GrahamH
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Forgot to say – Penneys are proposing a complete revamp of their store on the street, along the lines of the Mary Street branch, to start in the autumn.
My ‘informer’ didn’t know if any exterior works are happening – although one can presume the marble on the ground floor is going – heres hoping Mr Builder accidentally pulls down the rest of the facade while he’s at it.
Interestingly the second floor is occupied by none other than their vast stock room, stretching right up to the main street facade. No wonder BHS wanted a four storey concrete facade at the front – although they almost succeded down poor Princes Street. They’ve a huge stock room in the basement too.If that’s the building I think it is – heaven preserve us – have you ever seen such rubbish. It’s like a time capsule dug up from the depths of a 1992 cesspit! What a shame.
Was on the plaza on O’ Cll St today – wow I see what Greg F is talking about. All the railings are gone from the median and the area looks fantastic! And the median stonework flows almost seamlessly into the road, something one couldn’t really appreciate till now. What a pity lighting wasn’t sunken into each of the lighter coloured squares – how amazing would that have looked at night!
The first of the carriageway lamposts have gone in too – complete with brackets to hold celebratory banners. There’s posts going onto the median too for the smaller pedestrian lights which’ll look really good.Ireland is a high-cost country, the facilities of the Fitzwilliam are standard and similar to that of any other hotel in Western Europe.
Dubai is hardly comparable. Either way, I agree the Fitzwilliam needs taking down a peg or two – so full of itself despite it being one of the worst buildings in the city and in a poor location.‘Old brown buildings’ are a matter of opinion, but to most people and certainly to most on this site these Georgians are incredibly beautiful to look at. Indeed I tend to favour brown stock bricks over red, they’re more sophisticated and reserved.
And we most certainly did not do right in allowing buildings to be demolished to make things safe – had anyone bothered to enforce basic matainance and upkeep on these buildings the city wouldn’t have been in the mess it was.The pic I posted indeed sums up what Dublin is like in general – but as a charming, crumbly, low-rise muddled city, not backward or regressive. My pixelated 3rd generation rubbish doesn’t do that beautiful scene justice, nor the photograph itself which I must attribute to the highly skilled building photographer Hugh McConville.
Good pic.
It’s important to point out it’s young children the office speaks of, the likes of whom everyone gives out about seeing in the back of Mammy’s four by four, who’s feet can’t even touch the ground, and who feature in every car ad.
They don’t blame these parents for bringing these kids in the car if the distance is over 10/15 mins, and nor would I.Also of note, and probably the most important factor that you mention Brian, and the DTO, is that it all fuels car dependency with kids growing up thinking the car’s the only way.
All of this ties into the DTOs vast brief of planning transport that is fundamentally linked into planning as a whole, higher densities etc.
BDG, that’s classier than silly Georgians – or indeed anything else for that matter?
Ok…It’s definitely quieter alright.
I had the privilege to speak to John Henry of the DTO about this.
He says kiddie traffic constitutes a whopping quarter of the city’s traffic in the morning – at least!
But interestingly the Office (who essentially plan the city’s transportation) really don’t blame parents for driving their kids to school, they acknowledge how dangerous the city is now for children, mingling with busy roads and being hassled by weirdos etc.
They fully accept that children under 10 or even 12 shouldn’t be cycling or walking alone, esp in the dark winter.
But they are trying out walking bus programmes where parents take it in turns to gather kids up in the mornings and walk them all to school. Other aspects they want to implement are better pedestrian crossings and public lighting, for kids who live closer to school and who can walk or cycle.
Certainly more buses for the ‘in betweens’ are need though.It’s interesting, something that’s perhaps even evident on this site, is that out of the 8,820 teenagers cycling in Dublin (almost exclusively to school) 8200 are male, with a pathethic 620 female.
Going by that figure alone, and factoring in that maybe more girls walk to school (unlikely) there’s at least another 7000 girls capable of cycling to school – not even accounting for the vast hoards that are in cars either way!Sorry for hijacking Bulldozergirl – keep the pics rolling.
I think the power lines in the suburbs, esp around Crumlin and Templogue and Terenure are kind of charming, kinda homely and communityish!Just comparing Luas with Dublin trams – in 1879 horse-drawn trams left Rathmines every three and a half minutes at peak times – albethey without 250+ bowler hats crammed on board – compared with an initial 5 mins for Luas.
And even earlier in 1867, it was served by an omnibus every 10 minutes.
There were also plans on the back of the success of the Underground in London to build a line underground from the city centre to Rathmines, with 3 stations on the route from the canal to the Temple Road area. It’s quite extraordinary the extent of the commuter-belt even then, and the tram numbers don’t even take into account the hoards of people who walked to work.There’s great potential in this area today for this walking and cycling routine to be replicated with the eventual sell-off of Portobello Barracks. High density housing here, a mere 20 minutes walk from Dame St or 10 to Stephen’s Green would be a major boost in getting people back into/near the city, not to mention the knock-on improvement of the dingy Rathmines Road – and is in direct state control.
I echo everything said; to lose the shopfronts would be awful. To lose the character of this part of the street – essentially buildings that make it a street – would be even worse.
Surely the demolition of structures such as these that shape and define an area into a street, in favour of an open space, would not be permitted under the City Development Plan and hence would not be upheld on appeal by An Bord Pleanala?There’ll be a hell of a lot of objections if this goes ahead.
I cannot believe Trinity have the cheek to do this esp as they’re listed; after years of bashing from everyone they’re still as blind as ever – they just tart up the theatrics to the front and leave the rest to rot.Ireland is great for its halls, no developer here would ever contemplate building a house even today without a hall, unless it’s a bedsit or similar – unlike the UK where walk-in ‘Neighbours’ style houses are everywhere. UK based people I know are constantly amazed at the size of halls here.
The East Wall would explain the windows – typical lower-middle class housing stuffed in on cheap land near the railway line that no one else wanted – accociated with dirt & disease etc. In contrast with Clontarf across the water on comparitively high ‘healthy’ ground, hence larger more fashionable housing here.
If your house was the same but in a different location, say off one of the middle-middle class Circular roads, it would have a two-over-two window at the front, being in a more fashionable area.Villas were built as you describe simply to copy larger houses, despite them having no room! So you’d have a large drawing room to the front and a statement of an entrance hall simply to impress visitors, to the detriment of the rest of the house.
To devote so much space to entertaining and reception of guests was absolutely crucial to lower-middle class people to distinguish themselves from the masses – of which there were a great many in Dublin! I know it all sounds so simplistic and ordered to divide society up in this way, but they’re just general descriptive strokes – with a lot of blurring between them all.To make it relevant – O’ Connell Street is 2 miles from the East Wall.
O’ Connell Street has windows too 🙂Why don’t they just make it count, ie, make it a cathedral!
Does a church have to be a certain size to assume such a title?
This limbo that’s existed for decades is ridiculous.Aha, one must also factor in whether it’s an artisan house, or lower-middle class, middle middle class or upper middle class – in Victorian terms of course 🙂
If it’s a typical smaller single-storey terraced villa, with maybe one or two steps up to the front door, then Georgian sashes were common until about 1865, esp if the developer was a tight-wad, which was common in the 1860s cause the real cash to be made in that decade was in larger housing.
Alhough admittedly most housing like this would have a two-over-two as a drawing room window by 1860 with Gerogians to the rear, so if yours is similar – um – it would have been a tad out of date at time of completion!
Some areas of the city tended to be more ‘progressive’ than others, so it also depends on what general area your house is in.heh heh
I hate Victorian horns on Georgian sashes too, esp on crappy repro houses. The best are the PVC versions that swing outwards with the horns attached. Unbelievable!
The horns were also useful for strenghtening the frames as a result of the new Victorian plate or cylinder glass, which was much much heavier than the wafer-thin Georgian crown glass.
I’m glad you say the glass was introduced around 1850, most people – including Peter Pearson – say it came here in the 1830/40s. This is not the case – certainly not for mainstream use.
I have yet to come across a single example prior to 1852/3, which was when the Mansion House had it installed as possibly the first building ever here. An indication of its price is down the sides of the House, where the original 1710 chunky sashes remain.
Cylinder glass was developed in Bristol I think in 1832, but took some years to come down in price and make its way to Ireland, and for it to be made here.Even the largest of houses being built on the Pembroke Estate in the late 1850s only had it installed in the drawing room windows, with Geogian glass and sashes upstairs.
1860 is a good marker for the ‘cheapening’ of such glass, meaning it could be made in larger sheets less expensively, resulting in the standard one-over-one sashes replacing two-over-two as you say Devin. Hence the two-over-twos were now shunted upstairs in Victorian houses, with the larger new panes kept for drawing rooms downstairs. (Sorry, I’m something of a fanatic on Irish windows!)
Suppose the horns on the windows on O’ Cll St are a bit of a giveaway, moreso the glazing bars which would be three times as chunky if dating from the 1740s. The first floor Victorian sash is obviously new because it’s a larger window, but the upper windows may indeed have just had the bars removed, I’ve seen this done elsewhere as well. And the fact that every pane in the older yellow side windows, save 2 or 3, have modern smooth glass instead of wavy crwon, has to be as a result of the Pillar explosion, there’s no other expnation for so much replacement glass, and for some old panes to remain. Suppose insurance claims for the time could confirm this or otherwise.
I find the contrast between Merrion Square and Fitzwilliam Square facinating, the fact that Fitzwilliam has way more replacement Victorian plate than Merrion, despite Merrion being older and supposedly needing replacement windows sooner.
I think this conveys the difference in class of the areas; Merrion was was full of the professions, aging aristocrats and stuffy ‘old money’ in the 1860s, whereas Fitzwilliam was inhabited by fashionable, youngish ‘new money’ merchants, who were much more conscious of taste and fashion and ‘conspicuous consumption’. Plate and cylinder glass were something of status symbols, something that the musty old folk on Merrion Square didn’t care about anymore.
That’s my theory anyway – like to think that such egos influnced the city’s architecture – suppose just like every other building!Anyone see the repeat of the Tall Tales programme about the Pillar last night? Watching it for the second (ok 4th) time, you can see how much the place has changed even since the late 70s and 80s.
We think it’s bad now – it was woeful then, esp the Ann Summers terrace and the Dublin Bus terrace with discount stores galore.
And Burger King at the lower end was divided up into 2 or 3 tacky stores, with no unity to the facade and signs all over.
There was nasty shopping centre car-park lighting down what was a fragmented median – indeed you could even park behind O’ Cll Monument.
The distinguished Clarks building was plastered with Texaco signs, and had tacky signage for Burtons or something that was occuping the retail unit, much like every other store.
And as difficult as it is to believe, the Burger King-to-Supermacs terrace was even worse than it is now.Good things – ah the Metropole, the Capitol – no Penneys.
They fitted so well next to Easons & Mansfield, and of course flanking the GPO on the other side.
Some glimpses of Gilbeys and the precursing Georgians of Burgerland – now Schuh (Burgerland was in the Georgians before they were knocked too)
As late as 1980 O’ Cll Monument’s railings were still there – presumably removed in the works of 88.What seems bizarre now is that buses could drive up the street, turn left just inches north of where the Spike is now, cross the median and go down Nth Earl St!
It’s also very easy to see from earlier pics how mature and uniform the trees at the northen end are, compared with the ad-hoc planting further down. This area must have been so prestigious in the late 20s after all the reconstruction, with the trees well established from around 1903.
Loads of shots of O’ Cll Bridge House being built too – felt like shouting at the screen – STOP! You don’t know what you’re doing! If only you knew! Pity there isn’t an erase button on the remote – zap it to oblivion.
Shock – lanterns in Dublin without CFL bulbs in them!
To be fair, the lines on Kildare St are the only ones in the city centre; they link the Shelbourne’s car park in that red Georgian across to the hotel – the internal phone system probably.
What are much more crude are further down the street, where loads of security cameras erected last summer were simply tacked onto the lamposts with the yellow wires draped across to the Ntl Museum and Ntl Library, with some wires even suspended between lamposts.
More refined work was carried out on Merrion St.And one can only imagine the NIMBY objections to the embankment and bridge construction that continues for quite a distance to the north to ‘prepare’ the line for the drop in levels.
Thanks for that trace.
So did the line north of the valley not link to the south at all prior to 1855?It’s a shame the original lattice section had to be removed – much more elegant and so typical of the early railway period. And just look at those fantastic corbely swag things flanking each end – remind you of the brackets on the extention to Grattan Bridge.
Such lanky structures are still dotted all over the UK, not many over here unfortunately.
The masonry coming from the site would explain the big heaps of sand and craters etc still dotted around nearby.Not sure what length it is despite passing over most days – the metal expanse 100m perhaps – there’s always gasps of oooohs and ahhhs and mammy help from tourists and train newbies when we pass over. Does the iron part date from the 1840s – always thought it looked a bit later – maybe there were stone arches crossing all the way originally?
Have to laugh at what a hole Drogheda looks from up there with the docks etc infront of the town – entirely misleading of course 🙂
There’s a lovely isolated terrace of Georgians perched up on ro-G’s side near the viaduct – early 19th century one-offs that do complement the landscape.
You can really appreciate how the town developed from up there, with Georgian merchant housing safely high up, with later Victorians even higher in the valley, while ‘artisan’ housing is left with the grimey smokey lowlands.Anyone know what the brick chimney to the east of the viaduct is from?
Never thought Jim Gogarty could be beaten in the wandering stakes til now!
Dublin’s 50s semi-ds are usually of breeze block construction.
Yes mansions do have many chimneys – Castletown has over 90 hearths – with chimneys often concealed behind parapets or flues sharing exposed stacks.
The white pedestrian/cyclist bridge is another good landmark, most reports on the news relating to traffic are inevitably shot from here.
O’ Cll Bridge House – enough said…
