well what about the developments popping up in the shannonside ?
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@jimg wrote:
See my post on the previous page, earlier in the thread; I think it is number 1898.
Sorry this is nonsense. I imagine everyone posting to this thread wants to see Limerick progress and improve. To accuse everyone who disagrees with your ideas as being against progress is insulting. I am all for modern development of Limerick and I love modern architecture and buildings; much of what has been built recently in Limerick has been very positive. I just don’t think the wholescale demolition of a long Georgian terrace to be replaced by a cheap shopping centre which is already out of date is a good idea..
This where I bolded your statement. You do not think there is progress with the Opera centre?. The Opera centre is not a cheap shopping centre. In fact the Developers have raised the price tag too 350 million. The new application looks even better than the previous one. Especially with the new frontage onto Patricks street. The pics look better than the previous ones, but that’s just my opinion. Even all the Georgion intact at that side where mall fronts Patricks street.
Now lets get a bit real here, with some facts. I’m not insulting anyone, you just seem to come across to me that the opera centre is all negative. The “cheap” quote is just one of many fals negative quotes by your own words and is a blatant lie. It’s not my fault I spot the errors in your judgments. Your comparisons are not accurate. And of course don’t take this personal. Your entitled to your opinions!You don’t seem to want to mention the fact the The Opera centre is retaining a lot of the georgion buildings too. Some has to go in order for progress. That’s life. But it would be fair to see what actual progress that will be done on seen plans, and to what extent of the historic parts are restored most importantly.. Which we all should see before anything is final and start to judge everything. You cannot expect every old building on that site to be saved when we are talking about redevelopment of this scale and is really badly needed right now. A few georgions buldings going for the sake 350million investment, is by far a better deal, when taking into consideration, from what we have been told Georgion buildings are to be retained in most areas. One way or another this part of town needs rejuivenation.
What are your views on it, what will you settle for this project to go ahead, and be real here. You cannot expect every old building to be saved. This project is a compromise not a cheap mall…
@vitruvius wrote:
I couldn’t disagree more.
Of course redevelopment and new building should happen in the city centre but please, let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water.The opera centre is very ambitious but the current plan goes to the very heart of what is wrong with Limerick City Council. They are willing to foresake the streetscape of Rutland St./Patrick st. in order to bring in the rates cheque.
The fact that Rutland st./ Patrick st. is a relatively intact continuous streetscape seems to be of absolutely no concern to the city council.
The houses in themselves are no great shakes architecturally but they are intact and represent what was originally envisioned by the 18th builders.
Does the entrance into the centre have to be that big?
I have no problem with the filling in of the A shaped area behind Ellen st./Patrick/Rutland St. with a modern development so long as the street is preserved – including doors that open on to the street. We don’t want it to become like Pearse st. in Dublin where TCD have bricked up all the doors and windows of the shops.They obviously cannot see what poor planning has done to the middle section of O’Connell st. from Burger King up to AIB – a nightmare of different rooflines and shite buildings.
All becomes well again beyond that.
Limerick city council does have a point on rates, and i still despise the city council in many respects to what thy have done in this city in terms of planning! The city council are not making enough money so its understanable as to why they are delighted developers are coming in. The city are loseing out to the suburbs in this retail game. In the suburbs of Limerick is the place to do business, and can do better than the city, as the rates are far lower. The rates need to come down in the city. In order for retail to stay there and make business. This city needs this development. Without the recent developments of late even, we wouldnt have had the reduction in the rates last year.
Without rates coming in, the Limerick city council will go in red tape. This is exactly why the rates are among the highest in the country.
When the Opera does go ahead its more money for the city. More shoppers coming into the city to shop thus more for the city’s econmy. Rate will then become much lower and the balance of the city’s coffers are restored. More retailers will opt to stay and do business in the city as a result The city council then can put the extra money into riviatilizing the old cityscape, repaving and refurbishing etc.FYI, deadline for a decision from ABP on Jackson’s Turret /Clancy strand development put back to July 22nd
@jimg wrote:
This is a bit of fantasy I guess but ideally, I’d love to see the whole of Rutland and Patrick Streets restored sensitively with small boutique street facing units. I’d like two new intersecting pedestrian streets permeating the block – these would be lined with fronts to ultra-modern larger unit as are required by many retailers these days. Some underground parking should be provided of course but by facing and integrating into the grain of the city, such a development would provide synergy with all the surrounding streets promoting redevelopment all around.
I couldnt agree more. When the rumours of a “huge redevelopment” of the yard behind Patrick/Rutland Street began circulating about 3 years ago, I had visions of a new pedestrian thoroghfare extending from Bank Place to Ellen Street lined with shops, restaurants etc. What was I thinking though, that was way too ambitious, this is Ireland after all, we do everything arseways here!:( The announcement of an uninspiring, introverted shopping mall came as little surprise.
What really gets me though is how much of a pushover Limerick City Council can be when it comes to dealing with developers. We’ve seen far too many developer led projects in the recent past, with inevitable consequences. For the last number of years, the City council has been implementing a programme of pedestrianisation for city centre streets. Their city centre strategy also stresses the importance of “live frontages” in attracting more footfall into the city centre. As jimg said, we’ve already seen the benefits of this type of approach on Bedford Row/Thomas Street. The development plan for the Aurthurs Quay area also proposes the replacement of the abject failure that is Arthurs Quay sc (the opera centre of 1988) with a series of interconnecting pedestrian streets and public spaces. Why then are they accepting such a flawed and discredited formula in the shape of the opera centre?
The pedestrianised shopping area would, on the whole provide a much more balanced development. Important aspects of the citys georgian heritage would be retained while modern units would also be provided for retail. 1980s developments such as bruce house and the aib bank could still be replaced as is currently proposed. The aerial image shows there is ample space for such a development. Entrances could be formed at Bank Place, Michael Street, the laneway between Rutland & Patrick Street and potentially through the concealed archway on Ellen Street.
Attached: Opera centre site & Arthurs Quay masterplan.
Not being snooty or ‘owt but all shopping centres are cheap. They’re the greatest thing since sliced foccacia for about a month until the next sandstone and glass monolith comes along.
They are also private spaces – once the lights go off and the shutters sail down in the evening that’s it closed off to the public.
They lack permeability -they don’t do shops opening onto the street.Opera Centre’s opening night snag (Sunday Tribune)
PROPOSALS to expand Limerick city’s planned €350m Opera Centre shopping complex are likely to cause controversy because the revised project would involve the demolition of Georgian houses earlier earmarked for restoration by An Bord Pleanala. Regeneration Development’s revised blueprint proposes the demolition of all of one side of Ellen Street including three houses which the planning board ruled should be conserved and repaired when it sanctioned the original planning application.
The project involves the restoration of the birthplace of internationally-famous singing star Catherine Hayes who was born at 4 Patrick Street in 1818. The building will be converted into a museum celebrating the life of the diva and will be administered by the Limerick Civic Trust.
The new proposals also involve the demolition of the Lucky Lamp public house, a cut stone building originally intended for retention.
The scale of the project will now be dramatically extended from 28,000sq m to 38,000sq m by including the Granary Building on Michael Street and the Old Town Hall on Rutland Street, both listed buildings, in the revised plans. The new application also proposes doubling the number of car park spaces originally planned to 1,000. Brown Thomas and Marks and Spencer have both been mentioned as possible tenants for the two anchor stores which will now have a combined floor area of 16,000sq m.
“It’s important to stress the positive nature of this development, ” says Robert Bloomer of agent Savills HOK. “It’s exactly what Limerick needs. The retailers we’re talking to can’t wait to get into decent space in the shopping centre.”
“Sorting out the proposed demolition issue will certainly be a bone of contention, ” says local councillor, Kathleen Leddin. “People are anxious that the centre gets permission, but at the same time there will be concern at the prospect of losing those buildings. It’s a development that Limerick needs so a balance will have to be sought.”
“I’m perplexed at the decision of the developers to ignore the previous decision of An Bord Pleanala in regard to the destruction of important heritage houses on Ellen Street, especially when there would appear to be absolutely no necessity for this, ” says Liam Irwin, president of the Thomond Historical Society.
“This is an area of architectural conservation not a green field site and needs to be treated in a sensitive and enlightened manner. The former scheme as approved was a reasonable compromise between heritage concerns and the need for economic regeneration of the area and it is regrettable that an attempt is now being made to destroy this consensus.”
@Dan Sullivan wrote:
FYI, deadline for a decision from ABP on Jackson’s Turret /Clancy strand development put back to July 22nd
Apparently ABP are in the midst of a huge backlog of cases so I suppose this dosent come as much of a surprise. Despite this, the decision date for the proposed new bus station remains unchanged, its due to be decided this Wednesday.
Btw Dan, whats the latest on Curragour house, is it still standing?
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@Tuborg wrote:
Apparently ABP are in the midst of a huge backlog of cases so I suppose this dosent come as much of a surprise. Despite this, the decision date for the proposed new bus station remains unchanged, its due to be decided this Wednesday.
Btw Dan, whats the latest on Curragour house, is it still standing?
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I must admit to not having been over that way recently. The extension was expected, I had been in touch to confirm as much,
Also Re: the opera centre, Only got the plans end of last week, and on first viewing the area around the Granary is a significant improvement on what was there before and the amount of shop frontage onto Patrick is a lot better. Will have to take a better look at it over this this week.
Opera Shopping Centre a watershed for Limericks Georgian Heritage?
The beginning of Ellen Street has a fine cluster of Georgian buildings facing each other. Now the “new†developers propose their demolishment on one side of the street, along with Quins cut-stone building. This would be a major loss, especially to the other side of the street. Both sides complement each other, as the street here has an authentic feel to it from another era. Fact is once they are gone, up to two hundred years of history goes with them!
Rutland Street and Patrick Street will have their Georgian facades maintained and their internal layout will be integrated into the Shopping Centre. That will probably mean that they will be gutted and rebuilt with concrete floors. I don’t know if access to these buildings from the street will be continued? The only building that will be fully restored to its original state is the Catherine Hayes Museum project.
Re-reading through an excerpt from the book on “Georgian Limerick“ I posted some while back, it is interesting to read that as a generalisation, most Georgian terrace houses were built by “speculative developers†whose main interest was to make a handsome profit. No different in nature to the developers behind the Opera Shopping Centre today. Would “Georgian Limerick†ever have come into existence without the driving force of those “speculative developers†in the first place?
It is also worth reading that Limerick’s Georgian heritage consists mainly of terraced houses built for “domestic use†and that these Georgian terraced houses are the 18th century equivalent of modern suburban housing estates. It would be safe to say that 99.9 % of the Georgian buildings today are no longer for domestic use (i.e. family with servants) but are now commercial buildings. Could it be that their original purpose for “domestic use†is now an Achilles heel to its future. What I am saying here is can these buildings in their original internal design, meet today’s commercial requirements?
A rough breakdown of their commercial use today would be
- Retail (e.g. Patrick Street / Lwr. O’Connell / William Street axis)
- Offices (e.g. Upper O’Connell Street, Cecil and Glenthworth Streets)
- Flats (e.g. Mallow Street, Catherine Street, Barrington Street)
- Cultural / Recreational (e.g. Museum, Galleries, Pubs, Restaurants)
I personally can’t see theses building being used in their original form without some major internal reconstruction in design and materials used. Why?
Take for example, the original wooden stairways and the wooden floors. They must be a fire safety concern especially were the use of building are for flats. Some of the corner buildings have little or no rear access to them. Probably would mean that there are no fire-escapes, unless of course they fix one onto the front façade of the building. Is this acceptable?
Many of the Georgian buildings in the retail zone of the city are now nothing more than facades.
A retail example here would be O’Mahony’s Bookshop on O’Connell Street. In 1902 their floor space on the ground floor would have probably catered for its needs back then and I assume the original building needed very little alteration (Shop front). Today they retail books on three floors extending all the way back to the rear lane. I sure they gutted the basement, the ground and first floor with concrete. There is nothing to denote from the inside that one is now in a Georgian building except that of the first floor windows to the front. Fact is that the original building would have never coped with today’s footfall without modernizing it. Had the bookshop here alternative options? This pattern repeats itself more or less with similar buildings in the retail zone.
I personally see an acute demolishment threat to Lower Mallow Street due to their present poor condition and William Street (corner of little Catherine Street to Wickham Street) could suffer the same fate as Ellen Street if these buildings are not modernized / restored in the very near future.
That the city council has now defined Limerick city centre into different zones like Georgian, Riverfront, Retail etc, etc. Does that mean that Georgian buildings outside the declared Georgian zone are less important than those within?
To summarize, I personally think it is easy to maintain the original facades (Doorway, windows, railings, brickwork etc) of our Georgian buildings but their internal restoration might well have to give way to modernization. I think the O’Mahony’s bookshop model would be the best way forward for Patrick / Rutland Street with access from both street and shopping centre. Are there better options?
Any thoughts?
Here an old planning map of Patrick Street.
Unfortunately , Limerick City Council view the ‘Georgian Quarter’ as the area from Glentworth Street to South’s and up to Pery Square.
The Current Opera Proposal will render Rutland and Patrick Street sterile as the ‘Stephens Green Shopping Centre’ did to South King Street in Dublin
Dreamstate, it looks like that the area outside the Georgian Quarter for conservation is officially starting to shrink.
Variation (No. 1) of the Limerick City Development Plan 2004-2010 (Proposed Draft)
21st May, 2008
Below a screen shot from the latest proposed draft variation. The following streets Rutland, Patrick, Ellen and Michael are to be taken out of the conservation area.
I presume the text underlined is to be inserted and the text crossed-out is to be deleted.
Dan, any chance of posting some details from the Opera Centre plans.
@CologneMike wrote:
Opera Shopping Centre a watershed for Limericks Georgian Heritage?
It all depends on the exact details of the new plans. Under the previous application, 4 & 5 Rutland Street were to be restored and retained in their entirety as was 5 Patrick Street (adjacent to Catherine Hayes house). Despite the acknowledgement that they remain very much intact, the older, 18th century buildings at 8 & 9 Rutland Street will have their interiors demolished with just the facades retained. Im curious to know how it was proposed to integrate the retained buildings into the new complex? The buildings in question are only in use as ground floor retail units with the upper floors housing old residential accomodation, now used for storage. What will become of these upper floors?, will they be gutted to provide more floorspace as CologneMike mentioned earlier?
Id also like to know what treatment buildings not initially part of the application (such as the old town hall) will receive. According to the city council website, only the facade of the building is protected, does this answer my question I wonder? The dearth of information on this highly important project is pretty shameful!:(
8/9 Rutland Street
4/5 Rutland Street
5 Patrick StreetI wonder why these streets are considered less significant now than they were back in 2004, when the area of conservation was drawn up? Looks like the City Council are bending over to the developers again. This is obvious proof that they are really anxious for this development to proceed. Nothing wrong with that but the wholesale removal of streets from the conservation list is not the way to do business and runs the risk of setting an unwelcome precedent.
It is true though that much of the city centre now looks to be up for redevelopment. We know about the Arthur’s Quay area, but it also seems that a whole host of other city centre blocks are being looked at. The city centre strategy identifies the Brown Thomas site along with the blocks between Bedford Row/Sarsfield Street, Shannon Street/Bedford Row and Thomas Street/Roches Street as potential future development opportunites. A portion of William Street at the junction with Foxes Bow is also up for consideration. Of course all these buildings are in private ownership and theres no guarantee that wholesale redevelopment will take place.
How would posters here feel about these potential redevelopment opportunities? Theres no doubt that much of Lower O Connell Street is pretty shabby at the moment and certainly the likes of Brown Thomas, Bank of Ireland and Dunnes Stores would be no loss. It will be interesting to see what effects the streetscape renewal project will have on O Connell Street, will we see a repeat of the widespread upgrading and refurbishment of buildings that occurred on Bedford Row/ Thomas Street? An improvement in the quality of retailers is definitely required.
Below is O Connell Street at its junction with Shannon Street (kpmarek). As you can see only 4 buildings retain their original brickwork, the rest have theirs hidden behind either cement or some form of cladding. It would do wonders for the appearance of the street if the original facades were revealed again and sash windows installed. Does Limerick City Council have any guidelines regarding the standard of shopfronts and facades in the city centre?
Attached is an image of the same part of O Connell Street c.1910.
Black and White hides a multitude of sins though. As it is you can see from the original picture (1910) the street wasn’t constructed in a uniform fashion. I suspect we have an idealised concept of Limerick City Centre that never existed.
I remember reading that originally the site of the Augustian Church block was meant to be an open square, but the Church forced it’s way onto it and the other buildings were flung up along side the Church once the square concept was lost. Possibly one of the biggest disasters in Limerick’s city centre, as it means Limerick has no central square and the city centre is reduced to a series of junctions.
We need to accept the reality of much of the Georgian stock in Limerick was shoddily built and probably looked poor a few years after being built. As a concept, Georgian Limerick was fine, but i don’t think the concept was fully realised and we left in the odd position of trying to save buildings that don’t have much merit. My biggest objection to the Opera Centre isn’t that it will remove some low-rise and unremarkable buildings, but what it proposes is simply a poor design. I could accept losing some of Ellen Street if what was being proposed was a huge leap forward architecturally , but it appears to be wanton destruction for destructions sake. Internally I accept a lot of these buildings are unsuitable for a shopping centre layout, but the facades needn’t be.
The City Council should determine the city centre we wish to have, and make developers work within that framework, not as is currently happening, waiting for developers to propose the cheapest possible design and then falling over themselves to accept it.
Btw, am about to submit my first ever planning objection, in relation to Limerick Boat Club, wish me luck!
Theres no doubt that outside of areas such as the Crescent and Pery Square, Limericks georgian buildings are pretty modest with some being of fairly dubious quality. With this in mind I believe its imperative that the City Council put measures in place to restore the Crescent and Pery Square especially, back to their former glory. These are two of Limericks most architecturally significant areas and deserve better treatment than they are currently receiving. At the moment, the Crescent is blighted by plastic windows and innapropriate signage. The maintainence of the facades leaves a lot to be desired aswell. I also hope that the City Council are going to use more appropriate materials when they begin the re-modelling works on the Crescent, the French limestone thats all the rage at the moment would be a bit too bling for this sensitive area.
As for the terrace pictured in my last post, I still think Leavys is a fairly intact georgian townhouse and if the cement finish was removed the effect would be pretty dramatic. Its not a uniform terrace and the parapet height of eddie rockets:mad: building is a bit off but I would still be wary of demolishing theses buildings simply because I have absolutely no faith in architects/developers coming up with a design of any merit to replace them. Its a sad indictment of Ireland that the majority of developments during our boom years have been extremely mediocre and theres nothing to suggest thats going to change!:(
Potentially the best option is to refurbish the original facades and make them more retail friendly. The majority if not all of these buildings have had their interiors significantly altered anyway so there is nothing to prevent a total internal reconstruction with the added bonus of ample rear space. The merging of buildings to facilitate larger retailers could also be considered.
Firstly, great to finally see the publication of ‘An Introduction ot the Architectural Heritage of Limerick City’, published by the National Inventory of Architectural Heritage. A profusely illustrated volume it adds significantly to our knowledge of the archtiectural heritage of the city and should be an excellent guide for planners, developers and the interested public.
Secondly, a colleague of mine who checked the plans of the Opera Centre in the planning section of Limerick Council is enthused with the proposals: sections of which he copied for my examination. There appears to be significant improvements relative to the original plans. These include multiple openings onto RutlandPatrick street, the retentionconstruction of two stand-alone shops in Rutland Street and a much improved entrance at the Cahill May Roberts site. Visually, the proposed centre appears far more attractive than the previous layout. In my opinion the construction of the proposed Opera Centre as detailed in these plans would greatly enhance Limerick’s attractiveness as a shopping city and be a welcome addition to its architectural landscape.
I think many people are unduly suspicious of the developers motives in submitting revised plans for the centre. The fact is, that the original Belfast developer who initially acquired most of the present site submittted plans that were very limited and unimaginative. Subsequently this developer’s stake was bought out by new investors who proceeded to acquire additional buildings including Hartmann, Emerald etc etc. The incluson of these buildings together with the Granary necessitated a revised planning application. I genuinely consider that this revised planning application is far better that the original one that received permission from An Bord Pleanana. I wonder what others who viewed the Revised Application think.
Opera Centre plan ‘unlawful and invalid’
By Anne Sheridan
THE managing director of Trinity Rooms nightclub has described the plans for the revised Opera Centre as “unlawful and invalid”.
The developers have proposed to demolish modern extensions to The Granary, which they are also seeking to incorporate into their plansPatrick Barry, managing director of Trinity Rooms, has submitted an observation to Limerick City Council’s planning department, where he stated that he is “very disappointed” that no representative of either Regeneration Developments or the other associated companies officially approached or wrote to Redroom Ltd, the company that runs the nightclub.
Mr Barry stated that the developers did not seek or obtain the consent of Redroom Ltd or its subsidiaries prior to lodging the revised planning application.
He concludes his application by stating that the “proposed redevelopment in its current configuration will put the day to day running of this business, cause undue hardship to our 95 employees, suppliers and customers.”
“Accordingly, I therefore believe this planning application is unlawful and invalid insofar as it includes or purports to include any part of The Granary used and occupied by the Trinity Rooms.”
Trinity Rooms are also battling to take ownership of a small piece of land, which borders the nightclub. As the owner of the land is unknown, Limerick City Council imposed a compulsory purchase order (CPO) on the land this March, which is currently being decided upon by An Bord Pleanala.
This site has also been included in the revised plans for the Opera Centre. James Rael of Rael & Son Contracts Ltd, Michael Street, also lodged a submission in relation to the proposed €350 million retail development, which is said to become the biggest in the Mid-West should the plans be passed by City Hall on this second occasion.
He concludes his application by stating that the “proposed redevelopment in its current configuration will put the day to day running of this business, cause undue hardship to our 95 employees, suppliers and customers.”
“Accordingly, I therefore believe this planning application is unlawful and invalid insofar as it includes or purports to include any part of The Granary used and occupied by the Trinity Rooms.”
Trinity Rooms are also battling to take ownership of a small piece of land, which borders the nightclub. As the owner of the land is unknown, Limerick City Council imposed a compulsory purchase order (CPO) on the land this March, which is currently being decided upon by An Bord Pleanala.
It looks as though the director of the Trinity Rooms is engaging in the sort of hyberbole that gives objections to planning permission a bad name; he also appears to have a putative material interest in an adjoining piece of ground, so he’s not exactly disinterested. I’ve only been to Limerick once, but it seemed to me to be the most ‘urban’ in feel of the Irish cities, especially in the ‘new town’ bits and facing the river; Englishtown was, however, a disappointment. Anything that reinforces the character of the centre should be welcomed, provided the design is up to it and it reinforces the urban character of the city.
interestingly this line appeared in a previous article in the same paper..
But Joe Clarke, manager of Trinity Rooms, said they would be delighted to be part of the Opera Centre, which he believes will breathe more life into the city centre, and confirmed that they will not be forced to find another venue for the club.
Obviously not getting what they want..
@Tuborg wrote:
Opera Centre plan ‘unlawful and invalid’
By Anne Sheridan
THE managing director of Trinity Rooms nightclub has described the plans for the revised Opera Centre as “unlawful and invalid”.
The developers have proposed to demolish modern extensions to The Granary, which they are also seeking to incorporate into their plansPatrick Barry, managing director of Trinity Rooms, has submitted an observation to Limerick City Council’s planning department, where he stated that he is “very disappointed” that no representative of either Regeneration Developments or the other associated companies officially approached or wrote to Redroom Ltd, the company that runs the nightclub.
Mr Barry stated that the developers did not seek or obtain the consent of Redroom Ltd or its subsidiaries prior to lodging the revised planning application.
He concludes his application by stating that the “proposed redevelopment in its current configuration will put the day to day running of this business, cause undue hardship to our 95 employees, suppliers and customers.”
“Accordingly, I therefore believe this planning application is unlawful and invalid insofar as it includes or purports to include any part of The Granary used and occupied by the Trinity Rooms.”
Trinity Rooms are also battling to take ownership of a small piece of land, which borders the nightclub. As the owner of the land is unknown, Limerick City Council imposed a compulsory purchase order (CPO) on the land this March, which is currently being decided upon by An Bord Pleanala.
This site has also been included in the revised plans for the Opera Centre. James Rael of Rael & Son Contracts Ltd, Michael Street, also lodged a submission in relation to the proposed €350 million retail development, which is said to become the biggest in the Mid-West should the plans be passed by City Hall on this second occasion.
I think that the so far un-included land owners see an opportunity for financial benefit by submission of objections / submissions . Unfortunately we ( the people of Limerick city) have no real say in these developments . This centre will be given permission because the people that we employ ( i.e. Councillors & Planners ) are of the belief that ANY development is good development. . . even though we pay their wages , they really have no interest in our viewpoint because … the developer euro is a good euro and the rates will be great !!!.
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