well what about the developments popping up in the shannonside ?

@iomanaiocht wrote:

This is my first post on this most interesting site where conflicting opinions are generally accepted graciously unlike some others that I contribute to.

Welcome aboard iomaniocht! I can definitely see where you’re coming from and I must say Im in favour in principle of the opera centre aswell, indeed the prospect of a €350 Million retail boost would be welcomed by any town or city. However you have to try and not be blinded by all the hype and the developers buzz words, you have to look a bit deeper. The fact is the project as is currently proposed is exremely flawed, history tells us that handing over an entire city block to private developers is usually a gamble that dosent pay off and we have the painful memories to prove this in Limerick (Aurthurs Quay, Dunnes). The reason why much of O Connell Street for example is blighted by horror shows like Brown Thomas, Penneys, Bank of Ireland, AIB etc is because the council was blinded by the prospect of shiny new developments and short term gain, never even considering what the future imlications might be. Take a look back over this thread and look up the old illustrations of Limerick thread and you’ll see just what the city has lost over the years.

I admit that I am not an expert on arhitecture but would ask those calling for the retention of all the Georgian buildings in the affected area to take a walk along Ellen Street and look up at the upper stories of these buildings. From a casual observation some with extensive vegetaion growth appear as if they are could collapse and without this deveopment soon will.

Theres no doubt that the buildings are in a fairly sorry state, however just because there is vegetation growing on them dosent mean they are condemned. Indeed the structural engineers report found that these buildings are salvagable, however the interiors of three of them have been significantly altered to an extent that there is nothing of merit remaining except the facade. Still georgian brickwork is more attractive than the plasticy legoland rubbish that is proposed. If the developers had their way the whole opera centre site would be levelled as it would make thinks “more straightforward” as they stated earlier. These people have no interest in any potential damage their proposal would inflict on the city, all that matters to them is €€€€€€!

Currently, the vast majority of these people visit either Galway, Cork or Dublin cities, when shopping for ‘significant’ and expensive occasions such as First Communion, Confirmations and Weddings. For Limerick City to compete it must allow large city developments such a sthe Opera Centre develop. The city cannot wait much longer or alternative developments elsewhere will mean that centres such as the Opera Centre will be no longer necessary or viable. Limerick City must become involved in a competitive trading environment with Galway and Cork. As one of the regular Clare visitors to Glaway I read the local Galwegian papers. Invariably, when they discuss proposed large retail developments they outline how they will attract cutomers and tenants to Galway at the expense of Limerick City.

Im very familiar with Galway aswell and I’ve never heard anyone say that Galway is a better shopping destination than Limerick. Indeed Galways retail core is smaller than Limerick’s and imo offers less choice. The major problem here is that the likes of the crescent sc has been pulling customers from all over munster and beyond in recent years and this is going to be replicated when Parkway valley opens next year. Fortunately the city centre is finally starting to fight its corner and the developments on Bedford Row and Thomas Street have shown what the pedestrianisation programme can stimulate. I would expect a similar turnaround on O Connell Street when work gets underway there. Also the proposal for the redevelopment of the Aurthurs Quay area promises much.

If you have the time, check out the City Centre Strategy for more on the city centre proposals.

Disjointed thinking over the tunnel 🙁

Editorial (Limerick Leader)

ONE of the reasons, if not the principal reason, why Limerick is getting a tunnel under the Shannon is to facilitate commercial shipping to the city’s Ted Russell Docks.

Shannon Foynes Port Company made a submission to that effect during the consultation period. Engineering opinion opposed a bridge high enough to allow shipping to pass beneath because the access roads would commence to rise a mile north and south of the structure itself.

A low bridge with an opening span was discounted because of potential delays caused by the passage of shipping. But nobody suggested closing the city docks.

Without the city docks in operation, a plain dual carriageway bridge, at the same height as Shannon or Sarsfield bridges, would do, and at a fraction of the cost of a tunnel.

Now, with the tunnel project well under construction and millions already having been spent, the independent chairman of the Limerick Docklands Consultative Forum, Tom Kirby, suggests the closure of the city docks to commercial traffic and the transfer of business to Foynes.

His suggestion that some cruise liners might be enticed to the city would not retrospectively justify the difference in cost between a relatively cheap low bridge and the massively expensive tunnel.

From Mr Kirby’s report, one must infer a lamentable lack of co-ordinated forward thinking as between all the bodies concerned in advance of planning the river crossing.

To find a classic and parallel example of disjointed planning, one need not go far. When, less than a decade ago, the dual carriageway from Limerick to Adare was being constructed, provision was made to accommodate the Limerick to Foynes railway, which runs beside it.

The flyovers were constructed with additional bridge elements to enable trains to pass beneath, thus adding considerably to the cost.

At about the same time, the eastern approach road to Foynes port was being constructed and Iarnrod Eireann wanted the port company to pay for an automatic level crossing where the road would intersect the line.

But the line was carrying no traffic and hadn’t done so for years, would shortly be officially described as “closed”, would be condemned as unsafe at Robertstown Creek bridge and is now not even connected to the national rail network. And now the track is to be bridged again at Greenfields by the southern approach road to the tunnel.

A programme for the future of Limerick docklands, Foynes and the Estuary is required, but it must entail co-ordinated planning to include all the implications, including transport and access, and ongoing costs.

Images (John-Dory loose-grip-99 Declan Mc Grath Shannon Foynes Port Company)

• Limerick Docks – NRA Tunnel Crossing
• Adare Railway Station – Closed
• Foynes Railway Station – Closed
• Foynes Port

Hi iomaniacht. I agree that it is vital that Limerick develop and embrace retail. However I have two objections to the proposed development. First of all, I think we should be very very careful before sacraficing historic stock. Check out the “Old Illustrations of LImerick” thread that Tuborg links to; it should give anyone pause for thought before recommending the destruction of more of Limerick’s historic stock. Patrick St./Rutland St. should be one of the most important thoroughfares in the city acting as a link between the new (relatively speaking – 200 years old) with the old city. The Georgian grain and uniformity is truely impressive. (I’ve grabbed and attached some images from maps.live.com to show what will be lost.) By the way some superficial neglect is inevitable when a developer land banks and evicts tennant retailers and businesses but I don’t believe that the structure of these buildings has been compromised.

My second objection is on the basis of the frankly old-fashioned nature of the development which I assume is driven by the desire to keep costs down. This is a bit of fantasy I guess but ideally, I’d love to see the whole of Rutland and Patrick Streets restored sensitively with small boutique street facing units. I’d like two new intersecting pedestrian streets permeating the block – these would be lined with fronts to ultra-modern larger unit as are required by many retailers these days. Some underground parking should be provided of course but by facing and integrating into the grain of the city, such a development would provide synergy with all the surrounding streets promoting redevelopment all around.

On the other hand what is proposed is is a large monolithic block which will face the existing streets with curtain walling and more than likely will suck life and vitality out of the surrounding streets and blocks. This effect is visible around the other developments in the city which follow this model notwithstanding the differences as pointed out by CologneMike.

I also recognise that there is a dillema here; investment and development is very badly needed in the city so it does not feel right to be so negative. However, I feel that a development of this type will – after an initial period of excitement – be very detrimental in the long term to this part of the city. From what I saw the last time I was in Limerick; I think the Henry St/Bedford row area is one example of the type of regeneration the city should be aiming for; pedestrianised streets and the integration of the existing street pattern and as much historic stock as possible.

Going past yesterday it looked like a rough enough job done demolishing the warehouse structure behind the hanging gardens building – looking along the side of it one could see the brickwork quite a bit jagged at the back of the retained structure. The artists impression of the box planned behind it and the post office building is not inspiring.

Good to see that the site on the corner is to be redeveloped – the warehouse type building there at the moment is no loss. At least even if a bit overshadowed by whatever goes on the corner, the hanging gardens building will remain visible enough with the adjoining post office building remaining as it is on the streetfront. It would be good though to see a lower level on the Henry Street side of the corner to match the rest of the block which isn’t changing in height (also I presume the youth centre on the next block isn’t going anywhere soon either). Even four storeys would be better than five – the Hanging Gardens is actually close enough to three storeys rather than just two.

The aerial photography also illustrates the brutality of Healy Partners office and retail development at 103/4 O Connell Street. This lump of a building smashes straight through what was a fine uniform Georgian terrace. Limerick City Council initially refused to allow the demolition of the two Georgian structures however something obviously changed, maybe they fell down “accidentally” during construction. The sheer bulk of the side elevation facing Lower Cecil Street is absolutely ridiculous, especially considering the low-rise character of this portion of the street. No doubt this elevation is caked in beautiful sandstone cladding just like the front.:rolleyes:

Facade

jimg is absolutely right.
There is either no civic pride or else a black hole of aesthetic ignorance in Limerick City Council.
There is an utter inability to appreciate what we have and the lack of imagination to aspire to something that isn’t ‘developer-lead’.

This sounds like an echo of the arguments that were being made in Dublin 30 or more years ago. Conservation and commerce can coexist. In fact, a city centre full of preserved and imaginatively reused buildings is a far more attractive place than any suburban shopping mall or ‘precinct’.
I have a dream!

Here’s a list of things I’d love to see happen in Limerick:
-all remaining Georgian buildings protected – no matter how insignificant or run down. If they’re tumbledown – get an enforecement order.

-the city council to have a coherent plan about the conservation of th historic city centre – not wetting their knickers at the thought of all the rates revenue they’ll collect when some developer comes along offering to demolish half of the city centre.

– grants for all owner of such buildings to renovate, restore and make them workable (replace white plastic windows with proper sashes)

-the roofline of the city to be established and good quality infill buildings in the vacant gaps (This has been achieved on the Belltable side of O’Connell st. – the red sandstone building fits in very well)

– proper pavements using native stone. We’ve really lowered the bar with that uneven grey concrete that constitutes the footpath of O’Connell st. – I’ve seen better croncrete work on silage pits.
The Bedford row/ Thomas st. paving is a bit ostentatious but at least it’s of good quality – despite all the clutter.

-All telegraph and electricity poles to be put underground.

– no more megaliths – i.e. buying and demolishing 4 or 5 houses and replacing them with one ugly office that we all know will be torn down again in 20 years time. Smaller buildings are more sustainable – they can be put to a multiplicity of uses whereas larger ones go obsolete very quickly. Look at Mt. Kennet. Also Harvey’s quay and the Mariot will hardly stand the test of time (the latter looks like something Sam Stevenson might have done on a bad day – all that reflective glass – very 1980s)

I couldn’t disagree more.
Of course redevelopment and new building should happen in the city centre but please, let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water.

The opera centre is very ambitious but the current plan goes to the very heart of what is wrong with Limerick City Council. They are willing to foresake the streetscape of Rutland St./Patrick st. in order to bring in the rates cheque.
The fact that Rutland st./ Patrick st. is a relatively intact continuous streetscape seems to be of absolutely no concern to the city council.
The houses in themselves are no great shakes architecturally but they are intact and represent what was originally envisioned by the 18th builders.
Does the entrance into the centre have to be that big?
I have no problem with the filling in of the A shaped area behind Ellen st./Patrick/Rutland St. with a modern development so long as the street is preserved – including doors that open on to the street. We don’t want it to become like Pearse st. in Dublin where TCD have bricked up all the doors and windows of the shops.

They obviously cannot see what poor planning has done to the middle section of O’Connell st. from Burger King up to AIB – a nightmare of different rooflines and shite buildings.

All becomes well again beyond that.