Gianlorenzo
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Here is the full text of Jim Kidney’s letter to the Great Island News regarding the current deplorable state of Cobh Cathedral.
Was speaking to one of the Friends recently and it appears that they did follow up on the illegal taking of core samples from the mosaic floors but the then architect Denis Deasy and the present administration have no intention of doing anything about it. You know how it is – one law for the ‘rich’ and one law etc etc. No wonder members of the HACK think they can flout the planning laws at will.
@Praxiteles wrote:
Yeah, I think he is but in Kanturk he is regarded more as the local liturgical al-Wahaabi!!
However, the real question is why can he do such an extensive make over of Kanturk church without planning permission and everyone else has to go through the whole expensive process to make a minor alteration to the front of the house? Are the al-Wahaabi above the law?
I don’t think so, but this particular al-wahaabi thinks he is.
Hi Prax,
Been away on a working holiday, missed you all. 😀 Some interesting development with the churches in Co. Cork.
Visited the Cathedral the other day and the crib has finally been taken down, though not removed from the Pieta Chapel. I suppose the ADM. thinks it is easier ,at this stage, to leave it, so as to be ready for next Christmas. The Cathedral is still in a disgraceful condition.:eek: They should be ashamed of themselves.
I don’t know whether the Steering Cmmtte; the HACK; or the ADM., is to blame, but they should all hang their heads in shame. Not one of them is fit to be in charge of a dog house never mind a building of such spiritual;cultural and heritage importance. They have become a standing joke with the people of Cobh.
It is about time the local authority took a hand in this. :confused:Praxiteles wrote:The Church of the Immaculate Conception, Kanturk, Co. COrkSomeone has mentioned to Praxiteles that fairly extensive alterations have been made in recent times to this church, including the removal of the central gates and one of the side gates from the altar fail. The gates are by McGloghlin of Dublin. Praxiteles has searched the Cork County Council Webpage but cannot find a planning application for this intervention to a protected structure.
It also seems that works have been carried out to the sanctuary. Was permission obtaind for this? What looks to be a new altar has been installed and a sort of predella has been provided for the reredos of the Hogh Altar. Who authorised this?
There also appears to be severa]
Would I be right in saying that the PP in Kanturk is none other than the Cloyne HACK Chairman, Canon John Terry, who was also involved with the debacle in Cobh?
It is hardly surprising that he feels that he can carry out works on the Church in Kanturk given the complete distain with which the HACK and friends view the planning authorities. I still remember ,with fury, how they dug us the mosaic sanctuary floor in St. Colman’s in order to “prove” that the cowboy they had imported from the UK could tear up the floor and relay it without any collatoral damage as per Cathal ‘wrecker’ O’Neill’s plans.@Praxiteles wrote:
St. Colman’s Cathedral, Cobh Co. Cork
Here is aphotograph of the interior taken in February 2007. You will note that the Christmas decorations are still hanging from the choir gallery. Can soem one tell me why the liturgically sensitive who are running Cobh Cathedral were so slovenly and lazy that they could get around to taking these decoration down at the end of the liturgical season?
I also notice that the Christmas crib was still hanginga round the place at Easter!!! WHat kind of liturgical insight is conveyed by this haphazard coincidence?
They finally took away the figures from the crib just before Easter and in the crib itself they inserted an “Easter Scene”. Now that the Easter Season has ended they have taken down the drapes etc. and the sign which told us that this was an “Easter Scene”, but the crib structure still remains. It is in the Pieta Chapel which has been hidden now for over six months. I expect they will leave the structure in place until next Christmas and it is likely that the Pieta Chapel will never be seen again.
On another note. The ornate cover of the Baptismal font was once again left swinging in mid air for about three months. This was recently rectified by a couple of “grannies” who went in and through trial and error discovered what turned out to be a fairly simple mechanism for returning the cover to its proper position on the font. It will never hang in mid air again.!!!!:)@THE_Chris wrote:
Reading those paragraphs, it seems to me that the entire law can be taken by both parties. The “For” crowd can read it and say they are perfectly in their rights to do it, and the “Against” crowd can read it and say that they have no right to do it. The law is wishy-washy in its makeup.
Especially 08, where the “For” crowd claimed they were respecting the Cathedral architecture, and the “Against” crowd saying they were not respecting it.
Both parties then go steaming into a battle, of the sort that has, regrettably, divided Cobh 🙁
The section of the Guidelines relating to the Catholic Church were drawn up under the guidance of Fr. Paddy Jones, Bishop John Magee and some friends following a number of meetings they had with the then Minister Martin Cullen. All very cozy.
As for steaming into battle, the church authorities in Cobh never really entered into battle in any meaningful sense as they were so confident they would get their way. They believed this up until June 2nd last year when the ABP ruling finally came out. If you were at the hearing in Midelton you will have seen that they made no attempt whatsoever to answer any of the points put up by An Taisce, The Georgian Society or the Friends. They saw no need to explain what they meant by “Liturgical Requirement”, and appeared confident that the Guidelines they had been involved in writing would be sufficient to win the day.
It is one of the stranger aspects of this whole saga that never has any member of the diocesan clergy felt the need to explain to the people what they meant by Liturgical Requirement – they just kept repeating the phrase as if that sufficed in itself.Interesting show on tomorrow evening Channel 4
Channel 4 Thursday 1st March 21:00Pugin: The God of Gothic
Tony Robinson, with the help of experts like Grand Designs’ Kevin McCloud, discovers how in just 20 working years, architect Augustus Pugin changed the face of Britain.Our experience of “dialogue” with diocesan authorities is that they will talk to you as long as things are moving in the direction they have decided upon. But in the end if you persist in your efforts to save your cathedral you will find that they will attempt to make it look as if it is you are the problem rather than their plans. At that point dialogue goes out the window, as does tolerance.
Nice to have you back Leo.
How are things going in Albany. Have you started fighting the changes yet?@Praxiteles wrote:
Here are some interesting comments on the use of the High Altar made by Cardinal Schoenborn of Vienna in the wake of a recent desision by the parish of St Rochus to resume using the High Altar of the parish church from the beginning of Advent 2006:
27. Januar 2007, 17:41
‘Wir sind Kirche’ fürchtet sich vor ‘lateinischen Messen’‘Wir sind Kirche’ fürchtet sich vor ‘lateinischen Messen’
Die umstrittene Gruppierung fordert Katholiken auf, nicht an „lateinischen Messen“ teilzunehmen und kritisiert Kardinal Schönborn, weil er in einer Pfarre die Erlaubnis gab, den Hochaltar wieder als Zelebrationsalter zu verwenden – Antwort von Schönborn
Wien (http://www.kath.net)
In Vorfeld des von Papst Benedikt geplanten Motu proprio zur erweiterten Freigabe des „Alten Ritus“ steigt in manchen Kreisen die Nervosität. In Österreich hat sich jetzt die Gruppe „Wir sind Kirche“ gegen eine “Gleichstellung von Eucharistiefeiern am Hochaltar und am Volksalter” gewandt und Katholiken aufgefordert, lateinische Messen nicht zu besuchen wie der „Standard“ berichtet. Die kirchlich nicht anerkannte Gruppe ortet darin “eine Verkürzung des Glaubens und eine einseitige Bevorzugung rückschrittlicher Tendenzen“. Der konkrete Hintergrund für die innerösterreichische Debatte ist die Wiener Pfarre St. Rochus, die mit Genehmigung von Kardinal Christoph Schönborn seit vergangenem 1. Adventsonntag den Hochaltar wieder als Zelebrationsalter verwendet. Für „Wir sind Kirche“ ist das „ein Schritt hinter das Zweite Vatikanische Konzil der 60er-Jahre“. Die Wiener Pfarre St. Rochus gehört seit Jahren zu den Pfarren mit einem sehr hohen Messbesucheranteil. Alleine am Sonntag gibt es vier heilige Messen, die immer sehr gut besucht sind.Der Wiener Kardinal Schönborn hat bereits in der Weihnachtsausgabe von Thema Kirche, dem Mitarbeitermagazin der Erzdiözese Wien, zu den Fragen Stellung genommen. KATH.NET dokumentiert die Stellungnahme im Wortlaut:
Um die Frage„Volksaltar†oder „Hochaltar” ist ein Streit ent*brannt. In einer Wiener Pfarre wurde beschlossen, wieder am barocken Hochaltar zu zele*brieren. Ein beweglicher Volks*altar sollte nur für die Famili*enmessen aufgestellt werden. Die Wiener Dechanten haben eine etwas besorgte Anfrage an mich gerichtet. Jemand hat diese Anfrage, die im Protokoll der Dechantenkonferenz stand, der Presse zugespielt (über die APA). So kam es zur medialen Aufregung, bis hin zu der köstlichen Meldung, von jetzt an werde der Pfarrer in dieser Kirche gegen die Wand predigen! Die von den Dechanten erbete*ne Stellungnahme bin ich ger*ne zu geben bereit, auch hier im größeren Kreis derer, die Thema Kirche beziehen. Die erste und wichtigste Fest*stellung: Entscheidend ist nicht, in welcher Richtung der Zelebrant am Altar steht, son*dern das, was auf dem Altar geschieht. Auf das„Geheimnis des Glaubens†sollen wir uns ausrichten, auf Christus, der in unserer Mitte ist, dessen Hin*gabe an den Vater für uns und für alle Menschen wir in der Eucharistie feiern. Seinen Tod und Seine Auferstehung ver*künden wir, da sie unter uns gegenwärtig werden. Das ist Mitte und Quelle und Höhe*punkt des christlichen Lebens, wie das Konzil mehrmals sagt. Daher die Frage anlässlich die*ses „Altarstreites”: Ist uns das genügend bewusst?
Zweite Feststellung: Beide Zelebrationsrichtungen sind berechtigt, und daher soll keine der beiden verdächtigt oder „ideologisiert” werden. Zelebriert wird weder „zum Volk” noch „zur Wand”, sondern zu Gott durch Jesus Christus im Heiligen Geist. Die Zelebration „zum Volk” gewendet hat den Sinn, dass wir uns alle, Priester und Gläubige, um Christus versammeln, den der Altar symbolisiert und dessen Leib und Blut auf dem Altar gegen*wärtig werden. Die Zelebration „Rücken zum Volk” ist keine Abwendung von den Gläubigen, sondern die gemeinsame Gebetsrichtung, Ausdruck des Weges, auf dem wir alle ge*meinsam zu Gott hin pilgern als Sein wanderndes Volk.
Dritte Feststellung: Das II. Vati*canum hat überhaupt nichts über die Zelebrationsrichtung gesagt. Erst 1969 heißt es in der Allgemeinen Einführung ins Messbuch (Nr. 262): „Der Hauptaltar soll von der Wand getrennt gebaut werden, so dass er leicht umschritten wer*den kann und auf ihm die Ze*lebration versus populum (zum Volk hin) ausgeführt werden kann … ” In der Neu*auflage von 2002 ist hinzuge*fügt: „Dies sollte der Fall sein,wo immer es möglich ist”. Die römische Kongregation hat diesen Zusatz freilich als Emp*fehlung, nicht als Verpflich*tung erklärt.
Vierte Feststellung: Die älteste christliche Gebetsrichtung ist die Richtung Osten. Die Juden beten nach Jerusalem gewandt, die Muslime Richtung Mekka, die Christen der aufgehenden Sonne zu, die Christus, den Auferstandenen, symbolisiert. Daher die jeweilige Baurich*tung der Synagogen, der Mo*scheen, der Kirchen. Die „Orientierung†der Kirchen, d. h. ihre „Ostung”, ist eines der „Ur*gesetze†des Kirchenbaues. St. Peter in Rom ist aus prakti*schen Gründen „gewestet”, da*her zelebriert der Papst gegen die Türen, die im Osten liegen, gewandt, und somit zum Volk. Es tut gut, daran zu erinnern, was „Orientierung†heißt.
Zuletzt ein persönliches Wort: Ich selber liebe beide Formen der Zelebrationsrichtung. Beide sind für mich voll tiefer Bedeutung. Beide helfen mir, Christus zu begegnen – und das ist ja der Sinn der Liturgie.
For goodness sake Prax. when are you going to realise that most of us do NOT understand German.:confused:
May we please have a summary of what all this is about? 😉@samuel j wrote:
think it did……..
It did. There are approx. 6/7 s one room appt. on top access from Roches’s Row – these are called Sarsfield Hogan Place and there are about 5 two/three roomed appartment’s below accessed from Church Street – these are called St. Mary’s Close after the old Anglican Church.
@LeoWong wrote:
A parishioner has now written a letter to the bishop about the Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception in Albany, NY. A letter from the Cathedral Pastoral Advisory Council may follow.
A Letter to Bishop Howard J. Hubbard
Leo Wong
Great News Leo. I hope other parishioners will now back this courageous lady and let their bishop know how they feel also.
@THE_Chris wrote:
Just so someone doesnt get misblamed 😀 That pic is not the Gerry Casey who was once in Cobh 🙂
You are right. Do you have a photo of Canon Casey ?
Re. # 2152 above what you see in pics 1,2, and 4 is damage to the original mosaic floor. This is the most worrying aspect, these tiles are irreplaceable in that they were made for this particular floor more than 100 years ago. The Steering Committee and the Trust company know this and have done nothing whatsoever to stop the rot.
Pic 3. is the new strip of mosaic laid when the new floor was installed. These new tiles are lifting all over the Cathedral and presumably as they are only c.9 years old replacing them should not be too much of a problem. What is interesting is that the contactor who laid these has not been asked to come and fix them. If this work had been done in a private home and this was the result I suspect there would be court proceedings by now.He has 5 years left. He turned 70 recently and the official retirement age is 75.
Therefore he has the opportunity to begin to put things right or, as is much more likely, he can continue wasting time and money on his ill conceived schemes. Any guesses ????Happy New Year to all.
Thank you to THE-Chris for the wonderful treat he has given us this Christmas. Please come back again on this or the Cobh site with any further images you might have.
Are you a photographer by profession?
Samuel J., I equally enjoy your contributions.
I had thought at one stage of making a photographic inventory of St. Colmans. Perhaps we could combine our efforts?“Chinese proverb. One picture is worth ten thousand words.”
THE-Chris.
Thank you for the wonderful images. I am experiencing vertigo when viewing some of them.
I have just being looking at your first contribution to this thread and given your obvious love of the cathedral I do not understand how you could view efforts to preserve it as sinister.Again going back to your original postings – what the media says about anything or anybody should be treated with the contempt that it deserves. Jouralists are the laziest morons one could ever encounter. It was not always this way and the present crop are trading on their predecessors authenticity and thereby fooling most of the people. But if you happen to know anything about a particular subject you will see who ignorant they are. Therefore, reverting back to your first postings, do not judge the people of Cobh, or the FOSCC for that matter, on what you might read in the newspapers. Be assured that the media do not have a clue what this is about.
For your information it is not about attacking the Church or Bishop Magee personally. it is about our Cathedral and our liturgy and the inate feeling in the people in Cobh that the masterpiece that is their cathedral should not be touched. For too long have they been castigated and treated with a contempt they do not deserve. It is so sad that we have come to this in Cobh.
Saying that, spare a thought for the people in all the various parishes and diocese in Ireland who have experience the destruction of their churches – for no good reason- on a whim. They have no voice. When they do raise their voice they are treated with ridicule and contemp and being faithful Catholics they subside and accept with broken hearts what is put before them. And what they have been told is not the truth
That is one of the great tragedies of the Church in Ireland. Not the only one, but a significant one. Because when the church building is destroyed is tears into the heart of the Church itself.The media will tell us that the crisis in the Irish Church is the child abuse issue – no argument, but while the numbers of priests involved in this can be counted on two hands the numbers who have been involved in the destruction of our churches can be numbered in the hundreds. I grant you that the evil perpetrated by a priest who abuses children cannot be compared with an iconoclast the effect of the latter has in general a much more profound effect on the local scene. It is very personal.
