Rhabanus
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@ake wrote:
I was in the Sagrada Familia a couple of years ago. I don’t know if I like or hate it.
If nothing else, at least it shows a contemporary artist working from within the tradition of faith. Sotoo in this respect is advancing the cause of sacred architecture and demonstrating that the building of a cathedral in the great medieval tradition can and ought to be carried out today with state-of-the-art technology and fresh insights.
I presume that this is a reference to John Mason Neale, the renowned hymnographer and founder of the Cambridge Camden Society, which now glories under the name The Ecclesiology Society.
Here is the entry for him in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mason_Neale
The part about JMN being mauled at a funeral shows just what the iconoclasts would like to do today to lovers of the sacred liturgy. I myself was once stabbed in the hand by an iconoclast at a fondu party in Rome back in the early-Eighties. Luckily I survived to relate the tale. Nevertheless, it was a lesson well learned.
Re the photograph of JMN included in the entry: the expression suggests my own reaction to some of those shots of la sagrada familia, Spain.
@Praxiteles wrote:
A little snippet from A.G. Lough’s The Influence fo John Mason Neal:
It is also clear that Neal would have opposed the present demand for a central altar, which has come about through the modern Liturgical Movement. The Reverend Peter Hammons in a recent book, Liturgy and Architecture (1960) , emphasises that a church building must be a symbolic structure. “It must be informed from the outset by a theological understanding of its purpose”. Neal would have entirely agreed with this. But what precisely is a church meant to symbolize? Here Neal would have diffeded from Mr. Hammond. A church is meant to symbolize not simply the Church on earth, but the whole Churchin this life and in the life to come. In a medieval church tha chancel with its Rood Screen adorned with paintings of the saints, symbolized heaven and the final destiny of the People fo God. The chancel was the most vital and important part of the building. But the modern ecclesiologist would sweep all thi away, and have aplain building with a central altar and no apparent mystery or reminder of the world to come. Such a church would appear to symbolize only the CVhurch on earth, and leave out of account the great unseen Church in paradise and in Heaven. It would seem that the world to-day. with its material outlook, above all needs to be reminded that this world is not the end and purpose of all existence but only a preparation for what is to come…..The traditional plan of a medieval church was a symbol of this great truth” . So much for a 21 century sanctuary for a 21 century liturgy!!
@Praxiteles wrote:
Dieter!
The map here shows the gradients on the Mons Vaticanus behind St. Peter’s Basilica. As you can see, it is quite steep in some parts. This is basically the shape given to the Mons Vaticanus after the excavations of Constantine. The steep gradients indicate where the hill was “sliced” so that the Basilica could be fitted in to an exact spot dictated by the location of the tomb of St. Peter.
The satellite picture shows this phenomenon.
The same arrangement obtains in Rome’s Cathedral of the Most Holy Saviour (nicknamed St John Lateran because of it proximity to the chief baptistery of Rome – Constantine acquired the Lateran property through marriage). The apse is located in the west end of the building but the altar is oriented, that is, facing eastward. Hence the pope would celebrate the sacred mysteries at the high altar facing east, and the people too would have turned to face in the same direction. Constantine built the cathedral far from the centre of the City with its many pagan tmples, shrines, and other public monuments. In fact the area around the Lateran basilica was not much inhabited until the last part of the nineteenth century. The facade of the basilica greets visitors approaching from the Porta Maggiore. Its north transept faces the via Merulana, renowned since at least the year 700 (Ordo Romanus I) as the route of the elaborate papal procession on Easter morning and more recently as the route of the papal procession on Corpus Christi. The basilica was constructed to flank the earlier palazzo which Constantine donated to the pope. Perhaps this accounts for the arrangement of a western apse.
Saint Mary Major (S Maria Maggiore) is situated on a north-south axis. As the first church in Rome dedicated in honour of Mary Mother of God, (celebrating the title formally affirmed at the Council of Ephesus), it replaced a temple of Juno (Hera) where expectant mothers would pray for a safe delivery.
The fourth major basilica, St Paul’s, rebuilt in the 1820s after a fire, has its apse in the east end of the basilica over the tomb of St Paul. The Apostle’s coffin or supulchral urn has recently been excavated, although not opened.
The church of St Lawrence-outside-the-walls, near the famous cemetery Campo Verano, originally had its facade and narthex next to the ancient cemetery. The church was enlaged, or rather reconstructed, by Pope Pelagius, who built a basilica on the east end of the apse thereby reversing the direction or axis of the church. It seems a similar situation arose on the via Nomentana for the martyrial basilica of St Agnes.
As Quoheleth saith, “There is nothing new under the sun.”
Strange that the local ordinary utterly refuses to listen to the legitimate concerns and expectations of his flock and better informed clergy. Could there be dirty politics at work here? After all, who in his right mind could look at the current deplorable state of St Colman’s, register the volume and frequency of the complaints raised by the vast majority of the people within the diocese, and yet listen instead to the absurd proposals of the dotards who take up space on the inner council? How can such blindness go on?
And as for the ill-informed neophyte cleric with a four-summer-degree from an American institution, that man would do better to get himself a real education by touring the magnificent cathedrals and churches of Europe. It would profit him to take a course in ecclesiastical architecture from a reliable faculty with world-renowned expertise in these matters. Where has the young man published his views? To what ecclesiastical and scholarly societies does he belong? What, in short, are his credentials for fomenting ruinous plans for the venerable edifice of St Colman’s Cathedral?
Let the young man present his views on this site, pitting himself against such worthy stalwarts as our Praxiteles, Luzarches, and Ake. The proof, dear friends, lies in the pudding. A pity that the bishop cannot get a drift even amidst the blizzard.
Why is everyone ignoring the elephant in the parlour???
@samuel j wrote:
Spooky……. the gist of it, very apt to what the buffoons are responsible for at St. Colman’s. With a few amendments it could have been written last week…..
Praxiteles wrote:Here is the link:http://www.flickr.com/photos/58086761@N00/
The state of Giacomo della Porta’s altar is worse than I imagined. I cannot imagine that the present incumbent in Cashel was in his right senses when he agreed to this vandalism – it is just incredible that this should happen to one of the few important renaissance pieces in Ireland. Can anyone imagine anyone splitting the Pietà]
Thanks, Ake and Prax.
In absolute agreement with Prax on the vandalism at Thurles.
The selection of colours for the interior of a church is of far more importance than is generally acknowledged today in the Age of Hooper. This applies as much to the stained glass windows as to the walls in the sanctuary, the nave, and the various lateral and perambulatory chapels. In North America, the additional scourge of (wall-to-wall) carpets not only ruined acoustics but assaulted congregations with the most appalling colours. Moreover, from the perspective of simple hygiene, they are a catch-all of the most disgusting germs and contagions.
I could not help but notice that in some of the tastefully decorated churches, like Sts Augustine and John, the statuary included plaster-cast examples, This is unfortunate. Statues carved of limewood or oak and painted or polychromed according to medieval colour-schemes would enhance the overall effect, particularly in those churches of the Gothic Revival period.
Take a look, for example, at the work of Sir Ninian Comper in Downside Abbey, Somerset, England, which houses the body of the great Irish Martyr, St Oliver Plunkett.
Absolutely glorious, Prax! Scarcely believable that at least one Edward Pugin interior has survived intact. The stencilwork is amazing.
A pity that the view of the high altar is blocked by the ironing board out in front. I hope it is portable – so much more disposable that way. Perhaps a gift to Armagh on the occasion of their next renovation?
I am making my way through Anthony Symondson, sj, and Stephen Bucknall’s Sir Ninian Comper (Spire Books and the Ecclesiological Society, 2006). Splendid book! Thank you, Luzarches, for bringing it to our notice on this thread.
I hope that all readers marked Candlemas Day on 2 February in suitable fashion, complete with procession and blessing of candles, and that all availed themselves of the Blessing of Throats on the feast of St Blase (3 February).
@Praxiteles wrote:
Ake!
Here is an example of the kind of paint work you should expect to find in a neo-gothic church: E.W. Pugin’s St. Mary’s in Barrow in Furness
A pity that the impressive Celtic cross was removed and destroyed (or vice-versa).
The many pic’s are quite effective, Prax, in recreating the dawning of a brilliant idea and the process of bringing to reality a clear vision of “the new Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven.”
I hope that these rare and vintage depictions will reinforce in all visitors and contributors to the thread an even deeper appreciation for every sacrifice and every effort made to bring to fruition the project of St Coman’s Cathedral. Time to get with the programme of preserving and building up rather than “experimenting,” wrecking, and obfuscating.
A cathedral is the project of generations, each handing on to the next the great heritage to be developed and enhanced. Let this not be the generation which breaks faith with those who have gone before.
@Praxiteles wrote:
Re: c. 1869 picture of Cobh
The picture was was taken from the ground behind the houses on the extreme left of the third picture in posting 2355. The building on the extreme left of the picture in question may be part of the Crescent – but it is difficult to say. Clearly visible across the road from the church is the Bridewell – which was only demolished when the road in front of the Cathedral was finished.
I doubt very much that it would have been possible to keep this building and build the Cathedral on the same site. The site was already very restricted and required the building of a platform to gain extra ground. On the south side, the foundations of the platform go down 24 feet before reaching solid rock.
The church farther to the right was the Anglican church in Cobh. This was closed and eventually demolished in the 1960s (?) or possibly even later.
Interestingly, one of the former Administrators of Cobh was buried in front of the old church. His grave was preserved intact and eventually ended up on the inside of the south side aisle. The monument was there at least until the 1930s and then disappeared (apparently without trace). This monument is clearly visible in a picture taken c. 1912. Here is the picture:
@Praxiteles wrote:
To return briefly to the central oculus of the South Rose at St. Colman’s Cathedral, Cobh, Co. Cork, here is a view of the Star of the Sea depicted in that oculus:
I admire the fidelity here to mediaeval iconography in portraying Our Lady Star of the Sea with the Christ Child in her arms. It reinforces the greatest privilege and title of the Blessed Virgin Mary, namely, that of Mother of God (Theotokos). The medieval theologians and artists never lost sight of this cetral patristic insight and were careful to emphasise it in their treatises and in their art.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, the architects and artists of Cobh Cathedral are to be praised for dedicating the South transept, with its magnificent Stella Maris rose, to the sacramental power of water – all in the direction of the water surrounding the island.
@Praxiteles wrote:
Another example of the Mantes/Laon facade used by Pugin and Ashlin is to be found at the Cathedral of the Holy Rosary in Toledo, Ohio, built between 1925-1935.
This is a splendid cathedral from several perspectives. The iconographic program illustrating the Old Testament foreshadowings of the Mysteries of the Rosary is quite enlightening. The entire cathedral is an altogether impressive monument of faith.
@LeoWong wrote:
A parishioner has now written a letter to the bishop about the Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception in Albany, NY. A letter from the Cathedral Pastoral Advisory Council may follow.
A Letter to Bishop Howard J. Hubbard
Leo Wong
You have my full sympathy, Leo, but I fear that it will require more than Mrs W-S-‘s letter, worthy as it is, and that of the Pastoral Advisory Council to rout the wreckovators. Take a leaf from the faithful congregation of The Church of Our Lady in Guelph, Ontario. There the pastor had already commissioned Fr V to present his plans for that proposed ‘renovation.’ The faithful had to rise up and inform the pastor than no further funds would be forthcoming if he pursued the proposal. It took more than a few letters for that message to get through. When the pastor finally backed down and decided to restore rather than modernise the church, the parish ended up having to pay the ‘architect’ something in the area of $50,000.00 -just for the plans!
If the bishop has already commissioned the architect, then you will have to be more assertive in your opposition to the proposed plan.
All the best in your efforts to retain the integrity of your church.
Luzarches wrote:Fearg wrote:Some shots of Notre Dame de Paris in March 2004 – the crossing was being re-ordered at this time:I think that the crossing had been reordered some time before that]
Dead-on, Luzarches. A dog’s breakfast it is. Can the incumbent of Cloyne and his crew be sent into exile in Paris?
Cum ergo venerit dominus vineae quid faciet agricolis illis?
Aiunt illi, “malos male perdet et vineam locabit aliis agricolis qui reddant ei fructum temporibus suis.”
Dicit illis Iesus, “Numquam legistis in scripturis, ‘lapidem quem reprobaverunt aedificantes hic factus est caput anguli; a Domino factum est istud, et est mirabile in oculis nostris’? Ideo dico vobis quia auferetur a vobis regnum Dei et dabitur genti facienti fructus eius et qui ceciderit super lapidem istum confringetur super quem vero ceciderit conteret eum.”
Mt 21:40-44; cf. Ps 117:22,23; Act 4:11; 1 Pt 2:7.
@Praxiteles wrote:
KB!
Here is the likn to the text which is The Lamentations of the Prophet Jeremiah
http://benedictumxvi.va/archive/bible/nova_vulgata/documents/nova-vulgata_vt_lamentationes_lt.html
And Dante’s use of the famous phrase in his Vita Nuova
http://www.fh-augsburg.de/~harsch/italica/Cronologia/secolo14/Dante/dan_vit3.html
And forget not his famous line:
Li occhi dolenti per pietà del core
hanno di lagrimar sofferta pena,
sì che per vinti son remasi omai.
Ora, s’i’ voglio sfogar lo dolore,
che a poco a poco a la morte mi mena,
convènemi parlar traendo guai.@Fearg wrote:
Some shots of Notre Dame de Paris in March 2004 – the crossing was being re-ordered at this time:
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Rebecca Baltzer has done an excellent study of the iconographic programme of Notre Dame de Paris, with its focus on the Incarnation and Nativity (through the lens of the life and glorification of the Blessed Virgin Mary), and of the Sainte Chappelle with its focus on the Passion of Christ. The latter was intimately linked to the prerogatives and privileges of the Crown and of the Royal Family (St Louis IX and his mother Bd Blanche of Castile) over against the Diocese of Paris. Louis IX constructed the Sainte Chapelle as an elaborate reliquary for the Crown of Thorns. As part of the inauguration of the Sainte Chapelle, the Crown of Thorns was placed for several moments on the head of St Louis, thereby associating him iconographically with Christ as Rex Pacificus.
Those were the days when Catholics knew how to build houses of worship – and did so with unparalleled elan.
Now we live in what Evelyn Waugh so aptly called in Brideshead Revisited “the Age of Hooper.”
@Praxiteles wrote:
Cathedral of he Assumption of Our Lady, Thurles, Co. Tipperary by JJ MCCarthy
Here we havd a treat in that the Rose Window is based not on French models but on North Italian models and specifically on that in Pisa.
There is much to be said in favour of the juxtaposition of church, baptistery, and bell tower, as in the Cathedral of the Assumption of Our Lady, Thurles, Co.Tipperary. The current rites prescribe processions from one place to another, but does anyone follow the rites?
Lazy-A’s frequently plunk down a font right in the sanctuary, completely eliminating the drama of the processions from the baptistery to the church and the sanctuary. No sense of being incorporated by successive stages into the Mystical Body of Christ, no respect for the integrity of the rites themselves. Just shove every conceivable item of junk into the sanctuary and cram it with more kitschy debris so that the PP doesn’t have to move more than two feet in any one direction.
At one stage, a mulish pastor in a suburban parish (Our Lady of Peace) in Islington, Ontario tore the font out of the baptistery located near the entrance of the church and put wheels on it so that it could be pushed from the sacristy to the sanctuary when needed. He turned the beautiful baptistery into a closet for vestments. It likewise stored carrels of hymnals – another bane of liturgical life today. In other words, the once beautiful baptistery became a catch-all for junk.
All this of course is contrary to the teachings of Vatican II, which actually direct that seminarians learn sound artisitic principles and likewise the Church’s rich heritage of music (which does not include hymns at Mass).
The relentless dumbing-down of religion in general and of the sacred liturgy in particular fosters nothing but intellectual laziness and spiritual lassitude. No wonder the seminaries are having a tough time attracting and keeping good candidates for the priesthood. Young people are finding standards of excellence elsewhere and they are registering their preference with their feet.
The new generation of Catholics is not nearly as enamoured of the wrecking ball as were the riff and the raff of the ’60s “go-go” generation. How could anyone drive from his memory “the bright young things” of a witless era wiggling their bottoms, thrumming “Cumbaya” on the ubiquitous guitar, and piercing the dignified silence of God’s House with their infernal ululations? How did we ever survive that dark age? It reminded one of the warning issued by Pope St Pius X (reigned 1903-1914) in his motu proprio Tra le sollecitudini (22 November 1903): “And it is vain to hope that the blessing of heaven will descend abundantly upon us, when our homage to the Most High, instead of ascending in the odour of sweetness, puts into the hand of the Lord the scourges wherewith of old the Divine Redeemer drove the unworthy profaners from the Temple.”
I mean, are people really blind?? Is the difference between a splendid rose window like that in the west facade of Maynooth, and the sordid oratory thrown together in the seminary like the wreck of the Hesperus not evident even to the most casual observer?
Does one have to have a mitre placed on one’s head before low, common garbage begins to look like art and the apogee of iconographic art begins to bore?
Is it a loss of faith or of one’s mind that accounts for such base hankering-after the indisputably UGLY?
@Praxiteles wrote:
A detail of the Great West Rose by JJ McCarthy at Maynooth College Chapel
Absolutely glorious! The photo reveals remarkable detail. This represents the highest achievement of true ecclesiastical art.
As the hippies, yippies, and yahoos used to sing in the 1960s, “Where have all the flowers gone?”
@Praxiteles wrote:
The money ran out. Fortunately another example of a similar gallery at Monaghan Cathedral did have its statues installed.
Strange it is indeed that the money failed for that project. Why could funds be found, instead, for the wreckovated St Mary’s “oratory” or whatever it is called, with its relentless horizontalism not to mention that unspeakably ridiculous (and disturbing) cloistral garden of The Nature Boy.
Give me Irish saints any day over that trash!
Some stunning examples to be sure. The modern samples, though, seem to me a complete waste of time, effort , and expense.
I am intrigued by the Catherine wheels which show up in many of them.
@Praxiteles wrote:
Interesting studies of Rose WIndows:
@Praxiteles wrote:
JJ McCarthy’s Maynooth College Chapel
Rose Window (exterior)
A pity that those niches are not filled with statues of Irish saints!
@Praxiteles wrote:
Yes, I think the time has arrived to turn up the heat on the issue of the shameful neglect and casual vandalism of Cobh Cathedral. I am inclined to propose a coalition of interested conservationist groups: An Taisce, The Irish Georgian Society, the Pugin Society, the Victorian Society, and the FOSCC. An umbrella group such as this will certainly move the indolent pot-sitters in Cobh Urban District Council and in the Cathedral Restoration Steering Committee.
Three cheers for Prax and the victory of Common Sense! Turn up that heat, and rout the parade of poltroons, popinjays, and parvenues who are allowing the magnificent cathedral of St Colman’s, Cobh, to crumble around them. Whilst the poltroons take their leisure, and the popinjays strut their plumage, and the parvenues indulge their taste for the vulgar, such a coalition of well-respected and responsible groups would soon put an end to the St Colman’s Follies. Hold them to account for the debacle of decay and desuetude threatening the very existence of that world-heritage site! ADVANCE!!!
And do look into the possibility of having St Colman’s declared a world-heritage site. It remains a unique masterpiece of 19th-cent. neo-Gothic architecture.
