Praxiteles
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- July 25, 2006 at 1:57 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #768291
Praxiteles
ParticipantIcannot locate a copy in a public library in Ireland. Anyone hvae any ideas?
July 22, 2006 at 10:12 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #768290Praxiteles
ParticipantThis link brings you to the article on “Cathedrals” in the Dictionnaire Raisonne de l’Architecture Francaise
July 22, 2006 at 10:09 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #768289Praxiteles
ParticipantThe following is a link to the online index of E.E. Viollet-le-Duc’s important publication Dictionnaire Raisonne de l’Architecture Francaise of 1856. Along with Didron’s Annales Archeologiques, this is an important source for the irish neo gothic revival.
July 20, 2006 at 4:29 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #768287Praxiteles
ParticipantJuly 19, 2006 at 10:15 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #768286Praxiteles
ParticipantThe following link offers a (peculiar) potted history of Vezelay:
http://www.paradoxplace.com/Photo%20Pages/France/Vezelay/Vezelay.htm
July 19, 2006 at 9:47 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #768285Praxiteles
ParticipantBelow is an interesting link concerning the bells at Vezelay.
July 18, 2006 at 3:11 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #768284Praxiteles
ParticipantRe E.E. Viollet le Duc, I am nailing up the following concerning his restoration of the Basilica at Vezelay in Burgundy:
July 17, 2006 at 2:21 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #768282Praxiteles
ParticipantStephen Schloeder’s book deals with the question of altar rails rather interestingly and cites a number of “reasons” for their removal that could have been cogged from the wonderful piece of “theological” free composition prepared for the HACK by Fr Danny Murphy. It is amazing how great minds think alike – imagine, in rural backwater Cloyne, the same reasons are brought out to rid us of ecclesiastical barriers as in cosmopolitan Milwaukee. Strange that!
July 15, 2006 at 5:45 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #768281Praxiteles
ParticipantPraxiteles does not usually advertise but Stephen Schloeder’s excellent book Architecture in Communion is an important work especially in diagnosing the problems facing post-modernist Catholic Church architecture and could usefully be read by some of those posting on this thread. While Praxiteles does not agree with everything Schloeder has to say, it is clear that Schloeder is aware that there is a theologicl, archictectural and iconographic canon out of which Catholic architecture should procede. This has been one of the points that Praxiteles has been trying to make on this thread. If for no other reason, Schloeder’s book is interesting for its insightful comments on Austin Flannery’s inadequate commentary on the concent of Populus Dei as expounded by the Second Vatican Council in Lumen Gentium. Schloeder is quite correct in saying that all the demotic nonsense about liturgy derives from a misconstruing of this fundamental idea – the last example of which was to be seen in Fr. Danny Murphy’s appaling piece of rubbish presented to the Cloyne HACK and UNANIMOUSLY adopted by that over educated body in its effotrs to wreck Cobh Cathedral.
Architecture in Communion: Implementing the Second Vatican Council Through Liturgy and Architecture (Paperback)
by Steven J. Schloeder “I have undertaken this work because I find many-or rather most-recent Catholic churches to be banal, uninspiring, and frequently even liturgically bizarre [fig. I.1]…” (more)
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Product DetailsPaperback: 267 pages
Publisher: Ignatius Press (April 1998)
Language: English
ISBN: 0898706319
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Reviewer: FrKurt Messick “FrKurt Messick” (Bloomington, IN USA) – See all my reviewsSteven Schloeder has written a book in which he attempts to capture what he describes as the ‘true spirit of the Second Vatican Council’ in architectural design for churches. Schloeder identifies difficulties in theology and liturgy that have, in his opinion, translated also in problem architecturally. With regard to modernism, he states, ‘Many prominent Catholic thinkrs have not discerningly separated the wheat from the chaff and have accepted certain secondary issues as primary ones.’ Among these are issues of the Eucharist being a sacrificial meal vs. a communal one, or the difference between the ministerial priesthood and the common priesthood of all being downplayed – these and others are issues that he discusses briefly in theological and historical terms, but quickly develops the way in which architecture shapes and is shaped by such ideas.
Schloeder’s vision for the book is set out in the introduction: ‘Our goal is to enliven the parish community – which is the true Church built of living stones in Christ – with a material church building designed to serve and further the primary vocation to become a community of love, which must mean a people of sacrifice and redemption.’ This is a constant theme throughout the entire text, always present in the spirit of the photographs, drawings, and essays.
Even the structure of the book speaks of an underlying theological bent – three clusters of three chapters. The first three chapters explore issues of history, sociology, theology and liturgy with regard to the modern Catholic church building. The nature of the church is a primary consideration when considering what kind of design and structure its physical enclosure and manifestation should bear.
The second cluster of three chapters look at particular architectural aspects. One chapter examines the needs of the santuary itself, another chapter more broadly at other services and sacramental needs, and the final chapter the wider considerations of the church family and its place in the community. In this later aspect, the church building can grow from being the domus ecclesiae (house church, or home of the church) to being a civitas dei (a city of God).
The final three chapters look at artistic and aesthetic elements, particularly the icon; Schloeder strives to regain the iconographic aspect of the church in the community. The building itself can be a symbol and a work of art, and most certainly should be a sacramental space.
Schloeder is honest about this book not being an answer book – to many of the issues he explores, he has no concrete answers to offer, but rather serves to highlight particular issues for consideration. Indeed, in the creativity of modern architecture, there are often multiple solutions to the same problems.
This book has hundreds of photographs, examples of architecture modern, medieval and ancient, works of art, and outside symbols and examples. It is rather fun, for example, to see a picture of the British House of Commons chamber as an example of similar types of church architecture, then to know that the British HoC is modeled on the older structure in which the Members met in the choir stalls of a chapel.
The writing is crisp and flowing, and fits very well its topic and the surrounding images. This is a good book for all those interested in architecture, church design, liturgy, and the intersection of theology with material arts.
REVIEW BY STAINED GLASS ARTIST OF 90-YEAR OLD FAMILY FIRM, May 22, 1999
Reviewer: A reader
ARCHITECTURE IN COMMUNION gave an excellent insight into the challenges and crises that Catholic church art has faced since the Second Vatican Council. Mr. Schloeder really understands the anguish that many traditional church artisans faced following the aftermath of the Council–when confusion seemed to leave traditional Catholic church arts at a crossroads.An excellent source book for Catholic church design, November 4, 1998
Reviewer: A reader
“Architecture in Communion” is a detailed, yet highly approachable, weaving of theology, liturgy, architectural history, and iconography. Schloeder’s vision for a restoration of beauty and meaning in Catholic church design is both original and solidly rooted in the traditions of the faith.
His central premise is that Catholic church architecture is essentially “sacramental”, that is to say, the material building is meant to be an icon or an image of the spiritual reality of the Church. Drawing upon sources from Scripture, the Church Fathers, architectural history, conciliar documents, canon law, and the Catechism, Schloeder shows us the symbolical language that has traditionally underpinned Catholic church design, and examines each part of the church (nave, sanctuary, altar, ambo, baptistery, etc.) with respect to its function, traditional form, symbolic meaning, and canonical status.The book is very nicely illustrated with over 300 photos and illustrations.
July 14, 2006 at 4:52 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #768280Praxiteles
ParticipantLet us rivet on a few more images of St Sernin in Toulouse:
July 14, 2006 at 4:03 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #768279Praxiteles
ParticipantForging ahead with our study of E. Viollet le Duc, here is a link to the Basilica os St Sernin in Toulouse giving an idea of how Viollet le Duc’s restoration looks:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilique_Saint-Sernin
For Irish readers, it has an interesting connection. The building that originally housed the Irish College in Toulouse stands opposite St. Sernin which gave three burial places to the College: one in the Cimtiere des Nobles immediately outside of the Chapel du Saint Esprit, and two others in the floor of the church itself.
July 12, 2006 at 3:17 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #768277Praxiteles
ParticipantThe following link to the Cathedral of the Assumption in Clermont goves an idea of Viollet le Duc’s work there:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cath%C3%A9drale_Notre-Dame-de-l%27Assomption_de_Clermont-Ferrand
July 11, 2006 at 10:14 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #768276Praxiteles
ParticipantEugene Emmanuele viollet le Duc 1814-1879
Our consideration of Jean Baptiste Lassus must of necessity lead us to Eugene Emmanuele Viollet le Duc (1814-1879). I am posting a short biography:
Born to a well connected Parisian family living in an apartment in the Tuileries, Viollet-le-Duc first studied Renaissance architecture in Italy before returning to France and a lifelong love of Gothic engineering and decoration. His appointment in the 1840s to head the Office of Historic Monuments was the perfect combination of the right man for the right job. What the effects of time had not already degraded, the French revolution nearly destroyed fifty years earlier as the buildings of church and state had become targets of mob violence leaving the great Gothic structures shattered wrecks.
Viollet restored Notre Dame, Hotel de Cluny and other Medieval icons in Paris as well as the cathedrals of Amiens and Saint-Denis, the cities of Avignon and Carcasonne, and numerous city halls and chateaux.
He understood that Gothic architecture derived its beauty from the artful expression of its structure. That the engineering of a building was as beautiful a visual exercise as its decoration . When Louis Sullivan later insisted that “form ever follows function,” he may have been recalling the principles of Viollet-le-Duc.
As he mastered the vocabulary of the Gothic, he utilized new materials of the industrial age in a manner that correlated to Medieval construction. While not authentic to the period, his techniques updated the ethos of Gothic structural expression. Later historians vilified Viollet’s use of machine age building materials and artful rearrangements as a revisionism of historical reality. Today he has become a verb in modern French, as “to Viollet-le-Duc” means to heavily restore an ancient structure.
His political influence during the Second Empire of Napolean III enabled his architectural firm to assume a major role in the reconstruction of Paris. And his family’s friendship with the Empress Eugenie meant that his competition design for the new Opera house nearly won over that of Charles Garnier. While reconstructing the ancient castle of Pierrefonds into a summer retreat for the Emperor, Viollet saw the Second Empire collapse and his firm relegated to restoring provincial city halls. He devoted much of his time to teaching and writing, producing encyclopedias of French architecture and lectures on modern construction that were later found in the libraries of the great architects of the modern movement.
He was awarded a medal by an international jury for his Lausanne Cathedral restoration designs at the 1872 Vienna World Exposition. His retirement to Switzerland developed into a careful study of the Alps, what Viollet-le-Duc considered the perfect structural expression of stone.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eug%C3%A8ne_Viollet-le-Duc
click on image
to enlargeDesign for Mural
Pierrefonds Castle
watercoler on paper
c. 1860
11 x 14 inchesLink to Paris: Building Splendor
Link to Louis Villeminot Biography pageJuly 11, 2006 at 1:51 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #768275Praxiteles
Participant@Chuck E R Law wrote:
I had the impression that The Three Masons (Praxiteles, Sangallo and Gianlorenzo) had modelled themselves on The Three Musketeers at the Siege of La Rochelle, i.e. relying on extravagant (s)wordplay to escape from impossible situations.
Not a bad pun at all, we are improving! But, please do not venture into 17th. century French history. I have the feeling you do have a handle on it and would find it difficult to work out the political combinations of the regency of Queen Mary and the successive ministry of the great Cardinal.
What about the “piece” bit?
Praxiteles
ParticipantI am quite amazed that CERL is so intimately conversant with the planning law of the Free State. Perhaps, CERL refers to another day for someone other than those who normally refer to it.
Your description of the planning consultation that took place in Kenmare, I have to say that some aspects of it are remarkably similar to the “consultations” that took place about the plans to wreck the interior of Cobh Cathedral, including a rather catty bit about copying plans and drawings. Do you know the name of the planning consultant who is organising the running for the Kenmare scheme?
You will probably have to hire a very competent firm of solicitors to deal with this one effectively. Arthur Cox and Company of Earlsford Terrace, Dublin are among the best in the country and well worth the money. They will also be in a position to advise on the best planning consultants etc.
July 10, 2006 at 8:17 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #768272Praxiteles
Participant@Chuck E R Law wrote:
I sometimes wonder whether Praxiteles, who claims to be a sculptor, has all his/her marbles. The photographs presented by Armand, which brought Praxiteles to an architectural orgasm, were to any rational person une piece de merde. The only thing these photos show is that the poor demented La Rochellais was on his ear. He seemed to be incapable of holding the camera in the vertical position presumably because of a lifelong addiction to absinthe.
It says a lot that Chuck should describe Praxiteles as A sculptor!
As for “rational person”: well the same rational person would probably feel a discrepency between the premise and conclusioon of that syllogism. Enough said.
Is “La Rochellais” a correct French description for an inhabitant of La Rochelle?
Praxiteles
Participant@publicrealm wrote:
Certainly the extract you quoted would imply this Bruges.
I can only hope that what the Inspector meant was that a slight eparture from the strict Georgian townhouse pattern is acceptable – i.e. that certain very limited expressions of ‘personal taste’ may be permissible (provided they are reversible).
Any general deference to personal taste would open up an appalling vista – might as well scrap the record of PS’s and be done with it.
(I hope the Minister for the Environment and destruction of Heritage hasn’t yet heard of Archeire (or the interweb) 🙂
Scrapping the list of PSs is exactly what would have ensued in the wake of the CObh Case had the personal preferences of the Trustees been acccpted by ABP.
July 10, 2006 at 4:04 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #768271Praxiteles
ParticipantWell our dear militant friend has been back on and does not seem to appreciate feeling the drunkness of things being varied. Armandd did a wonderful job and has provided pictures not otherwise available even on the net.
From what I reacll of my school French, “piece” means either “a coin” or “a roomt”. Chuck’s grammar is also as wobbly as his frog vocalary.
What ever you do do Chuck, do not start teaching French in Belfast or we will have a right mess.
July 9, 2006 at 9:14 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #768268Praxiteles
ParticipantArmandd
Thank you so much for those superb pictures of St. Nicholas. They were worth waiting for. I particularly liked the ones showing the massing of the east end; the magnificent Porta Coeli arch; the vaulting; and of the turret on the High Altar which is so reminiscent of JJ. McCarthy’s High Altar in St. Peter and Paul’s at Kilmallock, Co. Limerick.
Praxiteles
ParticipantIt must have been very embarrassing for poor bishop McGhee sitting thre at the the Oral Hearing in Midleton and having to listen to the evidence being produced that made it more than clear that there were discrepencies in what he had been telling various people:
– in making a solemn promise that he would come back to the people fo Cobh BEFORE submitting any plans for the Cathedral which has never been honoured.
– stating in a letter to the FOSCC in April 2004 that NO plans EXISTED for the Cathedral when in another letter to Rome in October 2003 he announced that plans had been FINALISED. As it turned out, the plans had been completed on 23 June 2003.
– trying to suggest that a public consultation had taken place on the mad-hatter scheme of Professor Cathal O’Neill when in fact the public were not shown the plans until AFTER they had been submitted and at a point when no suggestions could have been taken on board.
What are we to call all of this in ordianry terms: mendaciousness.
It is peraps just as well that he has made no further statements on the Cobh Cathedral debacle since the publication of the ABP ruling. Had he done so, could have been believed?
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