Sirius

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  • Sirius
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    @Praxiteles wrote:

    Re post # 954:

    Sirius

    1. The FOSCC legal team were hired to represent the FOSCC position to An Bord Pleanala. They were not hired to represent the lady to whom you refer.

    2. Let us use a little logic, shall we? The fact that the FOSCC legal team did not say anything about the remarks to which you refer does not allow you to insinuate that they supported such views. If you do intend this then, you are affording us with a rather nice example of a post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy. [The kind of argument that we get when someone says “the light is on, therefore they must be at home”. If the light is on, all you can say is taht the light is on].

    3. You should also note that the legal team hired by the Trustees did not distance themselves either from the views which you mentioned. Are we to make anything of that?

    4. The legal team hired by the Urban District Council did not distance themselves either from the same views. Is anything to be inferred from that?

    5. I am beginning to think that you are not quite up to this discussion!

    You don’t have to distance yourself from somebody who is attacking you.

    I am beginning to think you sound like Gerry Adams

    Sirius
    Participant

    @Gianlorenzo wrote:

    Sirius,
    The appeal decision has advanced the protection of our ecclesiastical architectural heritage and hopefully what remains of a great period in Irish architecture as well as Irish Catholicism will not (sic) [did you mean “now”?] be preserved and appreciated for what it is.

    Should church architecture be preserved in a way that physically restricts liturgical change? In this particular case the decision happens to suit the liturgical conservatives. But what if a future Bishop of Kerry wanted to reorder St. Mary’s Cathedral and An Taisce insisted that the present layout of the sanctuary be preserved as one of the finest examples of late 20th century iconoclasm?
    The appeal decision is a Pyrrhic victory. If you hand over control of the sanctuary to the secular authorities will you ever be able to take it back? The liturgical debate should be resolved within the church and should never be brought into the planning process.
    FOSCC should support the Bishop’s right under the planning code to reorder the sanctuary in accordance the diocesan liturgical requirements. At the same time they should seek to influence those requirements by using the internal church procedures outlined by Dr. Kershaw.

    Sirius
    Participant

    @Gianlorenzo wrote:

    Sirius, seriously!! Do you personally know the members of FOSCC? If so, please enlighten us as to how you can say they are “Tridentines”? If you do not, how can you say they are “Tridentines”?

    The FOSCC legal team made no attempt to distance themselves from the following arguments which were made by Ms Sherwin in support of their appeal:
    The Second Vatican Council and the post-conciliar experiment has been a total disaster.
    The rotten fruits of Vatican II are everywhere to be witnessed both in the Church and in civil society.
    Vatican II is responsible for the catastrophic condition of the Catholic Church today.
    “Everywhere you look there is heresy and moral decay; ecumenism is a manifest disaster; the documents of Vatican II and all post-conciliar documents are misleading and ambiguous.” (Quoted by Ms. Sherwin from “Christian Order”, Oct. 2004):

    Sirius
    Participant

    @Gianlorenzo wrote:

    Sirius, does your ‘conservative/conservation zealots’ tag also refer to those on this thread who welcome the An Bord Pleanala decision?

    Although they shared a common objective during the appeal this is a most unstable coalition with conflicting long term interests. The various appellants have welcomed the Board’s decision for radically different reasons.
    1. The secularist conservationists in An Taisce and the Irish Georgian Society believe that they have gained effective control over the architectural heritage of the main religious denominations.
    2. The bureaucratic conservationists in the Department of the Environment believe they have “binned” Chapter 5 of the Architectural Heritage Guidelines.
    3. The conservative Tridentines in FOSCC believe that they have turned back the liturgical clock.

    FOSCC were so focused on embarrassing their own hierarchy that they still do not realise the extent to which the appeal decision has advanced the cause of Secularism. Ian Lumley must find it amusing to hear the turkeys welcome Christmas.

    Sirius
    Participant

    @Praxiteles wrote:

    The problem with the hundred year flood in Mallow is that it comes harder and faster and more frequently nowadays. And with all the building in Mallow, the flood is more often than not an inundation.

    If it came more frequently it would not be the hundred year flood.

    Sirius
    Participant

    @Gianlorenzo wrote:

    Sirius, does your ‘conservative/conservation zealots’ tag also refer to those on this thread who welcome the An Bord Pleanala decision?

    Although they shared a common objective during the appeal this is a most unstable coalition with conflicting long term interests. The various appellants have welcomed the Board’s decision for radically different reasons.
    1. The secularist conservationists in An Taisce and the Irish Georgian Society believe that they have gained effective control over the architectural heritage of the main religious denominations.
    2. The bureaucratic conservationists in the Department of the Environment believe they have “binned” Chapter 5 of the Architectural Heritage Guidelines.
    3. The conservative Tridentines in FOSCC believe that they have turned back the liturgical clock.

    FOSCC were so focused on embarrassing their own hierarchy that they still do not realise the extent to which the appeal decision has advanced the cause of Secularism. Ian Lumley must find it amusing to hear the turkeys welcome Christmas.

    Sirius
    Participant

    @Praxiteles wrote:

    Mallow Town pak would be an excellent location for a post V2 Cathedral for the diocese of Cloyne -which for that matter should probably have been merged with Cork years ago – as the site, suggested by Sirius, poses the additional challenge of being subject to flooding. Presumably the proposed structure could either be built on stilts or else fortified against the Blackwater. Perhaps the services of Professor Cathal O’Neill could be retained (remember those steel lifts at Drogheda railway station). It sounds just like the sort of scheme that wouuld suit him down to the ground (or should I say water)! Aye, there’s the rub of being the hub!

    The fact that Mallow Town Park is currently subject to flooding is not an insurmountable challenge. It is after all zoned for development of Community Facilities, a land use category which specifically includes a church. Finding a central and visually impressive site for a new cathedral within an established town would normally involve enormous expense (particularly with land prices as they are now) and it would be difficult to achieve a suitably iconic building on an awkward infill site.

    Various engineering options for dealing with the flooding issue have been floating around in the backwaters of bureaucratic inertia for the past few decades. The plan put forward by Dr. Ger Kiely of UCC retained a significant portion of the Town Park above the flood plane. This could be adapted to provide a superb cathedral site.

    As the adjoining lands would remain part of the designated flood plane the cathedral would never be hemmed in by future development . While the cathedral would occasionally be isolated (but not inundated) by a 100-year flood, the floodwaters would soon recede, symbolising the way the Catholic Church will always be able to rise above the periodic assaults by conservative and/or conservationist zealots.

    Sirius
    Participant
    Thomond Park wrote:
    Those are good points you make]

    Now that the reordering of St. Colman’s Cathedral has been refused by the Appeal Board the question posed by Thomand Park above should be reexamined. One of the options would be to build a new cathedral – but not on Great Island as Cobh no longer deserves the status of a cathedral town. Mallow is more centrally located to serve the diocese of Cloyne and has been designated as a “hub town” in the National Spatial Strategy. The Town Park there could provide an ideal site.

    in reply to: The work of E. W. Pugin #765632
    Sirius
    Participant

    @Praxiteles wrote:

    Sirius:

    Post °111 was not posted by Praxiteles. Indeed, no mention of Alex White appears in anything posted by Praxiteles on this thread.

    Cool the steam!

    Please accept my apologies, Praxiteles, as I now realise that it was Gianlorenzo who posted the statement that “there is one worrying aspect in that Alex White is involved”. Can I take it that Praxiteles does not support Gianlorenzo’s smear tactics?

    in reply to: The work of E. W. Pugin #765630
    Sirius
    Participant

    @Praxiteles wrote:

    No! We are talking about Monkstown. Can you get someone to rust over and take a few shots – especially of the inside. Does anyone know what is goning on there’. Was there a planning application?

    Permission was granted by Cork County Council two years ago to restore and reorder the church. If you wish to check it out, the file reference is 04/1991. There was no fuss and no appeal to An Bord Pleanala. Monkstown people are gentle folk who respect their clergy. They also hold Alexander White in high regard and are not impressed by Praxiteles pathetic attempt to smear someone who is a great architect and a perfect gentleman.

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