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Thank you Archie,
You and publicrealm have been a great help.
I did speak to the senior planner and challenged him on his opinion. He was none to happy but could not support his opinion with anything more than the reference to “total area”
At this stage he will not return my call and has put up the iron curtain. To be honest, I am considering notifying the LA that I am going to build without PP to force the matter into court.
A little stupid and pigheaded perhaps, but can anybody suggest an alternative?
I have recently applied to the local authority for pp to extend our home. This is a modest extension that has already been granted to over 30 houses in the estate. While the local authority has no difficulty with the extension in principle they will not grant PP as they believe there is Unauthorised Development on-site (the garage structure with 24sqm internal and 27sqm footprint/external) and want it regularised with an application for retention.
This will take another 12 weeks at least, which I do not have as we want construction work completed prior to the birth of a new baby.
The only information that I received from the local authority to support their external measurement/building footprint logic is a reference to the term “total area†found in Class 3, Article 6, Part 1 of the Planning & Development Regulations 2001 which states “
“The total area of such structures constructed, erected or placed within the curtilage of a house shall not, taken together with any other such structures previously constructed, erected or placed within the said curtilage, exceed 25 square metresâ€
There would seem to be no definition of “total area†in current planning legislation so it is a matter of opinion or interpretation. However “Gross Floor Space†is defined as:
“by measuring the internal measurement of the floor space on each floor of a building (including internal walls and partitions), any incidental carparking space for persons occupying or using the disregarding any floor space provided for the parking of vehicles by persons occupying or using the buildings should be disregarded.â€
In my opinion (which I accept may be wrong) a more logical definition of total area would be the sum of all Gross Floor Spaces. To interpret “total†to imply “External†or “Footprint†defies common sense, logic and reason.
Any advice, comments or clarification (even if you disagree) would be welcome.
They refuse to accept an architect’s certificate and will not clarify their logic in writing.
HOw can I make them see sense?
My thoughts also, but unfortunately the local authority is insisting on working with external measurements which means my building is being classed as unauthorised development (24sqm internal and 27sqm external) requiring retention. This will cost me at least 12 weeks which I don’t have. .I was trying to find some previous case study that might persuade them it is reasonable to work with an internal measurement as total area cannot be clarified.
Thanks for you help.
Hi all, posted this last week. Have looked long and hard to try and clarify this but am having no luck. If anybody has ant experience of this please post. Or if you know of any previous cases before the board, please reference. Thanks, John
No part of your structure can protrude onto his land, not even his air space. Just accept you will need to build far enough back to ensure no part of the structure passes over the mid-point of the fence.
The same will apply to him if he extends at a later stage.
Have built several garages and extensions using a Raft. I would suggest leaving the concrete harden for a few days before building blocks. I assume that the raft will also be the finished floor which will save you having to pour concrete a second time. Be careful with your levels and pipes as you will not have a second chace ro correct any problems.
You will hear lots of horror stories of rafts, but for a small single story structure, especially if the ground is suspect, they are ideal. Use plenty of steel, especially around the edge,(where the walls will sit) and you will have no problems.
Please clarify how old the house is as this will have are a large impact on establishing the legalities or the situation. I have heard that on some old maps a smybol/character written next to the wall indicated rights/ownership.
My gut feeling is to try to solve it with your neighbour. Would he be interested in extending also? and if so you could both agree to build on the boundary wall, reducing building cost and creating more floor space.
Web advertisement simply read “Derelict cottage on 3/4 Acre Site”. Any other comments were sales talk from the agent.
I did challenge him on this point but he said that he had disclosed all the facts available to him at the time. Your principles are to be admired but such malpractice is so common, if the agent even received a warning letter or phone call I would be surprised.
The selling agent did not disclose the true facts and said there would be “no problem” getting PP, but needless to say I was suspicious, hence my post and research to previous PP.
I am trying to get a app to see the files and will hopefully post tomorrow evening.
Fair point. But in fairness, I have contacted two members by private message to say thanks for their contribution.
I have checked the planning history and PP was refused to date on three separate occasions by different applicants. I am trying to get to the local authority to view the planning file and discuss it with the planners. As soon as I have something concrete, I will post my findings.
As a non-professional member, I do greatly appreciate the feedback from professional members and believe that is this balance and sharing of opinions that makes archiseek so successful.
Believe me, I am just as eager to post again, but first need to clarify the facts. Once again, thanks to everybody who has posted to date.
John
This information is certainly helpful but Class 3 of Exempted Development refers to “total area” rather than “gross floor space”. Can anybody clarify is there a dirfference?
Also, it is clearly defined from above hoe to calculate “gross floor space” but again can anybody enlighten us how to calculate “the total area of such structures”?
A speedy reply would be greatly appreciated.
I did find this:
‘‘floor area’’ in relation to a building means the bounded by the inner finished surfaces of the enclosingwalls, or, on any side where there is no enclosing wall, the outermost edge of the floor on that side and in calculating the area of a building or part of a building there shall included in such area the space occupied by any walls, shafts, ducts or structure within the area being measured;
“http://www.environ.ie/DOEI/DOEIPol.nsf/0/35d32b901ee51d3d80256f0f003bc83e/$FILE/Buildingregs.pdf
Any thoughts?
You are a wealth of knowledge. Is there any change you could be more specific in that case. It would be a great help.
Overall. basement is about 5ft below front street level, In the back garden, the bottom floor is about 4ft below finished ground level of all house within sight.
Does anybody know of a test case that many have explored this issue?
I have no doubt that Planning Authorties take this view. But can anybody expailn the legal justification for it. The Planning Act would seem to be vey vague. The reference is “above ground level” rather than any mention of first and second floor. Surely the site, street level etc have to be taken into account?
