Why are there so many one-off junkies suddenly visiting this site???
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Bob Dole,
some examples of what you are looking for have recently been discussed on the ‘Any New Streets’ thread. https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?p=52931#post52931
With regards some of the points raised by PDLL, I think it is fair to ask why certain forms are so popular, instead of automatically bashing the posters for posting about them.
With regards to the Dublin bias on the site, I must say that I have often been suprised as to why there is only one active thread devoted to Cork (for example), as oppossed to various threads dealing with seperate areas, or individual buildings. I would like to see this happen more as some of the city specific threads can be difficult to follow given the amount of information on them.
BTW Just to clarify, my original point was the futility of one-off threads dealing with the same issue, in this case one-off houses – that was my bugbear!
For those who have confused the criticism of repeatedly starting the same thread with any particular position on one-offs, if they were to check they might find that I also posted the following on the thread on one-offs in Meath –
@hutton wrote:
However if you are planning to work in the countryside, and will look into building sustainably (ie no leaking septic tanks to begin with ) and are looking into incorporating the abode into the topography etc, thats a different story.
It might be worth looking at using materials other than concrete for construction, wood, wattle, or straw – a lot less environmental impact, and much better thermal values. Also have a look at geo-thermal heating units etc.
A tip of genuine advice, if you are pursuing this route, have a look at the Green Building Handbook.
[https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=4991%5DWas such advice really a total anti-rural perspective? Me don’t think so…
You are right, Hutton. It wasn’t anti-rural. It is, however, a good case in point. Your suggestion to build with non-concrete materials (wood wattle etc) basically implies that if one wishes to live in the countryside then one should build a structure based on natural materials and, as such materials are not the stuff of standard house design in contemporary Ireland, one should employ an architect to design the structure. Fair enough. What this does not take into account are the economics of the issue. It implies basically that only those able to afford an architect-designed house should be able to live in the countryside. Only those who are able to have a house designed in such a manner that it would look good on the cover of House&Garden should get permission to build in the rural landscape. Its a nice ideal but it is based on a very bourgeois concept of architectural aesthetics. It is the equivalent of a farmer saying that if you wish to live in Dublin, then you should design your house using cut stone taken from a local quarry, use natural wooden windows carved by a professional craftsman, and so on. This is what I mean about architectural utopianism. We don’t live in such a world, either in rural Mayo or in Donnybrook. We live in the world of economic reality so if rural dwellers have to dig very deep into their pockets in order to keep the countryside looking pristine and virginal, then city-people should be equally compelled to dig deep into their pockets in order to preserve the pristine and historic character of Dublin. So lets stop building cheap crappy quality urben apartment buildings – lets build only cut-stone buildings that are historically sensitive to our urban historical landscapes. For example, all buildings in the Woodquay area of Dublin should be built of wattle in keeping with the historic nature of the location. We could have four storey high wattle apartment buildings. Why not – surely our urban counterparts should be compelled to the same rigid concept of environmental sensitivity as our rural cousins.
In fairness PDLL, thats twisting my suggestion somewhat, as first-off it is my own belief that we should try to apply the measure of sustainability to urban construction as to rural building, and here I declare an interest. At present I have some periphery involvement with a city-centre apartment scheme in which certain meaures are being incorporated into the design, such as gray-water recycling, passive solar panels etc.
Second-off, while I dont believe that one-off eco-houses are the complete panacea for all ills, they are of less impact to the environment – and generally tend to actually cost less. To be honest, I wouldnt have an objection to the use of a pattern-book for basic design ideas – provided 1) it uses sustainability as a basic criteria, and 2)architectural advice is sought as to how best apply such a design to a specific site… Now thats probably going to get up both the would-be builders and architects’ noses 😀
You make an excellent suggestion here, Hutton, and one which I would expect would spark great interest among those architects particularly concerned with the downfall of the utopian countryside. Would it not be a good idea for the architects concerned with architectural design issues in the countryside to get together and prepare an off-the-shelf book of house plans and designs that are based on environmentally sound best-practices. It could be sold in book stores throughout the country for say 20 euros and would surely act as the best way to stymie the spread of off-the-shelf McMansion plans. Of course, this would mean that those architects concerned would have to put the preservation of the environment and architectural aesthetics before their own bank balances but it is obvious from the contributions to the one-off threads that sentiment is so strong on the issue that their own personal finances should hardly be a detracting factor. This really is a wonderful idea and probably the most effective way of bringing back Ireland’s countryside from the brink of the abyss. I would expect that a number of architects would be willing to sell their best environmentally-sustainable house plans for a reasonable fee for widespread dissemination for the greater good of the countryside. Fantastic – so lets have some public contributions straight away – if there is any architect out their who has recently berated the rural population for their lack of imagination and bad taste, they could post some of their detailed plans on the website straight away – no need to dally now….
@PDLL wrote:
what is more objectionable is the systematic stigmatizing of rural people through the use of generic, degrading and loaded pejoratives such as references to the fictional IRDA.
Also, it’s interesting how you highlight the so-called Dublin anti-rural generalisations by making sweeping rural anti-Dublin generalisations.
Also, perhaps the reason for a preponderance of posts relating to Dublin (relative to the national population) is because there are more architecturally-aware / environmentally-conscious / call-it-what-you-want people in Dublin. It would certainly explain much about the quality of so many single rural dwellings.
Also…
Aah what’s the feckin’ point. Your arguments are so riddled with logical inconsistencies that it’s like shooting fish in a barrel. Deliberate? Perhaps. I’m not going to lower myself to it, thanks.
@ctesiphon wrote:
Also, it’s interesting how you highlight the so-called Dublin anti-rural generalisations by making sweeping rural anti-Dublin generalisations. .
Glad to see you know ho wannoying generalizations are – its unfortunate hat I am lowered to using them to get you to see that, but it seems that sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.
@ctesiphon wrote:
Also, perhaps the reason for a preponderance of posts relating to Dublin (relative to the national population) is because there are more architecturally-aware / environmentally-conscious / call-it-what-you-want people in Dublin. .
Was that a joke?
@ctesiphon wrote:
Your arguments are so riddled with logical inconsistencies that it’s like shooting fish in a barrel. Deliberate? Perhaps. I’m not going to lower myself to it, thanks.
Better to have an argument with the odd logical inconsistency in it (no doubt the result of not having time to spend 4 hours analysing each sentence) than conceal the lack of an intelligent response through an over-wrought haughty response more appropriate to a theatrical sketch depicting a drama-queen suffering from an odd sense of neurotic self-superiority.
IRDA’s web site:
http://www.irishruraldwellersassociation.com/Speech from Minister O’CuÃv extolling the virtues of one-off housing
http://www.pobail.ie/en/MinistersSpeeches/2003/October/htmltext,3857,en.htmlGuidelines from Minister Roche advocating isolated rural housing development.
http://www.environ.ie/DOEI/DOEIPol.nsf/0/1829f4edf25b12b380256f5d004dd108/$FILE/Final%20Version%20of%20Rural%20Planning%20Guidelines%2013%205%2005.pdfPromotion of one-off housing development is government policy and supported by a majority of TDs
80% of one-off planning applications are approved.
The Bosman ruling has nothing on Roche’s interpretation of the NSS on ‘rural origin’
Still doesn’t answer the basic question – why do people want to build these houses? What is their aesthetic/social appeal? What is their relationship to Irish cultural traditions (there has to be some relationship – even if not a positive one); what can be done to give people real alternatives; what are architects doing to alleviate the problem (other than just bitching about it and berating rural people). These are interesting questions and lie at the heart of the whole discussion but as I have commented before, nobody is either willing or able to take them up and examine them. Its easier just to slap a few people such as Single Farmer over the head and then run away without even attempting to really analyse the situation.
Mostly because they can’t afford a 2000 sq foot house on an acre within the development boundary; there are exceptions but those actively involved in rural areas have generally never had problems unless the proposal was poorly sited in an SAC area of outstanding natural beauty.
PDDL
How do you account for
Real Estate Alliance Chairman, Eddie Barrett says that the 1,500 new jobs being created in Carrick-on-Shannon is also increasing demand for new property in the region. He also called for a review of planning restrictions to ensure more rural sites became available for those civil servants who are moving to rural areas as a result of decentralisation.
I think that it is worth looking at the reasons so many people choose to build houses without the assistance of architects. An increased input from architects should lead to an improvement in rural house design. I have recently hired an architect to design my one off rural house and I am hopeful that he will help me build a good home that enhances my quality of life, is sustainable and respects its environment. It was hard work! I talked to a number of Architects before choosing one;
I was amazed how many practices had no website. In this day and age almost every business bar your local corner shop has a website. I found it hard to believe that so many highly trained, computer literate profssionals providing a high cost service didn’t bother to advertise their work/business.
A number of architects didn’t bother to return my initial enquiries.
A number of architects who had done one off housing in the past said that they now didn’t have the time for such designs.. a result of the Celtic Tiger growth I guess
Some of the architects I met were excellent talkers but very poor listeners
The build costs suggested by a number of the architects were totally at odds with the typical house bulid costs in my area. I felt that this lack of knowledge would cost me when it the time came to tender for the build. Some local builders I know have dollar signs in their eyes at the mention of an architect.
Some if the architects were all in favour of under floor heating, solar power etc. as i am myself, but many of them were a lot quieter when I mentioned u values and returns on investment for these types of energy
I suggested the possibility of engaging an architect to design the house but not be involved in the build tendering process and the build itself to reduce my costs. Three architects refused to consider this option.
Of course these are all personal observations of a small sample, i do not wish to generalise.
Having looked at the very restrictive planning guidelines in place in Co. Clare I can see why many people choose not to hire an architect. A one and a half storey house with a stone porch will get planning permission nine times out of ten, going down the road of innovative design can lead to expense and headaches that your average home builder can do without.
Obviously it’s up to architects to run their business as they see fit but I think it would be of great benefit to the rural environment if architects were to come up with creative solutions for rural house builders and were more proactive in selling their services. If you are sick you go to a doctor, if you need legal advice you go to a solicitor, roll on the day when a person building a house automatically goes to an arcitect.
@Frank Taylor wrote:
80% of one-off planning applications are approved.
In many cases because of numerous pre-planning meeting and or a number of further information requests which this statistic above does not reflect
An application contains one fee and is either granted or refused the statistic therefore can be taken at face value
What are the comparable rates nationally within the development boundary?
@PDLL wrote:
Better to have an argument with the odd logical inconsistency in it (no doubt the result of not having time to spend 4 hours analysing each sentence) than conceal the lack of an intelligent response through an over-wrought haughty response more appropriate to a theatrical sketch depicting a drama-queen suffering from an odd sense of neurotic self-superiority.
Intelligent questions get intelligent responses.
Trolls get short shrift.Interesting tactic to admit that your arguments are fallacious, then to defend them by attacking a response you characterise as over-wrought. Almost sounds like the ‘It may be ugly, but at least I’m not a ponce’ defence many builders of single rural dwellings use in the face of legitimate architectural/environmental criticism. Oh hang on… That almost sounds like consistency. Was it deliberate?
As for taking time to consider responses- I’ve been working hard all day and haven’t had the time to measure my words carefully, as you seem to think. Do they seem measured? Probably just a sign of me having digested all of the issues at hand over a number of years, both in the hallowed halls of UCD and at the planning coalface.
You, however, had the time to post at 11.01 am, 11.28 am, 12.09 pm, 12.52 pm, 1.34 pm and 1.59 pm. If you posted fewer replies and thought your answers through a bit more, this might be a debate worth having (again, and again, and again…). But it’d probably be a bit less fun.PS What’s self-superiority?
PPS singlefarmer- You make some interesting points there regarding the architectural profession, many of which I agree with, particularly the “excellent talkers but very poor listeners” one.
This debate is very tired so there’s no point in entering it on any form of rural vs urban level.
With regard to why such poor design standards are generally adhered to in one-off dwellings is largely because of one simple and entirely acceptable reason – a lack of interest in architecture. It sounds obvious, but why should we have a built environment design-conscious society?! Just as in the clothing fashion world, there are Archiseek equivalents going around with their heads in their hands at way we dress ourselves every day (not to cast any aspirations on members’ fashion sense of course :p ) – mortified at how Irish people dress. Yet most people generally don’t care what they wear, with only a select view being design conscious. The same goes for the built environment; the majority don’t have opinions either way, with only a certain few anguishing over these matters 🙂
The same can be said of so many things in life.Fair enough, it has substantially more lasting consequences if manifested in the built environment, but at the end of the day this is what it boils down to – people are just building what they know and like, just like they dress in what they know and like, even if conservative and predictable. It doesn’t matter to them like it matters to people here.
Saying that, as mentioned before, it’s strange the way this doesn’t extend to the interiors of one-off houses, which are very often lavished with tailor-made solutions and custom fittings with no expense spared, and bizarrely the most contemporary of designs installed in bathrooms and kitchens – yet none of this extends to the exterior, as if people want the best of both worlds but without the ‘risk’ of changing the format. It would appear that people are reluctant to change the shell of the building in which they live: the familiar, protective mode of brick and sloping tiled roofs housing boxy rooms, so this is built as standard, deeming it the most important part to ‘get right’, but then they go contemporary on the inside, essentially cladding the reassuring (if ugly to some) traditional structure in modern design, so that the conventional way of living is maintained whilst allowing contemporary style in.
If the element of ‘risk’ associated with departing from building convention could be eliminated, we’d be on to something – though yes there is an element of ‘cost’ too 🙂Design guidelines issued and published as proposed earlier is an excellent idea, though of course various counties’ local authorities have partly done this already. But a more focused publication, aimed exclusively at design ideas by the likes of the RIAI could help matters a lot – I’m sure it’s been done at some level already.
A more pro-active approach by LAs also wouldn’t go amiss to say the least.True about architects and websites too singlefarmer – surprisingly many don’t have one, even biggish practices.
@PDLL wrote:
Lets move away from the utopian and examine reality. And what is that reality – people build McMansions because this is what they collectively find aesthetically and socially desireable. Why is that the case – because rural Irish people lack aesthetic sensibility, becuase they lack environmental awareness, because they deem it desireable to have PVC windows and mock-Georgian pillars? Who knows. To understand why the face of architecture in rural Ireland has been reduced to the McMansion is a legitimate issue worthy of further investigation, but lets stop berating those that build these houses and lets start asking them why they build them – what is it that appeals to them in these designs. If your interest is in architectural aesthetics, then that sounds like a fairly worthwhile approach to me. If, however, you simply want to isolate more than a million people by denigrating them and their LEGITIMATE expression of architectural aesthetics, then please continue with the same old pseudo-urbane ‘we-are-sooo-sophisticated’ urban vitriol that has come out of this and other threads in the past.
Could it be that people find much of the glass/steel/concrete buildings in the modern idiom cold and uninviting and perhaps assume that that is all that if on offer from architects today. I am not saying that I agree with this idea, but given some of the awful structures that have been put up in our towns and cities recently you can hardly blame them. People’s other choice, in much of rural Ireland is the over-priced cheek-to-cheek living in the housing estates mushrooming all over the place.
On many of the threads on this site there has been severe criticism of one-off housing – much of it deserved, but could some of you architects and planners start showing us what you would find acceptable. Few people, of choice, want to live in a large housing estate. Most of them will be looking simply to get on the housing ladder with the hope of eventually buying or building a one-off for themselves.sorry, I’m somewhat ignorant in the local scene …. i’m an architect, but not from ireland.
I have been reading the treads and I’m unsure what is meant “one-off” housing and why certain parties are offended by those wanting to build it in the countryside. Is it the quality of the design which is objectionable, or it is placement of any single houses in the countryside which is the problem.I’m just trying to understand what the contemporary climate is in Ireland for good design.
Thanks in advance.
Both aesthetics and unsustainability. But unsustainability is a much more significant problem.
They tend to look like these:
http://www1.myhome.ie/search/property.asp?id=279467&np=&rt=search&searchlist=
http://www1.myhome.ie/search/property.asp?id=271272&np=&rt=search&searchlist=
http://www1.myhome.ie/search/property.asp?id=271849&np=&rt=search&searchlist=
One off housing simply means isolated rural housing rather than houses built in villages, towns or cities.
Around 32,000 of these houses were built last year in Ireland out of a total of 80,000 dwellings constructed.
There is a debate in Ireland over whether this type of development should be allowed. Currently, government guidelines promote one-off housing and most politcians including the environment minister publicly support it.
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