Praxiteles
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WE certainly know when to pick our moments! It seems that the bishop of Cloyne is intent on wrecking the usual seasonal truce from controversy by issuing a senseless statement to the Evening Echo in Cork. Presumably, its publication on 22 December 2006 is to preclude a response from the FOSCC. However, in this he is quite silly for the FOSCC will deal with this after Christmas with some other matters. As a note of interest, does the bishop of Cloyne think or intend working with An Bord Pleannala to arrive at his new set of plans before he leaves office in four years time? There could be some legal issues there that An Bord Pleannala might like to look at. From what we can gather this isthe third version of the bold bishop’s conversation with the Pope. If he describes as “absolute nonsense” claims that plans are afoot to reorder the Cathedral, thenn why might we not ask was he himself talking this same “absolute nonsense” to his priests and to the Cathedral chapter as we gather from reports in the papers? Here is the article published in the Evening Echo:
Evening Echo 22nd Dec. 2006.
THE Bishop of Cloyne has vowed to complete the re-ordering of St Colman’s Cathedral in Cobh before he leaves office.
Speaking to the Evening Echo, Bishop John Magee said: “I started the work of the restoration of the cathedral in Cobh in 1992 and I would wish, before leaving this diocese at the end of my term of office that I would have completed the work that I set out to do.”
This includes the liturgical re-ordering of the Sacristy, which has caused 1 considerable controversy in Cobh.
The 70-year-old bishop met with strong opposition from the Friends of St Colman’s Cathedral group, which claimed that the changes originally proposed were not in keeping with the design of the cathedral.
An Bord Pleanala was in agreement re with the objectors,
Bishop Magee said that there are currently no new plans in place for the re-ordering of the Sacristy.
Describing as “absolute nonsense” reports that there are plans in place approved by the Pope, Bishop Magee said that he had publicly acknowledged An Bord Pleanala’s rejection of the original plans for re-ordering of the cathedral.
“We shall be working together with the planning authority to see how we can move forward, so as to make sure that the liturgical requirements are respected,” he added.
The bishop also intends to consult widely in relation to any new plans and it is hoped that a proposal can be reached which is acceptable to all.
On his recent .visit to Rome, Bishop – Magee spoke with Pope Benedict XVI in relation to the cathedral, and His Holiness said: “It is a beautiful cathedral. I have not seen its interior but I imagine that it is beautiful.
“I encourage you to do what you can to preserve the beauty of that cathedral for the generations to come said the Pope.It also seems strange that the bishop of Cloyne is unaware of the protocol that one does not repeat the contents of a conversation with the Pope. If the Pope wishes to say something in public, does he not usually do so through his press spokesperson – and bishop Magee certainly is not that!!
This beautiful window by Early and Powell of Dublin in St. Mary’s Chapel, Maynooth College, appeared on the Irish Times this morning. Best seen in inthe late afternoon in June/July. Unfortunately, St. Mary’s Chapel has been wrecked beyond recognition and the windows (2 windows) have survived only because they are inserted into the walls. The first make over was done in 1970 by Michael Harty, subsequently bishop of Killaloe and was truly awful. The last make over was carried out about three years ago by Richard Hurley advised by Paddy Jones, a so called liturgist.
Happy Christmas to all posters and viewers. Joyeux Noel
@samuel j wrote:
Ballymore Church, Cobh, Co. Cork.
What an utter shame… that original carved wood altar must have been a stunning bit of workmanshipPrax you’re gonna have a heart attack … Hello , Prax…are you there …
Yes, I am still here…what do want?
Re the Cistercians this link may prove useful:
@ake wrote:
By the way in the above interior shot you can see the end of the nave is set up as a reception area with all sorts of ugly commercial clutter. This has happened in all the major Irish Anglican churches I’ve been in, and the ‘shop fittings’ which is exactly what they are, are often extremely permanent and always crude and imposing. It is not balked at to have gift shops with tourist keyring stalls and scarf-racks down the nave from the altar! The amusing point is, our Catholic churches are being destroyed at their east end by over-zealous priests with too much money to spend, and our Anglican churches are being vandalised at the west end in an attempt to acquire funds usually simply to survive intact!
Not quite so simple. The west ends of Catholic churches are currently in grave danger because of the latest crap out of places like Chuicago and Collegeville: it is called the gathering area and basically consists of clearing EVERYTHING at the west end to create a sort of glass hall in which people meet and chat and do other activities before and after “church”. The worst example of such -and an advance warning example – is the parish church in DIngle, Co. Kerry, which had its gables lowered by 20 feet to make it look like an american bungalow “church”. In case you had not noticed, a similar plan was in train for St. Colman’s Cathedral but for once Cobh Urban District Council baulked.
asmodeus wrote:When the UK’s Queen mother died recently BBC NI did a feature where they interviewed certain grandees who had met the old drunk. One Orange Man had met her twice]Please, a little respect for the late Queen-Empress. Whatever else she was always extremely generous with her refreshments at Cheltenham!!!
@ake wrote:
Does anyone know anything about the Mental Hospital in enniscorthy? What a spectacle! What is the history of this building? I can’t find any information on it.
According to jeremy WIlliams’ Companion to Architecture in Ireland p. 379, the architects are Farrell and Bell with an extension added in c. 1899 C.A. Owen.
There was the tradition that it was supposed to have been designed for a governmental purpose in the Raj but I have no evidence to support that.
Indeed it was mentioned on posting no. 397 in brilliant monoglotic English!! …and please leave Kite alone. he has enough to do putting up with a small man.
James Furlong wrote:I see that now, I did not see that at the time of my posting given that work did not afford me the time to read back over a few pages of posts. Apologies.I fear the tone of your reply highlights that the argument is lost on you. I clearly point out that criticisms can and should be discussed in a mature and responsible manner. The issue I was disputing is the consistent and sarcastic jibes that continue in this forum. Criticise were appropriate but I understand the title of this forum is Developments in Cork and I hear very little active discussion on how the architecture and face of Cork is developing in terms of buildings proposed. The fact that one of the most important developments to hit Cork city in years, Saint Patricks Street and Academy Street development, was granted earlier this week and it hasn’t even been discussed yet says it all to me really. I don’t know if anyone has seen the revised designs which I believe were influenced by a UK architect firm. From what I’ve been told 19 apartments were lost off the 68 proposed in the revised scheme. My inkling is that O’Callaghan will probaby go ahead with this and apply for new apartments while under construction.
And on Water Street, it was granted. A shadow of its original but granted all the same. I imagine the developers won’t be proceeding with it until the tax breaks come through however so seeing the buildings rise up could be a while away yet.[/QUOT
I am quite certain that I saw a discussion (in English) about the O’Callaghan proposal for Patrick’s Street and Academy Street earlier on this page. Let me check.
@samuel j wrote:
Ballymore Church, Cobh, Co. Cork.
What an utter shame… that original carved wood altar must have been a stunning bit of workmanshipPrax you’re gonna have a heart attack … Hello , Prax…are you there …
It is a spectacular piece of bad taste more than anything else. In fact, I know the exact identity of the person responsible for the wrecking of the sanctuary in Ballymore – he also was responsible for Rushbrooke. Indeed, he exerted an undue influence on many of the first wave of “re-orderings” that took place in the diocese of Cloyne during the 1970s. The most serious piece of destruction that can be directly attributable to this person was the destruction of the sanctuary in Fermoy church – and especially of its pulpit which was an early work of the Cork sculptor Seamus Murphy. That work was important in that it showed Murphy’s ability in a medium (marble) other than limestone. He has a description of it in his book Stone Mad. The person responsible for utter destruction once told Praxiteles, who had questioned him rather awkwardly about it, that although the pulpit in Fermoy was by Murphy it was of little significance for it was in marble!!!! I understand that the fragments of the pulpit are still in the possession of the family who donated it – when they discovered what had happened, they came and took away the pieces to store them themselves -it all sounds like a mirror reflection of something out of Eamonn Duffy’s book on the brutalism of the reformation in England The Stripping of the Altars. For the moment, de mortuis nihil nisi bonum
I would not despair of Ballymore. The stincil work is quite likely to be underneath the horrible paint which can be taken off and what ever is there can fairly easily be restored. In those places where the patterns have not survived, new stincils can easily made. I will bet that the niches have been covered over with bit of board that can easily be thrown out.
Let us be claer about things: Vatican II did not say that statues were not to be in sannctuaries. Post conciliar legislation insisted that they there in reasonable numbers -which is quite a different thing. It insisted that if there were four statues of the BVM in the sanctuary they were to be reduced to one – in most cases, that would be reasonable.
However, the iconoclasts used this to begin their work of destruction. After Xmas, I will search out the exact piece of legislation and post it.
The choir of angels on the attic of the East wall in Ballymore was a common feature. A lovely example in mosaic is to be found on the attic of sanctuary wall in Charleville church – and in Midleton, as far as I can recall.
@Gianlorenzo wrote:
What you see is not a tabernacle but a superstructure put in front of the tabernacle. It is made of wood and has a small curtain arrangement, which I think is the point. It sits on the altar but the Hosts are reserved in the actual Sacred Heart Tabernacle behind. Hope that clears things up.
A superstructure sitting on the altar in front of the tabernacle makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It is completey eccentric!!
[/I] @Gianlorenzo wrote:
It could be between Holy Thursday and the Easter Vigil. The Sacred Heart Chapel is used at that time for reservation of the Hosts and the covering you see is put in place at that time.
On other occasions when the Sacred Heart Chapel is used that particular structure is not used. So I am guessing that the photos were taken at Easter. THE_Chris can confirm.If this is used as a tabernacle, even at Easter time, I am afraid that it must be contrary to the present liturgical norms governing tabernacles. A tabernacle must be immoveable ans the case shown in the picture of the Sacred Heart Chapel in Cobh Cathedral cannnot be such – unless they bored a bolt into the mensa of the altar,-on which, by the way, nothing is supposed to be placed. This is truly very edifying coming from the powers that be in Cobh Cathedral with all their guff about liturgical appropriateness. If they are interested, or indeed able, gthey might like to check the provisions of theInstitutio generalis Missalis Romani , article 314 on the fixture and security of the tabernacle; and article 306 in relation to what is to be placed on an altar. Indeed, the original tabernacle on the altar of the Sacred Heart is in perfect conformity with the present legislation on tabernacles in that it is fixed to the reredos, of solid material, and is not placed on the altar but on the gradine of the reredos – and they tell us that Cobh Cathedral is not suitable for the modern liturgy!!
@ake wrote:
Just a few questions concerning the management of churches, if anyone knows:
Today I was in the recently refurbished and re-opened RC cathedral in Waterford (designed by John Roberts who also designed the COI cathedral in the same city, which they say makes Waterford the only city in Europe whose Protestant and Catholic cathedrals had the same architect) begun 1793 making it a very much Georgian Catholic cathedral. It is so magnificent and has been so well restored I almost don’t want to say anything negative, however I’m going to. The problem is the paint job- it could be argued that the colour of the paint does not affect the appearance of the interior significantly, but while the architecture and ornament are still appreciable, I think an innappropriate colouring does reduce the aesthetic, potentially seriously. In the cathedral the side walls (south and north) are a perfect, soft, unobtrusive light yellow which goes splendidly with the dark woodwork (which is truly the most extensive and beautiful I’ve seen in an Irish RC church), but the east end and the many columns are painted a light baby blue! (Before the recent work it was an even darker blue) the effect is truly awful, and the blue should so obviously be the same yellow as the rest! Another church (also wonderful) in Waterford suffers from the same misfortune- the Franciscan church. This is also a light yellow, perhaps the very same one, but the chancel is painted a gaudy red and the crossing ceiling an absurd orangy yellow- contiguous with the light yellow and clashing with it dreadfully. Many Irish churches in fact are badly coloured. Now I noticed both of the above churches have been re-ordered ( however extremely sympathetically- so much so in fact, it is hardly re-ordering in the usual, destructive sense. That’s not to condone it -it shouldn’t have been done) and I’m wondering
1. Is a new colour scheme ever, or usually a part of the re-ordering carried out by the priests or bishops?
2. Even ignoring re-orderment- is the colour for a church interior usually specified in it’s design, and intentionally retained- or is it under the fancy of the parish priest every 5 years or so, depending on what mood he’s in?
3. Has anyone between the Irish Archbishops and the Pope expressed even an acknowledgement of what has happened to the churches in Ireland, not to even speak of regret?
4. Can anyone with a good knowledge of Catholic bureaucracy please answer me this: Are the Catholic churches in Ireland owned directly by the Holy See- if they are, is there not an official in charge of them, someone qualified and knowledgeable about the vast heritage/property of the Church, whose job is to protect and preserve them?
If anyone in the know could answer any of these for me I’m really grateful.
Colour schemes usually are included in so called “reordering” schemes. One of the worst in the country must surely be the abbey chapel of the Benedictines at Glenstal. The main walls are covered in the most awful psycodyllic wavy bands -enough to induce mal de mer and cause the congregation to take refuge in the side aisles. Usually, the forward architects and the backward liturgists come up with fanciful ideas that somehow or other suddenly become “liturgically” required.
I believe that all colour schemes SHOULD fall under the preservation of protected interiors. I cannot imagine anyone disputing that in the case of a georgian country house.
As far as acknowledging a problem is concerned, most of the Irish hierarchy are not even aware taht one exists. Just look at their statement of “solidarity” with the bishop of Cloyne condemning an Bord Pleannala for its decision in relation to Cobh Cathedral.
Who protects the heritage of the Church: that is indeed a good question. Up to lately, any PP in the country could be relied on to do his bit in a fairly competent fashion. But, at present, well….this thread says it all.
Brilliant photographs and a wonderful glimpse at aspects of St. Colman’s Cathedral practically never seen. I especially like the photograph of the Sacred Heart Chapel and the Piet
@jdivision wrote:
Both Aldi and Lidl sell drink, most of which is actually okay and very cheap. It’s like going into a large Centra or a Super Valu, most of them have off-licences within the shops too.
Lidl’s Irish whiskey is excellent and distilled in Dundalk!
@Gianlorenzo wrote:
BTW I noticed today that Baptisty and Mortuary Chapels have been cleaned – well done ladies.:) Also when I visited the Cathedral the flower ladies were hard at it so we can expect the usual wonderful display for Christmas.:D (
Well, that is some bit of progress. Can we assume that Archiseek had anything to do with it?
@kite wrote:
Some Councillors needed to justify jumping from being totally opposed to Lidl one week to welcoming the development on the night of the vote. All are aware that Lidl will go straight to ABP and would be 99% sure of overturning CCC’s condition.
Thya must all have been under the influence ……. of Fr. Matthew!!
@THE_Chris wrote:
I saw a white crow a few years ago 😀
Must be the Italian influence on Cobh Urban District Council!!!
@THE_Chris wrote:
Will be interesting to see if this Church Advisory Commitee will do anything useful, or if they’re just a pointless bit of red tape.
Im home for Christmas now. Hopefully I can find those Cathedral bell pics and that magazine of Ballymore interior before its ruination 🙂
Edit: Jackpot 😀 Got loads of pics of the clock workings, the insides of the clock faces and pics from up the top of the main spire. Will post over the next few days when I have a chance 😀
This little gereatric soviet is very dangerous. Note that after the last advice they gave (it was all right to wreck the interior) none of them has resigned or even tendered a resignation. You would imagine that a body which caused major embarrassment to its boss would have enough sense to know that it cannot continue and must go. But, in this case, no such civic sense. The only explanation I can think of is that a number of the members must not have sufficiently clear faculties to be able to tender a valid resignation!!
The actions of this little soviet have been highlighted in relation to Cobh Cathedral. But, nobody notices their pernicioous influence on the many small and insignificant churches in the diocese of Cloyne. ONe could cite the example of St. Joseph’s Church in Liscarroll, Co. Cork. The cultural revolutionists have been busy on this project and will no doubt have unanimously recommended a major wreck job on this mid 19th century village church.
The Diocese of Cloyne has just published its Diocesan Directory for 2007 and provides the list of those serving on the Cloyne Historic Churches Advisory Committee. We are told that this committee has been established in “compliance with Planning Act 2000 (sic) without mentioning section or number of the act.
The following are those presently sitting on the Cloyne HACK:
1. Canon S
