Gianlorenzo
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I have been told that at the Conference in Ballincollig last week it was said that Richard Hurley was currently working on St. Mary’s Oratory in Maynooth. Can this be right, I was under the impression that Hurley had already wrecked that particular chapel long ago. Whatever is he doing now? Maybe he has been given this benighted building to work on again as no one else wants him next or near their churches.
@tomahawk wrote:
Sam,
As I have stated previously I was indifferent to the present row. The reason I entered this debate was because of the hypocritical attitude of some people using this site who have spent a long time being offensive and abusive to those they disagree with, however when they meet those people in a face to face setting they are courteous and charming.Of course if they didnt have the cover of a web name we wouldnt see half of these posts. I do agree with you that people are genuinely concerned with the fabric of the building I also believe that that concern is shared by people on both sides of the argument and I can say this because I have spoken to people from both sides. I wouldnt be a conspiricy theorist and believe that every move the authorities make has to be examined in detail for the hidden agenda. This should not be a them and us situation, if we leave out the re-ordering for a moment and concentrate on maintenance can we not agree everybody is on the same side.If we can manage to overcome that one who knows maybe we may find some bit of common ground on the bigger issue.I am convinced that as long as we have abuse and smart-ass comments we wont have progress on any issue.Really Tomahawk, this is getting to much. How do you know that people using this site are hypocritical. You presume to know who people on this site are and even claim to have met them face to face – how do you know all this? Have contributors to this site being knocking on your door identifying themselves to you and was this prior to or after you entered this debate.
Once again you are making hugh assumptions and believing them as fact.
As for you being indifferent previously – I am afraid I cant accept that, what with you being in contact with all those ‘sitting councillors in favour of the changes’ and you talking to all those ‘silent majority in Cobh and the Dioceses in favour of the changes’ – all that takes some time and effort, so please don’t try and say you were indifferent or you might be accused of being hyprocritical.
Again who have you spoken to on the other side of the debate, ie those, who you would maintain are in a minority, who are against the changes?
As for leaving out the re-ordering for a moment and concentrating on the maintenance, I am afraid that will not wash with the people of Cobh. They were sold this line before and contributed a lot of money for the restoration of their beloved Cathedral, only to have the re-ordering foisted on them at the last moment, when the money was already in. They will not be fooled again. As I said in a previous post, if the Bishop and the Restoration Committee gave solemn promises that the re-ordering was permanently off the agenda then they would get the money they will need for a proper restoration of the Cathedral.
As for finding ‘common ground’ on the big issue – what does that mean? Is it akin to Brian McCutcheon’s idea of ‘consultation’ whereby they held ‘information meetings’ AFTER the planning application had been submitted to Cobh Town Council.@tomahawk wrote:
There are a number of sitting councillors who support the changes and will be going forward for re-election next June. They are not “single issue “candidates but their position on the issue is well known.
Now read this carefully Tomahawk, so you can formulate an answer to this particular question.
Which councillors are you referring to and ,more importantly, how do you know they are in favour of the changes?I am afraid ‘their positiion being well-known’ cannot be true as they have all, other than Sean O’Connor, mostly fudged around the issue. So if what you say is true give us the names. You make a lot of unsubstantiated statements and expect them to be taken at face value, so now back up what you say with names and how you know they are in favour of the changes.
@tomahawk wrote:
The three lay members of FOSCC who accompanied Praxitelles to the conference were neither clerics or councillors!!
Do you ever answer a direct question – I was not talking about the FOSCC. I was wondering what you were doing in Ballincollig.
You know all Bishop Magee has to do is tell the people of Cobh that he has decided that there will be no re-ordering of the Cathedral and that he is going to ensure that the building is going to be repaired properly and maintained in the future. If he did that one simple thing he would regain the respect of most of the people and they would probably help him with funding the repairs.
Tomahawk, you were obviously at this conference in Ballincollig. That being so and given that you say you are not a cleric or on any of the diocesan committees you must be a member of the County Council. That being so, you purport to have an inordinate knowledge of the people of Cobh and the working of the HACK.
Are YOU the reason they keep getting away with illegal activities and get planning for appalling wreckovations?
We know they are buddy buddy with someone in Cork County Council as it is the only explanation for what has been going on.@samuel j wrote:
Should this not read “Bishop Magee of Bishop of Cloyne has cut a very large rod for his back in that he has set a precedent for disloyalty from his priests and disunity in general”
I would echo Gianlorenzos point “I cannot imagine who you have been speaking to, if you get the impression that there is a ‘silent majority in favour of this destruction.” With respect I fear you may have been talking to a very select group of YES MEN as I have spoken/discussed with many and I must say it always came out as a silent minority were in favour.
Heads are still in the sand I fear as this is not what the people want or ever wanted. Restoration of St.Colmans not anything else and thats what they/like I thought we were donating to…….
Take a look at St. Colman’s now….. a disgrace…. and all OUR money wasted………:mad:
Our money is being spent on Conferences at which the HACK try to persuade Cork County Council Planners that they know anything whatsoever about liturgy and/or architecture. We know they know absolutely knowing about the care and maintenance of a Protected Structure – witness the current state of the Cathedral. Have you seen the awful job that they have done on the mosaic floor just inside the door. When will these people learn that this is a very specialised job and you do not get the local tiler in to have a go. The Cloyne HACK are a disgrace – I wouldn’t give them a garden shed to maintain and protect.
I heard that at the Conference in the Oriel House last Friday when it came to the reporting back, Alex White referred various questions to the speakers to answer, but when it came to a question relating to liturgy and the fact that what the conference had heard was not authentic liturgy, he did not refer to the so-called experts and told a little story about inches and cms. and one about an inebriates journey around Scotland. What is he afraid of? If he and the HACK are so sure of what they are spouting all over the place, why shy away from questions?
Once again I hear that Fr. Danny Murphy, the Director of Diocesan Liturgy for Cloyne and author of the hilarious document ‘Liturgical Requirement, Text and Context” which was used in the attempted wrecking of Cobh Cathedral, sat on the sideline, as he did in Midleton.
From the sound of it all the ‘good old boys’ were at the Conference. They even had the great and illustrious Brian McCutcheon as one of the facilitators. What a come down in the world. It must because he lost them Cobh Cathedral.@tomahawk wrote:
I can assure you and all other readers that i am not a cleric, i am not involved in any church committee, i am not employed by the Parish of Cobh or the Diocese of Cloyne, I am just a humble lay person. When the present controversy began I was indifferent to it as I prefer to attend religious ceremonies in one of the smaller churches in the parish. I DID attend the oral hearings in Midleton and heard the arguments from both sides.As time has moved on I do believe there is a silent majority in support of Bishop Magee but the best way to test this would be democratically in the ballot box and the friends will have an opportunity to do this next June if they so wish. There is a sitting councillor who makes representations for them already so he wouldnt count as his support base is very wide but let the friends put up a “single issue candidate’ and see what the real support is .
If what you say is true, why not a plebisite in Cobh and the Diocese on the question of the Cathedral re-ordering. I cannot imagine who you have been speaking to, if you get the impression that there is a ‘silent majority in favour of this destruction.
Regarding ‘putting up a single issue candidate, I doubt the Friends would be bothered – have you ever read the minutes of the Cobh Town Council meetings, – the more than sensible people in FOSCC have better things to do, like watching what the Trustees are cooking up regarding the Cathedral.Tomahawk – Whoever Prax might be, I think you must be a cleric working in the diocese as your reference to the ‘so-called friends’ is exactly how the clergy in Cobh referred to the FOSCC
Of note, on a tangent, is that recently a friend waited and watched at the time of distribution of Holy Communion and noted that the line waiting for the priest was substantially longer than that queueing for the Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion (EMHC). This was in Cobh Cathedral, which as you must all know by now was saved from destruction by the Friends of St. Colman’s Cathedral (FOSCC). In other words it would seem that people respond, sometimes instictively, to the architectural ‘statement’ of a church ,such as St. Colman’s, even if the true significance of that statement eludes them. Unfortunately it also eludes those in positions of authority. Where does that leave us?
In my experience it leaves us Nowhere.
All architecture,being a creation of man, leaves us with some meaning, some more profound then others. It would seem that those ‘in charge’ of the church in Ireland, either are whofully ignorant of this or are deliberately destructive. In the end the distiction is lost on the faithful, who, in the main, have been persuaded to believe/follow their local priest in all matters. If one is so funtunate to have a priest who acutally believes in what he does and is willing to espress that fact, then there is no dilemna, you follow.I know I have brought this up before, but today the middle aisle on the southern side was littered with bits of stone from the overhead stone arches of the clerstory. When this first started a few years ago it was concentrated in one area, but now the dusting of stone runs from the pulput to the back of the church. It has been raining heavily in the last two days and after rain the amount of stone and chips raining down inside the cathedral increases. At different time large pieces of stone have fallen. All of this has been pointed out to the administrator of the Cathedral but so far nothing has been done.
The recent report by Mr. Cacciotti, the Cobh Town Architect doesn’t mention this problem at all, as one presumes he did not see the stone dusting as it had been cleaned up, as it is regularly.
Again one must assume that water is getting into the roof somehow and tracking down the ribs of the roof onto the stone capitals which are disintegrating as a result.
This means that all three major jobs which have, so far, been undertaken on Cobh Cathedral, at a cost of over €3,000,000 have been badly done and have left the Cathedral, in some cases worse off than before any work was started.
1. The cleaning of the exterior walls have left the walls in a far worse state than they were originally.
2. The installing of underfloor heating has seen the throwing out of a beautiful wood block floor and its replacement with an inferior parquet floor. This has also resulted in the lifting of mosaic tiles all over the church due to the contracting and expanding of the floor.
3. Re-roofing the Cathedral. While this has stopped the worst of the leaks and flooding which used to occur, we are still left with a situation where water is ingressing somewhere at roof level and this is destroying the stone of the capitals of the pillars in the church. This we can see, how much more damage is being done that is not evident to the naked eye?In any other situation shoody work such as this would see the owners insisting that the contractors return and fix the problems, but this is Cobh and the money spent by the Trustees and the Steering Committee is not their own money (it was collected from the people of Cobh and the Diocese) and they couldn’t care less. Seemingly the new secretary of the Restoration Fund doesn’t think there is anything at all amiss in the Church. Gives one great hope for the future!!!!!!
#3523
“The repacement of the big tabernacle with a smaller version was a bitter miscalculation. Who turned these charlatans loose on an unsuspecting Ireland?”The thinking goes something like this. God must deminish, that Man may be elevated !!!!
@Praxiteles wrote:
Strange is it not that McCutcheon Mulcahy never mentions Cobh Cathedral in its portfolio of prestigeous clients and projects? Are they ashamed of their involvement in the effort to assist in wrecking the interior of the Cathedral for a bit of pottage or do they not wish to be associated with the discredited set of individuals who hired them to smooth the plannig path or is it something about themselves or is it something else that causes this company to draw a curtain of astounding silence over its (continuing) involvement with the HACK and the would-be-wreckers in Cobh?
Just paid a visit to their site. It has to be the most boring site I have come across in a while.
Prax. Do you really think that they are going to advertise their failures. As for their current involvement that remains to be seen – can they really be that stupid to get involved with the HACKers et al again.I heard from an informed source today that there was some talk of ‘widening the windows’ in Ballintotis .Can you imagine what the ‘wreckers of Killavullen’ and their ilk would do here. I mention Killavullen as it seems that what has taken place in Ballintotis thus far, is exactly what happened in Killavullen. Both were Br. Riordan churches with retro Sacristies and both are, unfortunatley under the one and only HACK, there are other similarities but one has to be discreet in these matters. All in all, it looks as if Ballintotis is destined for the ‘Buddah’ treatment as well. But then who is surprised that the Cloyne HACK, not only have absolutely no idea of what Catholic/Christian architecture actually represents, they are so ill educated that they accept what ever is in vogue regardless of it antecedence.
I realise that on this forum we have seen the destruction of many many churches in Ireland. But if one took just those in the Cloyne Diocese, under the ‘protection’ of the Cloyne HACK, one would have to acknowledge that the modern iconoclasts and wreckers have been very successful in Cloyne.
Do the HACK ever, ever look at the results of their decisions?
Do they care?
Is their out-dated ‘spirit of Vatican II’ (mis) ideology so potent that they cannot see the writing on the wall?
The saddest thing about this entire debacle is that there are so many people out there who feel betrayed by their priest and in many instances it is not they who are to blame, but the ideologues in the Cloyne HACK.They have a lot to answer for.
😮 😮 😮 Well, Beached or otherwise, it looks as if they have struck again. I have just heard that the Sacristy of St. Colman’s Church in Ballintotis, Midleton, (Cloyne Diocese) has been demolished – and not a whiff of planning permission.
Maybe ‘Daniel’ will be the planning authorities in County Cork !!!!:confused:
@Praxiteles wrote:
St. Peter and Paul’s, Killmallock, Co. Limerick
Built to plans drawn by JJ. McCarthy in 1879, this church represents a significant advance in the evolution of Gothic revival churches in the North Cork Region – albeit located just over the County Limerick border.
#3157
The iron work and doors look good in these shots. Do you think that someone from Kilmallock could come and have a work with the ‘stewards’ of St. Colman’s in Cobh and let them know how it is done.@Praxiteles wrote:
The idea strikes me that we could run an opinion poll and let the the viewers, all 200,000 of them, decide the issue and it might cause the HACK to muster up the courage to go.
The question that could be put is a simple one:
Do you think that the Cloyne HACK should resign in the wake of their recommendation to wreck the interior of St. Colman’s Cathedral, Cobh, Co. Cork?
Answers should also be kept simple: Yes or NO.
Perhaps the administrator could set it up on the front page with all the poll gagets!
YES YES YES
