Gianlorenzo
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The chapel in Maynooth is still in good shape, but have you seen what they have done to St. Mary’s Oratory?
Take a look at #271 on page 11 of this thread.
Concerning believing observant articulate layfolk – they are around and they are trying, but many have found it impossible to get a sympathetic hearing from their clergy many of whom appear to consider obedience to the local liturgical clique more important than obedience to the norms of Catholic liturgy. Some of us are now trying to get these articulate layfolk to go directly to the Vatican with their complaints, but it will take time to get the word around.Re. #1608
Perhaps St Patrick’s, Maynooth ought to offer a few courses on art and architecture as well as a few dedicated to theories of aesthetic. This tasteless menage could be featured on a page in the textbook of horrors to be avoided.Deformity, grotesquery, and an unhealthy attraction to the bizarre seem to dominate religious ‘art’ and ‘architecture’ in today’s Ireland. Will somebody bring the Irish clergy to their senses? The Emperor is wearing NO CLOTHES. And the Sacred Heart is missing a plinth.
Rhabanus,
Where do you think the cretins learned all this stuff in the first place – St. Patrick’s Maynooth, of course!!!@jmrowland wrote:
I would be interested in getting people’s read on what is being done with Sacred Heart Church in Peoria – http://sacredheartpeoria.com/index.html – personally, I think that the result is quite beautiful, but I have some reservations! If the link doesn’t work, copy and paste it into your browser. Gallery 1 is before, the others are during and after.
Absolutely wonderful renovation. It looks as if Sacred Heart in Peoria had suffered a previous re-ordering similar to the destruction wrought on many Irish Churches. It is heartening to see how wonderfully such devastation can be turned around. It give hope for the many vandalised Irish Churches and Cathedrals we have seen on this thread.
@Sirius wrote:
Let us pray that Bishop Adrian of Cobh and the Elders of FOSCC will reflect on todays Gospel (Mark 7):
‘It was of you hypocrites that Isaiah so rightly prophesied in this passage of scripture: This people honours me only with lip-service, while their hearts are far from me. The worship they offer me is worthless, the doctrines they teach are only human (planning) regulations. You put aside the commandment of God to cling to human(architectural) traditions.’
Sirius, as ever comes on to insult.
I am very glad that he is so cognisant of what God is thinking and what is in the hearts of the ‘Elders of FOSCC’.
It must be pointed out that his argument could equally be applied to the Trustees of St. Colman’s and their friends, but then I have no idea what is in the Mind of God and as for what is in the hearts of FOSCC – well “Judge not, lest ye be judged”.@Praxiteles wrote:
It means literally: the point on which everything stands or falls. The crux of the matter.
Thanks
Prax. As I said I don’t understand Latin, so can you tell me what does punctum stantis aut cadentis mean ?
Prax. How many times do I have to tell you – I don’t read German, or French or Latin or Spanish etc etc.
Hi Prax.
Could you please give us a reference to the book published in Germany that you mentioned. Title, Author, etc.
@Praxiteles wrote:
Gianlorenzo!
Re posting 1177, I came across this in an article by Anthony Delarue and thought it summed up what you were saying: “So the fittings of our churches are expected to be art, reflecting Christ and His creation, not just a
furnisher’s decorations, and they are to be Christian art?that is, firmly rooted in our tradition, both
spiritual and cultural. This inherently excludes any transient fashion or the adoption of inappropriate
secular styles”.Unfortunately this or any other argument falls on deaf ears. There are none so deaf as those who will not hear. There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Where was that photograph taken from? It looks like it was taken from the ground of the Palace. It is a wonder that those in charge in Cobh never thought to produce a calendar featuring the cathedral. They must be kicking themselves right now!!!!!:D
Looking at the floor in Armagh Cathedral I can’t help thinking that all those miles of barley twist and acres of celtic squiggle can’t be too easy on anyone with a delicate constitiution – it’s all too fussy for a liturgical setting. Just take a look at the black and white tiles on the floor of Bordeaux Cathedral and one is struck immediately by the dignity of its restraint.
If something fancy was wanted in Armagh a mosaic should have been put in.
All those tiles, no matter how expensive, just can’t lift the mind from thinking of an elegant water closet in an upmarket hotel.Re. post #1108
POW is an authentic Church document.
BQ
Brian, the Sunday Mass leaflet is an ‘authentic’ church document, but no one would say that it is an authoritative church document.
My question is: Do you think that POW is an ‘authoritative document’?
And if so, whose authority has it?I have to say that I was surprised, to say the least, that such an article could appear in the Irish Times.
A few weeks ago there was an article by Fr. Paddy Jones in the same publication which referred to the “concern” of the Irish Bishops regarding An Bord Pleanala’s decision on Cobh Cathedral, without any reference to the fact that he, Fr. Jones, was a party to the applicants case and that he was also instrumental in the drawing up of the Guidelines for Places of Worship in the 2000 Planning Act.
I recently learned that the secretary of FOSCC asked for a right to reply to Fr. Jones’ article and didn’t even receive the courtesy of a reply from the News Editor of the IT. So much for Ireland’s premier newspaper.Sirius,
Do you actually know Adrian O’Donovan? Or does it infuriate you that Adrian O’Donovan and his committee turned out to be right and whatsmore on the winning side in the Cobh dispute? As usual you come on to throw stones. Have you nothing constructive to say?
The old order is dying and giving way to the new. Thank God.brianq wrote:Hi PraxYou said
BQ: I don’t think you’re correct here. The desire for a more appropriate proximity between altar and congregation is now – if maybe not directly after Vatican 2 -about expressing more clearly the nature and reality of the People of God. When we gather for worship Christ is truly present. We gather as one people within which the priest has a special ministry. Christ is truly present in the priest when he presides over the assembly as well of course but the guidelines produced by the Irish Bishop’s conference are clear that the primary symbol is the unity of the assembly – the People of God. This undestanding of the People of God has developed slowly since the beginning of the Twentieth Century and reached a high point in Vatican 2. It’s still developing now. The question is how should our understanding of the People of God be manifest in the church interior? We have come to realise that perpetuating an exclusive zone into which only male ordained may enter contradicts the reality of what the People of God is and this in turn undermines the liturgy. Does that mean the wholesale reorganisation of historic church interiors? No. Whatver is proposed must take into account the integrity of the architecural setting and must be sensitive to the particular faith community. However, to freeze the interior in a moment of time is to deny the constant striving for understanding of who we are and of our Christian mission.
Dear BQ,
Like many modernist you have the whole thing backwards. Christ is Truly Present in the Eucharist. He is also present in the priest as he is “in persona Christi”, and in the assembly. What you refer to as ” an exclusive zone into which only male ordained may enter” is in fact a place set aside, not for Man, but for God. We do not attend church to worship Man. What is undermining the Liturgy, as you put it, is this elevation of the “People of God” above God Himself.
You refer to ‘guidelines produced by the Irish Bishops’, can I presume you are referring to ” A Place of Worship”.
I will quote what Dr. Alan Kershaw, Advocate of the Apostolic Tribunal or the Roman Rota, said regarding this publication at the An Bord Pleanala Oral Hearing re. Cobh Cathedral, in Midleton:
” It must be stated that this publication was never put to a vote by the [Irish] Episcopal Conference and it was never submitted to the Holy See for recognitio meaning that it has never been approved. Hence this publication is not vested with vim legis and thereby is totally devoid of any authority.….. The book “A Place of Worship contains nothing more than opinions, hence it must be disregarded.”
I don’t know who has been instructing you regarding Catholic Liturgy, but I suggest that you look to the authentic Church document on this, and in particular, I would suggest you start with the writings of our present Holy Father. 🙂@brianq wrote:
Hi
I was the architect for the new Benedictine monastery in rostrevor, Co. Down. Have a look at: http://www.benedictinemonks.co.uk/
BQ
Any chance that you could post a ground plan as it is not available on the link you posted?
Well it looks like Round 2 in Cobh.!!!!
The FOSCC put out a reply to the Bishop’s Letter. See below:
THE FRIENDS OF ST. COLMAN’S CATHEDRAL PRESS RELEASE
30TH JULY 2006Contrary to what is asserted in the letter from Bishop Magee which was read at all Mass in the Diocese 29th/30th July 2006, the Friends once again would point out that the Sanctuary of Cobh Cathedral is in complete conformity with the present liturgical norms promulgated in the Institutio Generalis Romani Missalis. Sufficient expert advice has been provided to prove this point. Also we regard it as a gross misrepresentation to suggest that the people of Cobh have been unable fully, actively and consciously to participate in the Church’s Liturgy.
The letter also mentions the property rites guaranteed to Religious Denominations by Bunreacht na hEireann. We believe this to be irrelevant in the context of An Bord Plean
