the background. (Derhur)
We’ve been banging on for almost three years now about the incredible lackage of information on this project. Ever since planning was awarded in late 2006, the start of construction has apparently been “imminent”, now we hear it is “likely” to begin in 6 or 8 weeks. Indeed it was only before Christmas that we were told work would start in January, I just really wish they would get a move on, I’ve said it before, but the vast swathes of empty buildings on Patrick Street and Rutland Street currently represent a very poor gateway to the city centre from the Dublin road side.
For such a high profile project, you would think the developers would be keen to promote it at every opportunity. Instead, there is no website, no detailed plans and the images we are supplied with are of very dubious quality. Why for instance in the CGI of the Bank place entrance is the area not landscaped and upgraded as is proposed?
The architects behind the opera centre are Ostick and Williams of Belfast but surprise surprise, there is no mention of the project on their site!:rolleyes:
@dave123 wrote:
Why can’t they grade separate the traffic. Like put pedstrian movements underground. Having A right flowing slips from Childer’s road over/under the T junction. I remember years ago, they were planning to put slips and underground walkways as part of the Parkway valley deveopment.
It comes down to one simple factor; money! It would cost in the region of €30 Million for even a basic grade separation of the Parkway roundabout, ie. a bridge with slip roads to carry the Dublin road over the roundabout and the re-alignment of the junction and connecting roads. As the Dublin road at the parkway is no longer a National route, the NRA have no responsibility for it and there is no chance of Limerick City Council investing this kind of money to sort it out. The only other option is for a private developer to fork out and fund the project, however as we’ve seen, the signalised junction marks the limit of the parkway developers ambitions.
Incidentally, what is the story with access to the new Parkway valley complex? I know there will be an access road from the existing retail park, are the “tunnelled slip roads” still part of the plans? If I was a betting man, Id say not!
Below is a shot of the Parkway valley construction site (Courtesy of Zoney)
Attached: General Parkway area.
I think it looks great, very crisp and clean, its a fairly simple concept yet quite elegant at the same time! All it needs now is an appropriate lighting system, if this is done properly it will be quite a striking sight after dark!
Heres another perspective on it from brownej
Bedford Row in general is in excellent shape now with the city central development across the street basically complete. The pedestrianisation has done wonders for business here, as up until recently Bedford Row had become something of a “nothing” street that people just used to get to O Connell Street or Henry Street. I believe nevada smiths bar has now closed down?, there has been talk lately of more retail space being developed on this site!
Hard to believe it now but Bedford Row looked like this only a couple of years ago!:eek:
@CologneMike wrote:
Tunnel to link new Court House to Prison
They seem to be serious on moving the courthouse to Mulgrave Street. To date nothing to be seen on the OPW site. Would the proposed courthouse face Mulgrave Street or would it front onto the new proposed road linking Cathedral Place with Sexton Street?
What new use would be in store for the building in Merchant’s Quay after they had moved? Filmhouse? Theatre?
I dont blame them to be honest, I believe the district court has actually been housed in the City hall building since it was opened in the late 80s, what a ridiculous decision that was!:rolleyes: Apparently the Council are concerned about the negative publicity generated by the all too common shots of City hall in news reports. It cant be good for visiting officials either or for people just carrying out business there.
Having said that, the circuit court is also located just metres away from City hall, I presume this would move to the new site on Mulgrave Street aswell? I know the courts service are developing a new court complex in Dublin at the moment so Im not sure how much funds are available for the project here, although I have heard rumours that a public private partnership might be used!
There are plans in the pipeline for a revamp of the potato market to turn it into a plaza area with possibly a new cultural building on another part of the site. If this went ahead, the close proximity of the courthouse would make it all the more attractive for some sort of cultural/civic use. Would it be suitable as the new location for the City library or would it be too small?
Murray O Laoire completed a €7 million refurbishment of the courthouse back in 2002.
Below: Court House with potato market to the right.
The Strategy document contains the following information on the comencement/completion dates for the remainder of the streetscape works in the city centre.
Upper Thomas St, Catherine St, Foxes Bow, Limerick Lane, and Erson’s Lane. Start Jan 2008 Finish Jan 2009
Sarsfield St, William St, and Upper William St. Start June 2008 Finish June 2009
O’Connell St, Patrick St to Crescent. Start March 2009 Finish December 2010
John’s Square. Start October 2009 Finish October 2010
Roche’s St, Shannon St, from Henry St to O’Connell St. Start Jan 2010 Finish Jan 2011
Catherine St between Glentworth St and Roche’s St. Start April 2009 Finish January 2010
Night Club Quarter. Start October 2008 Finish April 2010
To complete the Riverside Walks as follows:
Clancy Strand, Curragour Bund. Start October 2007 Finish October 2008
O’Callaghan Strand. Start January 2008 Finish January 2009
Shannon Bridge to Sarsfield Bridge incld. Lower Shannon and Cecil St. Start Oct 2008 Finish Oct 2009
Clancy Strand Boardwalk. Start May 2008 Finish November 2008
Bridge Lighting. Start October 2008 Finish April 2009
Merchants Quay / Potato market. Start October 2009 Finish October 2010
Elsewhere in the “Central Core” the plan identifies 4 city centre blocks as potential redevelopment opportunities, these include the Bank of Ireland block, the Brown Thomas block and interestingly the block containing the Augustinian church.
Along with the Aurthurs Quay redevelopment proposal, the document identifies 6 development sites within the city centre. The site of the Limerick boat club is included although no specific details are contained in the plan.
Site A – The ESB building, Howley’s Quay
The buildings adjacent to the river front have undergone a major transformation in recent years. This site is the llast remaining “undeveloped†site between Shannon Bridge and Sarsfield Bridge.The building is currently vacant and occupies a site of 0.233 ha (0.5757 acres). The site offers significant potential in its own right.With
the expected relocation of the Henry Street Garda Station and the expected relocation of the Irish Greyhound Board from their headquarters there is the potential to create a site of significant scale.Site B – Electrical Rewind and Thompson’s Funeral Home, Thomas Street.
Thomas St forms a key part of the City Centre Pedestrianisation Project. Lower Thomas St has been fully pedestrianised and significant upgrading works to upper Thomas St are planned for 2008. The investment of such significant funds in the upgrading of the public realm has already generated redevelopment of sites fronting onto the newly upgraded streets. This redevelopment is seen as very complementary to the investment by Limerick City Council.
The site occupied by Electrical Rewind, Thompsons Funeral Home and others at the top of Thomas St provides significant potential for redevelopment to higher order uses. The site fronts onto Thomas St and Wickham St. The site offers the potential to link the Thomas St upgrading with the Railway Station area by establishing a landmark building on the site. The site is privately owned by a number of parties.
Action: Consult with landowners to identify measures necessary to release the site for redevelopment.
Site C: Site known as Telecom Car Park, Roche’s Street
The site is currently used as a surface car park. It has extensive frontage to Roche’s Street which is currently used for advertising hoardings.The sites measures 0.3547 ha (0.876 acres) and offers potential for development of retail/commercial units on street level. Its location adjacent to the orbital route makes it ideally suited for development of an underground multistorey car park. A pedestrian link could also be established through to Baker Place. The site is zoned commercial and is privately owned.
Action: Consult with landowner to identify measures necessary to release the site for redevelopment.
Site D: Corner site at O’Connell St / Thomas St junction
The subject development site bounds O’Connell Street, Roche’s Street, Catherine Street and Thomas Street.Feasibility to be further examined for a mixed development of retail, office, residential and leisure facilities.
Site E: Site at William St / Fox’s Bow
The subject development site bounds both William Street and Fox’s Bow. Feasibility to be further examined for a mixed development of retail, office and residential accommodation.
