Rhabanus
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@ake wrote:
The friary, Killarney]5645[/ATTACH]
Ooh-la-la! C’est magnifique. Comme toute est belle!
One question: why two Madonna and Child statues? One on the main altar matching St Patrick and the other in the side altar on the Gospel side (matching St Anthony)? Not sure I get that one. Perhaps someone can clarify? I’m all for exuberance, but do appreciate some logic sprinkled in for good measure.
[Very glad the photographer trimmed the lectern / podium, which doubtless would have contrasted odiously with the magnificent altar.]
@Praxiteles wrote:
Ake!
These shots will give some idea of the sanctuary of Charleville Church. The mosaic work is stupendous and by the Dublin Craftworkers Guild. Unfortunately, it is in a poor state at the moment and in need of conservation and maintenance. Water ingress has caused blistering and sections of it are in danger of falling off of the the wall.
The mosaic work IS stupendous; so is the East window, featuring the Exaltation of the Holy Cross.
I regret, though, that someone has been fiddling with the altar in the photo.
Note that the niches on either end of the reredos contain not marble statues, but brass amphorae or ewers. What gives here? What happened to the marble statues that originally would have adorned those niches? Quite inept replacements. What is the message being conveyed here?
@Praxiteles wrote:
The abbatial church of Ste Marie Madelaine, Abbey of Le Barroux, near Avignon in Provence.
Looks like Heaven on earth!
Thank you for that glimpse of the eternal liturgy offered in the New Jerusalem.
Love that exquisite statue of Our Lady to the viewer’s left (the Gospel side) of the sanctuary.
Note that Our Lady’s is the Gospel side!
@Praxiteles wrote:
Some more shots of the interior of the chuch of the Immaculate Conception, Kanturk, Co. Cork
The cabana over in the side aisle sticks out like a sore thumb.
What a glaring contrast with the graceful pulpit. No attempt even at a retro-fit.And that easel down below MUST GO!
Too much visual noise going on there.
Too bad the stencilling in the sanctuary is all gone.
Another bare ruined choir.
@ake wrote:
Lovely! Beautiful carved stone on the pillars and arches.
Those exit signs awful. I don’t really see how they’re required either. Certainly, there’s no consistency about their use.
Agreed. If the fools insist on illuminating the doors, then that on the viewer’s left (Gospel side) ought to read “Introit” and that on the viewer’s right (Epistle side) can simply remain “Exit.”
The procession in the Roman rite is always made counter-clockwise. It dates from the ancient Roman processiona into the via sacra after great battles. The counter-clockwise movement was a means of ritual purification after contact with blood (in this case, war). The counter-clockwise direction obtained in the Christian dispensation with the great procession into St Mary Major on the Esquiline Hill (where pagans had invoked the goddess Juno in time of expectancy and childbirth) for the feast of Our Lady’s Purification – Candlemas Day, 2 February. Again, the idea of ritual purification after contact with blood (in this case on the fortieth day after the Nativity of the Lord). The tradition still holds in the Stations of the Cros, which go in a counter-clockwise direction except where some idiot took them down and put them up in the opposite direction. [The opportunity for this kind of error was minimalised when bishops had to erect the stations canonically.]
If the pastor needs signs telling him where to enter and exit, then perhaps he really is, as we say in the liturgical milieu, “more lost than a Jesuit in Holy Week.”
Heaven help us!
@Praxiteles wrote:
Not in the least! It is always pleasure to have the public afforded the opportunity to assess the work of the Cloyne HACK.
Some folks wouldn’t get the drift in the middle of a snowstorm!
Some of those old chestnuts on the HACK have been hanging about since the heady days of the ‘Sixties, known then as “the age of Aquarius.” How interesting that they should have taken their cue from something as pagan as the zodiac. Then they were riding the crest of the wave.
Flux was the order of the day and Heraclitus was the prophet of the age.
Now that the tide has gone out – and heaven only knows its ultimate destination – these relics are still floating about like driftwood. They are a little weatherbeaten and scented with brine, but they still want to be centre-stage.
Time to put them in a bottle and send them out again to sea. They drifted in, like the trends, and they can just as easily drift back out – and make room for those with vision and sound principles.
Here is the contrast: the HACK and its servile posture toward ephemera and trendism, over against those who live and operate by principles. The classic versus the fashion of the day.
Rhabanus favours an embrace of the eternal, the unfading, the classic. Send the trendies on their way. Time for the HACK to hit the track! And don’t come back.
@Praxiteles wrote:
To return to the question of our little poll re the Cloyne HACK, I have to note that after nearly a week NOBODY has lifted a finger to suggest that the Cloyne HACK should not do the decent thing and RESIGN. ALL who voted throught the HACK should go – and several were emphatic in that view.
So…..HACK, what are you waiting for. Start writing those little letters. For the graphicalled challenged, a single line will do. And for those who cannot manage that, we can fix it such a way that all that has to eb done is to scratch an “X” at the end of the page!!
Parting is such sweet sorrow.
@Praxiteles wrote:
Church of the Immaculate Conception, Kanturk, Co. Cork
To return to the question of the recent alteratiosn effected on the sacristy door of this church, it appears that the practice of eliminating steps from historical entrances is, for some strange reason. widespread. Here is an example from St. Mary’s Cathedral, Killarney, Co. Kerry.
Was this done in order to accommodate wheelchairs?
@Praxiteles wrote:
Ake!
As always, very nice shots.
The only thing that causes me to wonder is why they have not started to build bungalows and glass towers all over the medows surrounding the Cathedral in Killarney. That is all that would be needed to finished off the almost total saccage of the place!
Don’t give them any more ideas!
So, ake reminds us, they have littered the Catholic cathedral in Killarney with flat plasma screen televisions? How disgusting!The Vandals are no longer at the gates – as they were in the last days of St Augustine of Hippo (d. AD 430) in North Africa – they are in the next aisle – WATCHING TV!
IS THERE ANYTHING MORE ABSOLUTELY ASININE THAN THAT???
Do these tellies pass for “living icons”? Are they showing reruns of “Father Ted,” “Ballykissangel,” or “Bless Me, Father!” between Masses? Why not simply put on “Ben Hur” and “The Ten Commandments” for Lent and Holy Week? There is some function whereby the film simply plays and replays continually.
Perhaps they should consider playing Morris West’s “The Agony and the Ecstasy” to remind them of the energy and creativity that go into the production of a truly great house of worship. With this lot, though, only an M-G-M all-singing, all-dancing, Busby Berkley superextravaganza would penetrate their thick skulls. Quick! Someone from this thread should anticipate the upcoming biography of AWN Pugin (God’s Architect, August 2007) by writing just such a screenplay – something peppy along the lines of “The Jolson Story” – — why not “The Pugin Story?” Then follow it up with a sequel about his son, Edward Pugin: “Pugin Sings Again!”
If popular interest demands a theatrical version of the film, it could be staged in St Mary’s, Dublin – now a pub. Nothing like dinner-theatre in a church to inspire true piety.
I get first dibs on writing the musical stage play for Pugin’s Treatise on Rood Screens. I leave Prax to provide the score for Pointed or Christian Architecture. Dublin’s Abbey Theatre – look out!!
Is anyone interested in playing Sir Ninian Comper?
@Praxiteles wrote:
The Church of St. Lachteen, Stuake, Donoughmore, Co. Cork
Here we have two views of St. Lachteen’s church which replaced an 1830s church on the same site in the late 1990s. The architect on this exdedition was John Lynch, of McCarthy and Lynch, now RKD (Cork).
Clearly, the exterior exhibits an imaginative apotheosis of the suburban bungalow.
The interior, on the other hand, shows all the weaker and none of the better traces of the Schwarz abberation and the German post-war Notkirche phenomenon – except of course nobody bombed old St. Lachteen’s into requiring a temporary shelter with low walls until something better could be done with it.
The RKD site also mentions something about that firm’s paying particular attention to interiors, their decoration, art works and the psychology of colour. I wonder if that might not be the source for the awful wall-hanging behind the altar which, like Killavullen, has displaced the Cross?
Of the modern churches built in the diocese of Cloyne since 1960, this probably manages to be the very, very, very worst! Where is Lachteen when you need him?
P.S His shrine is in the National Museum and was in the hereditary custody of the Healys until something went wrong in the early 19th century.
YUKKO!! What a wretched interior for a church. How depressing. As Voltaire once said, “Ecrasez l’infame!” Please do.
Why doesn’t the Cloyne HACK spend its energies on that thing? “Francis, rebuild my church!”
@Praxiteles wrote:
Church of the Immaculate Conception, Kanturk, Co. Cork
Here we have a picture taken some years ago of the east window in Kanturk church. Its interest for us today is th figure of the Cross in the lower centre. This is the cross on the pinnacle of the reredos of the High Altar. Evidently, the height of the reredos when this picture was taken was such that the cross reached as far as the lower stages of the east window.
During the works that took place recently in Kanturk, it would appear that some interference was made with the reredos of the High Altar, the cross of which no longer seems to reach as far as the glazing of the window. It is also noticeable that the Reredos, into which the antependium of the altar mensa has been submerged, now stands on the liturgically maladroit arrangement of a predella raised on TWO steps. It is also noticeable that two hand rails have been affixed to the east wall behind the reredos. These, however, terminate several inches beyond the reredos itself and are visible from the sanctuary gate – something not quite aestethical.
If the Church of the Immaculate Conception in Kanturk is supposed to be a protected structure, how can all of this work have gone on without planning permission?
Far too much freewheeling in Kanturk, obviously. Quis custodit custodes?
@Praxiteles wrote:
Re RKD
The following extraordinary statement appears on their page “Previous work”:
“The practice never remains static and a key part of our philosophy is to maintain this continuous evolution“
While that sounds very Theilardian, you will forgive me for saying so, but does not this philosophical expedition confound/confuse/conflate two entirely different concepts: motion and progress/evolution?
It seems to me that motion [or non stasis] does not necessairly lead to progress. Can it not also lead to decline/degradation? Or is RKD operating on some sort of principle of Marxist determinism? If so, then they really would want to shake a leg and move on a bit!!
Are we expected to believe that Killavullen represents the inexorable march of “Progress” ?
This IS all very Bolshey!
An Hegelian view of history. Distinctly Marxist determinism at work. All quite dubious … VERY dubious.
This philosophy is altogether unsound.
@PVC King wrote:
I think that the hierarchy should show leadership at a very high level to intervene in protecting the long term future of this most important liturgical asset. The faith has enough threats without compromising some of its most inspiring settings.
A poll would display the feelings felt by the architectural community to this very short sighted strategy being foisted on the people of Cobh. Opinion in the Donkey was 100% against the changes I wonder what reaction would be here?
PVC has identified the weak link in the chain: LEADERSHIP in the HIERARCHY. The vacuum in this department is at the heart of the whole issue re the preservation of church buildings in Ireland. It behooves us therefore to do a little honest inventory, just to know on which door one might knock with a reasonable expectation of gaining a hearing “at a very high level”:
Which bishops have opened any churches recently? What did these look like? Any award-winning examples?
Which bishops have recorded vast increases in church attendance for their dioceses over the last five to ten years?
Which bishops have published theological, exegetical, apologetic, or ascetical books that have won international acclaim? [Personal memoirs, autobiographical reminiscences, or episcopal musings accompanied by glossy photos do not count.]
Which bishops are known to be cultivating schools of theological thought or fostering the ferment of theological research?
Which bishops have distinguished themselves by calling attention to the Church’s teachings in the social order (just wages, protection of the pre-born, integrity of Christian marriage and family life, discrimination, just war theory, etc.)?
Which bishops have reported substantial growth in their local churches over the last decade?
Which bishops are renowned as the nation’s conscience? the nation’s top preacher? the Church’s voice in the media? Which bishops have the highest rate of Mass attendance on Sundays? Percentage of practising to non-practising members among the flock?
Which bishops are known as the defenders of the poor and marginalised?
Which bishops have inspired a renewal in the sacred liturgy? Or identified an architectural style for the new century (not to mention the millennium)?
Which bishops are founding schools of fine arts? colleges of the liberal arts? universities? choir schools? pontifical institutes of higher learning?
Which bishops are establishing techinical schools for future Catholic workers?
Which bishops are inaugurating media centres for the promotion of the Gospel and teaching young Catholics how to leaven the media?
Which bishops are influencing the performing arts?
Which bishop draws young people by the thousands to renew their faith and follow the Gospel by means of a lifestyle independent of the secular hedonism dominant in most sectors of society today?
Which bishops have taken the opportunity to expound the most recent papal teachings or implement the most recent canonical and liturgical legislation? Which bishops are most closely identified with the papal magisterium today?
Your answer to these questions will provide you with a clue to implementing the suggestion raised above. When the ecclesiastical hierarchy begins to pay attention to the governance of the Church (their first duty, it is presumed), then we may hope to see the preservation of old churches and to foresee the building of new churches to accommodate the growing number of Catholics who ought to be attending Mass on Sundays.
In the meantime, it may reasonaly be asked: who is taking care of those rotting doors in Cobh cathedral? Don’t knock too hard on those doors – or you may punch through the fabric. Don’t knock too hard on the doors of St Mary’s Buttevant, either, or your hand may come through on the other side.
Great idea, Prax! Let the HACK know that the time has come for a clean sweep. It is long past time for these old hackers to give way to the new blood, like Jim Kidney for example and others like him, who have the vitality, energy, and intelligence to respond to the obvious needs of such a noble and exquisitely beautiful edifice as St Colman’s Cathedral, Cloyne. These young people recognise the value of a great church like St Colman’s, and they have sufficient awareness of the religious and cultural significance of this building for Ireland and for Catholicism to want to do something substantial to preserve it for posterity. The future lies with them, the real heroes of tomorrow, not with the (day)dreamers and woolgatherers on the HACK.
Instead of grasping for power and then stagnating once it is in hand, the HACK, the hackers, and the hacklings ought to recognise that leadership involves nurturing subsequent generations in such a way as to prepare them for assuming high responsibility in their turn. The likes of Jim Kidney and his generation of future leaders are getting a distatefeul lesson from their elders in how NOT to manage affairs. We call it the via negativa: what NOT to do when the torch is passed to you.
By the way, those photos of St Mary’s Dungarvin, Co. Waterford, are absolutely appalling. How such a travesty could have been perpetrated escapes comprehension. That it should be tolerated at all any further defies all common sense.
@Praxiteles wrote:
The idea strikes me that we could run an opinion poll and let the the viewers, all 200,000 of them, decide the issue and it might cause the HACK to muster up the courage to go.
The question that could be put is a simple one:
Do you think that the Cloyne HACK should resign in the wake of their recommendation to wreck the interior of St. Colman’s Cathedral, Cobh, Co. Cork?
Answers should also be kept simple: Yes or NO.
YES!
@Praxiteles wrote:
Praxiteles has just finished rereading Alice in Wonderland as a prelude to reading Denis O’Callaghan’s effort to outdo Alice Taylor on the subject of life in Newmarket and environs (Alice, I may say has a ring of authenticity about her books sadly absent in the O’Callaghan script which has more the air of trying to be one of the lads at the local herrier club). What attracts Praxiteles to Putting Hand to the Plough is O’C’s account of the debacle surrounding the attempted wreckage of Cobh Cathedral. Without the slightest hint of shame, O’C admits that he was responsible for dragging the great Professor O’Neill into the fray in Cobh and tells us that he chose the Dublin guru to hack out the interior in whct O’C describes as a modest “conservative” re-ordering.
O’C telles us: “St. Colman’s Cthedral in Cobh is universally admired for its superb site and majectic beauty….It is for us a sacred trust to preserve and enhance that heritage as a monument to the living faith of the Irish then and now” . these, Praxiteles would contend, are, like most of the meanderings in the book, hollow words. If O’C, or indeed any of the Cobh clergy were in the slightest bit interested in Cobh Cathedral thy might spend a few bob on a can of paint for the doors that are quite literally rotting off their hinges.
O’C tells us the Steering Committee was e stablished to plan and direct the “thhe restoration and REORDERING” of Cobh Cathedral. This comes as a tardy admission that they had intent to wreck in mind from the outset though this wa vehemently denied lest it cause the flow of cash coming in to dry up. O’C, in a lucid moment, conjectures that the Steering Committee had been “aware that the Cathedral had been universally acclaimed as a gem of Gothic church architecture”. He supposed that they realized that “whatever was done would be subject to public scruitny right across Ireland and beyond”. All those persons on the Steering Committee cannot have been too worried about public scrutiny given that they do not care a damn that the place is literally falling to bits and has all the signs of a pigstey for lack of basic maintenance. The former head of the Steering Committee, Tom Cavanagh (aka Mr Titd Towns) was not that concerned to keep the place any way tidy and we certainly cannot hope for anything better from his successor to improve matters. Denis Murphy, a milkman from Mallow, has no interest in tidy towns as far as can be made out from any published material about him and even less in having a tidy Cathedral in Cobh.
Prax, what a waste of precious time reading that drivel. Let Denis O’Callaghan or Demos O’Callaghan or whatever-his-name-is keep his hand to the plough and off the interior of St Colman’s Cathedral Cobh.
What did he hope to accomplish by publishing this vain piece of puffery and fumery?
When it drifts across the ocean, Rhabanus intends not to buy it. Or will it be airborne like the avian flu?
@Gianlorenzo wrote:
Here is the full text of Jim Kidney’s letter to the Great Island News regarding the current deplorable state of Cobh Cathedral.
EXCELLENT LETTER! Here! Here! Mr Jim Kidney ought to be on whatever cathedral or diocesan committee that supervises the fabric of St Colman’s Cathedral.
Thanks, Gianlorenzo! Great work! I certainly look forward to reading more from Mr Kidney.
@samuel j wrote:
What is it a Sauna or have Artic Spas & Tubs got a showroom in there…
“protected building and on the list of protected structures drawn up by the Cork County Council” – have some recent experience of so called LIST and damage to a structure…. from my experience of getting any action…I think it is no more than a list…. as no one wants to know…you are bounced from pillar to post… I fear it is no more than a list……
Don’t tell me they have decided to revert to the ancient practice of baptising in the nude!?
Is this merely the cabana, or the actual baptistery which facilitates nuditas?What would St Cyril of Jerusalem say about this mess?
Pius XII would surely have pointed an accusing finger at this ridiculous archaising tendency.
To paraphrase Oscar Wilde:
Canon Chasuble: Both the precept and the practice of the early church was disinctly in favour of nudity at baptism.
Miss Prism: Clearly that is why the early church is no longer with us!Or is the shrine to the Elephant in the living room?
@Praxiteles wrote:
Yeah, I think he is but in Kanturk he is regarded more as the local liturgical al-Wahaabi!!
However, the real question is why can he do such an extensive make over of Kanturk church without planning permission and everyone else has to go through the whole expensive process to make a minor alteration to the front of the house? Are the al-Wahaabi above the law?
Did Prax not know that “some al-Wahaabis are more equal than others”?
Sacred cows make great cheeseburgers! But they need grilling!
@Praxiteles wrote:
A very sharp comment Chris and dead spot on!!
Here are a couple of more to show the thing right side up -the lfeties woz obviously at it here!!
Is is not that just a stunning piece of Gothick!! A pity the ESB box has not a pointed arch – it would lend street cred to it.
Can’t the word Catch be rendered in Latin? Then we could read Accipite or Capite or even Carpe. If the PP would scrawl the word diem after it, he would form a well-known motto: carpe diem!
I say that the FOSCC ought to follow that motto: Carpe diem!
