GrahamH
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A nice idea, but considering you couldn’t put trees in to soften the space, or indeed anything that would impinge on the pristine view of the Custom House, would it end up being rather harsh and windswept? One can already see that effect on the existing wide pavement on the river side – clearly the CC don’t know what to do with it so it’s been left empty save the benches.
And just on these – does anyone else think the benches are facing the wrong way round?! It seems nothing short of criminal that one is forced to face the flippin Ulster Bank of all structures in favour of one of the finest neoclassical buildings in Europe!
I’ve sat there once or twice only having to position myself in such a fashion as to make the experience one not worthy of repeating 🙁A solution that would allow the best of both worlds – an appreciation of the river and the CH – could be to place the benches/seats facing each other in pairs, allowing groups of drunks, I mean tourists to face each other in comfort 🙂
Putting them up against the quay wall could prove a very pleasant location for a sit-down – not exposed and away from the trucks.Wasn’t being ironic about the Matt Talbot Kefu – I think it’s one of the nicest bridges on the Liffey, simple, streamlined and elegant (save the railings and surface of course), and dare I say nicer than the James Joyce which frankly I think just looks ridiculous in scale, in that location, and is totally impractical for pedestrians when wet – something I don’t think has been mentioned.
Don’t they – very Gardineresque too…
Well putting railings up aren’t going to stop such ‘activities’ either! :). Are you sure this was a public exhibition TP?!!
I have a funny Iveagh Gardens story but I won’t go into details – only to say that this involved um – ‘lady friends’ – yes, that’ll do…It would be nice to have the whole ensemble restored if it looked right in the modern context – still a bit wary about having so much replica stuff about, but if the whole was to be restored it certainly would be above your average pastiche debate – this is a monument to a national figure here which ought to be restored to its orginal state – there is a moral element here moreso than other situations.
I have never been able to understand why these railings were removed at such a late statge – what the heck were the Corporation thinking?! Their removal had absolutely no purpose save having to paint them every five years and the effort of scooping out the odd piece of litter (which was only to be replaced with another problem) – really a disgraceful move.1897 to be precise – sheesh, you mean you can’t even tell from the cut of their coat tails TP?! 🙂
The railings had quite a long life – as you say they’re here in c1900, and are probably earlier: so they went in not too long after completion in 1882, and lasted up till 1980 or so.
Absolutely – which is why as said before it’s such a crying shame the (nonetheless great) Matt Talbot doesn’t open to allow the Tall Ships in front of the Custom House – still an aim I think is worthy of pursuing somehow, albeit an expensive project for an annual photogenic scene.
Agreed about reserving full judgement of the new bridge till finished and everything being removed……(no – not including the bridge itself :))
Scandalously very recently – not in the depths of the dark 60s as one might expect, but in the heritage decade itself – at least 1980, if not later: possibly when the median was unified in the latter part of the decade.
It would be a scandal indeed if they disappeared as part of the heritage-fuelled Millenium project for the street – saying that there’s little point in jumping to conclusions, and as I’ve no photographic evidence the assertion ought not be pressed.
If anyone has pictures from dates in the 80s that would be great.Good point about the question of reinserting the railings; they were a highly attractive piece of street furniture:
To be honest I think it looks better without them, though saying that – only in the case of the deserted street of old where the steps majestically rise out of the ground. In the modern context they could look very well ‘protecting’ the monument from the traffic and all that’s going on around – also the Monument at the moment has a big problem with being constantly soiled with all types of matter, a lot unmentionable – no doubt why the railings went up in the first instance.
All considering, I’d probably go for no railings today, as the monument I think can be said looks at least equally well without them as with them. Considering they weren’t totally orginal to the structure, and in an effort to reduce the replica burden on the monument where something isn’t totally necessary, I think it’d be best that they be left as yet another piece of lost street furniture.
Though again, considering it was the 80s, it’s very likely they’re still kicking around somewhere…
@Devin wrote:
I would rather see the existing [Green] ‘60s/’70s curving lamps left – they have an attractive simplicity about them….I just can’t take any more fussy historic reproduction in the city!!
That’s the problem I think with all this cheap repro stuff, it makes you sick of the concept full stop! I see what you mean about the curving posts on the Green, they have a certain retro feel to them too :), but in their current context of adorning multiple lanes of traffic I think they look just as they are, basic 70s functional stock shoved in for the practical reason of lighting a virtual motorway surrounding the Green – i.e. awful.
The trademark columns installed here would link in with the two other squares next door, and all surrounding Georgian streets – they’d also unify the sqaure which is increasing falling apart into an incoherent mess 🙁That’s extraordinary that the planning section of the CC aren’t involved in post selection or preservation – no wonder such inappropriate schemes like the Summerhill farce are as they are.
I think of the stout, plinth-like based one as the ‘male’, and the tapered-base one with stud detailing & shamrock in the centre of the head as more ‘feminine’.
I’ve often thought of these like that too! – even if I’ve always preferred the former :o, they’re more rooted in classical design and are more solid looking…
You’re right about the ones outside the Custom House – and there used to be similar Stephen’s Green-like posts here too in the 70s – along with the containers and all the rest of it.The more I think about the c1937 lampposts, the more utterly ridiculous it is that they have/are being removed. Think of surrounding streets – Westmoreland St, Dame St, College Green – none have any posts at all, yet the very place where there was some, and original pieces of period street furniture at that, they were removed and replaced with expensive new posts! It’s just ridiculous!
I saw with interest Devin in your City Hall post that the archies are still visible marching down the street – the axe just about to fall on them in the coming months after the pic being taken…
That last picture posted there is interesting – I have a picture of a startling similar warehouse location from the 70s with unusual posts – must post it soon.
I would have to agree – saw it briefly yesterday and just as in JJ’s pictures unfortunately ugly is a fitting description.
Essentially it looks like a temporary military contraption for accommodating the passage of troops. The gun metal finish not only contributes to this, but as mentioned it looks decidedly drab and dull – and this in blazing sunshine yesterday; one can only imagine its appearance on a cloudy dead day.
Perhaps the grace of the structure, if any, will become apparent upon the removal of the construction devices, but thus far I think it is disappointing.
Agreed with jimg though that the curved span is attractive.These navigation guides really are a blast of new air to me – how come you don’t see them pretty much anywhere else, or are the world’s rivers just photographed on high tides and have a touch of the old airbrush?!
Never even seen a scheme like Gateshead there either!I think a contemporary interpretation of the posts would be inappropriate – already there is too much clutter; at least if the original designs were reinserted they would clearly demarcate themselves from the rest of the post-mania behind; the eye associating them with the Monument rather than the street at large.
Though I must admit there is something a little strange about putting in replica posts, i.e. the fact that these would be as new as the contemporary ones going in a few metres away!
They were very much so an integral part of the monument’s design orginally, they were the exact height of the lower third of the structure, being capped off just as the second third begins really establishing it into the street. But nowadays would it be inappropriate to have such dominant features of the streetscape as replicas?
Then again, if the statue of O’Connell or any of its other fatures for whatever reason disappeared or got damaged over the years it would be replaced without hesitation as part of the IAP/HARP projects…Unfortunately either way, as things stand there is simple no space for them to go in – they’d complelely block the narrow pieces of pavement either side of the monument.
It is a pity that despite all of the progress that is happening on the street, presumably what was the very cause of the posts’ removal in the first place is still preventing them from going back – traffic.That is one comprehensive listing of locations 🙂
Agreed about the flimsy thin modern repros, they look tacky and are so obviously cheap imitations. If anything, rather than their high level of detailing by contemporary standards contributing to the streetscape in favour of supposedly inadequate modern design, they actually do the opposite, demonstrating even more-so how badly we treat lamp post design today and how incompetent we an be.
Look at these on the quays as mentioned: their proportions are so off the scale that they actually make Zoe’s scheme behind look like high art 🙂
Agreed about not using the quality posts willy nilly, but I think that it is a worthy idea to broadly unify the city centre’s lighting where appropriate with quality – not going to say replica cause they’re more than that – silver columns.
Patrick Street as you mention Devin is the very street I was thinking of before and I think they look magnificent – including at night. Their quality design, fine proportions, regularly spaced placing and high level of light emitted make these one of the finest use of such posts, and make for a fitting contribution to the environment of Christchurch, St Patrick’s and the Iveagh Buildings.Which is why I’d also support their insertion on St. Stephen’s Green, a place where their impact would be magnificent and would tie in with all surrounding streets’ similar original posts, not to mention their suitability to the largely historic environment of course
Saying that, the use of them (the poor imitation ones) on Camden St, Aungier St etc is one step too far – the CC are using the excuse of unifying the city too much here – it just smacks of not being bothered to come up with some decent contemporary design, likewise with the many other secondary places that Devin mentions.Speaking of replicas – this page is rather ironic 😀
http://www.irisheyes.org/dlamp.html
There are also two types of the original, one with the classic plinth-like base, the other a probably later slightly tapered base with stud detailing around the top, as used outside the Custom House, think they’re the one’s used outside the Four Courts as mentioned (always been impressed with how the CC managed to position the posts dead centred on the Custom House & Four Courts without disrupting the overall quay placing :)), and in use all over the south city but painted green such as on Palmerston Road. They’re also used on Merrion St, but the heads don’t appear to be original and are too small for the proportions of the posts.
Here’s a magnificent image of the Baggot St repros as taken by a Marko Krivograd:
1975-78
This period ushered in a dark period, quite literally, for the city centre’s street lighting.
All of the grand concrete posts on O’Connell Street were removed, along with those on Westmoreland St, College Green and possibly Dame St. The only ones to survive were those of O’Connell Bridge, D’Olier St and College St – about 17 in all.
They were replaced with double and single floodlights mounted on the city’s buildings directed down onto the streets. Unfortunately for O’Connell St they merely contributed to the flashy tacky nature of the place, and eroded the linear nature of the street, so expertly generated by the previous posts:
In around 1980 the two northern concrete posts on O’Connell Bridge also disappeared, to be eventually replaced with nothing but tall motorway-like posts with about 3 lamps attached way above at the top.
1987-88
As part of the city’s ‘Millennium’ celebrations, O’Connell St finally got a bit of care and attention – albeit superficial – with the unification of the median space and the erection of heritage-style three-arm lampposts: their bases and shafts replicating the city’s Victorian stock:
Of their time, but effective and attractive – they provided pools of light amongst the foliage of the great plane trees, made the median feel more secure at night and looked well in their own right during the day. Only a handful now remain on the upper end of the street, and are about to be removed.
1998-2003
This period saw positive and perhaps negative things happen on O’Connell Bridge.
In an inspired move by Dublin City Council all of the lamps on the bridge were restored to their original glory, if not better with the parapets back to three arms and the medians back to their five armed splendour – the first restored precisely 80 years after they were altered.
(1st pic Archiseek)The copper heads of the lanterns could be a new feature as in black and white pictures they always seem to be have been black. The material’s presence on Grattan Bridge too now would suggest it to be a contemporary modification.
However the last of the concrete posts on the bridge were removed from the southern end in around 1999 – an appropriate move given the works on the bridge lanterns and their fitting out with bright white bulbs, but marking the end of an era. The subsequent piece-meal removal of some of the remaining posts on D’Olier St and College St should not have/be happened/ing.
2004+
We’re now seeing the execution of the first unified lighting scheme involving posts on O’Connell Street in nearly 70 years – including the median, side pavements and plaza.
Whatever one may think of the new scheme, it is welcome to see lampposts once again regaining a central role (perhaps too literally :)) in the public domain of the country’s main street.Just a note on the dates stated – where hyphenated this refers to the approximate period in which the posts were erected/removed rather than the length of time the process took. In most, if not all cases, schemes would have been executed inside a few days or weeks.
1936-39
Huge change is ushered in with this period with a vast amount of lamppost up-rooting on O’Connell St and the city centre overall. It saw the installation of the city’s trademark brown, arched, double-headed aggregate concrete lampposts along many major streets including O’Connell St, O’Connell Bridge, Westmoreland St, D’Olier St, College St, College Green and possibly Dame St and Parnell Square – at least 70 posts.A total of approximately 32 posts went up on O’Connell St, exclusively along the side pavements resulting in a magnificent marching procession of posts far into the distance along the thoroughfare. As with by now established tradition, four models were also installed on O’Connell Bridge (though in a slightly different position than previously), as well as four mini-lamps on the corners of the plinth of Nelson’s Pillar:
Art Deco in design, these posts featured a large tapered concrete base which was stepped at the top, a tall hexagonal concrete shaft, and were topped with two half-arches with attractive ridged detailing, from each were suspended a charming copper-roofed lamp comprised of a delicate metal frame fitted with frosted glass:
They proved especially effective in lighting the streets, casting light both downwards and outwards.
Considering they went up just before the War, I wonder why concrete was used as presumably metal shortages hadn’t kicked in yet?…
Concrete posts of a different style also went up on the quays and all over the city subsequently.1961-66
During this period rather crude utilitarian posts of the kind seen in older shopping centre car parks went up along the disjointed median space of O’Connell St, presumably to light what had itself largely become a car park by this stage.
These survived until around 1980, if not until 1988:
1903-10
Sometime during this period these relatively young electric lampposts were removed, probably due their antiquated technology. It’s possible it happened in 1903 as this is the year the Fleet St station shut down in favour of the Pigeon House.
Arguably O’Connell Street’s finest period in lighting then commenced with the erection of around 30 decorative posts in a symmetrical fashion the whole way down the street.Perhaps the most commonly known of O’Connell Street’s lampposts due to their similarity to the more common Victorian wrought/cast-iron headed versions around Dublin, these new posts were a little smaller in height and featured swan-neck heads. The film Michael Collins probably makes these recognisable to most people as they featured extensively, especially their large and cumbersome fittings, upon the ends of which the glass globes were attached. They also featured shamrock detail on top and intricate scroll detail all executed in iron.
These were positioned exclusively along the edge of the side pavements, and on the four corners of O’Connell Bridge – and as far as can be made out the same models were used on Westmoreland St, College Green etc.
Most interestingly, if you want to know what they looked like in real life, it seems some of them were moved and still survive in use on Harcourt St as pictured below. They seem to be identical. Considering there’s only the odd one on Harcourt amongst other posts, it’s very possible these originally came from O’Connell St.
1900-1916
Sometime during this period O’Connell Bridge’s lanterns were reduced in number due to safety concerns, with the parapet columns being cut down to single-lamp posts and the median standards down to three arms from their previous five. Sadly, much of the bridge’s grandeur was lost as a result, something it didn’t regain for nearly a century.1920-23
During this period, new rather bizarre looking electric lamps were attached to the swan-neck posts, replacing the earlier globes. Some of these can be seen swinging loosely in the wind in some footage. They survived right up till the end of these grand post’s lives. These lampposts also seem to have experienced a variety of colours including black/dark grey, silver and possibly even white for the Eucharistic Congress! Here’s an example of the strange heads in the form of an identical Dawson St version from the period:
Cntd…
😀
That’s where I’d seen it before!
Here it is before and after 1916 as pictured in the IAP – it was literally the only building left standing out of that entire terrace:
By the time 1916 come along, the Hibernian Bank was already come into possession of the building – I think they used it as their HQ – wouldn’t you?!
Also just a pic below of O’Connell Monument at its most magnificent, without its railings, but surrounded by the four splendid lamp standards. Interesting that the railings weren’t totally original to the monument, but arrived a couple of years later.
The disappearance of the four lamps was a terrible loss to the stature of the monument – they gave it a dignity and power that just isn’t there anymore. Here, in its original state, the mounument completely dominates with the lamps helping to spread its power out into the street, while now the median curtails it in a most unfortunate way.
The lamps disappeared in around 1930.Also the insert in the picture depicts a small turreted building that can be seen to the right at the juction with Sackville Place.
A correction regarding the O’Connell Bridge lamps needs to be made – their alteration did not happen in 1919 as stated, as can be seen not least in the 1916 picture above where they’re already altered! It occured somewhere between 1900 and 1916.
The 1919 date is from an official City Council document, but is clearly incorrect 😮On one level it is warped indeed, but I think it is important to note that these silver lampposts are much more than just heritage pieces of furniture: they are as much a part of Dublin as red telephone boxes are to London. And I presume that in some areas of that city brand new boxes have also been installed over the years in places where needed not because they’re olde worlde, but because they embody the city in a manner like nothing else.
Likewise in Dublin, in fairness to the City Council, the erection of these lampposts in appropriate places is generally executed in this spirit rather than in that of a yearning for the days of yore as is generally the case with pastiche concoctions.
Saying that, there is absolutely no defence for what has happened on College Street and D’Olier Street – they were/are the last remnants of a piece of street furniture once seen all over the city centre and ought to be/have been preserved in situ, and as a complete entity.That’s a great pic you posted there Devin, I never noticed that very fine curved detail on the side elevation of the arches before – very Art Deco.
Note all the dirt accumulated on the floor of the lamps 🙂Looks interesting alright – is it an office or residential, or something else?
Where was your picture taken from Morlan? I’m guessing the Stephen’s Green Centre mutli-storey….
Other nice pics there too – we’ve seen the original and best here before from the Gasometer thread 🙂Interesting to note how the view has changed, not least with the addition of that heap of junk in the middle…
Largely I suppose; considering the Wide Streets Commission were dead set against City Hall they certainly had some sort of grander scheme in mind.
Never seen the plans for Bedford though, and I don’t know if the WSC supported this plan for the site which presumably was a residential square, or whether it was the Chapel Royal proposal that they wanted executed.As for the City Hall scaffolding, considering it’s only on one facade at present it’s likely that the windows are just being painted (probably not black enough for the CC considering the recent trend :))
Hopefully they’ll replace any blown bulbs in the portico while they’re at it.Has much happened in the past few years in the improvement of the centre of Limerick? Any pictures?
Has O’ Connell St come on a bit too – was there about ten years ago when it was unfortunately quite dingy.
It has a feel of Harcourt St in Dublin to to it which is quite strange – with some of its stock looking like Harcourt’s replicas!
Sourthern Georgian is interesting – the doorcases seem to dominate a bit more in facades than other areas of the country – like these houses in Barrington St:
By contrast, windows seem to dominate less in smaller schemes or houses, with facades made up of wall punctuated with windows, rather than windows surrounded by some wall, as often seen in the East 🙂
Though one could equally argue that City Hall is also sticking out 🙂
Suppose another possibility for this site could have been to develop a decent public facade for the Castle, terminating the Parliament St vista instead of City Hall being squeezed in in front by the merchants with those houses alongside, which would also result in a wider street and the creation of a decent corner/plaza space at what was effectively the meeting point of the new and old cities.
…as opposed to 1270 🙂
Agreed about a new thread for old street lighting – by all accounts if Paul wants to move any content feel free, as long as nobody else has any objections to theirs being moved…
Originally that post started out with just the lighting of O’Connell St, but it just got bigger and bigger, and then bigger again once posted!
Dublin’s Heritage Street Lighting seems like a decent thread alright – just not ‘antique’ or something – kinda patronising to the technologies of old or something…
Or various threads for other cities’ lighting either, just that Dublin tends to swamp anything that’s non-specific.Interesting how heritage lighting and ‘heritage’ lighting mean entirely different things 😀
