Praxiteles
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@descamps wrote:
Bishop held another meeting last Friday with the canons of the cathedral. It went on for a long time but they were not discussing the cathedral. When bishop did get to talk about it he had some interesting things to say about his recent (short) meeting with BXVI, by what the birdies in Cobh are singing. He gave away one vital piece of information: he did not bring up the subject of the cathedral with BXVI — BXVI BROUGHT IT UP WITH HIM and said that he knew Cobh and the view over the harbour from the cathedral, he knew the beautiful cathedral, he had been having LOTS and LOTS of letters of complaint from the troops on the ground in Cobh. Bish. also told the canons that BXVI had asked him about the high altar, the tabernacle, the reredos, and more importantly, the ALTAR RAILS, and the schoold boy had to answer his questions as best he could from an unprepared text and without the help of Brian McCutcheon and Denny Reidy. Sounds like he was up the creek without the proverbial…. It does not take much to figure out that a bishop would not want to be attracting notice or attention for himself when the one noticing and attending is BXVI. The message in all of that to anyone with eyes and ears in their head is to leave well enough alone.
By the sound of that the “approval” is even more tenuous than the “approval” given by Cardinal Arinze. In fact, I am inclined to think that some one must have misheard the word “approval”. Can the Pope be expected to hand out lollypops to people who generate such large quanrtities of protest mail – that merely shows that we are not up to the job.
kite wrote:Pope backs Bishop’s Cathedral plansForm the Evening Echo 25-11-06
By: Ronan BagnallTHE BISHOP Of Cloyne Dr John Magee will put forward new proposals to change St. Colman’]
Bishop Magee has a credibility problem in the wake of his previous dealings both with the FOSCC, the People of Cobh, and with the public authorities in Cobh Urban District Council and in An Bord Pleanala. At the outset of the Cathedral controvrsy the bishop made a solemn promise at public meeting in the Commodore Hotel in Cobh that nothing would be done to the Cathedral until he came back and consulted the people again. He tried to get out of that by ensuring that he never again appeared a public meeting in Cobh and tried to fob the populace off by sending the local clergy to tell them what he had in mind during the station Masses. In October 2003, he was writing to Rome telling them that he had completed his plans and wanted the famous “word of encouragement” for those who drew them up. In April 2004 he told the FOSCC in writing that no plans had been finalised. He told Cobh UDC and An Bord Planala that that the changes he was proposing for the Cathedral were “required” by the liturgical norms when they most certainly are not (and sufficient professional evidence was brought forward in the Midleton Oral Hearing to make that clear). What are we to make of a claim that the Pope approved his plans during the recent trip to Rome? At best, it must have been a very superficial conversation given that after nearly a month’s stay in Rome Bishop Magee had the Pope’s ear for all of 12.14 minutes on 20 October 2006. At worst, the bishop is either on a mushroom or two or esle we are fibbing again.
I would say the FOSCC is very wise to ask to see the alleged “approval” in writing – they are probably on to a winner there!
@Fearg wrote:
Modern Ulster Architecture: New Book
New thread was started on this subject today – what might be of interest to regulars on this thread, is that the book contains articles on many of Liam McCormick’s churches from the 60s and 70s, many of which have been discussed here. Including Burt, Steelstown (tent) and Glenties..
Ferg!
Do we have any publishing details to hand on this work?
@kite wrote:
I the overall responsibility for planning, looking after our heritage, etc. is in the hands of Cork City Council and the CEO of same, Mr. Joe Gavin.
A case of ménager le chevre avec les choux!
It looks as though Irish vandalism and ignorance are now being exported. While looking for a photograph of the Chapel of the Irish College in Louvain to illustrate the arrangement of a sanctuary with three altars – a feature of churches built by Br. M.A. O’Riordan – I was aghast to find that the 17th. century interior of the chapel of St. Anthony’s College in Louvain has only recently been compkletely demolished by the governments of Northern Ireland and of the Irish Republic to provide a 200 seater auditorium for an Irish “cultural” centre in Louvain. Can you credit that?
@Gianlorenzo wrote:
There is no information as yet about any plans or who drew them up. The local council knows nothing about ‘new plans’ or ‘meetings’ – it is all very odd. Likewise the Heritage office of Cork Co. Council.
What about Denis Deasey, does he know anything about plans?
Here is something we missed!
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/1999/07/21/ihead_27.htm
It gives a good insight into the level we are dealing with: “kind of harmony”, “blend in with”….
@kite wrote:
😮 Do we as a city have a hope under the present Management and Councillors??
Ay, Kite! Ther’s the rub..whether ’tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outragous fortune or take arms against a sea of troubles and, by so opposing, end them!
@Fearg wrote:
Any idea as to what these new plans entail? Are they really new?
No one has been consulted. Everything appears to have been done behind closed doors. We have yet to see plans – probably not earlier than when/if they will be lodged for a planning application.
@Praxiteles wrote:
Thanks Gianlorenzo for that. It means that the emboldended bishop had, at max, all of 12.85 minutes to cover the ground.
We are quickly approaching levels of velocity last seen when the Lady Mary O’Halloran, Cobh Town Manageress, managed to read 214 objections in 4 hours which must have been a record of 1.12 minutes per objection.
Gianlorenzo!
It strikes me that we will have to revise that figure again. I forgot to reckon going/coming for 7 people. Thus the figure now is :
120 divided by (7 x 5), all divided by 7
So, that should be 85 minutes divided by 7 which now leaves everybod with an average maximum of 12.14 minutes with the Pope.
I have also checked the Vatican Gazzette for the following two weeks and no further Audience was granted to our bold bishop. So, after nearly a month in Rome he had the Pope’s ear for all of 12.14 minutes max. That, I suppose, was generous when you consider that Prime Ministers get a max of 30 minutes.
The point is clear from the Gazzette of the Audience of 30 October 2006 when the Pope received the Prime Minister of East Timor who would have had 30 minutes.
Then he received the Ambassador of Pakistan who would have had 15 minutes.
Then he received only 4 Irish bishops that morning, each getting circa. 10 minutes.
That adds up to 85 minutes. The remaining time was spent greeting a group.
So, clearly, there was no long term conversation with the Pope about St. Colman’s Cathedral.
http://212.77.1.245/news_services/bulletin/news/19118.php?index=19118&po_date=27.10.2006&lang=en
@Gianlorenzo wrote:
He was one of 7 bishops received that morning which cuts the time down even more.
Thanks Gianlorenzo for that. It means that the emboldended bishop had, at max, all of 12.85 minutes to cover the ground.
We are quickly approaching levels of velocity last seen when the Lady Mary O’Halloran, Cobh Town Manageress, managed to read 214 objections in 4 hours which must have been a record of 1.12 minutes per objection.
@samuel j wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Magee_(bishop)
On 26 October 2006, Pope Benedict XVI met Bishop Magee in a private audience that, surprisingly, lasted only eight minutes.
If we take out 2 minutes for the formal hello and goodbye…. he must have got alot done in 6 minutes…“Cooperative”, thats nice of them…. looks like the bold Bishop and the OPW are in some unique little club here as when it comes to planning issues can guarantee you most mortals in Cobh only dream about a cooperative planner
According to the Vatican Gazzette, bishop Magee was received by the Pope on 20 October 2006:
http://212.77.1.245/news_services/bulletin/news/19055.php?index=19055&po_date=20.10.2006&lang=en
He was one of 6 bishops received that morning. The Pope receives bewteen 11.am and 1pm. That gives a maximum amount of time of some two hours or 120 minutes. Since 6 people were received that morning the maximum amount of time available for each one was some 20 minutes. But, since you have to allow for intervals between the departure of one person and the arrival of the next, that maximum amount of time is considerably reduced. If we allow 5 minutes minimum for arrivals and departures, we automatically lose 30 minutes, So, we can reckon that some 90 minutes of audience time was available on the morning of 20 October 2006. That would allow a maximum average time of 15 minutes per person. Even if we allow the full 15 minutes for the bold bishop, that does not allow for a very in depth conversation about the state of St. Colman’s Cathedral and presupposes that he did not raise more important issues such as his age, his knee, the collapse of vocations in the diocese of Cloyne and sharp decline in practice levels to say nothing of other urgent pastoral issues. Can we seriously believe that the bold bihsop would omit mention of such pressing pastoral concerns to waste time showing the Pope his latest snap-shots? Given this forensic approach to the question of audience time, I am inclined to think that the bold bishop is exaggerating again and likely to be halluncinating a would-be converstaion with the Pope that he might have liked to have had.
@samuel j wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Magee_(bishop)
On 26 October 2006, Pope Benedict XVI met Bishop Magee in a private audience that, surprisingly, lasted only eight minutes.
If we take out 2 minutes for the formal hello and goodbye…. he must have got alot done in 6 minutes…“Cooperative”, thats nice of them…. looks like the bold Bishop and the OPW are in some unique little club here as when it comes to planning issues can guarantee you most mortals in Cobh only dream about a cooperative planner
It was more than obvious that Cobh Urban District Council was in close cahoots with the bold bishop the last time around going out of their way to ensure that he had all the permission he wanted to wreck the interior of St. Colman’s Cathedral – even to the extent of allowing him to install new furnishings and fittings for whioch no plans had been submitted or furnished to the Cobh UDC. That further “cooperation” is going on will come as no surprise and may well explain the business of denizens in the UDC trying to keep the new Italian town architect out of the Cathedral business and to keep the holiday-making Denis Deasey in the Cathedral business. He was particularly “cooperative” the last time around and saw no difficulties about a crowd of hoodlums digging out the floor of the sanctuary in the middle of the night. He was so cooperatibe that he came close enough to saying that he could not have done a better job himself!! Of course this “expert” did not seem to know that the floor has been valued at around
@descamps wrote:
Descamps was in Cork to-day and quite unexpectedly ran into a group of clergy from the diocese of Cloyne who were having a liturgy meeting with Fr. Danny Murphy, Fr. Sean Terry, Fr. Denis Reidy and architect Alex White. Bishop Magee was also there and spoke to the group.
He told them that he had been to Rome and had spoken to the Pope. He said that he had shown a new set of plans and photographs for Cobh Cathedral to the Pope. He insinuated that the Pope told him to go ahead with them – though he allowed himself sufficient room to back out of this should awkward questions be asked at a later date (Readers will remember that at the Midleton hearing he was badly caught telling fibbs on a similar heading).
More interestingly, he said that when he had spoken to the Local Planning Authority (Cobh Town Council) and he was given to understand that they would be “cooperative” and try to help in any way possible with whatever he might want to do. They told him to bring back a new set of plans to them, he said.
The driving force in this initiative seems to be Fr. Denny Reidy of Carrigtwohill. Curiously, there was no sign of Tom Cavanagh from Fermoy who was a staunch supporter of the last project.
The bold bishop announced that he was going ahead with another reordering scheme to gut the interior of Cobh Cathedral no matter what the people of Cobh or the diocese of Cloyne think.
Has the FOSCC heard of this?
Well, well…is not this an interesting piece of news. It looks as though we do not know when to stop digging the hole. By now now we must not be able to see the light any more. One thing is certain: if the bishop of Cloyne is stupid enough to go ahead with such a project, he will face the unabated opposition of the people of Cobh and the diocese of Cloyne. So far, he has gotten off lightly. But, if it proves true that he intends to do another mad project, then he will just have to be taught a lesson.
Here is one for the Cork County Manager:
http://donal.wordpress.com/2006/01/23/cork-county-council-potholes/
@Rhabanus wrote:
Rhabanus has heard nothing. He hopes that the Archangel’s wings haven’t been clipped by the local clergy or his angelic person tasered by the diocesan thought police. Check the basements in Clontarf, and report any foul play.
When do we send out the search party? Sammy and Fearg, take a few cameras and leave a trail for the rest of us in case you are ambushed.
Are you out there, Archangel? Send us a sign. Give us an Angelic Salutation.
I am afraid that poor old Archangel hseems to have disappeared.
