BTH
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Its real alright! It’s extremely simple and elegant and hits the quay walls with a minimum of fuss… My panorama at the top didn’t quite work out so thats maybe why it looks a bit strange as does the copper box on the right hand side…
Yeah, Galway Crystal is a great/awful example! Its probably soon to be demolished though – the site is up for sale with residential zoning… What a site for something fantastic to go up, right at the gateway to Galway city! What are the chances though….
@Aidan wrote:
Thats the first phase of the Treasury Holdings project. Its being built for PWC (although they won’t own it)
http://www.treasuryholdings.ie/development/project_detail.asp?id=35&category=Office&cat=3
Going to that link has really depressed me – I’d forgotten just how abysmal the Spencer Dock development is going to be….
Sorry to interrupt the cork thread but the same problem is starting to afflict the western quays in Dublin – See the Bargaintown development for the ultimate in completely pointless corner “features” – as if the narrow street it addresses is worthy of such aggrandisement.
A very fair reply from Frank McDonald there, squarely answering some of O’Callaghan’s more hysterical claims…
St Stephens Green Centre has to fall into the Postmodern category – It’s very “late Venturi” vith it’s massive clock inside and applied facade decoration… On one level it’s a bit of fun and I can remember being blown away by the place when it was new and I was only 10 or something! On every other level its a nightmare though…
From the ridiculous to the simply banal – the Ulster Bank offices on George’s Quay are one of the worst examples of bog standard Postmodern – contrast with the building next door on Moss St/Townsend St. which is essentially exactly the same except without the applied decoration.
The incorporation of the major warehouses is exemplary – they have been beautifully restored and create a really interesting heart to the shopping centre. It’ll be great when the planned restaurants and cafe’s open up and activate the spaces. The malls themselves, though somewhat lacking in natural light owing to the high density, have great personality and individuality within a very controlled and tasteful palette of materials. I have to say I really enjoyed just walking around inside the building which isn’t something I can say about any other shopping centre! And the escalator space with all the blue lights is really cool and sci-fi!
The rear and side of the scheme arent so exciting but the manner in which the multi-storey carpark has been screened with the hotel is also exemplary. Loading bays and access appear to have been hidden away under the building and have minimal impact externally.
I could be really picky and point up a few niggles and issues with various things but the net result is still a great, visionary piece of urbanism, shopping centre design and an example to developers throughout the country of how things should be done.
Posted by Lexington:
“Referring to Mr. O’Callaghan’s reply as ‘arrogant’ I think is somewhat arrogant in itself – I’m not critiquing anyone’s personal character here – but I’m simply saying that his reply, as far as I’m concerned is a clear indication of how importantly held his work is to him. It’s easy for cynics to cite ‘money grabbing’ etc etc – it’s an easy stereotype…”It’s a clear indication that Mr O’Callahan thought that by having a critical report about his developments circulating in the media that his reputation would be harmed, that potential tenants may be put off and that potentially there may be more resistance to his future plans for flooding Cork with more architectural dross. Please don’t try and tell me that this guy or any other successful developer of this magnitude actually cares about the ARCHITECTURE (for that is what this forum and Frank McDonald’s article is about) of what he builds. What they care about is square footage, getting through planning and getting the thing built as cheaply as possible. And yes this may be a stereotype, but it’s one I, in practice, have found to be absolutely true – and nothing in O’Callaghan’s projects or in his attitude as displayed in his reply to McDonald’s article point to him being any different.
Am I arrogant? Possibly when it comes to architecture. I have very strong views borne from a passionate interest in the subject. Maybe it’s my frustration in seeing some of the crap thet is being inflicted upon our cities and towns that makes me so judgemental and negative in some of my posts. Ill stand by my views – Lavitts Quay is a disaster and set’s a frightening precedent for the rest of the development of the quays. I don’t care what it covers up or what was there before. What I see before me right now is a bloated, formless mass of masonry and glass – no attention to proportion, scale or materiality, just a jumble of “wallpaper” facades topped by overscaled roof forms which fail miserably to mask additional floorspace. Can someone please post a picture here so that people can make up their own minds as my words cannot describe how awful it really is.As for the rest of Lexington’s last post – It’s a great reply and it spells out his position and views superbly. I don’t agree with a lot of what he’s saying but then that’s what this place is all about – debate and conflicting opinions and trying to understand that we are all coming from differing angles and viewpoints. It’s not about right or wrong, good and bad – even if some of my more inflammatory posts can sometimes go a little down that line!
I still think for example that any justification of Merchant’s Quay shopping centre can’t mask the simple fact that it is, and always has been, a seriously ugly building. Just because it was built when the economy was in the doldrums doesn’t excuse it from criticism now. And it’d take a lot more than a new facade treatment to improve a fundamentally flawed layout – how will this stretch of Cork’s Quayside ever be brought to life with nothing but loading bays and fire exits to activate the street edge?
The reality is, and this is why Frank McDonald went so far back as to criticsze something built in 1989, that Merchant’s Quay makes probably the biggest negative impact on the city visually – moreso as it, along with the Bus Station, marks most people’s first point of arrival at the city centre when coming from any part of the country. It’s a disgrace to Cork and something needs to be done with it urgently.
Anyway, ranting again… But opinions matter!
I think that this reply basically sums up all that’s bad with developers in this country – breathtaking arrogance, no willingness to accept past mistakes (the merchant’s quay shopping centre is truly indefensable no matter what the ecomomic climate was at the time), and a general sense that he believes that all development is good development… For god’s sake the Lavitts Quay development is one of the most disgusting things I have ever seen and I’d challenge anyone to defend it. In many ways its worse than Merchant’s Quay because so much money has been thrown at it that the end result could have easily been something with a bit of grace… Exactly the same is true of Mahon Point – another completely soulless tarmac desert with some tin boxes thrown around and a bit of copper to make it “interesting”, It’s Blanchardstown/Liffey Valley/Tallaght all over again and it doesnt work! Why do you think all of the above are looking at major redevelopment plans already involving streets and places and mixed uses.
I’m not saying that I totally agree with McDonald’s article – there are lots of smaller scale developments of high quality going on and a great energy in the city at the moment. Ballincollig Town Centre is a very interesting looking scheme and I’m looking forward to seeing it in the flesh. But I’d rather have Frank McDonald, someone who knows something about architectural quality and good urban spaces, lecture me than some money grabbing developer…I’ll try and get some more photos up here ASAP. There is lots going on in Galway and unfortunately most of it isn’t even close to the standard of the City Museum. A few notable examples are the hideous apartments going up at Ravens Terrace which are completely changing the character of the Claddagh Basin, the bizarre sheathing of the Bon Secours hospital on the dublin road with shiny golden panels – really vulgar although the rest of the redevelopment looks promising – and the Las Vegas-esque Bailey Point in Salthill – a towering wedding cake which has been plagued by construction problems.
I’d like to say I have some nice stuff to post as well but I can’t really think of any just now…
Time to resurrect this thread I think…
Heres a couple of pics of the nearly complete Galway City Museum by the OPW.
I’ll have to get more photos of it as it’s quite an interesting building and quite nicely detailed as you’d expect from OPW. I pass the site almost every day and I must admit that having hated the building at first it’s now beginning to grow on me.
I really wish however that they had handled the service enclosure on the roof of the building a bit more sensitively. It literally looks like a portacabin dumped up there and it definitely did not appear on the renderings or the scheme model… Even if they had clad the whole thing in metal louvres or something it would be an improvement…
Loveley photos of the cinema there and I must say I really like the idea behind it and a lot of the individual architectural flourishes. Unfortunately the overall composition, taking in the hotel frontage and the cinema (as seen from Lough Atalia Rd. and further back at the railway) is a total and utter mess – too many things happening, a really awkward junction between the hotel and the Cinema and a very badly handled roofscape with all sorts of services popping up over the copper edging.
The view as approached from the Dublin Road is even worse, revealing acres of blank panelled wall topped by a huge rendered box that crashes unceremoniously into and completely dwarfs one of the (fantastic) copper sheathed cinema forms.
The hotel should be interesting, however I do question the wisdom of a 5 star hotel literally wedged between the busiest arterial road in Galway on one side and a fairly cheap and cheerful retail park on the other… Apparently a lot of the rooms overlook internal “zen” courtyards which could be very nice. However I’d be a very disappointed guest if I was shoved into one of the rooms directly overlooking the cinema carpark and “Smyths Toys”.
Sorry for being so critical but it really is disappointing that a good initial concept and a design with great flair has been forced into lots of compromises that really detract from the finished product.
Anyway, more to the point, the proposed scheme looks like yet another eyesore for the quays, yet another “feature” on a corner without meaning or historic precedent along similar lines to the Bargaintown development across the river. At this rate the second “phase” of redevelopment of the western quays will end up even less visually appealing than the legoland apartments of the first.
The quays do not need a series of architectural “statements” and “features” screaming across at each other on every street corner. The quays need to form a more modest “grain” to allow the important buildings due precedence. As such the An Taisce sketch looks like an exemplar or the sort of massing and simple detailing which should be mandatory on such sites whether a georgian exists on it or not. Personally I would like to see the building retained although I can fully understand the economics etc. of it’s demolition. I’m much more concerned about the dross that will replace it.
Wow, that’s pretty shocking alright – but on the other hand it could have been a whole lot worse! It’ll be interesting to see how those balcony things along the top work out (at the moment it sort of looks like a take on the “battlement” idea), but otherwise it seems to be of at least reasonable quality – much like the rest of the scheme. Are these apartments or offices?
Hafele provide all the nescessary fixings, rails, handles, locks, stops – basically everything you need for any type of sliding or folding door you can think of – http://www.haefele.com
Any decent joiner / carpenter should be able to make and fit the nescessary components to whatever type of doors you choose. Thats how I did mine (two sheeted timber sliding doors meeting on a corner) and it worked out perfectly…
All the best!Brian’s images arent a million miles away from what is currently half finished in Eyre Square- better materials and a purer concept in use but the general ratio of green to hard surface, the stepped terraces and the routes through the space are all very reminiscent of the scheme as proposed. I still think the finished product will be great, even moreso now that the kingston cowboys are gone – not only did they sneak off the job in disgrace but the general standard of workmanship on the completed parts of the square is abysmal. Some of the paving looks ready for ripping up and replacement already.
I must get some decent photos to load up here! Could anyone give me a crash course in how to display pics on the site??3k sounds like a ridiculously small amount for anyone to be charging for the full service of obtaining planning, tendering, contract administration, site visits snagging etc which would be al inclusive in the percentage costs for full architectural services. Most people I know who are doing one off houses for people, whether technicians or architects (and either as nixers or otherwise) are charging at least 3k to bring a house of over 2000 sqft to planning stage and no further.
Whoever is offering to see your house to completion for that money is either doing you a serious favour or is severely inexperienced and does not have a clue how much work is involved in producng tender packages, construction packages, detail design and the general hassle of liasing with builders. Of course you could be planning to project manage the whole thing yourself in which case you’d probably be wise to look into how much time you’d need to take out of work (always much much more than you’d think) and to work out how much earnings you’d be losing as a result…
A good architect will invariably lead to a smoother, more successful project and wil increase your chances of getting exactly what you want for your money. Technicians / draftsmen / engineers are more likely to stick to the mundane and easy to achieve and you can guarantee your house will look exactly like about 500 other pvc covered horrors throughout the country.My point is that the centre of Limerick is extremely unfriendly to pedestrians whereas Galway, through effective pedestrianisation, has managed to create a city centre which is completely free from through traffic. As a result it is a much more pleasant place to be. I’d be amazed if anyone disagreed. Granted the shannon tunnel will provide some relief for Limerick city centre but It will still have the wide-open, windswept aspect that it currently has. I know that limerick has small pockets of medieval character but they are very secondary to the dominant grid pattern.
I would contend that Galway’s success as a place to be is actually due to it’s compact and comfortable core. This small area encompasses everything from very high rates of residential occupancy right in the centre of the city, a huge variety of bars and nightlife, eating places, offices and public buildings. This adds to the sense of Galway as being a vibrant and exciting place to live and to be. Limerick simply does not have that benefit.Yes, the Headford road is a disaster zone, but, like other areas of the city centre in Galway, plans are afoot to transform the area. A huge application has been lodged to transform the awful shopping centre, creating new external streets, a much expanded Dundrum-style shopping and entertainment centre and a gateway building at the ring-road side which will contain a new municipal gallery. From what I have seen it’s not a bad scheme and will have the effect of properly extending the city centre out along the Headford road. It’ll be a matter of time before similar developments are proposed for the retail park side of the road.
I have to laugh at those dismissing Galway as being “full of roundabouts”. As I seem to recall Limerick has a fair amount of them as well…. As well as plenty of crappy retail parks. In fact didn’t they just build the new county offices (fantastic building but bloody awful context) as an extention of the nearby retail park?Anyway, I realize that all these arguments are pretty pointless! Its the case that both cities have positives and negatives. Its only my opinion that Galway has more going for it as a place to live, work, study, socialise etc…
By the way just to be really really pedantic, Galway is still officially the third largest city in Ireland with a population of 65,832. Limerick city contains 54,023 people. Of course Limerick’s actual population whan the county areas are taken into consideration is closer to 87,000. However were areas such as Barna and Oranmore, which are just outside Galway’s city boundary taken into account in a similar way the Galway figure would be closer to 80,000. Add to that the very rapid increase in Galway’s population which is ongoing and there isn’t really too much to call when it comes to population.
jimg wrote:Galway has a smaller population than Limerick and is dwarved economically by Limerick. Limerick and Cork have “grand” centres]Not so sure about the supposed “anti social problems” you mention. As someone who lives and works in Galway city centre I can honestly say it’s one of the safest feeling places I have ever been at any time of the day or night. Sure there are rowdies about and it gets as messy as anywhere else on St.Patricks Day. However the overriding feeling in Galway is relaxed and friendly and it is a place that benefits rather than suffers from its nightlife and the “party” atmosphere. Galway has many other faults of course, the vast majority to do with poor planning and traffic chaos. However it is still a city in transition with huge land-banks on the verge of opening up right in the city centre. Proposals are in action to move the bus depot and goods yards away from the area behind the Great Southern in Eyre Sq. opening up a swathe of development land from the square to Lough Atalia. The first moves are being made to remove harbour activity from the city centre docks to a newly constructed facility thus clearing the way for marina and dockland developments replacing the current ugly array of scrapheaps, fuel tanks and wasteland. The potential for creating a proper city centre for Galway is huge. It remains to be seen if that opportunity will be grasped or not…
As for Limerick, Its a place I just can’t warm to. Ok, so it has more of a city feel than galway but my overriding impression is of wide open streets clogged with traffic and a general dullness about the place – it’s a bit like an english provincial town in that respect and especially since the ill advised Cruises St. development – nice idea but so poorly executed in 80s english high st. style. Give me Galway’s characterful, colourful winding streets any day. The riverside is developing in a haphazard way with clashing building styles all screaming for attention. The Clarion Hotel is a downright monstrosity – no Idea how that got away with something so bulky, stumpy and lacking in any sort of grace. Nightlife in Limerick is pretty awful and I always find an edgyness to the place – especially since a mate of mine got his nose broken in a random act of violence outside a bar in the city centre.
Anyway, sorry about the Limerick-Bashing!! I’m just overcompensating for the previous criticism of Galway 😉
They are both potentially great places that happen to have loads of various problems at the moment. For me, however, Galway wins out because it has a lot more energy and vibrancy as a place. Its diverse population (people from all over Ireland, Europe and beyond), great cultural life (just attended a great cuirt literature week and looking forward to the Arts Festival) and the leisurely, relaxed feel of the city centre (Limerick has plenty of ring-roads, roundabouts, shopping centres and suburban housing estates surrounding it as well!).Maybe I should start a proper Galway info thread since I’m such a fan of it eh!!? 😉
I was a passionate advocate of the Eyre Square renewal project this time last year but at the moment I’m not so sure that it’s going to be anything like as successful as it should be. Currently the middle of the square is a bombsite and all of the pavements are being torn up and replaced. A fair amount of this work has already been completed and the results, it pains me to say, are pathetic. A silver grey natural aggregate flagstone has been used throughout – a product which can look well in certain scenarios , particularly in low traffic areas and when the textured finish is used. However the smooth version has been used on this occasion and it really is cheap and nasty looking. It also shows up dirt, chewing gum, cigarette butts etc to a great extent and more worryingly the actual workmanship is shocking. Manhole and various utility covers are scattered haphazardly around with as much as 20cm of badly laid concrete (or asphalt in some cases) surrounding them. The flagstones are uneven in places (all the more visible because of the smooth shiny surface) and there is a generally shoddy look to the finish. I am amazed that this is being allowed to happen! A great opportunity is being missed to do something great and what we end up with is completely half assed. Why is it that Cork’s Patrick Street has been surfaced entirely in high quality natural stone, with manholes and utility covers beautifully incorporated whilst Galway has to put up with cheap mock-stone flagstones and non existant detailing?
I’ll try to get a few pics here next week to prove my point. I realize that there is a long way to go before the square remotely resembles a finished product. However the initial signs arent too promising.
