MT
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Another point I should add is the removal or replacement of public structures that have fallen into disrepair or have been vandalised. This IMO is a real problem down south.
Picture the scene, you’re in a public area where there are three posts that presumably once displayed signs. Then there are a number of stumps that may once have held seats. All have been graffitied and the older ‘stumps’ have their last coat of paint peeling from them. Nearby, in the uncut grass there’s a council ‘no dumping’ sign that someone’s pull off and thrown away for a laugh – showing that the council clearly never check to see if any dumping has taken place. Add to this the favourite down there – a row of concrete bollards with the last remnants of paint still clinging to them and the odd one knocked over and another replaced with a more ‘recent’ version that doesn’t in anyway match. Finally, surrounding this benchmark of public spaces – no that’s not a bench that has been pulled off and gouged – is a fence that’s overgrown with briars and where it does protrude is both long since rotten with planks snapped from people clambering over/through it.
The above describes more or less a public area I recently experienced in the Republic. Suffice to say, the collection of what remained of public structures resembled little more than pieces of junk themselves. Accordingly, it appears that when presented with a public space that looked like an unkempt assortment of rubbish, people used it as a dump. There was dog shit everywhere and plastic packaging etc. stuffed into every crack and crevice you could find. Not a pleasant sight.
If a public are looks like a dump, smells like a dump and already contains enough council ‘junk’ and more conventional rubbish to pass as a dump, it’ll be treated as a dump.
Then again, considering a clearly embarrassed local had had the gumption to remove the sign indicating this area from its pole, no one will find it with any luck. Er, well not the council anyway.
Dare I say it, but there was once a very nasty and typically Unionist joke up here, along the lines of ‘Keep Northern Ireland tidy, throw your rubbish in the Republic’. To which one wag repplied, ‘but would they even notice’. Of course, such remarks say more about the unappealing nature of the North than anywhere else, but there is surely a grain of truth about the amount of litter down south.
Should add that I think Crestfield is onto something. Areas that are uncared for do seem to accumulate much more litter. But I’d go further than just keeping an area clean to discourage littering – the finish of the streetscape is also important. Areas that have upgraded in recent years through urban renewal schemes tend to stay much cleaner in my view. Where footpaths are well finished, roads keep in good nick and lighting and other street furniture constructed to a durable and tidy standard people seem to acknowledge the end product by littering less. On the other hand, where you have chipped and cracked up concrete paths, leaning lamp posts with peeling paint, potholed streets with worn off road markings and shoddy disintegrating public structures people tend to treat the area as the authorities have.
I think a lot of our behaviour is dictated by the environment we inhabit. Clean, properly finished and well maintained streetscapes provide a subtle deterrent to anti-social behaviour like littering. In contrast, leave streets looking chaotic shoddy and poorly maintained and you’ll encourage similar behaviour on the part of those using it.
Swedes don’t litter in part because their built environment is so well finished and maintained. Whereas in Ireland the cracked concrete paths, bent and leaning road signs and lopsided traffic and street lights hardly set a good example to the populace. If country roads are potholed, have overgrown and unkempt verges, churned up tire tracks in the ditch with a plethora of buckled leaning road signs never mind rows of Pisa like telegraph poles smothered in ivy – all depressingly common features of southern roads – how do you expect people to behave?
The built environment must set an example.
I’m from the North and have noticed the litter problem down south. Unfortunately, it’s one of the things that sticks in the minds of people up here where the Republic is concerned – litter and dog shit.
I’d have to disagree with the poster above, there seems to be dog sheet all over the place down there. Is it ever cleared up? I was at a beach down there the other day and the smell from the public access path was atrocious. Is there a conspiracy on the part of packs of stray dogs to target bomb lay-bys, footpaths and other public spaces? But seriously, the impression left by litter and the smell of dog shit in the summer months must be nothing other than negative in the eyes of tourists in the summer months. Ireland needs more civic pride and less tolerance of what sadly must rank as some of the dirtiest public spaces in Western Europe.
Maybe the solution to the smell of dog shit is a tax cut – on pooper scoopers!!
It may have little to do with good design/architecture but instead the owners desire to have an eyecatching feature out front. Unfortunately, this approach usually results in a street littered with visual monstrosities.
Speaking of visual monstrosities, does anyone feel there’s an area in Dublin that might be set aside for the type of large scale electronic advertising you find in Picadilly Circus and Time sq. Just a one off as a unique feature in the cityscape.
Graham,
On thing I’d be reluctant to let go is our stripey poles – leave them alone MT, they’re part of who we are!
Fair enough, they may not be my cup of tea but who am I to argue with culture. 😉 My main problem is if stripey polls are indeed part of traffic policy down there why are they erected so erratically. Take the new speed limit signs – sometimes they appear on zebra poles, other times they don’t. The resulting visual impact is an inconsistent mess; either they should be used across the board or not at all. If Irish culture was as elusive as stipey poles in the Irish countryside then James Joyce would most likely have published only every fourth chapter of Ulysees.
On a related point, if a driver collides with a sign post can they claim damages from the council if the pole wasn’t striped? Are unpainted poles in breach of safety regulations? (Hope no one feels sripey pole discussions are too highbrow for this board)
Other comments on the new speed limits:
The designers have failed to compensate for the increased amount of info on the new signs. Not only do they now contain km/h but in many cases carry an extra digit (eg. 100 instead of 60). The result is a shrunken/thinner typeface that is difficult to read. This problem could have been avoided by placing km/h on a separate sign beneath – easily removed when the system bedded in – or simply larger circular plates. This visual failing is all the more unfortunate for the fact that with the standard national speed limit replaced with ones that are road specific reading the signs has become essential where previously 60mph could have been assumed.
The vast majority of the larger initial signs signalling a new speed zone have again been placed on only one pole. When these signs are inevitably knocked or lean over they’ll be much harder to read – especially if it’s a hedge they’re leaning into.
A worrying number have been placed too close to the edge of traffic lanes. Standing in these spots many will be knocked into smithereens.
Lighting. Could 60 km/h limits at the edge of urban areas not have been lit at the very least? At night, with the smaller typeface, these signs will be very hard to read unlit.
Karen,
Urban battlements
crazy military building in every town with turrets and razor wire (turns out to be police stations)Yeah, as well as the lower standard of architecture up here we also have to contend with the legacies of the troubles. There’s no doubt the south clearly leads the way where architectural design – both quality and quantity – are concerned.
neater
Everything is tidier – even the people were better groomed and more neatly dressedI really couldn’t comment on how people dress but there is IMO some truth in the impression with regard to urban development at street level. Thing is, I’m not sure why this difference exists, any thoughts? But it does seem to be the case – whether it be dilapidated signs, leaning street lights, pavement maintenance etc. there does seem to be a more lax approach down there. In my view this is a bit of a pity as I feel that a dilapidated streetscape detracts from the often high standard of building design it frames. Should add here that both NI and the Republic are left trailing by the quality of architecture and streetscapes in many European countries. Having said that, if you could combine the qualities of both respective regions in Ireland you’d have a big improvement all round. I’m a believer in the idea that a high standard of urban design and maintenance – whether it’s street furniture or 20 story buildings – contributes greatly to civic pride with all the attendant benefits such as communal confidence that generates.
In respect of maintenance, here’s a specific point: Donegal Sq. and St. Stephens green. Both of the extensive footpaths around these where not that long ago repaved with granite flags stones. However, the surfaces of the latter have long since lost their attractive appearance through not being cleaned regularly, if at all. This is a great shame as they now look little better than your average concrete slabs. Why the disparity – surely DCC has more money at its disposal for maintenance than BCC. I mean, why expend all that public money in the first place if after a few years you allow the granite pavement to deteriorate to the appearance of a regular city footpath.
I agree, Niall. Yes, local authorities should be stripped of their road management responsibilities. They’ve had their chance and have proven themselves woefully inadequate. A centralised approach involving one gov. department and agency seems to be the best alternative.
At present 31 local authorities, are responsible for driving tests in their own area.
Thats surprising. Although there are a number of agencies responsible for driving tests in the UK – mind nowhere near 31 – as far as I’m aware there is only one universal test with no variation in assessment standards.
Hi Graham
It’s a totally different culture – although one must accept that Britain is of course a much more developed nation.
I often think the differences on both counts are overstated. While I agree levels of maintenance are lower in the Republic this may have more to do with small inefficient councils (many British councils having populations equivalent to the entire south) than any increased laxity in attitude. As I said in previous posts the Northern Ireland route may be the approach to follow in solving this problem – complete centralisation.
Having said all this, and getting back to an architectural/engineering theme, I think poor maintenance can be overstated as the cause of the Republic’s shoddy and patchy signage. Afterall, if a junction has no signs to begin with maintenance isn’t the issue. Instead, I’d argue that the main cause of the south’s signage appearing as if a hurricane had just blown through is its poor quality/construction to begin with. The signs just aren’t built to last.
The sheeting/plates that the signs consist of is thin and flimsy. Far too often signs are placed on one pole and not two, allowing them to be knocked around by passing traffic etc. As for foundations, is any standard amount of concrete adhered to? Clearly not often enough, as about every second or third sign in the Republic leans over – far too many for the cause to be driver collisions. By simply avoiding these flaws up here and in Britain signs require little to no maintenance in the first place, remaining in good standard for years.
Take traffic lights. In Northern Ireland it is extremely rare to find any that lean over. Yet, in Dublin alone a huge number have slowly but surely developed a lean in one direction or another. Not enough to suggest vehicular collisions but rather that foundations have been skimped on. Were they erected properly in the first there’d be no need to straighten/maintain them when they eventually lean too far. Finally, it goes without saying that when a sign does have a run in with a motorist the more robust the construction the better it’s chances of remaining in reasonable nick.
To illustrate this point an interesting experiment could be conducted. Take two similar Irish towns in the same county and replace all the signage/signals in one with their UK equivalents. Construct them to UK standards and then suspend all maintenance. Come back in five years and I think you’d notice a considerable difference in signage ‘depreciation’ from one town to the other. Alright, this will never happen but it’s a curious idea all the same.
My god, what a long-winded post. If your still awake, my apologies. I just feel that dilapidated and shoddy streetscapes – of which signage plays a big part – detract so much from the architecture in their midst. Should add too that the UK isn’t necessarily the best place for Ireland to learn from, just the one I’m most familiar with.
Hi Niall,
How exactly is administration for the roads network organised in the Republic? Would I be right in thinking that national routes – including motorways – come under the control of the Department of Transport and the National Roads Authority?
If county councils and the Department of the Environment are failing in their remit maybe a start would be to transfer their responsibilities to the DoT/NRA. It would also seem logical to have one authority with sole responsibility for the road network. Think of the cost savings and improvements in efficiency etc. Surely common sense alone dictates that there’s something wrong when the lions share of the road transport system isn’t managed by the Department of Transport.
I’m no fan of centralisation but when county councils are clearly failing in their duties then there should be a change. The somewhat better performing NRA could hardly do a worse job.
I should add at this point that I’m in no way claiming that signage up here is perfect – indeed it’s anything but. However, it’s not bad by international standards. The problem down south is that signage is often woeful, arguably the worst I’ve encountered having driven quite a bit across the UK/Europe. So clearly something is very wrong.
