Rhabanus
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@Praxiteles wrote:
As promised: here we have the simplified version of Liuirgical Latin for Dummies. Aptly, it is called Simplicissimus. Praxiteles thinks its optimistic to believe that the Cloyne HACK could get up to speed in Latin after 20 lessons – but, let’s see what happens.
While this course is intended for Dummies who know the basics of English grammar, producing an even more simplified version for the members of the Cloyne Hack who are not able to grasp the difference between nouns and verbs -not to mention adverbs and adjectives and prepositions – is proving a good deal more difficult. Currently, our Latin experts are talking with Long John Silver in the hope of developing the Simplicissimus parrot method based on morphems and phonems. If that does not work, well ah …………………
“members of the Cloyne HACK who are not able to grasp the difference between nouns and verbs ….”
This puts Rhabanus in mind of a couple of budding Latin grammarians, Paulus and Prisca, who allegedly appealed to Pope Zachary in the eighth century for an annulment. The dissolution, it seems, was granted, though it is unclear whether on the grounds of mutual incompatibility or of invincible ignorance: for every time she asked him to conjugate, he declined.
I wonder whatever happened to the marble angels kneeling in adoration on either side of the Crucifix.
The church and sanctuary seemed much bigger in the film than they do in the colour photos.@Praxiteles wrote:
Praxiteles posted the pictires of Our Lady of Sorrows to see its present condition. Happily, it is still more or less intact -although some gaudy bits of kitsch have been introduced.
The interest in its present condition was sparked by a film recording of Solemn High Mass made there on Easter Sunday 1941 which is an interesting histoorical document in that it shows how the sanctuary liturgically operated:
Absolutely glorious! Thank you, Prax, for that instructive document. Amazing that this copy survived the ravages of time.
Note the vituperation of the comments lodged by various readers on that site in response to the recording. That kind of venom suggests the real scandal attached to the Sacrifice of Calvary made present sacramentally in the Holy Eucharist. As the discerning reader of those remarks will note, “Even the devils believe … and tremble!” (Jas 2:19)
Note the gravitas of the Roman rite. A far cry from those C. Landry ditties from the 1970s now ubiquitous throughout the beleaguered world of Catholic schools and parishes where such schools exist. Here are some samples of what that twankling jack offered: “Hi, God!, how do you feel today?” “”Got to Get in Touch with the Way That I Feel,” “What Color is God’s Skin?” and “Giant Love Ball Song” [Incipit: “I’m like a bright giant love ball bouncing around so free]
That twaddle just drives one to the foot of the altar to utter those words of Psalm 42: Judica, me, Deus, et discerne causam meam de gente non sancta; ab homine iniquo et doloso erue me!”
The sanctuary in that church is magnificent, and it is used to full advantage during this High Mass.
@Praxiteles wrote:
This is the magnificent church of Our Lady of Sorrows in Jackson Avenue, Chicago.
It is rated as one of the most important churches int he city of Chicago:
Surely not more important than St John Kantius (blissfully free of a thrust-stage extension of the sanctuary) or Our Lady of the Angels (spared from the wrecking ball on condition that the faithful find a way to keep the church up, which they did).
Some great churches in Chicago!
@Praxiteles wrote:
Does anyone know anything about the tracery in the great window of Westminster Hall? Is it original, or was it installed in the mid-19th. century at the time of Barry and Pugin’s rebuilding of the Houses of Parliament? From the heraldic achievements in the glazing, the glass is at least post 1837 for it displays the modern arms of the British monarch asopted by Queen Victoria.
Re the last photo at the bottom: what is that crate dead-centre towards the step leading from the nave into the chancel? Some artist’s “installation”?
Any idea? Why was it included in the photo?
Do the HACK ever, ever look at the results of their decisions?
Do they care?
Is their out-dated ‘spirit of Vatican II’ (mis) ideology so potent that they cannot see the writing on the wall?
The saddest thing about this entire debacle is that there are so many people out there who feel betrayed by their priest and in many instances it is not they who are to blame, but the ideologues in the Cloyne HACK.They have a lot to answer for.
Spot on, Gianlorenzo! These ideologues and iconoclasts have inflicted incalculable damage on the Church in Ireland not just in the temporal but especially in the spiritual realm. That the clergy do not raise their voices in strident protest strongly suggests that they find themselves in a climate of fear where any criticism, even if only perceived, is punished ruthlessly. This is terror writ large.
The Holy See is now opening up the possibility for laity to register their legitimate complaints re the public worship of the Church. This is one of the benefits of the recent motu proprio Summorum pontificum. The Holy See ought to be informed of exactly what is going on in the life of worship in your ballywick so that it can address this summit and source (culmen et fons) of the Church’s life and mission.
@Praxiteles wrote:
St. Colman’s Church, Ballintotis, Midleton, Co. Cork
For the benefit of the enforcment office of Cork County Councilm in the event that they might stir themselves and get out to Ballintotis, here are two photographs of the interior showing where the radiators of teh heating system wwere and where they are not. Again, work carried out without pkanning permission and without a declaration!
A pity that the Stations of the Cross are painted in such garish colours. They are particularly harsh against such a plain background. Surely that paint job is not original. Some pale salmon, gentle creams, robin’s egg blue, and a hint of green, with a few gold highlights would have been much easier on the eye.
The retro-fitted speakers hanging off the walls are deplorable.
Let us hope that the sacristy situation will receive the proper attention from the authorities.
@samuel j wrote:
” Ballintotis is a PROTECTED SCRUCTURE. The sacristy was demolished without planning permission. It also seems to e the case that Cork County Council gave no section 59 Declaration for this demolition. Thus, as far as we can make out, the work is totally unauthorized and unlawful.”
Now if you or I did this we would have enforcement officers all over us like a rash. Take hotel in Cashel, allegedly part of all built without planning…. developer has been told take it down. Unauthorised marina in Oysterhaven…told to remove it. Now where are our agencies when it comes to Churches… very uneven playing field here I think.
Letters of complaint should flood the office of the superintendant over the enforcement officers. Is there an elected representative who can hold the enforcement officers to account?
Turning a blind eye to the Balintotis outrage should not be tolerated. The law has been broken, and those responsible for its enforcement must act.
VERY uneven playing field indeed!
@Praxiteles wrote:
Praxiteles is not certain that a commission of this sort under episcopal jurisdiction would be any more effective that something under the jurisdiction of the state.
Praxiteles believes that such a commission would end up as nothing other than the Cloyne HACK writ large. Like the Cloyne HACK it would be probably stuffed to the gills with a crowd of lackies only too willing to bend the subservient forelock to whatever the most vandalistic bishop would want. For instance, Praxiteles could not see them going against or even resigning before the prospect of something like Eamonn casey’s devastation of Killarney Cathedral.
As further proof of the non-viability of the proposal Praxiteles would have to point a very accusing index at what might be termed the protozoean proto-type of such a commission: namely the Liturgical Commission of the Irish Episcopal Conference and its Art and Architectire sub-committee. We are only too aware of the pseudo arty f***y pretensions of these enteties and of their deep antipathy to anything remotely connected to the tradition of Christian art and architecture. It needs hardly be said how much they know about this tradition. Praxiteles thinks that it would take the diversion of Shannon to purgate those particular pigstys.
No. Praxiteles believes that any effective watchdog organisation must remain juridically independent of both Church and state. It should have a broad popular base and pursue its activities in accordance with the wishes of its members and supporters. At present in Ireland, there are sufficient provisions of law to ensure the protecteion of the cultural patrimony of ecclesiastical architecture. However, the problem with it is to ensure its enforcement. That is what groups like the FOSCC should concentarte on.
For instance, the enfprcement of the Planning Laws is left to the Local Authorit enforcement officer. It is not inconceivable that a Local Authority planning officer will not want to take action against a parish priest or bishop who sets about wrecking a protected structure. It is not inconceievable that such a planning officer or someone else from the Local Authority will privately contact a vandalistic priest or bishop to tell him to ensure not to wreck anything before the enforcement officer comes to view the site or to have everything back nicely in place when the enforcement officer comes to see what has been reported. A thousand other trickes of half-hearted enforcement could be cited. However, in circumstance such as these, an independent organisation such as the FOSCC could do great work ensuring that the Planning Act is enforced by taking action against the local authority or by complaining the local authority to the Local Authority Ombudsman or merely by publicising the activities (or lack thereof) of the loacl authority!!
Praxiteles utters words of wisdom here. Knowing the local (regional, and national) scene far better and longer than Rhabanus, he clearly sees the shortcomings of the proposal.
I suppose if those who, like the FOSCC, were really dedicated to the cause of preserving Ireland’s churches were to dog-pile on the miscreants, in the fashion of that Celtic Cerberus proposed earlier on this thread, then perhaps some of the more sensitive clergy would pick their way more gingerly around the ecclesiastical patrimony of the Emerald Isle. Nevertheless, the kind of vandalism that just erupted in Balintotis would simply continue, though under the cover of darkness. How to sharpen the teeth of Cerberus? And how to prevent him from succumbing to the sop tossed by the shrewd perpetrator?
The FOSCC needs to develop its muscle and train its eye in order to prevent further losses. Of course with liturgical terrorists and vandals, one never can tell whence the next incursion shall come.
One mantra to be adopted by FOSCC and fellow-travellers: KILLAVULLEN: NEVER AGAIN!!
@ake wrote:
a bit late in the day for that now.
The state needs to intervene and declare our churches national monuments.
The time is ripe for a series of astute episcopal appointments in Ireland. The Holy See can read the grafitti on the walls of the Irish churches still standing and decide to stamp its own signature on some of them. Plenty of room for signs and seals on the east wall – now The Wailing Wall – of Killavullen!
Rome itself has a Commision for the Cultural Goods of the Church. Ireland also should have one – headed up by an intelligent, well-educated, competent, common-sensed bishop who knows how to get things done and who will strive for the honour of God. Surely there must be a few such churchmen left in Ireland languishing, no doubt, in various backwaters or libraries lest their orthodoxy and talent challenge the status quo.
Chivvy them out of their holes and bruit about their excellences. The FOSCC might serve as a kind of clearing house for names of potential candidates for the role of president or chairman of The Cultural Goods of the Church in Ireland.
Such a watchdog organisation might be elevated, in due course and of course through the proper channels, to an ecclesiastical institution entrusted with the responsibility of supervising all sites that form the liturgical and cultural patrimony of the Church in Ireland.
This is far preferable to letting ‘the state’ (i.e. a brood of lawyers, politicians, bureaucrats, technocrats, and scamps of all description) get their hands on something they do not understand and ultimately would trade in for filthy lucre or the vain promise of power or even fleeting celebrity.
Consider a Commission for the Cultural Goods of the Church in Ireland.
@Praxiteles wrote:
As an example of the state approach to the preservation of churches:
Some Local Authorities and their conservation officers do not seem to realize that the paint scheme of a church (especially a Victorian Church) is an integral part of its overall composition and a major determinant of its character. Not knowing this, no distinction is made by some local authorities between painting the interior of a church and the interior of a domestic building or, for that matter, the interior of a protected cow shed. The result is that paint work is carried out on the interior of churches without planning permission or even a declaration. The results are nearly always awful!
So, if we happened to have something like the Sixtine Chapel in Ireland, there would be nothing to prevent its being painted pink as far as the local authorities are concerned. So……
In this situation of decline, the preservation of church buildings and cultural landmarks demands education in the fine arts. What are the seminaries and Catholic institutes of higher learning doing RIGHT NOW to educate future clergy and layfolk in Christian art, iconology, and architecture? Increasingly colleges and universities are directing funds into sciences and leaving the arts and classics to shrivel. And who makes these endowments? Usually business corporations. There is all too little awareness of the need to foster the arts and to value religion.
This is where the Church ought to be coming forward and exercising LEADERSHIP. Instead, time-servers, nincompoops, and other hackers are sneaking about pulling down sacristies and planning the destruction of more church interiors (e.g. Cobh). TAKE A GOOD LONG LOOK AT KILLAVULLEN, THEN ASK YOURSELF: WHAT KIND OF CHURCH PERSONNEL ALLOWED THIS TO HAPPEN?
WHEN will this travesty be reversed and repaired? Future generations are owed better. To say nothing of GOD!
@Praxiteles wrote:
Forgive Praxiteles for sounding somewhat conspiratorial but it is getting hard to avoid the conclusion that there must be an international wreckers guide to tell vandals how to assuage public fears about acts of barbarism they are contemplating practising on their churches.
Remember the infinitley forgettable Denis Reidy – the real Goetterdaemerung behind the attempt to wreck Cobh Cathedral. Well, he came up with the absurd explanation that it was necessary to demolish the altar rails and dig out the floor so that you could see [what would be left] of the moasic on the sanctuary floor.
Well, believe it or not we have another version of this coming from Kaposvar in Hungary – from the other side of Christendom! The thing runs this way: a small village church in the middle of the Hungarian pusta has Mass celebrated there in June in the old rite by a newly ordained priest. Now it happens that the bishop of Kaposvar is a die in the wool hater of the usus antiquior. So, to prevent a repeat, he orders the demolition of the altar so that the picture above and behind it can be seen!! Are we to believe that it has not been seen since the regression of the Turks?
Here is the relevant link:
Why is Rhabanus not surprised? That is precisely the cloth from which many prelates have been cut for the past 40+ years. Same old same old.
Rhabanus continues to ask the same two questions: (1) Who is rewarded? (2) Who is punished?
When one has answered these, one might proceed to a more fundamental question: WHY?
The ineluctable answer lies in the will of the Holy See. If the Holy See wants this behaviour to continue, it will continue. If the Holy See wants this behaviour to stop, an end will be put to it. Rome certainly has the mechanisms to do it.
The final question: WHEN will the Holy See at last decide that it finally has had enough of this ideologically-driven and relentless iconoclasm? The Holy See has the authority. When will it be used? How many more churches have to be destroyed before such behaviour is halted?
These iconoclasts and ideologues neither floated nor accidentally stumbled into their positions. They were appointed to them by the Holy See.
As Pius XI (1922-39) said to Cardinal Billot, “We have created thee; we can uncreate thee!” The red hat stayed behind in the audience hall while the ex-cardinal trundled off to his next event pruned of his scarlet plumage.
If Rome keeps promoting and coddling these birds. why should it be surprised when, like cuckoos, they lay their eggs at the nest of other birds?
‘Tis an ill bird that befouls its own nest.
Go to #1544 of this thread and behold the glory of Killavullen. Plenty of room for writing on this wall. It’s just waiting for the digitus Dei (finger of God) to give a message.
@Praxiteles wrote:
Thompson speaks about a shocking meaness in applying John Paul II’s Ecclesia Dei and he is quite correct. No concession was ever made in Cloyne and certauinly not in Cobh. In Down and Connor, the then Bishop Daly granted it on the fifth Sunday of any month in which there happened to be 5 Sundays. Other generous gestures could be mentioned but at this stage we are dealing with history.
The liturgical Soviets in France, Germany, Italy, Britain, and the US tried their best to block Summorum Pontificum but they did not reckon on some Bavarian insistence which saw them all talked into the ground. However, they have not given up. They are now trying to fence Summorum Pontificum in a damage limiting effort that has some pretty interesting hurdles e.g. a Latin examination for anyone wanting to say Mass according to the antiquior usus. Well, any priest faced with this piece of nonsense should demand [as is his right in law] that he be examined by his bishop through Latin. That should put a quick halt to to run for examinations. Otherwise, they might start encouraging parishioners to demand that their clergy be examined for doctrinal competence before being appointed to their parishes. That should also cause the examining hounds to falter in their tracks.
Can you just imagine priests being examined for competence in Latin by Danny Murphy, the Cloyne liturgist, who would be hard pressed to tell you the difference between “gradus” and “gradus”!!
A few weeks ago (beginning of August) the priest celebrating the midday Mass at the main altar of St Patrick’s Cathedral in New York said, during the Eucharistic Prayer (IV) “He (i.e. Jesus Christ] became a human person like us, etc.” Plenty of people heard this rejection of the Council of Chalcedon (AD 451) uttered over the loudspeaker system of the cathedral, and not a peep out of them. Where did the priest receive whatever training he did receive?
Prax is correct. What would happen if these priests ordained since 1965 (and even before that date!) had to acquit themselves by means of a doctrinal (or even catechetical!) examination before granting them faculties to celebrate Mass and hear confessions? You think there is a shortage of priests today? Could part of the problem lie in the way the Faith is communicated in catechism and in sacred liturgy to today’s Catholics?
Rhabanus returns to the WRITING ON THE WALL, and he doesn’t mean the walls of Ballintotis sacristy, now, sadly, a part of history!
@Praxiteles wrote:
Praxiteles is sorry to have to report that the sacristy in Ballintotis HAS BEEN DEMOLISHED. Passing that way this afternoon, Praxiteles viewed the destruction at first hand. Although a protected structure, no planning application was lodged for the works going on there and Cork County Council has no record of any declaration.
“Surely an enemy hath done this.”
This is liturgical vandalism at its most glaring. Why are the people of God not in an uproar?
And what ever came of the vote re the resignation of the Cloyne HACK??
How many resignations have turned up?
@Praxiteles wrote:
Any up dates on the situation?
It would be nice to have a wall on which to write in the first place.
And I do not refer to graffiti, either.
Does the Ballintotis sacristy still stand?
@Praxiteles wrote:
Re Ballintotis
Is anyone in a position to confirm that the sacristy of the church has been demolished in the night? Perhaps someone migt be able to trip over there and take a few pictures so that we can see the situation – one way or the other?
From Belshazzar’s Feast to the Walls of Jericho. Life in Ireland today seems crowded with incident.
@Praxiteles wrote:
This cannot be true. Ballintotis is a protected structure and I cannot imagine that any part of it could be demolished without planning permission. The church dates from 1839 and is probably by Brothre Michael Augustine O’Riordan. Given that so little of his oeuvre has survived the loss of any part of Ballintotis would be simply unconscienible.
Been done before, Prax. Flip back a thousand entries or so and you will see the completely gutted sanctuary of one of Br O’Riordon’s churches. Zen do? Or just bad karma? You tell me.
Even Daniel could’t interpret that one, because everything, including the lettering, was scraped off the walls. The only finger at work there was the middle digit, given to nearly two centuries of ecclesiastical tradition. Only a tabernacle on stilts remained – in the far right corner of the light box.
I suppose if you cross a beached whale with the Cloyne HACK, you get a WHACK. And if Gianlorenzo is correct, Ballintotis just got WHACKED!! Who had their eyes closed then?
@Praxiteles wrote:
In this second poll on the desirability of the HACK’s shuffling off the mortal coil which is open to viewers rather than contributors, it would seem that a similar pattern is emerging: practically no support for the Cloyne HACK’s continuation in office and overwhealming public demand for their resignation!.
Only two persons appeared to have given support to the HACK -which is an interesting sociological phenomenon not least in that it would seem to indicate that not even all the viweing members of the Cloyne HACK could muster the brains to vote for themselves! It looks as though we REALLY are face to face with the intelectually challenged!!
Vox populi, vox Dei.
Can they not read the writing on the wall?
I see the Persian letters spelling: MENE TEKEL PARSIN
Belshazzar’s feast (in which the sacred was put to profane use) is over. “Counted, weighed, and found wanting.”
The HACK is beginning to resemble a beached whale.
@ake wrote:
And I wonder why no one esle objected forcefully enough to prevent the ruination.
Some time-servers and idealogues listen to Earls and Countesses but not to others, even (or especially) when these others are right. Everyone, it seems, has a price. This is how poltroons and time-servers manage to keep their positions. Salve, lucrum!
