Praxiteles
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As a comparison with the Armagh ceiling, I am attaching some pictures of the ceiling in the College Chapel (JJ. McCarthy) in Maynooth. The Chapel is internally 188 feet long, 40 feet wide and 70 feet high. The ceilig and internal furnishings of the chapel were installed by Robert Browne who subsequently became Bishop of Cloyne and completed the building of St. Colman’s Cathedral. The contract went to JJ. McCarthy’s successor, WIlliam Hague. The artist was N. H. C. Westlake and the execution was left to Robert Mannix of Dublin. The ceiling panels are painted on canvas and affixed to the wooden ceiling. The wok was carried out between March and December 1888:
The more I look at this, the more I am convinced that the last effort at “restoring” Armagh was a lost opportunity. Something much more in keeping with the pre-1904 arrangements could quite easily have been installed and would have been both esthetically and financially more satisfactory than it is now.
I expect that the next historic opportunity will arise with dim Duffy’s departure from Monaghan and the centainty that the horrors with which he burdened the interior will follow him shortly after. I think we should begin to prepare for that eventuality sooner rather than later and ensure that all of the necessary historical groundwork has been done so as to avoid the Armagh solution.
Well, at least this much has survived.
The inscription on the right hand side of the ceiling is indeed from paslm 83 ( Quam delicta tabernacula tua Domine virtutum ..how beautiful art thy dwellings Lord God of hosts..) and the angels do carry the instruments of the passion.
The prototype for the Baptism of Our in the Jordan is Juan Fernandez de Navarrete, “El Mudo”‘s picture of 1565 in the Prado.
Are the panels in the spandrels depictions from the life of St. Patrick, possibly taken from the Confessions of St. Patrick (the dream, the consecration by St. Germain l’Auxerrois, the mission from Pope Celestine)?
There seems to be some water ingress.
Surprising that the inscriptions under St. Luke’s account of the dream of St. Joseph and the flight into Egypt should be in English!
Thanks Fearg for the splendid pictures.
Hello Brian!! are you out there somewhere? Hello…..is anyone out there? Perhaps you might like to joint the discussion?
Bene hibernicis de omnibus Rhabane dixisti!!
Some one from the outside is always best placed to put his finger on a problem and diagnose the malady. It is most interesting what you say about the Irish Church’s decline in self understanding: how can we explain the slump from the self confidence that raised Cobh Cathedral (touched on by Anne WIlson and Jesse Castel Mitliski in their studies of St. Colman’s) to the kind of self (and everything else) effacing pathos (bathos?) of the likes of Drumaroad?
It is perhaps not unconnected with a very interesting historical detail concerning the period between the First Vatican Council (1869-1870) and the Second Vatican Council (1963-1965): in its principal (though not sole) representative at the First Vatican Council, Paul Cardinal Cullen, Archbishop of Dublin, the Irish Church played a pivotal role in the proceedings of that Council and thereby exercised considerable influence on the whole Catholic world . Indeed Paul Cullen produced the definition of papal infallibility that was eventually accepted by the Council; whereas 90 years later, the entire Irish hierarchy (with one or two exceptions) had nothing to say at the Second Vatican Council and were largely regarded by their more plugged in continental counterparts as totally detached not only from the kind of philosophical influences unleashed by the likes of Nitzsche and his ilk in the formation of the so called “modern world”, but more seriously, from every major theological development that had taken place within the previous fifty years. It was no surprise that the hierarchy were very quickly sidelined at the Council by the heavy guns who regarded what they had to say as about as relevant as though someone from Mongolia had said it. If you do not believe what I have to say, just read the submissions made tot the Ante-Preparatory Commission for the Second Vatican Council. All documents submitted to the commission havel been published in the Acta Sacrosancti Oecuminici Concilii Vaticani Secundi .
Is it any wonder that all we can do is laugh at the mouthful of guff that crossed the globe from Hong Kong to San Francisco on last Sunday’s BBC World Service: “The main problem we have is a 19th century sanctuary for a 21 st century liturgy”.
Hi Rhabanus!
Your advent to this discussion is truly a blessing and promises to be very postive. I liked your liturgical analysis of the ceiling in crossing at Armagh. Unfortunately, I very much doubt that much notice was taken of it. Certainly, I cannot recall mention of it in any of the broschure literature I saw before, during or after the arrival of BQ’s expeditionary force.
But to return to an earlier question of mine: I contended on this thread that BQ should have raised the Altar on a predella of at least one step and on possibly further steps bearing in mind the proportions of the crossing. BQ disputed that there was not any need to raise an Altar on a predella for, he claimed, the Institutio Generalis and the Caeremoniale Episcoporum, make no mention of this. He further calimed that the “praxis curiae” amassed by the Sacred Congregation for Rites had been abrogated by the publication of the 1984 Caeremoniale Episcoporum (for which I am not certain that an approved English translation exists); and the commentary of Pietro Gasparri de Sanctissima Eucharistia was dismissed as being simply “so pre-vatican II”.
I contended that at least one step is needed for any sacrificial altar to assure the prophetic, priestly and regal gesture of “ascending” to an Altar. BQ believes that he has an option not to use a predella when constructing an Altar and did not comment much on the point of ascending – although, I think that I did make reference to St. Augustine’s commentary on the Psalms of ascent and on his comments on the importance of this gesture both in cultic or liturgical activity (New and Old Testaments) and for the living of the Christinan life :laetatus sum in eo quod dixerunt mihi. in domum Domini ibimus. Stantes iam sunt pedes nostri in portis tuis Ierusalem!!. I think that I also referred to Augustine’s comments on the theological significance of “descent” and on their application to liturgical action (cf. Aurelii Augustini, Ennarationes in Psalmos 119-134 in J.P. Migne’s Patrologia Latina etc.). This line of discussion, however, seems to have dried up.
My problem about alllof this is to be seen in BQ’s arrangement of the sancturay of Armagh: a). an small ALtar of peculiar design sitting on the raised floor of the crossing; behind this is a higher plane (three steps higher, I think) containing b). a hemisphere of wooden chairs, covered in red, and built to resemble a faldisterium which seem to serve a dual purpose of “stalls” for the chapter and seats for concelebrants; and then, on a plane a further step higher, the Cathedra. As I pointed out, in this arrangement, we have the theologically peculiar sight of the Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of All Ireland, having to DESCEND several steps to the Altar which is just sitting on the crossing floor.
I have already pointed out that in the classical Basilicas where the Cathedra or sedilia is situated in the apse, the celebrant leaves the sedilia or cathedra, descend the steps, corsses the floor of the sanctuary and then ASCENDS the predella of the Altar – as e.g. in the Lateran, and Santa Maria in Trastevere in Rome.
I have also pointed out that the long tradition in other styles of churches has been to have the Cathedra on the Gospel side raised on three steps but never higher than the presella of the Altar. I posted a good example of this arrangement in Bordeaux Cathedral which, like Armagh, has a retro-choir. Indeed, since making those remarks the good Fearg unearthed a picture of the pre-1904 sanctuary in Armagh which reveals an arrangement very similar to Bordeaux – bearing out my point, I think.
As an impartial commentator and expert would you have any comments to make on the position I maintained in the face of BQ’s more social-democratic understanding of the theological concept of “Populus Dei” or People of God? Frankly, I do believe that BQ’s (faulty) understanding of this concept lies at the heart of all of our trouble!
Brian!
Thanks for the other shots of Drumaroad. They will allow for a closer consideration of the church. But. could ever tell us:
-a. what is that just inside what looks like having been the old main door?
– b. what is the black looking object standing in front of what looks like a side door – in fron of the chair?
– c. what is the tree-trunk looking object at wall end of the church?
– d. what is the totem looking black item on the wall?
Can I presume that what looks vaguely like a first empire occasional table is the Altar?
While not quite ad rem, the following quotation which was sent me is not without some bearing on the FOSCC case and on some of the charges laid at the doorstep:
One thing I deduce from the whole proceedings: that Irish bishops do not like judicial processes; a fact of the gravest import for the Irish Church. It is because I lament this so greviously – believing as I do, that no crime which the subject can commit is nearly so injurious to the public weal as is refusal of justice on the part of those who rule – it is because I am deeply convinced of this, while I lament that in the Irish Church there is no liking for judicial forms, in which alone are the safeguards of justice for the subject – it is for this reason and this alone, please God, I have set forth the details of this case. The only way left us to prevent scandals of this kind is to expose them – some of the worst of them, at least.
Would anyone have any idea of who wrote this?
@Fearg wrote:
Seems that it went in 1904, also, the mural/mosaic at the east end of the nave must also have been replaced at that time:
[ATTACH]2913[/ATTACH]
Oh! That is magnificent and perfectly appropriate above an Altar: the choirs of angels acarrying thuribles indicating divinity. Am I correct in thinking that there is a dove in the center cuspe?
@Fearg wrote:
The second link looks to be even earlier, notice that the stained glass is not yet installed in the east window and the niches in the reredos are empty.
[ATTACH]2912[/ATTACH]
Indeed, Fearg, you are perfectly correct. This photograph is focused on the Lady Chapel Altar and is taken over the altar in the crossing – you can just about see the top of it. Would this be c. 1880.
Did you notice the depiction of the Crucifixion over the Porta Coeli arch reproducing a medieval element found on rood-screens? I wonder is it still there?
@Fearg wrote:
Here is a link to the report:
I have just listened to this BBC link provided by Fearg. The diocesean spokesperson exudes a less than totally reassuring sense. I had to laugh at the mouthfoul of guff pourded aout by him: “The real problem is that we have a 19th. century sanctuary for 21 st. century worship”. ! There is one for – no doubt landed to him by Paddy Jones and repeated in the case of less than well educated Augustinian friars in Galway. Clearly, the Cloyne spokesman has not been keeping up to date with his clerical reading and does not appear to have heard anything of the hermeneutic of continuity.
This photograph which Fearg has managed to unearth shows what the interior of Armagh Cathedral was like prior to 1904 and is truly most interesting.
Firstly, we have an Altar in the crossing, elevated on three steps, without reredos, and supplied with six very tall candlesticks and a seemingly small Crucifix and no tabernacle. I suspect that this arrangement is probably proportionate to the hight of the arches in the crossing. The present arrangement is not.
Secondly, the throne is on the right (gospel side) of the sanctuary, on steps, but lower than the altar. In front of the throne, and on the floor, a priedieu. The bogusness of the current claims for the so called “antiphonal” arrangement is clear from this photograph: you will notice that the seating in the transepts is arranged to face the sanctuary.
Behind the Altar is the retro choir which is railed off both in front and behind. Nothing survives of the choir stalls.
Behind the retor choir is another (Lady?) altar, with a tabernacle. Nothing survives of this but the reredos. The mensa has been gutted.
This arrangement, in all its major elements, is practically identical with the photographs that I have already posted of Bordeaux Cathedral.
Clearly, a wonderful opportunity was wasted with the last “reordering”. It is a terrible pity that those who were responsible for the lastest in Armagh did not do a bit more (if any) historical research.
Thanks Fearg for that more than useful link to the BBC ptrogramme. It says it all that the bishop should decide to train the sights on his own flock – and on the best part of it.
There you are! It is like the inquisition the tenttacles just reach everywhere! Have got a link to it ?
More about the bell peal in St. Ottilien:
http://www.erzabtei.de/html/Jahrbuch/1999/Glocken/Glocken.html
Some pictures of the Abbey Church
http://www.erzabtei.de/html/Bilder/Serien/Kirche/kirche.html
Under “Aktuelles” is a link to the sung offices of monastery:
http://www.erzabtei.de/html/index.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Ottilien_Archabbey
The following link contains a recording of the bells of the Archabbey of St. Ottilien, Augsburg. It is interesting for the peal is still rung according to the tradition of Cluny. Bells were rung not together, but after each other. This was the method of bell ringing in the great medieval churches. In St. Ottilien, this peal is rung only five times in the year (though perhaps six times this year): Christmas, Epiphany, Easter, Penetcost, and the feast of the Sacred Heart. The full peal takes 22 minutes to complete.
(hit the red KLUNIAZENSERLAUTEN for the recording)
http://www.erzabtei.de/html/Jahrbuch/1999/Glocken/kluni.html
More Bells:
The Church of ST. Anthony in Regensburg:
http://home.arcor.de/armrein/Regensburg_Anton.htm
St Michael’s am Keilberg in Regensburg
http://home.arcor.de/armrein/Regensburg_Keilberg.htm
St. Paul’s am Konigswiesen in Regensburg
http://home.arcor.de/armrein/Regensburg_Paul.htm
St. George’s Pruefining in Regensburg
http://home.arcor.de/armrein/Regensburg_Georg.htm
St. Joesph’s Ziegersdorf in Regensburg
http://home.arcor.de/armrein/Regensburg_Ziegetsdorf.htm
Holy Trinity Amberg
http://home.arcor.de/armrein/Amberg_Dreifaltigkeit.htm
The WIlten Basilica in Innsbruck (Austria)
http://home.arcor.de/armrein/Innsbruck_Wilten.htmThe Abbey Church of Sts Theodore and Alexander at Ottobeuren
More Bells:
(hit the bell-icon under the description to hear the peal in each case)
The 18 bell peal of the Cathedral of the Asumption of Our Lady into Heaven in Eichstaett made from the 14th. century to 1957:
http://home.arcor.de/armrein/Eichstaett_Dom.htm
The peal in the South tower containing two bells cast in 1265 and in 1299
http://home.arcor.de/armrein/Eichstaett_Dom.htm
The Cathedral in Regensburg
http://home.arcor.de/armrein/Regensburg_Dom.htm
The Basilica of St. Ulrich and St Afra in Augsburg containing the Benedict bell cast in 1280:
