schuhart
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I’ve read the thread again in search of treason. The only conclusion I can come to is that the Mayo News regard questioning destructive myths as an inherently unIrish activity.
On a more positive note, I’m actually surprised these discussions are obviously bothering someone to the extent that a local paper in Mayo prints a load of evasive mindless nonsense as a comfort.
@ctesiphon wrote:
“Mr Parlon said rural dwellers should have the same rights as urban dwellers when it comes to deciding where to live.”
Its like we live with two parallel dialogues which never meet. How do the local authorities square the world view represented by Parlon’s statement with their denial that Irish planning is a case study in how not to do it?
Councils reject EU criticism of poor planning policies
04/10/2006 – 13:09:32
The organisation representing local authorities around the country has rejected criticism of Irish planning policies from the EU’s environmental body.Reports this morning say the European Environment Agency has cited Ireland as the “worst-case scenario” when it comes to urban planning.
The criticism is reportedly contained in an assessment due to be published later this month to show new EU member states how not to approach the issue of planning.
It highlights vast urban sprawl in Dublin, as well as in villages and towns across the entire country.
However, the Association of City and County Councils has rejected the EEA’s criticism today, saying its members were only rezoning land to meet local housing needs and people seeking to move out of built-up areas were frequently being denied planning permission in rural areas.
@FIN wrote:
ha,ha…you are so blinded my friend.
i thought firstly that the cao was country wide so everyone can avail of the ‘bare leaving cert’ ( whatever that means ) gmit castlebar campus. this campus happens to be in the west. so what!
i am not evading anything at all. and what facts? you said we go to college more. i suppose it doesn’t fit in with yours and a lot like you that the culchies should live in thatched cottages and the like. it is that sort of ignorant shite that had this country on it’s knees for 50 years. but it does remind me of a joke i heard…. what does the average dubliner call a culcie? boss.Now you are adding bluster to evasion. The simple fact is that Western students have nearby colleges with lower entry requirements. This is clearly one of the reasons they have higher participation rates. Another is the higher level of resourcing at primary level. @FIN wrote:
we did not choose the settlement pattern as you suggest. it is borne out of necessity.
You choose it through the local authorities that you elect. @FIN wrote:
why would you push your idea of a way to live on anyone else. your arogance has made you assume that your way is the only way.
I’m not pushing anything on anyone. I’m simple saying you have to accept the consequences of the choices you make, and not blame what flows from your decisions on Dublin people. @FIN wrote:
i said that i made a contribution to dublin. it is entirely true. as was pointed out in another thread and as you say it goes to centrral government. now if you can prove that every cent that i have paid goes into the west then by all means go for it
I’ve already posted a link to the CSO publication that documents the fact that the Western region is a net recipient of state funds, so I really cannot understand why you have not conceded this point. @FIN wrote:
i would be delighted to know that but also pretty pissed off as what did they spend it on? we have no proper roads. but this isn’t just a western thing as you are trying to make it. this is all around the country outside the pale.i am from the west and living here,
Your point about the infrastructure being lacking outside Dublin is frequently crowd pleasing, but utterly untrue. As has been said elsewhere, contrast the congestion at Dublin Airport with the way that the West is paved with underutilised airports. Infrastructure is only provided in Dublin long after the need has become critical, becuase of the petty begrudgery caused by any investment in the capital. @FIN wrote:
ha,ha…have you ever visited the west or anywhere outside dublin. i would suggest a trip and go see some schools.
Bizarrely, you said this in response to material I was quoting from the Western Development Commission in Ballaghaderreen. Like many people living in Dublin, I am well acquainted with the West, and the plain fact that it shows the benefits of the preferential treatment in receives. Unfortunately, people in the West seem less aware of the world outside their region. @FIN wrote:
i wasn’t complaining. i told the fact. i did myself but i was lucky enough that i could return. how does one-off house screw up the west? and i never complained about the social cost at all. i suggest you rerad what i type.
The social cost of one-off housing includes having a settlement pattern unsuited to attracting employment, which means people need to leave. You complained about people having to leave to find work, yet said you had no problem with farmers selling sites. Those sites would be used for one-off housing.
Which all adds up to you complaining about the social consequences of one-off housing, while not complaining about the cause of that consequence. Which is exactly the kind of utter nonsense that litters political debate in the West.
@FIN wrote:
that’s a nice stat. we go to college more. what is your point there? i can only assume that you are saying that we are more intelligent. lower class sizes…it may be very true because there isn’t that big a population here. )
Typical Western evasion on being presented with the facts. What the nice stats presented by the Western Development Commission mean is that the West is educationally advantaged because of the public funds invested in the region. For example, I remember noticing last year that the Castlebar campus of GMIT had the distinction of being the only non-private third level college where the entry requirements for courses was a bare leaving cert.
So the higher participation rate is not so much related to the innate talent of Western people, and more that they benefit from small class sizes and lower third level entry requirements because they get a generous share of state funds. @FIN wrote:
our children have to get educated and go to college to get anywhere in life. and basically leave the region.
That’s because you’ve opted for a dispersed settlement pattern, with all the social costs that implies. Cut down on the one-off housing, concentrate on developing one or two towns, and you’ll start seeing a change. @FIN wrote:
the reason we pay less is because there is less people here.
You make no net contribution, either looked at as a group or per capita. You receive a subsidy from central government – which essentially means a transfer of resources from Dublin and the Mid East region. Your suggestion that Western taxpayers make a contribution to Dublin is simply wrong, and that is the core point I want you to concede. I don’t have a problem with the idea that national resources should be shared. I just want to you to acknowledge the plain fact that this happens, and to give up your wrong and insulting suggestion that the Dublin region does not share its resources. @FIN wrote:
we have less services so we pay less services charges.
The Western Development Commission information confirms you are educationally advantaged compared to other regions. @FIN wrote:
it is the sheer arogance to think that jackeens pay for the lifestyle we have outside the pale
It is simply a fact, based on CSO data, that this is the case. I cannot understand why, other that for reasons of pure embarrassment, you cannot simply acknowledge this plain, documented fact. After all, you were quick enough to suggest that Western taxpayers paid for the M50 although this is patent nonsense. @FIN wrote:
throughout the years all the european money has gone to improving the road network around the pale. i am not saying this is a bad thing as it is the capital and has the biggest population but don’t tell me we are better off.
This is simply not true – all regions got a poke out of EU funds, while the cities suffered in the early part of our EU membership as traditional industries closed – not having any benefit from CAP. @FIN wrote:
it is true that farmers are getting paid to do nothing with their lands and can then sell sites off but why not.
Earlier, you were complaining about people needing to leave the region. The process that includes one-off housing is one of the things that screws the West. If you see no problem with farmers selling sites, then please don’t complain about the social cost. @FIN wrote:
they pay their way. not as much as others i admit but they don’t get the same service.
As the CSO and Western Development Commission material documents, your statement is false on both counts.
@Thomond Park wrote:
No-one has raised the costs of Galway or Sligo related projects of which the benefits of are equally specific to the location but are done in the interests of civic amenity.
Are you saying that Cork taxpayers should complain about Eyre Square?
That’s a calm and reasonable way of putting it. I should just leave it there, but unfortunately I’m not in a calm mood. @FIN wrote:
i know. it’s terrible i pay tax for…
m50, tunnel,luas,spike,etc,etc,etc,etcwe have all been through this before so i won’t go on.
Feel free to go on all you like. But be sure to make use of the regional income figures produced by CSO. They clearly show (page 13 of this attachment) that Western region households pay €1,093 million in tax, but receive €1,318 in social transfers. So you can be quite confident that any tax you pay stays local, along with an extra €225 million net in subsidies.
On the other hand, Dublin households pay €5,474 in tax and receive €3,939 in social transfers, making a net contribution of €1.5 billion available to the national finances.
If you wonder who might benefit from that, you might consider the generous provision of public services in the West described by the Western Development Commission.
• A higher share of young people go to college than anywhere else in the country
• 56% of all 17-18 year olds in Galway and 55% in Mayo and Sligo go to college — compared with 44% nationally
Children also start out on the right foot as primary schools in the West generally have smaller class sizes.
Average pupil-teacher ratios in primary schools are considerably lower than in Dublin and surrounding counties e.g. an average of about 17 pupils per teacher in Mayo compared with 22 pupils in Kildare.What’s bizarre is not just that Westerners seem to find it physically impossible to recognise the plain fact that they are subsidised by the East. They actually try to reverse reality by pretending that they make a contribution to national finances. Whatever facilities Dublin has, including those providing national services, have been largely paid for by its own residents.
@FIN wrote:
trying to rebuild the wall around the pale i hope.
ar maybe trying to dig the rest of the tunnel around it so it can be floated back to britainYou mean no-one explained to them that someone actually has to pay tax to keep their lifestyles going?
