Gianlorenzo
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I see from the FOSCC site that they have been granted an oral hearing of their appeal to An Bord Pleanala re the reordering of St. Colman’s Cathedral. They are also looking for art historian and experts in ecclesiastical and 19th century architecture. Are there any about? 😎 It is coming down to the wire!!!!
@MT wrote:
What’s happening to these church interiors is in many ways a microcosm of all that has gone wrong in development and planning in Ireland in recent years. Heritage is being destroyed, the countryside is being pockmarked with one off houses and ribbon development contiues to dribble out of many towns. A once beautiful place is being seriously disfigured. 🙁
Does all this not suggest that Ireland needs an equivalent to the powerful and influencial English Heritage to preserve what’s left of the island’s historic urban and rural settings and the architectural heritage found within them?
Can you imagine how far the Dean of St Paul’s in London would get if he proposed a similar type of reordering for that city’s famous centre-piece: he’d be run out of the country!
Funny, I thought we had a ‘Heritage Council’!!:rolleyes:
Anyone up for running Bishop Magee out of the country, at least until they can secure the Cathedral from his disastrous re-ordering proposals.
But in reality no catholic church in Ireland is safe until something is done about that weasely Chapter 5 of the Architectural Heritage Protection Guidelines for Planning Authorities which deals with Places of Public Worship. Whoever wrote it managed to get into an important piece of planning legislation, justification for the wanton unnecessary vandalism we have seen on this tread.
The solution may lie in running the so called ‘litugists’ ,who are responsible for the philosophy behind this, out of the country.:D
@ake wrote:
3.Why can’t Ireland have something like Westminster (RC) Cathedral or the Brompton Oratory if we have nominally almost as many Caths. as Britain?
I have no answer to this question, but given the wholesale destruction of much of our eccliesiatical architectural heritage, may it is just as well. Can you image what would happen if some of our more notorious re-orderers were let loose in something like the Brompton Oratory.:eek:
@ake wrote:
1.Just for clarity could someone explain what exactly reordering is: What the effects are on the cathedral and why people want to do it? As an aside – are georgian mansions the only protected buildings in ireland? Are churches not considered heritage to be protected from the whims of the vatican?
To Ake
1. Re-ordering is a term used by church authorities as a misnomer in an attempt to persuade parishioners that what they intend to do the sanctuaries of their churches is a simple moving about of furniture, when in fact it usually entails the removal of much loved features such as high altars, altar rails, statuary, pulpits, sediliae etc. and the insertion of modern and inappropriate furnishings. [This is a very simplistic answer and I know when Praxitele comes on he will give you a fuller explanation.]
The real tragedy here is that these changes are carried out in the name of ‘liturgical requirement’ from Vatican II, which is quite simply a LIE. These things are not required liturgically, or otherwise, and are usually the personal preferences of the local clerics. It has almost become ‘keeping up with the Joneses’.
I think you would find that, if asked, the vast majority of parishioners involved would say no to these changes, but the whole process is carefully orchastrated so that their opinion is neither invited nor welcome. Therefore the effects on these people is devastation and they would argue that what has occurred is not re-ordering, but destruction, thus the title of this thread. An example of this was seen in Cobh, where when asked c.97% of the adult population opposed the porposed changes, thus the current appeal to APB and oral hearing.
he effect of this in Ireland has been the loss of some priceless works of art and in many cathedrals and churches the skewing of the orientation and raison d’etre of the building.Your question regarding the heritage aspect is good. One would have thought ,in this day and age, that our public bodies would not feel the necessity of kowtowing to some members of the clergy, particularly against the wishes of the people, but sadly it appears that in some quarters they are happy to allow the destruction of our ecclesiastical architectural heritage. One of the reasons for this, I believe, is that the media are almost completely silent on this issue. Another is that in most cases people have been faced with a fait accompli and feel helpless to do anything about it. This would change if the great lie of ‘liturgical requirement’ were exposed.
In the end it comes down to “who cares?” Not enough people of influence, is the answer.One final note on this part of your question, the whim involved here has nothing whatsoever to do with the Vatican, the whim is very much an Irish infection, albeit imported from America and parts of the UK.
Catholic Cathedrals (years under construction) Architects
St. Patrick’s Armagh (1840-73) Thomas Duff; J.J. McCarthy
Annunciation of the Blessed Virgin Mary and St. Nathy, Ballaghaderreen (1855-60) Hadfield & Goldie, (later work W.H. Byrne)
St. Muredach, Ballina (1827-92) Dominic Madden; Marcus Murray: Sir JohnBenson
St. Peter’s, Belfast (1828-66) Fr. Jeremiah McAuley; John O’Neill
Assumption of Blessed Virgin Mary , Carlow (1828-33) (Joseph Lynch) Thomas Cobden
St. Patrick and St. Felim, Cavan (1939-42) William H. Byrne
St. Colman’s, Cobh (1868-1915) E.W. Pugin and George Ashlin
St. Mary and St. Anne’s, Cork(1799-1869) ? Francis Johnson; ?Sir Richard Morrison: ? Fr. Matt Hogan.
St. Eugene’s, Derry (1851-1873) J.J. McCarthy and Charles Whelan
Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Dublin (1815-25) ? John Sweetman; ? Louis H. LeBas
St. Peter and St. Paul, Ennis (1828-43) Dominic Madden; Maurice Fitzgerald; J. J. McCarthy.
St. Aidan’s, Enniscorthy (1843-60) A.W.N. Pugin; J.J. McCarthy
Our Lady Assumed into Heaven and St. Nicholas, Galway (1957-64) John J. Robinson
Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Kilkenny (1843-57) William Butler
Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Killarney (1842-55) A.W.N. Pugin (1842-52); J.J. McCarthy (1853-
1855); Ashlin & Colman (1907-12)
St. Eunan & St. Columba, Letterkenny (1891-1901) William Hague and T.F. McNamara
St. John the Baptist, Limerick (1856-61) Philip C. Hardwick; Maurice Hennessy
St. Mel’s, Longford (1840- ) Joseph B. Kearne; John Burke; George Ashlin
St. Brendan’s Loughrea (1897-1902) William Byrne
St. Macartan’s, Monaghan (1861-92) J.J. McCarthy; William Hague
Christ the King, Mullingar (1933-36) Ralph Byrne
St. Patrick & St. Colman, Newry (1825-29) Thomas Duff; George Ashlin
St. Patrick’s, Skibbereen (1820’s) unknown
Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Sligo (1869-74) George Goldie
Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Thurles (1865-72) J.J. McCarthy
Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Tuam (1827-37) Dominic Madden; Marcus Murray; William Murray
Holy Trinity, Waterford (1793-6) John Roberts (1714-96)Architects directly involved in designing the Catholic Cathedrals of Ireland :-
J.J. McCarthy (7); George Ashlin (4); W.H. Byrne (3) Dominic Madden (3); Thomas Duff (2); A.W.N Pugin (2); George Goldie (2); Marcus Murray (2); William Hague (2); E.W. Pugin (1); Hadfield (1);William Butler (1) Sir John Benson (1); Fr. Jeremiah McAuley (1); John O’Neill(1); Thomas Cobden (1); Maurice Fitzgerald (1); John J. Robinson (1); T.F. McNamara (1); Philip Hardwick (1); Maurice Hennessy (1); Joseph B. Kearne (1); John Burke (1); Ralph Byrne (1); William Murray (1); John Roberts (1); Charles Whelan (1)
Gianlorenzo wrote:J. J. McCarthy was involved with six of Ireland’s Catholic Cathedrals]
😮
Change above to seven cathedrals. I forgot St. Eugene’s in Derry. McCarthy was the principal architect assisted by Charles Whelan.J. J. McCarthy was involved with six of Ireland’s Catholic Cathedrals; St. Patrick’s, Armagh; St. Peter and St. Paul’s, Ennis; St. Aidan’s, Enniscorthy; Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Killarney; St. Macartan’s, Monaghan; and Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Thurles.
He was the principal designer for Thurles and Monaghan, in Killarney and Enniscorthy he took over from A.W.N. Pugin, in Armagh he followed Thomas Duff, and in Ennis Dominic Madden and Maurice Fitzgerald.
J. J. McCarthy was involved with six of Ireland’s Catholic Cathedrals; St. Patrick’s, Armagh; St. Peter and St. Paul’s, Ennis; St. Aidan’s, Enniscorthy; Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Killarney; St. Macartan’s, Monaghan; and Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Thurles.
He was the principal designer for Thurles and Monaghan, in Killarney and Enniscorthy he took over from A.W.N. Pugin, in Armagh he followed Thomas Duff, and in Ennis Dominic Madden and Maurice Fitzgerald.
Paul Clerkin wrote:They were imported from Italy as far as I know, and are mostly irish saints and local bishops – the one at the far right is Donnelly, who finished the cathedral (or maybe McNally who commissioned it, cannot remember) – you can see that he is cradling a model of the cathedral. The arcade is quite high up on the elevation to the N2. END QUOTE]According to Peter Galloway in his ‘The Cathedrals of Ireland’ “The statues in the south transept gable respresents various Bishops of Clogher, with the exception of St. Dympna of Gheel. The gallery begins with St. Tiarnach, successor of St. Macartan and second Bishop of Clogher, and concludes with Bishop Donnelly”.
Now that Praxiteles has advanced to the Sedilia, I thought it might be interesting to look at some examples of the ‘old’ and the ‘new’.
New, – or would you have guessed?
Old
And so on..
Given that we are dealing in Cobh with the great iconoclast Cathal O’Neill, one shudders at the thought of what he will do. If he is capable of consigning Turnerelli’s masterpiece in the Pro-Cathedral to the scrapheep, there is no telling of what he is capable of in St. Colman’s. 🙁
@Praxiteles wrote:
re posting 361
The Ringkirche is a fine building and a good example of the neo Gothic in post-Bismarkian Germany. The arrangement of the interior corresponds and gives expression to Lutheran ideas about the Church, worship and the priesthood and is therefore accomodated to Lutheran needs.
There is a difficulty however. The Church being neo-Gothic depends on types, models, and spacial disposition going back to the middle-ages and beyond. As a neo-Gothic building it refers to ideas about the Church, worship and the priesthood that are much older than those formulated by Martin Luther in the 16 th. century. WHile liturgically the interior of the church is adapted to Lutheran worship, architecturaly it has to be said that the interior suffers from the conjunction of two (at times radically) differing if concepts of Church, worship and priesthood. We have a midevially inspuired shell with a 16th. century inspired interior spacial disposition. the result is that some elements of the building are made redundant. This is most noticeable in the Chancel which is played down to the extent of being almost superfluous.
Aha, so that explains Ennis and Clogher.
@sangallo wrote:
With reference in particular to posting #338 regarding scratching posts, and after a general examination of Mr Hurley’s church interiors, one wonders whether the major inspiration for these might not be the modern lactation centre? They come in a variety of models, catering for all needs. 🙂
😀 😀 😀 😀
