Rhabanus
Forum Replies Created
- Posts
@ake wrote:
Yes, many plaster statues have grossly deformed hands as a result of tentative restorations. That reminds me of something. In SS Peter and Paul Cork, I was sorry to notice that quite alot of the magnificent woodwork has been damaged, and not just single fingers]5191[/ATTACH]
There used to be a man somewhere in the mid-western USA who would repair hands of statues by substituting hands from mannequins and dolls. He had a whole garage full of these wares. He got them as castoffs from department- and clothing-stores, as well as from thrift shops.
Some statuary factories now make the hands separately and insert them after delivery. They are suspended by a small nail within the sleeve of the saint and then glued lightly so that the head of the nail can be filed down and then the sleeve painted. In the event of an “accident,” an act of vandalism, or an excess of piety (common among south-Asians who feel the need to grab the feet and hands of statues, holding them for inordinate lengths of time), the damaged hands can be removed without difficulty and new hands inserted. Of course, this is alot of bother, so if you can get marble or wood, it makes a better investment in the long run.
KerryBog2 wrote:Rhabanus wrote:It may be of interest to some readers that commissioning one of the ateliers in Rome (or northern Italy or the Tyrol) is less expensive than ordering one in vinyl or fibreglass. I should think that the most shocking expense related to commissioning a marble statue from, say, Carrara, would be the shipping overseas.
The artisans who painted the statues shown above deserve high praise and more commissions.QUOTE]
Shipping from Italy is not that expensive]
Very interesting! Shipping costs are frightful to North America. Until recently, the shipping even of books was beyond all reasonable proportion – that at least has been corrected.
Strange, though, that a carved wooden statue costs less than a vinyl or fibreglass copy! A parish on this side of thepond has been searching for a statue of St Bernadette as a nun. There are plenty of statues depicting her as the peasant seer of Lourdes kneeling before th egrotto, with candle in hand. The pastor inquired about a statue of St Bernadette in religious life and was told in May 2007 that the sculpting of a wooden statue would be more economical than a fibreglass copy – and that the shipping to North America would be astronomical.
Very pleased to learn that at least Ireland is doing well in the current economy.
@ake wrote:
Generic plaster statues may seem cheap and unsophisticated to some but I really like them, and not every church, in Ireland at least, can have expensive marbles, so they’re a good substitute. Here are some from St.Audeon’s in Dublin
[ATTACH]5167[/ATTACH][ATTACH]5168[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH]5169[/ATTACH][ATTACH]5170[/ATTACH]
This is from Waterford Cathedral
[ATTACH]5172[/ATTACH]
This is from St.Francis Xavier’s in Dublin
[ATTACH]5171[/ATTACH]
Which also houses an interesting set of four, one of which is
[ATTACH]5173[/ATTACH]
Could these be wood? The writing on the scroll says N.D. du Sacre coeur something I can’t read then the date of 7 sep 1875. Anyone know anything about them?My chief complaint about plaster statues is that they chip all too easily. [Note the little chip at the base of Notre Dame du Sacre Coeur.] Also, they are too susceptible to heat and dampness. Once a digit or a hand is broken, the repairs are usually obvious and often don’t last long.
In North America, far too many amateur ‘painters’ have applied their “talents” to such statues with appallingly hideous results. Garish colours slapped on indiscriminately with no attempt at shading or subtlety detract from the statues. The poor deserve better than that! And the poor are the ones forced to look at the handiwork of these ‘artistes.’
In the case of those statues presented here, thanks to ake, the molds were excellent, and painters with real talent were allowed to bring the statues to life. These are in excellent taste.
It may be of interest to some readers that commissioning one of the ateliers in Rome (or northern Italy or the Tyrol) is less expensive than ordering one in vinyl or fibreglass. I should think that the most shocking expense related to commissioning a marble statue from, say, Carrara, would be the shipping overseas.
The artisans who painted the statues shown above deserve high praise and more commissions.
No offence intended to poor parishes or communities which cannot afford “top of the line” statuary. Better, in fact, to have a plaster statue stained in muted tones (off-white and sepia) than to display some garishly painted figure which could haunt a house.
@ake wrote:
It’s worse than a skull]http://www.flickr.com/photos/markwaldron/284897603/[/url]
I understand the purpose and function of the votive candles, reflected in the glass casing; but what are the green buttons/bulbs all about? They seem rather indecorous. Vaguely reminiscent of Las Vegas, or a scene fro the old Dr Who.
Perhaps the curator of St Oliver Plunkett’s shrine would do well to furnish a sign explaining to visitors why the Church venerates the sacred relics of her martyrs, lest they be exposed to further scorn and ridicule by ill-conditioned tourists. A well-worded rationale might elicit sentiments of sympathy and respect for a martyr of conscience.
In any case, the green light gives offence and cheapens the exposition of the relic.
@ake wrote:
St.Peter’s, Drogheda
[ATTACH]5165[/ATTACH]
happy to report that the church is in a very good state. You might even say a very fine state indeed. The altar and rails are in fine condition, and there’s good decoration the chancel and ceiling, some very nice stenciling in the sanctuary actually. There are no brutal modern obstructions as far as I noticed, the only thing being the shrine for Oliver Plunkett’s head, which I quite liked. There’s a little bit of an exhibition around it, but nothing terrible. It’s disgusting though IMO. Can they not put it in a cover!
Some photographs of the church here http://www.flickr.com/photos/58086761@N00/sets/72157600701954392/Glorious! Even the plaster statues are painted in excellent taste.
The stencilwork in the sanctuary is amazing. Note in the reredos how the tabernacle is flanked by Sts Peter (with keys) and Paul (with sword) each in his own exquisite Gothic niche. The spire arising from above the tabernacle proclaims the real Presence with verve.Any photos of St Oliver Plunkett’s head? I once visited his body at Downside Abbey not far from Glastonbury.
The custom now in Rome is to cover the skulls with a silver mask often made, especially in the case of modern saints, from a death mask taken at the time of expiration, thereby providing a true likeness of the saint while mitigating the visitor’s experience of looking directly at a skull,
@Praxiteles wrote:
And here is a little something destined to sort out the liturgical guffers:
http://212.77.1.245/news_services/bulletin/news/20558.php?index=20558&lang=en
Thanks, Prax.
Had something this sensible come out three decades ago, perhaps Ireland’s churches would be in better condition today. This certainly would have been the case elsewhere.
The well reasoned and pacific tome of the letter preceding the Motu proprio is a triumph of ecclesiastical governance reminiscent of St Gregory the Great (reigned 590-604).
The Motu proprio itself is clear and direct. Let’s see how much ambiguity les gufferois will try to read into it.
Rhabanus notes that the generous use of the ritual books includes the sacraments, but nothing is mentioned specifically about the sacramentals. Rhabanus presumes that the use of the Rituale Romanum is covered in this case, given the Holy See’s willingness to allow exorcists to use the older rite of exprcism contained in the Roman Ritual. He was informed in May 2007, however, by an “expert” with considerable clout in North America, that any of the blessings in the Roman RItual published before the De benedictionibus (Book of Blessings) are valid but “illicit”! “Illicit”??? This was stated rather confidently in the hearing of seminarians, who seemed to concur with the Big Noise. He said that although he dislikes some of the new blessings assigned, he nevertheless uses them out of “obedience” so that the faithful would be deprived neither of the spritual goods of the Church nor of their right to show obedience to the Church’s authority. It is precisely this kind of talk (dipped in the honeyed phrasing of sanctimonious drivel) that gave rise in the first place to all the trouble over liturgy that Benedict XVI is trying to resolve.
Rhabanus trusts that the Big Noise is now reading with care and attention the Motu proprio and its introductory letter over a martini on Lake Garda, where he is currently taking his leisure from the burdens of liturgical governance in America.
@Praxiteles wrote:
This is Giacomo della Port’s Tabernacle which has been rather badly mutilated by the latest round of liturgical nonsense and Unfug in Thurles Cathedral. I have seen drawings of the interior of the Gesu with the Tabernacle in situ. It will take a while to doig them out.
The Tabernacle was bought from teh Jesuits by Archbishop Leahy in 1870 while he was attending the First Vatican Council.
The Tabernacle was bought from the Jesuits by Archbishop Leahy in 1870 while he was attending the First Vatican Council
Some people would sell their soul for fthe right price.
Cardinal George Mundelein of Chicago tried to buy the column of the Immaculate Conception in Rome’s Piazza di Spagna (in front of what once was the College de Propaganda Fide where John Henry Newman, among other illustrious churchmen, prepared for ordination to the Catholic priesthood). The Italian government declined the offer.
Why were the Jesuits so willing to sell their tabernacle? Were they expecting a saccage of the Gesu by the govt of the Risorgimento?
On the matter of selling souls, there was a fellow in the southern USA who, back in the 1960s, would offer to buy peoples souls. The transaction was usually carried out in a bar, where various characters would be glad to have some $$ for booze. A good number of those who had “sold their souls” to him would later track him down, even though he had moved on to other, distant communities. To his dismay, they wanted to redeem their souls for the money they had given him when they were in their cups.
In the film “O Brother, Where Art Thou?” a jazz musician from the Deep South is questoned by a fellow musician about having sold his soul to the devil in order to become proficient in his jazz-playing.
“Do you mean to say that you actually sold your soul to the devil? How could you do such a thing?”
“Well, I weren’t using at the time.”I’d be interested to know how much the Archbp of Thurles paid for the Jesuits’ tabernacle.
A pity it has been dislodged from the high altar.To revive, if only briefly, a topic raised by ake and, later by Prax, 29 June, the Feast of Sts Peter and Paul marked the day when rushes or new-mown hay were brought in procession to churches and ceremonially strewn therein as a floor-covering. Charles Kightly’s Perpetual Almanack of Folklore (London and New York: Thames and Hudson, 1987) informs us that “rushcarts with towering flower-bedecked loads of plaited rushes were the focus of the procession.” This featured prominently in north-western England during the Middle Ages. Is anyone aware of a similar custom in medieval or pre-modern Ireland?
Kightly provides some verses:
Good Day to you, ye merry men all
Come listen to our rhyme
For we would have you not forget
This is Midsummer time
So bring your rushes, bring your garlands
Roses, John’s Wort, Vervain too
Now is the time for our rejoicing
Come along Christians, come along do.
[Bishop’s Castle Rushbearing Song, Shropshire (modified)]A happy St Petertide and midsummer to all!
Praxiteles wrote:Just give me a while qnd I will answer that question]Posting a “before” picture is a risky enterprise for those in the business of “renovating” churches. The evidence is too incriminating.
@samuel j wrote:
Sad indeed……….. and when you think of all the money that has been squandered by those in control….even a minute portion of the Re-ordering costs…could have bought alot of sandpaper, varnish and hammerite for the doors…
Has no one in responsibility addressed the matter of the doors? Not just a waste of money but also of time. The longer this mess is postponed, hte more costly will be the repair.
Why the shilly-shallying? Have the coffers been depleted as a result of reckless spending elsewhere? Such as architect fees for the proposed ‘alterations’ to the cathedral sanctuary?
@Fearg wrote:
I don’t know if its been mentioned on this thread, but Pete McCarthy’s book “The road to McCarthy” has a rather amusing chapter about Cobh, including the proposed changes to the Cathedral..
For those of us who have no access to the book mentioned, please give us the highlights of the chapter on Cobh. We eagerly await your summary! Good to hear from you Fearg!
I notice a fair number of publications, nearly all of them quite dubious, about the famous labyrinth in the cathedral of Chartres. A number of them promote a kind of “spirituality” of the labyrinth. Are there any labyrinths in Irish churches?
It all seems rather tiresome. I have no idea what people are seeking to accomplish by this New Age stuff. Then again, how does one address the ‘conversion’ of a church like St Mary’s, Dublin into a pub??
“I also notice that the Christmas crib was still hanginga round the place at Easter!!! What kind of liturgical insight is conveyed by this haphazard coincidence?”
How else is the Easter Bunny supposed to find the Little Drummer Boy? Is it true that in Ireland three Leprechauns visit the manger on March 17th? Or is that only in those leap years when the groundhog sees his shadow?
The latest trend over this way, by the bye, is the installation of labyrinths in modern churches. At first it was only in churches of the other persuasion. But now Catholics are installing them with great gusto. ‘Getting back to their pagan roots,’ so I’ve been told. The propaganda preceding and accompanying the installation of the labyrinth alleges that walking the labyrinth provides good therapy for the mind oppressed by worldly and weighty cares. I should have thought that such ‘therapy’ might be found rather in the confessional.
Do readers of this thread use the labyrinth much? Comments? … Reflections? … Confessions?
@Praxiteles wrote:
St. Colman’s Cathedral, Cobh Co. Cork
Here is aphotograph of the interior taken in February 2007. You will note that the Christmas decorations are still hanging from the choir gallery. Can soem one tell me why the liturgically sensitive who are running Cobh Cathedral were so slovenly and lazy that they could get around to taking these decoration down at the end of the liturgical season?
I also notice that the Christmas crib was still hanginga round the place at Easter!!! What kind of liturgical insight is conveyed by this haphazard coincidence?
Perhaps the local intelligentsia have subscribed to the sentimental message that ‘every day is Christmas.’ As one N American metropolitan (who at last has gone to his reward) was wont to say, “Liturgy is: whatever happens!” Prax, you are just too uptight about the liturgical year. You probably think that the liturgical year is a cyclical rotation of seasons and feasts that, over the course of the week, and the year, present the paschal mystery of Christ as seen in the life of Our Lord, Our Lady, and the saints.
You likely expect the year to reflect Christian order and be predictable. How narrow and uncreative of you. If you were in a seminary, novitiate, or house of formation, doubtless you would be labeled (libeled) as “rigid” or “conservative” or some other contemptible name. Then you would be discarded and cast upon the ash-heap of history, not unlike those marble slabs piled up beside the holy water dispenser.
The modern metropolitan would have encouraged you to go with the flow and let it all hang out. Christmas at Easter or mid June? Why not? Summer solstice, winter solstice … who’s keeping score, anyway? Don’t worry … be happy! Merry Xmas, Prax!
@Praxiteles wrote:
Rhabanus!
Do you know anything of the origin -Classical, I suspect – of covering the floors of the Roman churches with bay leaves? It is still done for the Stationes in Santa Sabina and in San Clemente.
For those not familiar with Roman stational liturgy, suffice it to say that in the Middle Ages, the pope with his entourage would celebrate Mass each day of Lent and the Easter Octave (and other significant feast days) at a different region of the City (Rome was divided into 7 regions with a deacon in charge of each region). This stational liturgy allowed the faithful of the City a chance to see the pope officiating in their region on a kind of regular basis. The elaborate protocols of this procedure can be read in Ordo Romanus I – the rite of the pope proceeding on his mount from the Lateran palace (chief papal residence in the early Middle Ages) to St Mary Major on Easter morning. Cuthbert Atchley provides a rather arch English translation of Ordo Romanus I for those who do not [yet] read Latin. [The best critical edition of Ordo Romanus I is found in Michel Andrieu, Ordines Romani, vol. I. The Latin grammar is quite easy and the vocabulary highly technical, which makes for easy, even entertaining, reading. Have a go and enjoy!]
A custom obtained in the Roman basilicas and churches of strewing the floors with bayleaves in order to deodorise the building during the liturgical rites and devotions, in view of the great crowds that would gather to participate in the papal Mass. [In the British Isles and northern countries, which suffered from rainy and damp weather, rushes or straw would be strewn in churches, halls, and manor houses in order to absorb the mud and dirt from the feet of pilgrims and visitors.] In the sunny Italian peninsula, bayleaves, when crushed underfoot, would emit an attractive fragrance, thereby enhancing the festal ambiance of the church.
Those who recall attending the stational liturgies during Lent in Rome back in the 1960s and 1970s mention how the cosmatesque floor of santa Sabina (the station for Ash Wednesday) would turn green as the feet of the congregation crushed the bayleaves generously strewn over the floor. The green staining, I should imagine, required much effort at cleaning on the days after the celebration. I suspect that this is what may have led to the general suspension of the custom.
The last of the stational churches to maintain the tradition of the bayleaves, in my memory, was san Lorenzo in Damaso (now the venue of Rome’s chancery and the Church’s Centro per i Beni Culturali). The bayleaves in the mid-1980s were sparsely strewn on the bema of the confessio and on the communion rails – hardly a place where they would be crushed underfoot.
I regret the decline of this custom as it was organic on various levels and carried on a venerable tradition that enhanced the general liturgical experience. Are there no Romans left in the Eternal City?? O tempora! O mores!
@Rhabanus wrote:
I suppose that some of Ireland’s most exquisite Neo-Gothic churches would make lovely mosques.
Question: Is any church in Ireland still decorated with Barnaby garlands on 11 June – feast of St Barnabas? The custom is to deck out the church with garlands of roses and sweet woodruff. On the Julian calendar the feast of St Barnabas (or Barnaby) fell near the summer solstice, hence close to the longest day of the year.
Those entrusted with the decoration of sanctuaries and churches may wish to consult the following sources:
Bonnie Blackburn and Leofranc Holford-Stevens, Oxford Companion to the Year (Oxford University Press, 1999)], the rich patrimony of folklore and custom became neglected. There are all kinds of customs associated with feasts and seasons that either have disappeared or are now in danger of becoming lost. We are losing touch with our broader religious and devotional heritage.
Do any readers of this thread work on church gardens or decorate the interiors of churches or sanctuaries? As several readers have pointed out, there is much poverty of expression in this regard. Bad taste and inappropriate arrangements can detract from the architectural beauty of a church or altar, whereas thoughtful arrangements done with taste and attention to seasons and feasts can enhance the experience of liturgical prayer and foster authentic devotion.
Did any (Franciscan) churches yesterday (13 June), for example, bless and distribute lilies in honour of St Anthony of Padua or bless and distribute St Anthony’s bread?
The trillium, provincial flower of Ontario, Canada usually flourishes around Trinity Sunday. The flower has three white petals and three green leaves. A beautiful reminder of the Holy Trinity (as likewise the Irish shamrock is an apt symbol of the Blessed Trinity).
@Praxiteles wrote:
I do not know. But, I am inclined to think that the simple answer to that question must be no!
Readers of this thread may be interested in the June 2007 issue of The Catholic World Report which runs a special feature by Michael Kelly titled “From Saints to Secularists” on the decline of the Christian religion and culture in Ireland today. The front cover presents a photo of the former St Mary’s Church, Dublin, now “converted” into a pub (Keating’s Pub, in fact) with the banner: “After Christianity: How the Irish are losing civilization.”
The photo shows a bar erected in the nave of old St Mary’s. The organ and galleries seem in good condition.
What is going on over there?
@Praxiteles wrote:
Indeed, I completely agree. There was a stencil scheme not only in the sanctuary area but throughout this church. It got paintd out in the late 50s or early 60s. After a period of consistent improvments, unfortunately, it was unlucky enough to have a succession of caretakers who entered into a reverse improvement mould. This last proposition for the church is, of course, beyond all.
Are pastors subject to any tests, such as jurisdictional examinations? Any term limits for the senile, the non- compos mentis, and the incompetent? Since only a rare few priests in Ireland have any background or upper-level education in sacred architecture, sacred art, and sacred music, should there not be strict limits imposed on just what a pastor can do to the church buildings entrusted to his care by the proper authority?
@Praxiteles wrote:
This is the best I can do for the moment.
Here we have the sanctuary that is facing surreptious demolition.
And here we a have a vew of the roof trusses over the crossing.
The interior, it must be confessed, needs some “picking up”, but not the kind that the pastor likely has in mind.
First, I should weigh in this time with ake and Prax on the posies – get rid of the spray plunked down in front of the altar, impeding the path of the celebrant at the incensations. The two little bouquets on either end of the altar belong more properly off the mensa of the altar and besode the tabernacle.Put a veil on that tabernacle. Why the aversion to the tabernacle veil in Ireland? It is the veil, not the candle or sanctuary lamp, which reflects faith in Christ’s real presence in the Blessed Sacrament. The candle is a sign of the perpetual adoration and devotion of the faithful in view of the reality signified by the veil.
To the dump with that pulpit hanging! It is overly busy and tired-looking.
The cross is the central image of the Christian religion. What the deuce is it doing as a sconce for lamps on either side of that magnificent East window?
The place could do with some serious cleaning. Better lighting wouldn’t hurt, either.
And, while you’re at it, for Heaven’s sake (!) get rid of that ridiculous purple paint on the outer doors. Sand down the doors and varnish them in order to accentuate the qualities of the wood.
Honestly! Doesn’t anyone over there have the taste and the intestinal fortitude to suggest to the pastor that he’s barking up the wrong pole and would do better to spend some time conducting a capital campaign to restore the church to its original plan instead of treacherously planning to wrecovate his church?
