Praxiteles

Brian!

Here is the text of canon 451. Nothing here about DELEGATION:

Can. 451 Each conference of bishops is to prepare its own statutes which must be reviewed by the Apostolic See and which are to organize, among other things, the plenary meetings of the conference which are to be held and to provide for a permanent council of bishops, a general secretariat of the conference, and also other offices and commissions which, in the judgment of the conference, more effectively help it to achieve its purpose.

Concerning architectural modernism and church building, perhaps it might be helpful to examine some of the principles underlying the work of Joze Plecnik.

P.S. There is an interesting restoration project going on in Kentstown, Co. Meath. Reports would have us believe that the results should be interesting and should perhaps herald a more enlightened approach to church restoration. We await the outcome with interest. If anyone is passing, they might like to take and post a photograph.

This little article appeared on the Irish Times on 7 August 2006 concerning the destruction of Irish cathedrals and churches.

@brianq wrote:

Yis

Again yes and no. Yes in that I agree with everything you say about the advisory committee on art & architecture. It is advisory and all it can do is advise (the liturgical commission). No in that the Liturgical Commission is an episcopal commission – consisting of bishops. It has the full authority of the Irish Episcopal Conference to make directives regarding liturgy.

BQ

Which of the august bodies are we advising: the Irish Episcopal Commission for Liturgz which is made up of the following luminaries on the episcopal benceh, none of whom has anz professional qualification in anz of the liturgical sciences. Obviouslz, thez must be depending on soimething other than Wissenshaft to tell their good eggs from their gluggers:

Irish Episcopal Commission for Liturgy
Most Reverend John Magee, Bishop of Cloyne (chairperson), Most Reverend Fiachra Ó Ceallaigh, Auxiliary Bishop in Dublin, Most Reverend John McAreavey, Bishop of Dromore
Reverend Patrick Jones is secretary to the Commission.

Then we have another august bodz: The Irish Commission for Liturgy. This has a verz interesting line up.The only person on this committee worth listening to when it comes to a liturgical matter is the Reverend Patrick McGolderick, Professor emeritus of Sacred Liturgy, St. Patrick’s College, Maynooth.

Irish Commission for Liturgy
This is the primary consultative agency on liturgy. Its members are: Reverend Séan Collins, ofm., Dr Margaret Daly-Denton, Ms Jane Ferguson, Reverend Patrick Jones, Ms Julie Kavanagh, Reverend John Keating, ocarm, Reverend Hugh P. Kennedy, Sr. Bríd Liston, fcj Reverend Columba J. McCann, Reverend Patrick McGoldrick, Reverend Edward Magee, Reverend Dermot Meehan, Reverend Daniel Murphy, Reverend John Terry, Reverend Liam M. Tracey, osm, Reverend Thomas Whelan, cssp.

I am afraid, Brian, that zou are incorrect in sazing that the Episcopal Commission has the full authoritz of the Episcopal Commission to make DIRECTIVES on the liturgy. An Episcopal Conference can make precious little in the waz of DIRECTIVES about the liturgz. That is the business of the Holy See and of the Diocesan Bishop in his diocese. The Conference has no authority in this area. Even if it had, it could not delegate that authoritz to a sub commission.

@brianq wrote:

Yes in that it is canonical in as far as it quotes GIRM, the Rite of Dedication of an Altar, Eucharisticum Mysterium and so on.

BQ

Even making allowances for someone who does not have a training in Canon Law, szing the above with respect to The Place of Worship is nonsense. Any liturgical norm alreadz vested with the force of law quoted in that document gains nothing from it and is completelz unnecessary to their legal status.

Some further reading material for BQ.

Try this link to a recent little instructiuon called Redemptionis Sacramentum which should sort out clearly in your mind just how authority in the Ctholic Church concerning liturgy is organized. You will note that the emphasis is on Bishops rather than Bishops Conferences. Do not lose sight of that.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

The following few articles, that I have previouslly posted gives you everything in a nutshell>

Chapter I

THE REGULATION OF THE SACRED LITURGY

[14.] “The regulation of the Sacred Liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, which rests specifically with the Apostolic See and, according to the norms of law, with the Bishop.[34]

[15.] The Roman Pontiff, “the Vicar of Christ and the Pastor of the universal Church on earth, by virtue of his supreme office enjoys full, immediate and universal ordinary power, which he may always freely exercise”[35], also by means of communication with the pastors and with the members of the flock.

[16.] “It pertains to the Apostolic See to regulate the Sacred Liturgy of the universal Church, to publish the liturgical books and to grant the recognitio for their translation into vernacular languages, as well as to ensure that the liturgical regulations, especially those governing the celebration of the most exalted celebration of the Sacrifice of the Mass, are everywhere faithfully observed”.[36]

[17.] “The Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments attends to those matters that pertain to the Apostolic See as regards the regulation and promotion of the Sacred Liturgy, and especially the Sacraments, with due regard for the competence of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. It fosters and enforces sacramental discipline, especially as regards their validity and their licit celebration”. Finally, it “carefully seeks to ensure that the liturgical regulations are observed with precision, and that abuses are prevented or eliminated whenever they are detected”[37]. In this regard, according to the tradition of the universal Church, pre-eminent solicitude is accorded the celebration of Holy Mass, and also to the worship that is given to the Holy Eucharist even outside Mass.

[18.] Christ’s faithful have the right that ecclesiastical authority should fully and efficaciously regulate the Sacred Liturgy lest it should ever seem to be “anyone’s private property, whether of the celebrant or of the community in which the mysteries are celebrated”[38].

Brian!

Thanks very much for the clarification concerning POW being an authentic church document and for stating that it represents what you are pleased to call the mind of the Irish Bishops Conference.

There are some things I would have to say about you comments as I am left with the impression that as a member of the Art and Architecture Committee of the Irish Episcopal Conference you are perhaps not quite up tto speed about the legal or canonical staus of an Episcopal Conference and of its commissions and advisory bodies.

The Art and Architecture Committe of the Liturgical Commission of the Irish Episcopal Conferenbce is an Advisory Committee of the Liturgical Commission. The Liturgical Commission is an advisory doby of the Plenum of the Episcopal Conference and as such it can only provide advice to the Conference. A decision which the Plenum of the Conference is entitled to make following a canonical vote of all the voting members fo teh Conference can be entrusted to the Liturgical COmmission for EXECUTION. The Plenum of the Conference cannot delegate its responsabilities to a Commission.

When we bring these few principles to bear on the so called publication of Places of Worship, the Liturgy Commission could have proposed it to the Plenum of the Conference for a vote and so proceed to its publication AFTER it had been submitted to the Holy See for its approval. Had this happened, then the book POW would have been a canonically approved provision of the Conference and as such would have had vim legis. However, and it has been said umpteen times on this thread, this course of action was not followed. We do not know the reason for it. Perhaps the great minds in the Irish Episcopal Conference might have realised that had such a pathetic prodiuction been submitted to the Holy See someone would have to take out the red pencil and correct the poor scholars efforts. Clearly, the greter mninds in the Conference would have liked that.

What happened then seem to be that the Liturgical Commission of the Conference simply published the book. As an advisory body of the Plenum of the Conference, its job is to advise the Plenum of the Conference and any production of the Commission should be addreessed to the Plenum only. This is the provision of Apostolos Suos the motu proprio governing the running of Episcopal Conferences.. Since the Liturgy Commission did publish the book POW, what canonical or legal validity does it have or what force of law does it have? The answer to those questions is simply NONE. It is simply to be regarded as a private publication expressing private opinions. There are plenty of these around and few are to be given much if any credibility.

If BQ wishes to chek that what is outlined above concerning the jurisdiction, functioning and procedure of Episcopal Conferences is correct, then just take a trip to Ara Coeli and ask the BOSS himself and, I susppect, he will have no hesitation in confirming just what I have said.

As

Bravo Sangallo!!

But I fear you cast your theological pearls before the theologically ill instructed. from what I can see BQ has no theological competence what so ever and is simply parrotting a couple of half baked pieces of clap trap opicked up along the way.

The following would appear to be most recent list of members of the famous Art and Architecture Committee>

Dr Jacinta Prunty is chairpeson and Reverend Patrick Jones is secretary.
Other members are: Mr. Kevin Clancy, Mr Tom Glendon, Mr. Eamon J. Hedderman, Reverend Hugh Kennedy, Bríd Ní Rinn , Mr Paul O’Daly, Mr Brian Quinn, Mr George Walsh, Mr Alexander M. White.

In relation to Cobh Cathedral, we know what P. Jones thinks following his recent article in the Irish Times / in which he omitted to mention that he had been at the Midleton Oral Hearing and appeared as a witness for the Trustees of the Cathedral.

WE also know what Alex White thinks.

Eamonn Hedderman-s views and advice to the bishops over a long period can be guessed at.

Sr. Prunty wsas also involved in the Cobh Cathedral debacle. Why her advice should ever have been sought is a mystery. We understand that she is a historian specializing in 19th. century barrack building in Ireland.

It is understood that Fr. Hugh Kennedy has close connections with the bishop of Cloyne / both are chaplains to the Order of Malta.