GrahamH
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Discovered some fascinating information today on foot of Simon’s suggestions. I checked the bases of all six remaining 1938 columns and sadly, but incredibly luckily, all but one remains intact. Four of them have nasty metal plates clamped onto them as mentioned before:
…while two original doors remain but only one fully intact – crucially with a fantastically comprehensive maker’s stamp and address still in place at the bottom! It would appear that these columns were rather exotically made on the Continent!
Here you can see one of the two remaining doors, this damaged with part of the plate missing to the bottom, but nonetheless look how wonderfully neat and well made these doors are – a seamless design, beautifully made:
And the all important maker’s stamp on the single intact door: Sofrapel of Paris!
To this day the company appear to be engaged in concrete formulation and experimentation from what I can make out on the internet – fascinating stuff. So not British at all! (?)
It seems the columns were cast in France and shipped over – what a cargo! I wonder if the lamps are Irish-made…The more you look at the concrete, the more it seems it was always this rough. I find it hard to imagine that this aggregate compound was originally much smoother that what we have today – it has hardly weathered so much in 70 years.
The mix is so coarse, and the ‘stones’ so large, that it seems it was always like this; the posts are very early concrete examples after all.
Sadly, on close inspection there is little doubt these posts are on their last legs – unfortunately they’re going to have to be uprooted, at the very least for huge restoration if not total replacement. To be frank, they look dangerous.
The most shocking example of damage on D’Olier Street:
College Street – there’s cracking the whole way down the picture:
And goodness only knows what’s wrapped up inside this:
The post across the road has similar bandaging in two places along its shaft, and other posts’ arms don’t look overly secure where they attach to the column.
It really is such a shame to see them all in this state – cracking concrete, severe erosion, whole chunks of shafts gouged out, rusting steels, dirty lamps, missing glass, horrid plastic and metal ties wrapped round bases, and hideous lumps of metal being passed off as replacement doors. What a disaster.
The columns must be removed immediately for their own good. They ought to be fully restored if this is technically possible. If not, perhaps replacement parts such as shafts or lamp arms could be recast, again if possible. The notion of full replicas rings a bit hollow, but there’s certainly no reason why the original lamps could not be used in such a case.
Either way something has to be done, and quickly. Presumably a structural survey has already been conducted on all of them in the interest of public safety…?
They’re such a part of the character of central Dublin – it would be a shame to lose them 🙁
Littered as in rated as ‘Local’, amongst Regional and all the others. I must have a good look up on the description of these buildings and where they are (tend to be stuck for time any time I’m looking at the RPS for some reason).
Thanks for your information – so in theory all buildings (other than Regional +), even the chipper on the corner, are Local structures? It is simply a designation as part of the greater scheme of rating by the NIAH that isn’t necessarily of any significance at all – indeed for the most part probably isn’t? Is it the case that at present efforts are just going into recording buildings of architectural merit, before eventually, one day, encompassing everything?
Yes the ‘bumping up’ of buildings to Regional status is certainly something that skews the system. Whereas in practice there’s nothing wrong with it if a worthy building is given protection, it nonetheless highlights as you say ctesiphon a flaw in the ranking methods that is in need of revision. Does the Loc, Reg, Nat, Intnat system replace the List 1, 2, 3 system, or did it exist alongside it pre-1999/2000 do you know?
Ah – the press release is always one step ahead 😮
http://www.irish-architecture.com/news/2006/000034.html
Just on Scott and Bus
The loss of the ‘chunky’ valley roofs was as equally damaging as the chopping of the wings – they gave the building a grand solid air, forming the great arms that wrap around the central temple. What a shame – they ought to be reinstated, not least as a perhaps more feasible project than the wing extending.
Fantastic chimney in the middle of the pic there – they don’t make them like that anymore 🙂
A bit off-topic, but just thinking for a while – who came up with the rather prosaic term ‘Government Buildings’? It’s a name you’d more readily associate with Australia or New Zealand rather than a western European country.
Did Charlie dream it up or was it a civil servant insider job? Or did it exist before the wholescale takeover in the late 80s?@ctesiphon wrote:
The two things – NIAH and RPS – are separate.
Yes I knew that much at least, but again can I ask (pester) where the Local designation derives from, and what is its purpose? Presumably it is a LA categorisation? Does it have any legal standing at all if it cannot obtain PS status?
Just these structures interest me as 1) they tend to be the ‘humbler’, arguably more ‘dubious’ buildings as may be perceived by the public and 2) at least one RPS I know of is littered with them!
Thanks.
Correct!
I thought the lime tree was handing it up on a plate, but clearly not!Don’t have a wide view of the building but the capital depicted is up at the top of the ground floor anyway 🙂
A strange building that isn’t particularly attractive as a whole; pompous neoclassical, highly embellished ground floor, austere neo-Georgian above, and then capped off with a modernist parapet and pediment! An excellent monument to changing times though.You can see in the picture that Plan B has been called into action by Paddy Power – they’re seeking to let the building upon adapting it for retail requirements via a planning application for glazed interventions to the front, amongst others.
It won’t surprise many to learn it was lodged two days before Christmas Eve :rolleyes:If I might just haul you out again for a minute 🙂 – what is the status then of Local buildings? Why are they included in the Record if they’re not PSs? Indeed why does the category of Local even exist if it isn’t officially recognised? (assumption)
I’d agree up to a point, in that an element of compensation should be offered but only through the current grants system we have in place (notwithstanding the minuscule amounts set aside by LA’s at the minute). The cost of upgrading/improving/otherwise altering a protected structure is generally speaking not extortionate in comparison to a non-protected building – for the majority of average buildings, especially dwellings. Where costs do mount up, that’s when the grant system should kick in and grants can be issued in a proportional way, which I think is fair. It’s not as if the average Joe Soap is being required to gild every ceiling in his home, or every commercial building being required to foot the bill for specialist conservation teams to be dressed in 1830s costume – by and large it is the practices, materials and design that are being enforced with PSs, not all necessarily higher cost interventions. And even if they are, within reasonable boundaries it ought to be up to the owner to foot the bill – anything above that and the grant system kicks in (or should anyway).
Thank you ctesiphon for that extensive reply, most interesting. The NIAH system seems a very fair and comprehensive one, even if as you say it cannot account for everything – the three step procedure being particularly impressive.
Just on the issue of Councillors, you cannot be serious about they deciding over what is to be accepted or not?! What is the point of going through the expert system only for it to be put into the hands of…lets just say laypeople?
And you say it is structures classed as Regional or above that get passed by the Minister (presumably advisors/OPW): what about Local – are these structures automatically passed onto Councillors?Yes, again I was being somewhat disingenuous over the ‘is it right’ mantra 🙂 – agreed it is very much so an area of education and protecting the wider public interest. Just as I may hold no knowledge whatever of marshland habitats or the flora and fauna of boglands I would still expect what experts in the field deem to be worthy of conservation and protection be given just that statutory treatment, and similarly in those cases that owners of the land be given certain financial aid where the burden is considered excessive.
A final question that’s been niggling for a while – why was the graded listing system abolished with the 2000 Act, especially considering we usually look to the UK as something of a benchmark? Is there such a precedent to have a blanket system (with or without Declarations) in other countries?
Thanks again for the response – must have taken a while 🙂
Yes, that’s precisely what I thought too, and was going along with that theory until a few pre-War photographs blew it out of the water! 🙁
I can’t find them just at the miniute – must have a better look.The one thing to bear in mind is that, as you probably know, the Irish Civil War reduced much of Upper O’Connell Street to rubble in 1922. Considering that the lampposts of that time had even managed to survive the much greater devastation of 1916, allbeit with a few likely smashed lamps, the opportunity was probably taken in 1923 to replenish all of the city centre lamps considering many were probably replaced in a piecemeal fashion following both events. Hence the rather spooky looking electric lamps that were attached which can be seen swinging in the wind on O’Connell Bridge in some footage!
My theory anyway. Though what the heck sort of lamps they are goodness only knows…
Yep – all of the Merrion Street columns were made here – you can just make it out on the ribbon detail at the base on the left:
Similarly many of the small posts on Grafton Street and/or St. Stephen’s Green were made there.
It does – thanks 🙂
Indeed even on the refractor in image above you can see a variation in the ripples of the glass – don’t know if that accounts for anything.Yes Stanton made quite a few Dublin posts; you see them a lot around the south inner city and suburbs. On a broader level in fact you don’t get that many concretes on the Northside, perhaps reflective of the general lack of investment that part of the city got at the time.
As strange as it may seem at first it’s really not surprising that the 1938 posts were of a smooth glossy surface originally – if you look at many of the 1950s posts around the city, many of them still retain an element of that orginal finish, although even then it does seem that a higher grade of concrete was used in these later posts; many are in remarkably good condition on the face of it anyway.
As for the doors Simon, I could be wrong but it would appear that the 1938s have replacement doors today – nasty unfinished steel yokes. Saying that, it’s possible they are the orginals – would they have been painted to begin with?
Now that you describe them as arc lamps, it is instantly apparent why the 1892 set were so short-lived!
They must have been a nightmare to maintain! And how antiquated too by the 1900s.
Here’s a typical arc lamp from the period with the rods clearly exposed – you can see the striking similarity to those in Dublin city centre, and indeed as were installed right across Europe:
@Cute Panda wrote:
there is a real OIRISH mentality when something like this is announced
Indeed this project in itself is a real modern OIRISH concept: vulgar, flashy, built for a quick buck by the private sector, and with little consideration for both its wider and longer term environmental impact.
If it’s so beneficial to the city then why isn’t the City Council proposing to build it as a nice little earner for itself?
Brilliant stuff Simon – thank you for that information.
So is it likely they were made in the UK? And what caused the shift to the use of concrete in the 1930s do you know?
I’d often wondered about those refractor rings you mention inside the lamps…
…can you explain what you said about directing the light out into the street a little more? Do you mean it directed the light out in all directions in a 360 degree manner, or just specifically out to the roadway?
Certainly the appeal of these lamps for me has always been the multi-directional light emitted – very efficient.And now that you mention the bluey-white light bulbs installed in the 60s, I vaguely recall some of the fittings on D’Olier St as late as about 1990 still having such bulbs still intact! They looked so much better.
Thanks again for all your fascinating information!@Devin wrote:
it was being altered for a nightclub :rolleyes: (back in the ’80s), but it never went ahead.
It must have reached an advanced stage though as the lettering is still on the basement wall outside! Apollo or something – or is that Parnell Square?….
That’s good to hear about the first floor – certainly the impression given in the IAA photos with accompanying captions was of an almost gutted house including the drawing room. Is the outer hall bricked up do you know Devin – it seemed that was too.
But yes, the stairwell and landings are incredible. The wall panelling and semi-balconied landing is truly superb – and the chunky Venitian window as mentioned before 🙂
Yes I was wondering what that selophane was about too; not sure if it’s protecting the concrete or just holding the electrial access doors in place. Probably the former given metal bands are the usual short-term solution to broken doors.
Even in Morlan’s pic here you can see quite a bit of deterioration to the concrete, and only that that can be seen:
They are definitely in need of work at this stage; given the unusual nature of their construction they don’t even receive a coat of paint over their lifetime. And goodness knows what structural state the lamps are in at this stage.
Indeed just on the lamps, I came across one of these notorious 1930s pieces recently having passed it for years without realising what it was, as has probably everyone else: the lamp suspended from the ceiling of the entrance foyer to Trinity on College Green! How did that get there?!
Also on streetlighting, an application of undercoat to a lamp on Talbot Street recently highlights just how good standards can look in a colour other than boring old black. Coloured streetlights can really help in creating an identity for certain streets and ought to be tried out more (though not with those hideous lanterns).
That’s the Royal Dublin townhouse – the last on the street of course.
Yes the lintel is badly damaged, and has been for years, but nothing that can’t be repaired.
We’re lucky that well-proportioned one in particular survived – most of the other townhouse’s doorcases were big sprawling clunky yokes.The IAA pictures of the interior fully explain what Frank McDonald spoke about all those years ago in The D of D – it is devasted inside to an extraordinary degree. To the point that you’d wonder what the point if it all was – it all looks like wanton destruction just for damage’s sake. In which case I suppose it’s self-explanitory :rolleyes:
Luckily the magnificent stairwell has survived, but even today I think the drawing room fronting the street is still mostly bare breeze blocks.
😀
Though that was a runner-up – the winning designs by London bloc Architects can be seen here:
http://www.reflectingcity.com/index.html?a=5&t=23&p=29
“The suite of furniture will include two cafes, a ticket and information offices, five retail units, two news stands, two self-cleaning WCs, twelve public telephone boxes and nine bus or taxi shelters.”
Things are really whizzing along on the Upper street – upwards of 30 men are now working away up there, so much so it’s difficult to take a picture without being nabbed in one way or another 🙂
The new paving outside the Gresham:
The double-width pavements make such a difference to the northern end – there’s a wonderful sense of space and freedom to move about.
The paving outside Castle’s townhouse:
…and the scene further down looking north from Henry Street – quite a bit left to go here anyway, but again the new pedestrian space makes a remarkable difference:
Can’t wait to see it all finished, espcially the line of trees along the pavement edge.
Hope to have lots of before and after pictures which may be interesting.Delighted to see the Public Office of the GPO is getting a facelift, just as I was thinking how grubby it had become since last decorated in a rather pukey yellow, probably in 1984 or 1988. An elegant beige/tan colour is being used this time round with crisp white emulsion detailing – the contrast looks fantastic.
A real Edwardian look to it.
Now if only they’d do away with those naff 80s shopping centre light pendents and install something more befitting of the surroundings. Not that the original scheme in the 20s was any better – fluorescent tubes fixed to the walls were used to light the space! Though in pictures, up on the ceiling roses there seems to have been flush-mounted glass dome light fittings so typical of the era.
Why not go all out and install a glittering chandelier as the focal point and more contemporary fittings on the other roses? Something that would take your breath away every time you entered, like the Dargan Room in the National Gallery 🙂
