Why was "The Ballymun Housing Scheme" a failure?
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hutton.
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- February 11, 2006 at 9:41 pm #765797
jaz_83
ParticipantThanks to all for being so helpful, your replies have been more than enough to point me in the right direction about my thesis. It has also lead to a very interesting conversation towards the end, an interesting idea to write my next paper on.
hope everyone has a good weekend:D
If any one has anything more to add , it’s more than welcome.February 14, 2006 at 2:25 pm #765798thomasjstamp
ParticipantThis may become a long post, sorry if it turns out too long. I am from Ballymun as well. I was born there and lived there till 1999 and then moved to Maynooth and now (curses) I am one of those who have erected a one off rural dwelling on a site given to my wife and I by her father, who is, yes, a farmer. I lived in the flats during the 70’s and 80’s and then Poppintree (houses).
Was Ballymun a failure? A a previous post suggested you have to ask what was the objective. I recall that it was an urgent, quick and cheap solution to the problems in the inner city tenanments of the 1960’s. I guess the mohair brigade wanted lots of new space in the city as well so the two co-joined nicely. The Fenian Street disaster was the ultimate catalyst I think. In anyevent, the project from start to finish took only about 5 years helped by the modular construction and an on site fabrication plant. The only problem was that there was no plan at all for what to do with the people when they were out there. CP will remember that there was only the one church untill the late 70’s when two more were built and then a third in 83 and that mass was held in the school halls. The swimming pool was only built because of local pressure and also the Library.
Repairs and maintenance were barely adequate and there were long waiting lists. The public transport system was poor. The 36 36a/b routes operated from Parnell Square and while CP is right about the single deck operation there were plenty of Duoble deckers in the 70’s. When the Bonbardier buses came in all of the routes became single deck. People often walked to Santry or Glasnevin to get a 16 or 19A.
Fire doors and enterence door on the blocks becase vandalised and were simply never repaired and eventually removed. This is a good example of what happened in that things like the playgrounds were removed as the Coproration either did not have the money or the inclination to repair them. I remember as a very young child hearing all the other children playin in the playground when I was in bed trying to sleep during the summer time. 10 years later there was silence because there was no playground to play in.
The green open spaces I perosonaly think were a good idea. There was plenty of places to play football band a few golf balls around and just mess. It was only when the horses came around that it became a disaster.
CP will remember that there was a track worn out on the ground by people walking from the bus stop at the roundabout to the shopping centre as no-one wanted to sue the underpass and the sixty crazy steps. It was muddy and dangerous. It took 15 years for the corporation to actaully put some tarmack on it and turn it into a proper path. This is a good example of who the corporation took no notice at all of this place which they were the landlords of. CP will also remember that there were rose gardens in the middle of the old roundabout. These were also done away with, why? Ask the landlord.
The real main reason why Ballymun went bad was the building of Poppintree and later the Coultree houses. Most of those houses were taken by people in the flats who moved out en masse. Eventually in 1987 we also did likewise. By then, in a 96 flat block only 17 were occupied. My brother and I counted the number of empty flats on Balcurris on day in 1989. There were 80 occupied flats in the entire road of over 500 flats.
A lot is made of the heroin epedemic. It was real but not worse then in other parts of the city. People strung out on heroin were not the reason why there were so many empty flats. The reason was that the go-getters who were the people who led the campaigns for the area all moved on elsewhere. The reason is down to the refusal of the landlord to properly maintain the flats. When I was an apprentice Solicitor I had the joy of seeing a former neighbour in Balcurris taking an action against the landlord due to the damp and mould in the flat whcih was affecting her ashmatic son. My old flat had water appearing in the cormers where the prefabs joined up whenever it rained so it want just basic maintenace it was structural.
An interesting sub note you might all find interesting. The original tenants all had to pass an interview to be placed in the flats. This was never followed up with subsequent tenants and would have prevented the place becoming the dumping ground it became in the 80’s. Also the Mater Hospital set up a Child Psychirtry service as soon as the place was built. Why? To evaluate the effects of high rise living? I dont know. Also, tranquilisers were handed out like smarties in the seventies and I think Tony Gregory has made the connection between this and the drugs explosion in the 80’s. If mammy was possing Roche’s all the time why cant I shoot up sort of thinking.
Anyway,
If Ballymun failed it was due to the landlords neglect. If you accept the theory it was built for a purpose as I stated above then it succeeded in it’s original aim. Care was taken at the start. However, once the people were out there it was neglected. Just to sum up, imagine the money the City Council would have made if they could have carried out the current redevelopment, and sold off the flats without demolising them. Imagine how must a 24 hour centrally heated flat with hot water on demand also 24 hours a day, three bedroom, seperate kitchen and living room, private balcony, only four apartments each floor…………. it could have paid for itself.
February 15, 2006 at 4:21 am #765799Cute Panda
ParticipantIn anyevent, the project from start to finish took only about 5 years helped by the modular construction and an on site fabrication plant.
There was a field out the airport road were unused and spare segments of the towers were lying in grass for years. You could really see how they flats really were a big Airfix kit made of concrete. I beleive the original design came from France and there are few Ballymun’s in several Frence cities.
The only problem was that there was no plan at all for what to do with the people when they were out there.
It was just like Tallaght 20 years later. There was an assumption that these people would somehow fend for themselves. It was really weird in many ways – like the Corpo expected some form of Natural Selection to take over.
CP will remember that there was only the one church untill the late 70’s when two more were built and then a third in 83 and that mass was held in the school halls. The swimming pool was only built because of local pressure and also the Library.
Saint Pappins was the first church which was a relic from Famine and people would stand in the rain outside. Then they built the Holy Spirit and then the Virgin one on Shangan Road. Do you recall when the Holy Spirifirst opened. They held the first mass and people from Ballymun were left outside in the rain while Corpo dignataries went inside.
I can recall that Pat Quinn, when nobody else was interested in Ballymun, least of all the government opened a Supermarket there, created loads of jobs. Ironically the greedy capitalists had more interest in Ballymun than the so called liberal and social justice crowd. My life long hatred of that middle class plaything called socialism started with that.
Repairs and maintenance were barely adequate and there were long waiting lists.
I can recall central heating pipes which burst in the basement of the flats which would be spewing hot water out for weeks on end.
The public transport system was poor. The 36 36a/b routes operated from Parnell Square and while CP is right about the single deck operation there were plenty of Duoble deckers in the 70’s. When the Bonbardier buses came in all of the routes became single deck. People often walked to Santry or Glasnevin to get a 16 or 19A.
or as far as the Swords Road for the 33 or 42.
CP will remember that there was a track worn out on the ground by people walking from the bus stop at the roundabout to the shopping centre as no-one wanted to sue the underpass and the sixty crazy steps. It was muddy and dangerous. It took 15 years for the corporation to actaully put some tarmack on it and turn it into a proper path. This is a good example of who the corporation took no notice at all of this place which they were the landlords of. CP will also remember that there were rose gardens in the middle of the old roundabout. These were also done away with, why? Ask the landlord.
It was amazing how many years the roses lasted around the edge and in the four circles. There was something very poetic about that.
The real main reason why Ballymun went bad was the building of Poppintree and later the Coultree houses. Most of those houses were taken by people in the flats who moved out en masse. Eventually in 1987 we also did likewise. By then, in a 96 flat block only 17 were occupied. My brother and I counted the number of empty flats on Balcurris on day in 1989. There were 80 occupied flats in the entire road of over 500 flats.
You could go up to the Corpo at the time and just say you were thrown out of you house by your parents and they would give you the keys to a flat. I did that when I came back from a stint in Austria and I got a 3 bedroom flat for myself, my girlfreind and a mate. We had a band at the time and used to practice in an empty flat across the hall with the amps and everything going full blast. We were the only occupants on that floor.
A lot is made of the heroin epedemic. It was real but not worse then in other parts of the city. People strung out on heroin were not the reason why there were so many empty flats.
I would agree with that. And other thing too and I swear this is true – every junkie I knew in Ballymun was not from Ballymun. There were nice respectable middle class boys and girls who ended up there. I can honestly say I never met one skaghead from Ballymun who was from the flats. There were all blow ins from Santry, Artane etc. In fact, i recall one day this well dressed guy knocking on the doors and showing a picture of his daughter and asking if anybody seen here. Turns out I knew her, she was a junkie and her day was a big shot in Aer Rinta.
The reason was that the go-getters who were the people who led the campaigns for the area all moved on elsewhere. The reason is down to the refusal of the landlord to properly maintain the flats. When I was an apprentice Solicitor I had the joy of seeing a former neighbour in Balcurris taking an action against the landlord due to the damp and mould in the flat whcih was affecting her ashmatic son. My old flat had water appearing in the cormers where the prefabs joined up whenever it rained so it want just basic maintenace it was structural.
This was very common and the reason I got out completely inthe end. The condensation of the central heating hitting the cracked joints in the walls destroyed a lot of the flats in the end and made them unlivable for all but the most down and out.
An interesting sub note you might all find interesting. The original tenants all had to pass an interview to be placed in the flats.
Oh yes, I can remember my parents talking about it. At the time they were planning to emigrate to Australia and they were far more pleased to be accepted into Ballymun than be granted visas for Australia.
It really goes to prove that a community does not just happen by itself and it takes a lot of social planning and rolling investment to make it successful.
February 15, 2006 at 5:02 am #765800GrahamH
ParticipantWere both of you happy growing up in Ballymun can I ask CP and Thomas?
February 15, 2006 at 9:39 pm #765801Cute Panda
ParticipantSpeaking for myself, I had a very happy and contented childhood in Ballymun, and most of my teen years were the same until my friends started to move away then there was no reason to reamin. I have nothing but really good memories of going to the Ballymun Comprehensive. I played soccer, GAA, was into the Scouts and when I got older played music and joined a local drama group. So it was pretty normal Irish childhood in most senses – you only realised the stigma whrn you left Ballymun and encounter a reaction from people like you were vermin which you were not aware of growing up in Ballymun. When you lived in Ballymun you were not aware of how the rest of Irish society (in certain segments) held you in comtempt.
One of the things you never heard about is that for all the skangers and lowlifes who came out of Ballymun it also produced way more successful and talented people as well. I think a lot of that came down to the fact that because we had nothing there, it made people in Ballymun either sink or swim harder.
February 17, 2006 at 8:52 pm #765802thomasjstamp
ParticipantI had a fine upbringing and I was happy, there was great sports activity, loads of soccer and GAA and there was Setanta hurling club as well. Mostly I rode a bike and walked two dogs out the fields and in santry forest. But there was all of the stuff you get in every area. Kids chucking stones and knicking stuff ouft of your garden. I remember the lads from the three bedroom across our floor testing petrol bombs by throwing them off the roof once and I have to admit to building roadblocks out of broken bottles and hiding in the hedge with my mates to see what would happen when we were small. It was a gas then but if someone did it to me now I’d kick their arse down the street!! As CP says above it takes a lot to made a community from scratch.
I have a funny feeling that we may be saying the same in 20 about the new new Ballymun.
February 18, 2006 at 3:41 am #765803GrahamH
ParticipantHopefully not, but environmentally I do wonder. Considering this is apparently the biggest urban regeneration project in all of Europe, what cutting-edge, state-of-the-art environmental, energy saving, sustainable-living elements are being incorporated into the thousands of units being built? Very little if anything I’d imagine.
Does every house have a solar water heater on the roof? What use is made of geothermal? Rainwater recycling? U-value of homes – are they just bog-basic building regs standard? Solar electricity? Pellet heating systems?
The vast opportunity the Ballymun Project offered to build a highly efficient residential community of mammoth proportions doesn’t seem to have been realised.
December 16, 2007 at 8:35 am #765804hutton
Participant*Warning – The folllowing article is from that notorious rag that pretends to be a broadsheet, The Sunday Independent. Contents maybe dubious, unreliable, and driven by an alterior agenda.*
Faulty towers hit by €22m wrangle
Residents are living in fear at new Ballymun
By JEROME REILLY
Sunday December 16 2007The most ambitious urban regeneration project in the history of the state — the €2.5bn rebuilding of Ballymun is now beset by a multi-million euro legal row over alleged shoddy workmanship as well as anti-social behaviour including drug taking, joyriding and wanton vandalism.
New private apartment blocks designed to be a showcase for the new Ballymun are in danger of becoming worse than the infamous towers they replaced, residents claim.
Gardai have serious concerns about poor security in the apartment complexes at Santry Cross which, under the terms of an unusually stringent covenants of leases, were to be built, managed and maintained as “high class residential developments”.
But residents say underground car parks have become dangerous no-go areas, routinely used by addicts and car thieves, with stairwells contaminated by human excrement and used syringes.
There is no closed circuit TV or evidence of full time security personnel on duty and there are other serious security shortcomings. One resident, Lukasz Holgn, told the Sunday Independent: “I would never allow my wife to go down to the car park with rubbish bags.
“Residents don’t use the underground car park for their cars because they will be stripped.”
There are also issues over construction, with owner occupiers discovering that there was no ventilation air vents in some of the bedrooms leading to problems with damp.
Though there was a vent-like structure visible on internal walls, an engineer discovered there was no duct to the exterior.
An independent surveyor found there was no insulation in the external walls in apartments at the eastern side of the Linnbhla apartment complex.
Residents complain of mildew, pools of water on what are now warped window sills, flimsy external doors and a host of other defects in what were trumpeted as a potent symbol of Ballymun’s rebirth and proof that private investment could successfully bolster public regeneration.
It is understand that a number of owner occupiers are in the process of initiating proceedings against the builders.
One resident has claimed that asthma which she contracted since moving into the Linnbhla complex is related to problems with the construction.
An official garda inspection of the Linnbhla complex, carried out in April by a Crime Prevention Officer, Sgt Jacinta Harley, and seen by the Sunday Independent, states, “I would have serious concerns about parking a vehicle in this underground car park as it is not in any way secure.
“I am amazed that a basic CCTV system has not been installed,” the garda sergeant reported.
Sgt Harley added: “Following my return visit to your apartment complex on April 6, 2007, I am disappointed to state that the security situation has improved little since my visit and recommendations in December 2005.”
Two weeks ago a stolen car was burnt out in the underground car park at Linnbhla. Residents had to be evacuated. The car was set alight beneath plastic sewer pipes on the roof of the underground car park which melted causing raw sewage to burst into the car park.
Now one of the biggest private investors in the new Ballymun is embroiled in a €22m legal battle with Pierse Santry Cross, an arm of Pierse Construction, the second biggest building firm in the State.
Multi-millionaire businessman Ken White, who has bought dozens of apartments in the new Ballymun, has refused to conclude deals on 10 apartments, claiming construction has been defective and the area has become beset by social problems and used by drug addicts and other criminals without hindrance.
He claims Dublin City Council, Ballymun Regeneration Limited and the builders have allowed the new complexes to degenerate into a slum-like condition.
He has been sued by Pierse Santry Cross who want him to conclude the €6m purchase contract and proceedings were opened in front of Mr Justice Kelly in the Commercial Court three weeks ago.
In turn, Mr White has issued a counterclaim against Pierse Santry Cross, the local authority and Ballymun Regeneration Ltd for €22m — a sum which includes the loss of Section 23 tax reliefs he says he would have received from the tranche of apartments at the centre of the dispute.
In a statement to the Sunday Independent, the Pierse Group said the company had “a demonstrable track record of excellence in the delivery of high quality and award winning residential, mixed use and commercial developments throughout Ireland and abroad.”
The statement continued: “The Group has contributed significantly to a number of large-scale and ambitious urban regeneration programmes in Ireland and Britain, including the ongoing regeneration of Ballymun.
“Pierse Santry Cross Limited has instituted High Court proceedings against Kenneth and Jacqueline White for specific performance of Contracts for Sale in respect of ten apartments which they contracted to purchase in November 2005, at The Turnpike, Santry Cross.
“In January 2007 Mr and Mrs White refused to complete the purchase of the apartments and referred the matter to Expert Determination, alleging that major defects existed in The Turnpike. The Expert Determination duly took place and decreed that no major defects existed and that Mr and Mrs White should complete the purchase of the ten units in question.
“Despite the binding ruling of an independent expert, Mr and Mrs White refused to complete and, as a result, High Court proceedings were instituted against them by Pierse Santry Cross Limited.
Those proceedings have now been accepted into the Commercial List of the High Court,” the statement continued.
“Mr and Mrs White have brought a counterclaim which will be fully defended by Pierse Santry Cross Limited. While the value of the claim being advanced by Mr and Mrs White is said to be €22m, no evidence has been provided to support that loss and in any event much of that purported claim has already been the subject of an adverse finding against them by the independent expert,” the statement concluded.
Last week, the Sunday Independent visited the Santry Cross Development and found disturbing levels of vandalism, with some areas filthy and unkempt and with inadequate security.
During a three-hour stay in and around the Linnbhla and the Hampton apartment complex, we gained unhindered access to all floors of both apartment complexes without challenge, easy access to the underground car park at Linnbhla, rear stairwells and other service areas.
We found that fire fighting fixtures had been vandalised. A fire hose was removed from the wall and lying on the ground and there was what appeared to be human excrement on stairwells.
There was evidence of drinking parties and general vandalism in many areas, with some areas daubed with graffiti and contaminated with filth and refuse and marked by bad odour.
In his counterclaim action against Pierse Santry Cross, Dublin City Council and Ballymun Regeneration, Mr White who is based in Harcourt Street and has substantial property interests throughout the city, has retained former Justice Minister Michael McDowell SC as his counsel.
The Sunday Independent has learned Mr White will make a number of claims. He will allege that the showcase Santry Cross estate common areas, the internal common areas, the car parks and the gardens of the development have been allowed to become run down, dirty and damp and foul smelling and contaminated by refuse, drug addicts’ paraphernalia and excrement.
Mr White’s legal team, Lyons Kenny Solicitors who are also acting for individual owner occupiers, will say the areas are accessible to trespassers at will, usable by drug addicts and other criminals and entirely unsupervised by any appropriate security personnel, porters or caretakers or any CCTV system.
Disturbingly, they will also make a number of serious claims in relation to fire alarms and fire escapes. They will say that an independent surveyor found many of the fire doors nailed shut on the date he inspected the site and many areas remain wholly devoid of locked gates and doors.
During the visit by the Sunday Independent, those fire doors were not locked.
Mr White’s counterclaim will declare that, far from being a high class residential development, the entire estate has become a development in rapid and serious decline towards slum status.
Mr White will also raise issues in relation to the management of the estate.
Another of his claims relates to what he alleges to be the absence of valid planning permission at the Hampton apartment complex. He says the apartment block was supposed to have a glazed skylight from the atrium to ground level but to save money the builders, Pierse Santry Cross, decided to replace it with a metal grill structure so converting what should have been a closed internal common area into an area, open to the elements, which is cold, damp and frequently flooded.
Mr White requested the local authority issue an Enforcement Notice directing the builders to replace the open air grill-like structure to comply with the planning permission. The Enforcement Notice was granted. But within days the Enforcement Notice was rescinded by Dublin City Council on the basis that the open mesh atrium was judged an exempted development. Mr White was told in a letter from a senior official the file would be closed. But less than a month later that decision was again reversed and he was told officially the open mesh atrium was not an exempt development and the file was again open.
This issue will be raised in the court case in the commercial courts early next year with Mr White’s claims vigorously challenged by Pierse Santry Cross limited.
Mr White declined to comment but said he remained totally committed to the regeneration of Ballymun. Mr Ciaran Murray, an Assistant County Manager and Managing Director of Ballymun Regeneration said that because proceedings had been issued he was not in a position to comment.
– JEROME REILLY
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