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cant see it happening, they cant get buses to run properly let alone this thing.
To be fair, Cork City COuncil have a crowd called MV Consultancy doing a transport study for Cork but the cynic in me asks is it just another plan along with CASP, South West Regional Development Plan, NDP, Transport 21, Docklands plans.
It is very important to have plans but ACTION is more important.
aha, we’re some way in agreement, put it this way, in the space of a couple of posts i reckon we have talked more about the transport and buses policy in cork than the department of transport has in a long time.
You’re right in that it would have to be looked at but its just a personal opinion that the current station is inefficient for the intercity express buses. I agree with you that there should be some sort of public space there alright, it would be nice that side of the city if people were waiting on the small buses. Expand the building on the site, put in some sort of public space/park, then rent out some of the space so the state earns money from its site, increase the height (the precedent is now set with an 8 storey office block going up right next to the station), dump the intercity buses out of there where possible
The key to the small little buses zipping around the place is to first get more cars out of the city and b) the absolute key. Dont let the state run it ( why? ask CIE and Bus Eireann why they are having to be rationalised and all their fares put up).
@venividi wrote:
I’m sorry, but you probably drive yourself, don’t use buses? Can you give an example what could be so beneficial for the city in the bus station site?
What you propose is creating trouble for many people for a reason which remains unknown. Plenty of people actually go to work from bus station, what you propose is to make them dependant of two unreliable buses in one direction instead of one.Also, “fleet of shuttle buses” sounds great, but do you know how bad the actual “fleet of buses” in Cork works?
First of all, relax.
Now, to answer. Yes I do drive simply because I cant rely on the bus a) to actually turn up and b) turn up on time. The transport in Cork and Ireland in general compared to Europe and the rest of the planet is utterly utterly dismal.
Prior to a recession, i would have thought that site was a pivotal link from merchants quay to parnell place and could have had either retail/office paying rent to CIE, i.e. the state earning money off of one of their sites from rental income, while having a smaller bus hub there as well. Irish Rail need to be CPO’d for negligence and at the height of the boolm, could have had the Horgans Quay site developed, with the intercity buses going from there. The way they pull out on the main road at the current station is a bit mad and the fact that the direction of the road on one side by the former animals home goes away from the direction they want to go and the other leads onto merchants quay, the middle of the city i.e. traffic, means it isnt efficient. I have seen many other cities with bus stations in/near city centres but they are hubs for rail as well and have been designed efficiently to get transport in and out as quickly as possible.
I take your point that people arriving there to walk into work would probably find that easier than getting two buses and it might also be a pain to get a bus to one place and then hop on another smaller one to get into the city centre, but as i said, leave a smaller bus hub there, do a review to see if routes can be made more efficient. i’m open to debate. lets just improve what we have now.
I dont understand your last point, but what i mean is, given that cars are being squeezed out of the middle of the city (quite rightly to make it better to walk around), those little imp buses that were in dublin might be handy to be allowed zip around and drop people off to bus station, rail, airport, park and rides at the edge of the city, docklands, maybe some hotels (another money earner for the city – get the hotels to pay) and some of them then in the summer for the major tourist traps.
There is a transport study being done at the moment. I cant be too far off anyway, the hub at Horgans quay is being proposed for the Docklands.
@who_me wrote:
I’m not really sure what’s the benefit of moving the bus station, I’d have thought it’s far better to have the bus hub close to the city centre; rather than having people walking/taking the bus to the train station only to get on another bus there.
i see your point but i suppose i am referring to having the express coaches pulling out on to the roads where its currently located. Thats an excellent site that could be doing more for the city than a bus station. A fleet of little shuttle buses all around the city that would take you to places like train/bus, airport etc could be done then.
there are some appalling buildings in cork but there are some nice ones too. The widening of Pana and the Grand Parade is really nice i think and the sooner the cars are hunted out of the middle the better but theres no where for them to go at the moment. I think the bus station should be moved out of there and should be a little hub from the railway station where the buses should be based. I dont know why the Elysian balconies face the south link road instead of east/west but there you go. The golden opportunity is the docklands but lets face it, without private investment nothing will happen. Maybe planners should lean more on developers in terms of what building designs should be but its all subjective opinion. I mean, the city architects supposedly favourite buildings are the yellow brick vileness out in Victoria cross. What a wasted opportunity for a beautiful landmark area.
Neither is there anything straightforward about the planning process when a planning official can be completely over ruled by a senior planning official and Bord pleanala can ignore their own inspectors and rule in a completely opposite manner.
Some of the newer stuff is nice but its private individuals that own the buildings and its hard for city officials to be able to put the pressure on them in terms of design.
wholeheartedly agree – maybe this time someone will actually monitor costs from spiralling into 100 odd million of over runs that no one was held responsible for.
I see Bus Eireann are running nitelinks on weekends over xmas. If its that easy, why hasnt it been done for the last 10 years?
no, i was looking at the planning on city council website recently and they were due to send in Further Info but havent. The lack of govt commitment on the docklands bridge is very poor. Also makes you wonder, with CIE in trouble, what will they do with the years- late-in-being-developed Horgans Quay? might be a positive in that CIE have to sell off the site and as per usual, private sector can do it properly.
true, possibly they could have got this going some time ago but hey, they’re doing something.vaguely.kind of.
@who_me wrote:
It’s pretty simple, if the council want people not to use cars,
Would this be the same council that reputedly sold Navigation House to Owen O’ Callaghan with the proviso that he provide a multi storey car park so the city hall workers and councillors can park for free?
@who_me wrote:
:p On this point, I beg to differ.
Now, to collect a package, anyone living in the city centre has to travel out to Togher industrial estate to collect a package. If you’re trying to be sensible by not owning a car, it means a 20 euro taxi ride out there and back to collect a package that might be worth a fraction of that.
are you joking? you would rather a drab green 1 storey building in a prime site in the centre of the city for the convenience of collecting packages? give me a break. The elysian isnt the most architecturally stunning building in the world but it beats having An Post there hands down. There was absolutely nothing stopping An Post taking a retail unit in the Elysian there so people could still collect their packages so you will have to give out about An Post on that one
yeah, come on, get your facts right. I think the Elysian is great for Cork, its a massive punt taken by Michael O’ Flynn, sets a whole new market. The insides are absolutely stunning, even if I will never afford it (and if I had that money, I would have the villa in Italy or France first I think). Silly prices but a great idea, certainly beats having a giant sorting office there.
As for Docklands, all it would have taken was €60m for that bridge and a kick up the rear to CIE to get the Masterplan for Horgans Quay. Imagine, if someone had managed Cork Airports building properly, there would have been €60m for that bridge. What a waste.
but if the planning process was in any way proper, theres no reason why developers cant be made to build the District Centres and Neighbourhood centres and infrastructure before or at the same time as they do their residential, office development etc. The planning process though doesnt appear to be used in such a manner.
The alternative though is to rely on the system and local/central government to do it which means it will never happen. Look at CIE putting 2 different planning applications through for Horgans Quay despite being told from the outset that they would need a Masterplan for Kent station. They still persisted, got refused, appealed to Bord Pleanala and got refused, all the time knowing they were wasting time and unknown amounts of tax payers money, whereeas if they had done the plan, they could have been kicking off the docklands as we speak.
I live in carrigaline and a transport study for the town was completed recently. Between that and the traffic studies completed by Port of Cork, they acknowledged the traffic and transport network for Carrigaline was poor and over capacity. At the same time councillors have apparently voted to rezone more land for houses! when i challenged them on it, they said they were afraid the developer would not build the recreation / amenitys he promised. Talk about the tail wagging the dog. Had it not ocurred to them to form a contract so the builder has to develop the recreation / amenity first and then be allowed build his houses? All this of course while the councillors then acknowledged there was no money to implement the transport study. Unbelieveable!
Its a case of the lesser of 2 evils, have nothing built by the local bureaucracy or try and put some semblance of control on whats built by developers. Current system fits between the 2 i think.
well we need developers to actually build the things because as you can see, if we waited on the government, it would never get built. They are taking the risk so are entitled to profits. The most frustrating part is that If govt had managed the airport project properly, they would have had the money for the bridge which would kickstart the whole docklands. I do some project management work and if I thought there was like minded people out there, I would work some hours for free to get Docklands going as its so slow in moving.
I agree with you to the extent that we have to balance what the taxpayers contribute to what they will get back but I think most people would agree a new bridge would hugely improve the infrastructure of cork and keep traffic moving, given that the rest of the transport in cork is rubbish
the residents out by the silver key, who objected to the Eircom site being developed, made a good point in that a decision can wait until plans are revealed for O’ Callaghan Properties development on the Cork Con grounds. Seems logical to me. One of the objectors mentioned that O’ Callaghans already had a plan prepared for the Cork Con site which again makes sense but the question remains will the city authorities row back on their plans to rezone a sportsground for residential. Who knows until the plan is seen. Dont expect Fianna Fail to object though.
remains to be seen whats in the Finance Bill i suppose but the Seveso should have been done ages ago (Health & safety will be delighted, they wont have to keep sending pointless letters every time there is an application within a seveso zone) and if there is nothing for the rest of the docklands in the bill, well, thats just an out and out disgrace. Its bad enough we got landed with the airport debt and they still havent appointed a chairman to the airport authority. Remember, local elections next year. Dont hide from the councillor at the door, ask him what are they doing about the docklands. (Answer: Nothing, as they have no power).
Cork City Council last night voted in favour of rezoning a sports ground at Farranlea Rd in Wilton for a 100 bed facility for the HSE. Councillor Dave McCarthy questioned the move when he said Our Ladys Hospital is lying idle. Councillors have said its not setting a precedent though. (Presume they are hinting at O’ Callaghans plans to get Cork Con rezoned).
obviously i bought one of each – it was when i heard that there was good storage space in the basement as well if you wanted it for your apartment, but the storage would also cost 10,000, i was a bit miffed
they are finished really really well, surround sound speakers wired in the ceiling, mood lighting and all that stuff
The kitchen designed by Porsche is unbelievable, in both looks and cost (€149k – for a kitchen!)
the 545k ones are really fab to be fair
i was just in the elysian for a look, the 1 beds are a bit cramped but the others are fabulous – prob still a little pricey but the show apartments are seriously good especially the dual aspect for 545k and ones in the tower for 1.35m – if you have that kind of money why not
i agree with you, its just that given current government fear of spending (although they still seem to be going ahead with a 3.7 billion metro in Dublin0, we will be doing well to get the docklands up and running at all – arent the government trying to get funds from the EU and be allowed break the restrictions on borrowing rule?
No sign yet of a decision on the bridge to go from over by Pairc Ui Chaoimh to the skew bridge, was due months ago
I take your point about some short term career break or something but if you are a minister / TD for years and your teaching job is still kept open, i think thats a bit much, but then where do you draw the line?
@MrX wrote:
The fact that someone has to risk their career / pause it to run a campaign which may or may not be successful and then their career could only last 5 years does mean that they are taking a huge risk. If you’ve a mortgage and kids, it’s often an unacceptably high risk.
They choose to make the attempt though
@MrX wrote:
If it were such an attractive career there’d be a lot more people putting themselves forward for election. Breaking into politics usually means slogging it out as a councillor too, which to be fair, isn’t exactly a very well paid job and often requires almost as much work as a TD puts in (certainly a back bencher).
Local council rules allow co opting as far as I know, i.e. if someone gets elected as TD or resigns, someone in the council can pick their brother or friend to be a councillor, thats hardly democratic and councillors have little or no power, it seems to me all they do is write strong letters to government departments and if you have a problem, they refer to you a department, theres no accountability at all
Look at the Lord Mayors salary of 100k or more, that the parties all have made a pact to swop the position between them so someone will get the dosh, thats hardly democracy and i do appreciate that councillors and TD’s have to listen to all and sundry giving out to them but when councillors have take home pay of something like €86k (I think thats the usual annual figure from PJ Sheehan) then theres a reason why people are queueing up to get in
Councillors have very little power, but one of the ones they have, rezoning, is terrifying. Look at the new town proposed and voted for by councillors down by Innishannon against all the advice of the planners and county managers etc
I think bureacracy has an awful lot to answer for in this country
