Praxiteles
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- October 30, 2008 at 2:11 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #772142
Praxiteles
Participant@apelles wrote:
Does anyone have a definitive compilation of the “emblems of the passion”? i’m having no luck sourceing these.
Cf. Hall’s Dictionary of Subjects and SYmbols in Art,
by James Hall, published by James Murray, London 1974
October 30, 2008 at 8:28 am in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #772140Praxiteles
ParticipantHere is a wonderful text written by the 9th century Irish monk Dongal at the instigation of the Emperor Louis the Pious against the iconoclast tendenceies of Clodius, Bishop of Turin. As it turns out, our friend Dungal is one of the very few Western iconodules and his text is one of the most important to have survived. He bequeathed his library of some 70 books (which included the Antiphonary of Bangor currently in the Biblioteca Ambrosiana in Milan) to the Abbey of Bobbio which was founded by San COlombanus.
It would behove the members of the Cloyne HACK to study this text very carefully. Indeed, with a luttle luck, Cobh Urban Council might be able to arrange fro someone from their adult literacy programme to help thiem in the task.
October 29, 2008 at 9:39 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #772139Praxiteles
ParticipantPraxiteles is delighted to see that Dr. Thomas Brennan is a Founder Member of the European Dry Rot Research Association. Indeed, Praxiteles suspects that since his coming into contact with the Cloyne HACK, he will have ample research opportunities to discover where or how the dry rot set in with that particular body. We can probably suspect that it started with the wets on it.
October 29, 2008 at 9:36 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #772138Praxiteles
ParticipantAnd here we have next round of people to “assist” the Cloyne HACK with Cobh Cathedral.

Dr. Thomas Brennan, Ph.D, BSc. Building Surveying, CRST, ISBE
Managing DirectorThomas, the founder of TKB, has devoted the greater part of his life to developing and researching methods of non-destructive treatment and protection of historic buildings and family homes – (Thomas pioneered several non intrusive exploratory techniques which has greatly reduced damage and costs normally associated with general inspection methods). He has completed the Foundation Civil and Commercial Mediation Training Programme.
Thomas is actively involved in many European research projects including: European Research on Cultural Heritage, Histoclean and the ARCCHIP Programme funded by the European Parliament. He is the Chairman of the Irish Damp Proofing Association, Founder Member of the European Dry Rot Research Association and the Irish Director of the International Society for the Built Environment. He has lectured in Trinity, UCC, RICS, Dublin Chamber of Commerce, Bolton Street College, Chief City Architects and Associates of Dublin City Corporation, UCD and at other European Conferences. With a Doctorate in Conservation, Thomas has won the Conservation Award of Excellence and numerous awards for his work such as on the Old County Hospital Portlaois, Farmleigh House and 25 Eustace Street, Dublin.

Chris Southgate, MA FIEI MIStructE., Chartered Engineer
DirectorChris is the Founder of Chris Southgate & Associates (CHSA), the first engineering practice in Ireland to specialise in Historic Buildings. He studied Engineering at Cambridge and is a Fellow of the Institution of Engineers of Ireland and a Member of the Institute of Structural Engineers.
His early work consisted of taking on some of Ireland’s most dangerous buildings. A particular example is a project in Fenns Quay, Cork, where one engineer described any attempt to conserve the buildings would result in their immediate collapse. As a result of his conservation experience, the project later went on to win a Europa Nostra Award and the FTPI Silver Jubilee Award. He has sat on the Committee of the Dublin Civic Trust Technical Guidance Manual and wrote the chapter on structural conservation. He was also structural engineer for the Connemara West Centre which won the RIAI Bronze Medal award.
Apart from his conservation engineering experience, he also set up a company to specialise in all aspects of technical conservation of historic buildings where expertise ranges not only to the structure of the building but to stone decay, and other technical conservation issues in relation to the fabric of historic buildings. As such the practice developed a reputation for tackling all technical issues in relation to historic buildings. Chris was also instrumental in initiating conservation strategy advice for planning purposes and acted as planning consultant for some of Corks’ largest construction projects.
Chris Southgate is a regular lecturer on the conservation of historic building structures, understanding their deterioration and methodologies for conservative repair. He has lectured in UCD and in numerous conservation organisations such as the Dublin Civic Trust, The Irish Georgian Society and the Ulster Local Heritage Trust and The Historic Buildings of Ireland Conference. He has won a CIF Award for 25 Eustace Street Dublin.
October 29, 2008 at 9:33 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #772137Praxiteles
ParticipantThis is what the “news” section of TKB-Southgate webpage has to say:
“TKB-Southgate Associates work on historic Neo-Gothic Cathedral, Cork
St. Coleman’s Cathedral, Cobh, Cork is a landmark neo-gothic building in the early French Decorated Gothic style overlooking Cork harbour. Described as the most ambitious and costly ecclesiastical building of the Victorian era. Began in 1868 it was the work of E.W. Pugin, G. Ashilin and T. Coleman and was not completed until 1915. It is the Roman Catholic Cathedral for the Diocese of Cloyne. TKB Southgate Associates are involved in the conservation of the building from mosaic restoration to addressing falling damp issues.”
The final sentence is rather criptic and we are not told much as what the involvement consists of. As for the falling dampness problem, well we suppose that refers to the fact the present new roof is quite porous and pretty soon umbrellas will be needed to to visit the interior on a wet day – and probably also hard hats as a precautuoon against collapsing masonry.
October 29, 2008 at 9:27 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #772136Praxiteles
ParticipantWord has it that the Cloyne HACK, after almost three years of “deliberation” and a full year since the collapse of part of the south arcade, will present Cobh Urban Disctrict Council with its plans and proposals for the “restoration” of the mosaic floors and west screens of Cobh Cathedral. This is clearly going to be a very interesting process and one, no doubt, guided by the great hope of carrying out all of this work without planning permission or declarations of exemption. Just watch this spot for further developments.
Interesting, the Southgate who is doing this appears to be an engineer rather than an architect – that will be interesting as far as design concernes are concerned.
October 28, 2008 at 4:54 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #772135Praxiteles
ParticipantSome further photographs of Old St. Patrick’s in Kansas City:
October 27, 2008 at 10:24 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #772134Praxiteles
ParticipantON the question of the tracing of the alphabet on the floors of churches to be consecrated, Ildefonso Schuster, in his Liber Sacrementorum points out that this practice was in fact unknown to the primitive consecratory rites of the Roman Church and not used in Rome or in the Roman Province.
Rather, he shows that this specific practice deives from Gallican usage which by the 8 or 9 century had become merged with the rites of the Roman church to form the dedicatory ceremonies used for new churches up the the 1970s – and used again in the case of old ST Patrick’s in Kansas City. One of the earliest sources for the practice is a commentary on the dedication of a church attributed to Remigius of Auxerre and dates from the 9 century. The practice described there is confirmed in the Ordo of Verona, in the Sacramentaries of Angouleme and Gellone and in the Missale Francorum.
In the Romena practice, the idea prevailed that the sanctity of a church derived from the divine sacrifice offreed therein. However, some preparatory sanctification preceded that: usually the deposition of the relics of the martyrs, the erection of a new martyr’s tomb or of an altar.
The idea of the taking of possession of ground by spreading a decussated “X” had its origins in Roman surveyors and Aurgerers who fixed boundaries by spreading an “X” over it and marking it with letters. In the case of ground to be used for a Temple, the aurgur fixed its boundaries with a decussatedb”X” marked with letters.
When the practice was christianised, the “X” came to represent the monogram of Christ, on which were fixed the Greek letters Alpha and Omega – the apocalyptical letters of the Book of Revelations. In the course of time, the full Greek alphaet was spelled out, and joined to it the letter of the Latin Alphabet – or sometimes the Hebrew one. While the Bishop traces the letters on the floor of the church, the choir sings Fundamentum aliud nemo potest ponere praeter illud denique quod positum est a Christo Domino – no other foundation can be laid except that laid by Christ the Lord. Tracing the monogram of Christ on the floor of the new church is the equivelant of impressing the name of Christ on the floor of the church to sanctify the foundation stone of the building.
Following this part of the rite, the Bishop sprinkles the walls with Holy Water and read the prayer: Fundamenta templi hujus sapentiae suae fndavit Deus, in quo,…si ruant venti et pluant flumina, non possunt ea movere umquam, fundata enim erat super petram..” – the foundation of this temple God has set in his wisdom and should the winds rage or the waters pour down, they shall never move them, for they are founded on rock – the antiphon composed for the consecration of Justinian’s Santa Sophia!
It may also be worth noting that the inlaid marble floors of many continental churches retain the decussis in their design with “X” patterns spreading diagonally from one side to the other.
October 27, 2008 at 6:28 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #772133Praxiteles
ParticipantAnd here is a photograph of Southark Cathedral redied for consecration.

The is a similar photograph of the interior of Cobh Cathedral in the Browne Collection showing the interior of the Cathedral on the night before its consecration in 1919.
October 27, 2008 at 11:32 am in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #772132Praxiteles
ParticipantOn the consecration of old St Patrick’s in Kansas City, here is a diagram of the manner in which the taking of possession is done:
As for the meaning of this, the Catholic Encyclopedia suggests the following:
The “Liber Sacramentorum” of St. Gregory I and the “Pontifical” of Egbert, Archbishop of York, attest the antiquity of this ceremony, which symbolized the instruction given to the newly baptized in the elements of faith and piety. The crossing of the two lines points to the cross, that is Christ crucified, as the principal dogma of the Christian religion. The Greek and Latin languages represent the Jews and Gentiles respectively. The Greek alphabet is written first because the Jews were first called to the Christian Faith.
October 26, 2008 at 11:07 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #772131Praxiteles
ParticipantNow, here we have the latest (2008) line-out of the Art and Architecture Advisory Committee of the Liturgical Commission of the Irish Episcopal Conference [so we are at three removes from the Irish Episcopal Conference and God nly knows how many from reality]
Advisory Committee on Sacred Art and Architecture
Mr Alexander White (chairperson), Monkstown, Cork
Fr Patrick Jones (secretary), National Centre for Liturgy, Maynooth
Mr Kevin Clancy, Ennis Road, Limerick
*Ms Cliodhna Cussen, Bóthar Bhinn Eadán, Baile Ãtha Cliath 13
Mr Tom Glendon, Ballybrack, Co. Dublin
*Fr Michael Gilroy, Inver, Barnatra,, Co. Mayo
Fr Hugh Kennedy, St Peter’s Cathedral, Belfast
*Mr John Lynch, Donoughmore, Co. Cork
Mr Paul O’Daly, Dun Laoghaire, Co. Dublin
Dr Jacinta Prunty, CHF, Dept. of History, NUIM
Mr Brian Quinn, Belfast
October 26, 2008 at 11:00 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #772130Praxiteles
ParticipantAnd a new church project by Schloeder, this time in the Byzantine style:
October 26, 2008 at 10:50 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #772129Praxiteles
ParticipantAnd here we have a Schloeder re-reordering at St. Mark’s in Peoria where the 1970s hooror drome was removed and a more Catholic interior supplied.
http://www.liturgicalenvirons.com/pdf/StMarkPeoria_ProjectSheet.pdf
October 26, 2008 at 10:43 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #772128Praxiteles
ParticipantAnd here we have Schloeder on Sacramental architecture:
October 26, 2008 at 10:38 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #772127Praxiteles
ParticipantAnd here we have Schloeder again with a rather good description of what has happened to church architecture under the aegis of people like Vosko and Seasoltz – come to think of it, it might have been a good idea had Cork County Council read this article before sponsoring its Ballincollig quango earlier last month wchih allowed the Cloyne HACK to propogate views of church architecture which, at this point, are as fossilized as the diansours promoting them:
http://www.liturgicalenvirons.com/pdf/3c_SacramentalArchitectureFaithAndFormNov03.pdf
October 26, 2008 at 10:29 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #772126Praxiteles
ParticipantAnd Schloeder again. This tme on the return to a humane architecture:
http://www.liturgicalenvirons.com/pdf/3e_HumaneArchitecture1998.pdf
October 26, 2008 at 10:22 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #772125Praxiteles
ParticipantSome more from Stephen Schloeder on the revision of the American Bishops COnference Document on church architecture, pubklished in 1978 and still used by the Irish “liturgical” establishment:
http://www.liturgicalenvirons.com/pdf/3g_BackToTheDrawingBoard.pdf
October 26, 2008 at 10:16 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #772124Praxiteles
ParticipantSome more on what happened to Church architecture:
Stephen Schloeder on the subject
http://www.liturgicalenvirons.com/pdf/3b_SecondSpring1995.pdf
October 26, 2008 at 8:21 am in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #772123Praxiteles
ParticipantSome more pictures from the consecration of old St. Patrick’s in Kansas City.
For the interest of our liturgical friends, it should be noted that the church was consecrated according to the old Roman Pontifical:
The arrival of the consecrating Bishop:

Two intersecting lines of sand are laid out on the floor. Usually, these should extend from corner to corner in the church.

The Bishop traces the letters of the Latin alphabet on one line and those of the Greek alphabet on the other with the crozier: This action is derived from classical Roman law governing the the taking of possession of land and symbolizing here that the church has been claimed for God.


The relics for the High Altar are borne in:

The walls are anointed chrism in 12 places to symbolize that the Church rests on the witness of the 12 Apostles:

The places of consecration are marked by 12 red corsses inserted in the wall and before which are placed candle holders for candles which are lit on the anniversary of the dedication.

The departure of the consecrating Bishop:
October 25, 2008 at 11:43 pm in reply to: reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches #772122Praxiteles
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