Praxiteles
Forum Replies Created
- Posts
More from Windele (1839) on Cloyne Cathedral:
“Attached to one of the piers, in the south range. is a handsome monument, erected to the memory of Bishop Bennett, (the friend of Parr). It was designed by W. WIlles, and executed in white marble, by J. Heffernan, both of Cork, the latter a disciple of Chantry,a nd it represents an Indian kneeling under the shadow of a palm tree, his clasped hands on an open Bible, and his face lifted up, with an expression of the most ardent devotion. The Bishop was a zealous advocate of the foreign Bible society, the result of whose efforts is here finely expressed…..
I the north transept is an altar tomb, belonging to the Fitzgeralds of Imokilly; on it are laid some fragments of a mailed figure, which had probably once belonged ot it. The Latin inscription records the death of John Geraldinis, and his son. who both died in 1612. Attached to the wall, is a monument of Dr. Woodward, Bishop of CLoyne, who died in 1794. He was the author of “The Present State of the Church of Ireland”, published in 1787,..his epitaph states that he was the advocate, in his place in the House of Peers, of Catholic Emancipation. At the same side, is a mural monument to Bishop Warburton, another bishop of the See, who died in 1826.
Shaun!
The pictures of Averbode are stupendous. It is really a magnificent church and, fortunately (unlike ourselves in Ireland, has practically all of its original features in situ. However, I must say that the modern platform in front of the altar rail is just brutal: the incorrect number of altar steps, the ambo is on the epistle side rather than on the Gospel side, the junk seating behind the platform and immediately in front of the nave altars; and, if I am seeing it correctly, some sort of queer scaffolding in front of the beautiful wrought-iron gate to the sanctuary.
The choir stalls are quite magnificent as is the High Altar. Any chance of a some pictures of Grimbergen?
@johnglas wrote:
Prax: I think it’s now about time for a Cobh ‘Committee of Public Safety’ or equivalent to secularise the building and put it into the hands of a competent authority. (I’m not saying that the Lord Bishop should be guillotined in Cobh’s equivalent of the Place de la Concorde, but…)
This case also underlines the fallacy of regarding major items of patrimony like Cobh cathedral as just a slightly bigger parish church that can be managed in the same way as a rural parish.Praxiteles has for quite a while been adverting to the fact that Cobh Cathedral lacks any form of INSTITUTIONAL maintenance. It is appalling that a major monument should not have an Institutional body to ensure its maintenance and repair. Unfortunately, the complications of such a task far outstrip the possibilities of any Cathedral administrator – as is perfectly clear from the patethic efforts w have seen recently which are more to be expected in the context of village parish hall.
The formation of an institutionaal body to supervise the fabric of Cobh Cathedal, to Praqxiteles’ mind, is smething that should be left to private individuals. Praxiteles does not share the opinions of some that the State is likely to be better or best when it come to the preservation or conservation of historic monuments. Indeed, there are plenty of examples to suggest the contrary: take for instance the idiotic carry-on of the Board of Worsk at Cormac’s Chapel which has been discussed on this forum. In the case of Cobh Cathedral, Praxiteles does not believe that anything better is to be expected. Let it not be forgotten that the State -as represented by the Department of the Environmment through Freddie O’Dwyer – put in an absolutely flaccid performance at the Midleton Oral Hearing. It was clear to those in Midelton that it had done little or no preparation. It was appalling that the State through the Dept. of the Envoronment represented by Freddie O’Dwyer should come to Midleton basically to discuss a compromise plan that was equally destructive of the Cathedral’s fabric. Given that sort of forma mentis Praxiteles thinks that it is better to have what the Americans call a division and separation of powers: if the State through the Dept of the Environment or one of its dependent bodies had control of the structure of Cobh Cathedral, what would there be to stop it from implementing its hair-brained scheme for the Cathedral interior?
Praxiteles believes that there is sufficient provision for the conservation of heritage buildings such as Cobh Cathedral in the Planning and Development Act 2000. The problem is that those provisions are not being sufficiently implemented or implemented in a very half-hearted manner. In this respect, Local Authorities are largely to blame. As we saw in teh case of Cobh Town Council, its original grant of planning permission was of such a craven obsequiousness to placate the Cathedral Trustees as to cause the most potent medieval ecclesiastical princes to blush. Moreover, Cobh Town Council has done little or nothing about the maintenance issues despite being asked regularly at their monthly meetings for up dates on the situation: the answers given are usually “NOTHING”. Praxiteles believes thatt the appreciation and maintenance of a building such asCobh Cathedral is quite beyond the capacities and abilities not only of the Cathedral Restoration Committee but also of Cobh Town Council. The performance of the latter bears this out beyond reasonable doubt.
What we might need is an independent body or board to ensure that Local Authorities discharge the obligations of law imposed on them by teh Planning and Development Act and other relevant legislation.
@Rhabanus wrote:
Was it Albert Einstein who stated that it is the definition of insanity to keep doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results?
Perhaps the “Restoration” Committee is still giving the matter some thought. Rhabanus recalls the day when one crusty old teacher, appalled by the plangent claim of a student that he had “thought” his erroneous answer was correct, reminded the class that “Thought” once stuck a feather in the ground figuring that it would grow into a chicken.
Any donors out there ready to supply watering cans to the Committee?
Point well taken Rhabanus.
@johnglas wrote:
The danger now is that the deterioration and lack of remedial action will lead to such complicated problems that the existing committee will be overwhelmed and just retreat in panic.
I am afraid the Cobh Cathedral Restoration Committee has for quite a while been out of its depths and no longer knows what to do. Up to recently, they seem to have spent most of their energies bickering with the parish over responsibility for “maintenance” which they tried to shove over on the parish. However, for a long time the Committee could not see that the “maintenance” needing to be done had gone into the realm of “extraordinary maintenance” and had been brought on in severl instances precisely by the “restoratiuons” carried out by teh committee. For instance, while the original slates on the roof of the Cathedral had pulverised, at the same time, the roof was not leaking to the extent that the internal walls were becoming saturated – as is teh case since the new roof was installed. The drainage system into the platform on which the Cathedral is built did not in the past saturate – now it is saturated with serious problems dowm the road. The bickering over “restoration” and “maintenance” only came to an end last Christmas when sections from the South arcade collapsed causing Cobh Town Council to wrings its hands again and, despite its self, write to the Cathedral Trustees asking, apologetically, if they were thinking about having some intention-any for that matter- of doing something to “fix” the more obvious parts of the Cathedral that are crumbling.
@johnglas wrote:
Prax: the situation at Cobh is a national disgrace – clearly the local town council is incapable of exercising any oversight. I agree with ake that government money shouldn’t entirely be sniffed at, but the real key is strong local action based on agreed national guidelines. The danger now is that the deterioration and lack of remedial action will lead to such complicated problems that the existing committee will be overwhelmed and just retreat in panic.
On a purely architectural point: why does the arcade in Cobh continue across the transept arches? The whole point of a crossing in Gothic churches is to create a sense of great space and volume at the point just before entry to the sanctuary (that’s clumsily put, but you know what I mean). Here, the closing off of the transept arms will increase the longitudinal thrust of the building and eliminate any sense of the presence of the transepts, and destroy any feeling of being at the ‘fulcrum’ of the buiding immediately under the crossing. Any medieval precedents?That is one of the characteristic features of Cobh. The sanctuary is not at the crossing but rather in a terminating chancel which brings the whole longitunidal thrust to a climax.
This solution of crossed transept arches was used also in St. Peter and Paul’s in Cork and by a number of Ashlin’s pupils -including Hennessey at Cahrleville.
As for medieval precedents -of a longitudinal emphasis- Praxiteles believes that Pugin and Ashlin may well be quoting someting of the collegile at Mandes, not too far from Paris.
The powers are already in place in the Planning and Development Act 2000. Cobh Town Council clearly does not want to use them and is quite prepared to turn a blind eye while the place falls down.
Following the collapse of material last Christmas, a bleating statement was put out but nothing happened.
The Restoration Steering Committee is like a headless chicken running around NOT knowing what to do. One minuite they have plans. The next, they have not plans. The same Committee is hoping to carry out “restoration” work without an application for planning permission. They are hoping to do as much under delarations -and therefore away from the gaze of the public eye.
The FOSCC has brought considerable pressure to bear on the “Restoration” Committee. It has highlighted the extravagent spending of the Committee on professional fees not obviously connected with any restoration work. The FOSCC has loffered to assist the works that need to be carried out by offering the advice of their conservation experts before a planning application will eventually have to be made. The Restoration Committee does not want the FOSCC advice. So, the FOSCC will have no alternative except to make their expert advice available to the Town Council when it comes to deciding on what to do about Cobh Cathedral.
Meanwhile, the webpage of conservation consultants Southgate Consultants (based in Cork) tells us that they are excited to be involved with Cobh Cathedral – an excitement that may prove necessary to dampen down a bit.
At the end of the day, there is no trace of any move to do anything to Cobh Cathedral, almost three years after FOSCC first raised the subject.
An interesting book has been brought to Praxiteles attention: Modern Church Architecture by Dom E. Roulin, a monk of Ampleforth Abbey, published by Herder, St. Louis in 1947. It is atranslation of Roulin’s Nos Eglise published by Le thielleux, Paris,in 1939.
This book is a veritable treasure house and, already in 1947, Roulin was able to identify all of the principle problems thrown up for ecclesiastical architecture by the modern movement. His comments are not sparing.
Praxiteles hopes to scan some interesting comments from Roulin shortly.
Praxiteles is glad to report that Roulin mentions two items of modern church architecture in Ireland and gives his stamp of approval: the mmain door way of Christ the King, Turner’s Cross, Cork; and the famous wrought-iron grille that used to adorn the west door-way of the Honan Chapel. Has anyone seen that particular item recently?
That well illustartes the south arcade wall and the areas into which the water is pouring from the newly installed roof. The angel heads at the ceiling level are, in some instances, saturated and are falling off. Thanks for that Ake.
On baptismal fonts: someone has drawn my attention to the following and tells me that it is the baptismal font in Anchorage Cathedral!
It seems to have been made of poured plastic or fibreglass.
Forget the dead hand of government funding. It inevitably brings compromise to the objectives of any society and meddling of all sorts. It is much better to have heritage associations independently organised and funded. Ultimately, its the only way to advance a heritage agenda.
Hopefully Archiseek has done something to meet the first condition!
I think there is absolutely no doubt that the statement made by the “reordering” of Monaghan Cathedral in the 1970s was one of clear disjunction with everything that went before it. Apart from the demolition of the building, that statement could not have been more resounding [and in some cases de,olition was resorted to to emphasize the arrival of “modernity” e.g. the parish church in Dingle, Co. Kerry].
Now, however, the question is what is to be done to recover the historical interior of places such as Monaghan Cathedral?
The ceiling in Monaghan Cathedral is really stupendous. It must be the best featue of an excellent building, Shame on the Beotians who wrecked it and on Joe Duffy in particular with all his pro-Europan posturing when he really knows nothing.
A wise PP would always have built the spire first. Resources came more easily for the other parts of the church. Hence, those who built them last have been left with unfinished stumps.
I think I have mentioned before that of the work of the Gothic revival architects of the 19th. century, McCarthy’s has sustained the worst gutting of all. Just take for example St. Saviour’s, Monaghan Cathedral, Feenagh etc..
Johnglas!
Here are a few shots of Santa Maria della Salute. They still use the wall hangings to decorate the church at least for feasts.
The Salute without the hangings:
It would also be no harm were the present PP to take away the glass encasing the Pietà so as to allow the faithful the opportunity to “rub” the statue – the practice is universal in the Catholic world and this effort displays nothing more than a tidy mind syndrome.
@shaun wrote:
Here’s a few more photos of St.Agathas, someone has been taking really good care of this building inside and out, it has benifitted from constant maintanence and cleaning.
I read what C.Casey has to say about this church and I ask myself if she visited the place herself.
I wonder the same myself. She is just a little too quick to shoot from the hip! And cravenly abject in soothing the opinions of the “powers” that be. A pity.
