a boyle
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Denouncer I don’t think you are still apreciating the scale of what is proposed.
I do feel your pain with respect to traffic. I live at the southern edge of the city. going into the city used to take (walking included) between 1-2 hours. With the tram (walking included) 25 mins every time, not a minute more.
this is the scale of the thing : a good bus service (46A) can do 1500 people per hour in one direction. the luas as is 4000. (although both could be upped to around 6000). This underground tram will have a top capacity of 28000.
Dundrum has 15 new appartment block ranging in height from 4 – 11 storeys. sandyford (industrial estate) has had application for enormous 23 storey appartement blocks.
Whether a tram is built or an underground system is built will have no impact on how fast you get to work.
But if this underground tram is built . It is unavoidable that the bulk of growth for dublin will be concentrated north of the airport. It won’t be pretty.
I would ask you to at the very least hold your counsel till the port tunnel is opened. because that is going to be fantastic for you. There are already motions in progress for buses to use it.
What i am proposing is a tram that follows the current route plus a spur from the airport to the dart line. This is much cheaper, can carry more people to more places in the long run . And wont have a 50 storey tower block in swords . If you would like to see how 30 storey tower blocks work out in practice at the edge of a city , check out La defense in paris.
Denouncer if you don’t start campaigning for a sensible solution you will be shafted in the long run (just like the happy people in meath who won’t know what hit them when the M3 is finished).
i remain unconvinced. if a metro is built we will end up with high rise ghettos at the edge of the city. The city has ballooned. the irish times reported that a third of house in the country are less than ten years old . This cannot continue. The city is envitably going to slow down in the next 3 years.
Because of this i say the metro (its not a metro by the by) is too much, too late.
I hate the expression but it is anavoidable. The facts on the ground are that forward tranport planning is not what is needed. dealling with the population in situ is what is needed. And the population in situ needs an orbital tram. The population in situ needs the real metro to be built, the interconnector. Be under no illusions that is is an either or with metro north and the interconnector.
The choices are stark. 3 high capacity lines (2 metros , and this underground tram) and nothing else. because these will cost around 10 billion.
Or the (2 metros + 6/7 tram lines) . This is a much better option. the suburbs are built. lets deal with the people who in misery today on the m50 not the people who might live in swords in the future.
The metro does not solve any transport problems in itself. it only allows for future development to be done in a better way. Building a network of 6/7 tram lines would have an impact on traffic , and would provide for higher density housing , since 6/7 tram lines cover such a large area.
Building the metro north line will mean at least at least a twenty year period to put in place the network.
Building the tram network will take ten years realistically. Plus it doesn’t mean that a metro (real one) can’t be built. The ministry of finance itself reported some years ago that the metro would only carry sufficient numbers of people when the rest of the tram network was built.This blind support for an underground tram through the least populated part of the city, on the basis that future development will be of a higher quality infuriates me. The large scale housing development is coming to an end , within the next few years. And the fact remains that the airport has a huge exclusion zone around it, wasting the metro line. It is also a fact that people like to drive to airports because lugging your bagges is no fun. It is also a fact that the port tunnel provides an enormous amount of space for a bus service to fly people in and out of the city,swords, and the airport. Finnally buses using the port tunnel will get to the city faster than the tram. This was not, i repeat not examined by the consultants when examining the case for the metro north .
It is quite clearly a gift from de taoiseach to de north side.
It is so wastefull and will have such little impact for the first 15 years of operation that if we continue this discussion much further i might just explode!!!
here it is plain and simple.
There is no route in the city that justifies a metro. Even the dart doesnt justify and full metro services, and it is a metro. full stop. we need to do what strasbourg did. effectively close down the entire inner city, and then build 5 trams lines. these can then run faster and up to every 2 minutes because they don’t compete with cars. The green line which is close to capacity only serves 3/4 thousands an hour. in twenty years it will still only serve 15 thousands an hour.
This traffic thing is the ultimate chicken and egg situation. But any rpa metro will be a financial noose. only the dart can come up with the patronage numbers required because it can tap into the national network.
Sick and tired of this metro hogwash. It won’t do the trick. We need to kick people out of their cars and onto buses , bycles, and feet. We need to open schools at 7 in the morning. end of story. the city is thinly spread. If i hear another metro bleater i will shoot him! these tram metros were conceived by politicians. The average speed of the metro in porto is 20km and hour, you cycle faster than that.
the end justfies the means . his means resulted in delaying completion of the project, not a better project. this is why he is an old fart. he did not articulate a viable alternative, unlike frank mcdonald. why is he given so much attention?
@tomredwest wrote:
as a student of NCAD i can confirm that the students are all delighted at the recent decision to not move to Belfield.
that is great. i wish they council would comision you students to do more displays for the street. I would like to see an dozen small podiums along the sides of the road which the college could use in any way it liked.
g fitz is so old and farty . what does he know about transport ???? i am sick of listening to his rambles. why do people listen to him ?
i think the dcc would like to move the buses to marlborough street.
My impression from all the different snippets over the years is that the dcc has a pretty clear idea of what it want to do . a pedestrian zone from parnell to the green. if the tram meant digging up the whole street again it would be an awfull shame. is it possible that while doing this work they were doing the diversion of utitlities at the same time ??? if so putting in the tram would not take very long and would only require the traffic lanes on one side to close . other wise it’s dig everything up !
with so many transport agencies jockeying for their prize project , a strong minister is needed. we haven’t got that yet . thomond your right about the combination of buses and trams. why not send the tram behind trinity. it will do it almost as fast as the college green route (much fewer pedestrian crossings) and tie pearse and the docklands into the city .
@Thomond Park wrote:
I do not consider a one hour Luas journey with potential change at Belgard to be acceptable public transport provision
you absolutely right . it is far from the city . However i am not sure that having one in the city is such a great idea either. i have seen 3 large conference centres in 3 american cities . All of them were redundant within 3/4 years because each one was outdone by a newer larger center. They also added nothing to the areas. When closed they are like empty prisons, large dead space. and when open they add little to the area as noone nearby has any business with the building . Those who do use the center don’t care about the area and are only there for the day.
If he really wants to build a conference center then let him , they are white elephants best left to the private sector. One built by the government can only dissapoint.
the lower (southern) end was dug. the drip drip of money certainly slowed things down. but perhaps taking time was best. despite what has been written in some previous posts it looks like a really good job.
As regards the luas well we will see that when we see it. if there is any kind of a financial wobble the trams will be the first to go.
1 extensive archeology . sackville stret was at one time the width of south william street .
2 diversion of utilities for the luas,
3 the spike.mostly it is number one
@Aidan wrote:
Is that all? At the last census, Cork had around 12% of the national population – if the city region is becoming a counterbalance to Dublin, and is obtaining critical mass in its own right, you’d expect to see a higher proportion of completions than that.
Counterbalance ? that is a joke. greater dublin has 40% of the republic’s population. there is no counterbalance to dublin and there won’t ever be. Especially since the motorway network has been built radially. Don’t get me the wrong way i am a big fan of cork !
the only way to develop a counter balance is to run a train from galway to cork, via shannon This would cost mental amounts of money. You would need two tracks the whole way , and there is only one at the moment. only galway limerick and cork combined could even think of affecting dublin. Even then it not be a sure thing.
Cork was developped as a much nicer place by hanging on to the coattails of dublin , (better food, nicer nightlife, better transport, real industry). Although everyone is frighteningly insular still.
area of ireland 70,286 km squared
area of metropolitan paris 14,518.3 km squaredthe country is tiny , tiny . i know that traffic makes it seem big , but is it really really small. what is proposed is not decentralisation but moving to the suburbs. the only parts of the country that are any distance from dublin are west cork , west kerry , and donegal.
for many of the government functions the location of its headquarters is almost irrelevant. this is because these agencies have a national network. So say fas was in portlaoise, time lost travelling back to have meeting with the minister for jobs , is offset by time saved travelling to and from the network. This would apply to the departement for health & hse-no reason it could not be located outside the capital, it has to have regular contacts with all hospitals.
This applies directly to the department of education as. this department spends much more time deally with clients (schools) than with the rest of government. so it makes sense to move it west and save on travel between it and all the schools of the country .
Any large organisation has to overcome the human management issues that come with size and so how kerry foods runs itseld is very important in the context of government. 2 decentralisation in ireland is not like moving from london to another city , as ireland is tiny.a fraction of the size of other countries. it would be a county in america.
3. are you biased ? are you a manager of some organisation (and so perhaps have some real insight), or are you possibly a civil servant who doesn’t want to move out of the big smoke ?
really thomond…
parlon is on record as stating that he has 10600 people signed up to move, while seeking 10000. With the country so small there is no reason why the headquarters of many goverment function can’t be placed in different parts of the country. For goodness sake , france germany and america are hugely decentralised. Companies stretch across the globe with no trouble. With people commuting from portlaoise to dublin , why can’t fas be located in the midlands? They have ‘outlet’ sprinkled throughout the country , so it can’t make much difference where they are. what really difference would it make if the headquarters of aerlingus were in shannon? or the tourism boar was in galway. How often do the tourism boards actually meet face to face with others groups ? it only takes two hour to cross the country for goodness sake !!!
kerry food groups has their world headquarters in where ? kerry. decentralisation is a great idea. The only fault is that the expectation was raised that it could be done quickly.
Bertie admitted problems as he is only to happy to heap s**t on all three pd ministers (fairly/or not , depending on your opinion) Parlon has had this decentralisation thing for just long enough that he is now seen as ‘owning’ the issue/problem
This is a political discussion not appropriate to this website. thumbs down to you .thumbs down.
@Thomond Park wrote:
Areas such as Dolphins Barn, Harolds Cross, Ranelagh and Baggot / Leeson Streets do not possess the density to justify the additional cost and because of heritage concerns densities will never acheive that required to justify such a diversion
Yes probably. But there will be war if the tunnel is not sunk deep enough at high street. as it runs beside wood quay.
Just because platform11 have discussed things endlessly doesnt mean they are right. The media have repeated endlessly that we need a metro to swords when we patently don’t. And don’t start disagreeing with me Thomond. You have just said that ranelagh , and leeson street don’t have the densities required. Well north dublin is the least populated part of greater dublin. A huge tranch can’t be built on because of the airport. As for future development, maybe , but considering that a third of all house in the state are less than ten years old , their is only so much building you can do. A metro to the airport ought to be very very low down on the list of priorities.
it is not that simple. You have applied the old problem of cause and effect: all old men are wearing top hats , therefore wearing top hats improves longevity.
These numbers by themselves mean nothing. You may indeed be right. However there are other possiblilties.
Most of the people on the circle line could be coming from other lines, so the circle increases the patronage on all other lines, by increasing the possibilities.
dimishing returns. It is important when the circle line was built. The improvement to other lines is reduced as more and more lines are built , because as you point out there are more direct routes.
Wrong place. this circle line could be in the wrong place . Other circle lines could be in the right place. With respect to dublin: a southern interconnector passing along the canal route could be a better idea than the current proposed routing.
unless you have smartcards for just about every one , so that you can investigate where people are coming from and going to, in what numbers ,and at what price. it is extremely hard to make conclusions. This is why the smartcard system is so vital to dublin. It also explains why it is so hard to implement. it is possible that half the bus routes are not needed, though the buses clearly are.
There are probably very practical reasons for not incorporating the phoenix park tunnel.
I would imagine the first and most important is that the connection between the pheonix park tunnel and the mainline is a level crossing. So all trains accessing the station would have to be timed with trains heading south out of the tunnel, and every train using the tunnel would be one less using the station. There is little or no scope for increasing the total number of services.
Political . There is probably room to reorganise the services in and out of heuston to allow for 2/3 services each way an hour, but if people get this into their heads they won’t be able to see the virtue of building a tunnel. I am assuming that the tunnel will take two tracks and sink them without crossing other lines.
thirdly noone (relatively) lives on the northside. the route the intreconnector takes passes through the most densily built part of the city, and services the most amount of businesses.
Fourthly with metro (or tramplus or moneyflusher) there will be two high capacity services. three would be over kill.
lastly and most importantly the interconnector doesn’t stop a circle line being developped in the future. Since iarnrod earrain are in competition with the rpa (mad country) they are probably holding the circle line idea for the future.
