well what about the developments popping up in the shannonside ?
- This topic has 2,478 replies, 127 voices, and was last updated 15 years, 1 month ago by
.
- Posts
Over the last week or so, windows have been boarded up ie, the AIB bank etc!! Why??? This is a fair indication that The Opera Centre is ‘way down the track’ all that is offered, regarding the Opera Centre is the usual un-researched /unofficial reporting from Limk.Post. They say, work will commence within the next 6-8 weeks. I say, who, what, where and when did Limk.Post get this information (where are the document facrts)? .My guess there are none!
In the meantime, the newly erected boards all over Patrick st and Ellen St, will become assailed by freebie bill posters (maybe they are not free, and City Council are getting some recompense for same),! I would not be surprised, after all, such defacing of City property would not be tolerated in any other City/County in Ireland. I ask the elected City Council to honour it’s people and come forward with facts regarding the Opera Centre if the truth be, (and I believe I’m right) that the Opera Centre is at least a year off tell us and in doing so, consider the remaining businesses by not allowing the area to turn into downtown no-one’s land, but most of all(once again) stop treating all of us as Mushrooms, ie feeding us bullshit and keeping us in the dark.
Fairy:::mad:
@Tuborg wrote:
This article appeared in one of the mid week editions of the Limerick Leader, it sure didn’t take long for the knives to come out for this one! Looks like they’ve been checking us out here on archiseek aswell!:D
Well Dan, are you going to seek a meeting with some of these councilors you refer to?
I think they should carry out some independent research before articles go to print. . . .:rolleyes:
@PoxyShamrock wrote:
Not at all!
It’s an early 00’s structure.
Around 2001 I think? 😛Ha, wow well if it’s that recent then there’s really no excuse!
@KeepAnEyeOnBob wrote:
Actually I think the old restored warehouse is nicely shown up against the Marriot etc. It’s even more of an interesting feature now with it being entirely freestanding and surrounded by the modern buildings.
The boathouse replacement looks monstrous. It would really block the view up the river and detract from the bridge. Surely any replacement should be discreet and at most two storeys in order to be no more obtrusive than the current building. The bridge is the more important feature.
TBF.
The Marriot does look out of proportion to the surrounding buildings and especially the warehouse. But Henry street is still not completed yet. In a few years time it would be better to judge the overall layout of blending the old and new. IMO I think Henry street looks really modern and continental in feel. The mixing is whats making this street look fantastic. At least its not like the Dublin docklands with all buildings in monotoned five storey slabs beside each other.There is still 3/4 valuable slots of land/buildings to be redeveloped here too. So it will be interesting to see what come off the ground. Building heights range of 10 storeys to 3 storeys, so the picture taken of marriot and the warehouse does look a bit extreme from that angle, but from other angles its fine. the Warehouse height fits the corner nicely as with the other buildings down the street, while Henry street heights are much higher, land values and width allow this.
@BTH wrote:
Ha, wow well if it’s that recent then there’s really no excuse!
This was one of the most run down section of the riverside area in Limerick and still is from looking from that angle obviously.
But this was pretty much a breath of fresh air to what was probably there before I’d imagine. Even taking into consideration the shite prefab Dunnes building is a across the road. It may not be splendid in arcitecture, But it was the start of the Riverside regeneration. It was only in the early 00s that this riverside project began. Give Limerick a break will ye.
Look at the Dublin Docklands for example. Many of the first and present buildings designed are nothing in comparison to the designs and vision of what is proprosed. Limerick Riverside regeneration is now taking a step further with high rises, as you can see further downstream.
Dave, I’ve already said its definitely not the worst I’ve seen, even if it does look pretty dated for when it was built – it’s very much in the late 80’s style when everyone was obsessed by Aldo Rossi… It’s just a case that the site got redeveloped too soon – before there was real ambition and flair applied to these development sites. I often think that much of Galway got redeveloped in this way. it all happened too soon so that instead of buildings of quality and ambition, the city is now afflicted with horrors like the Port Mor and the Jurys hotel at Spanish Arch, some of the dreadful buildings at Dun Aengus and the Docks and various other bog – standard developments through the city. The attitude was, “…sure it’s development, who cares what it looks like!”. Limerick is lucky that it’s building boom happened when it did!
Yep, Henry Street and the quays are a mixed bag but that’s not entirely a bad thing. It’s nice enough, and replaced horrors like Spaights and the Savoy complex. Still think it was a pity the granary building that O’Mahony’s schoolbook and crafts sections used be in got knocked (corner Shannon St./Harvey’s Quay). Had the building been fully restored when O’Mahony’s set up shop there or were they just camping in the bottom two floors?
The ESB building on the next block could do with being knocked and the site developed. It would be interesting too to see the Garda site redeveloped if the guards moved to a larger site (where though?!) Also the Smyth’s warehouse is pretty dreary!
On up Henry Street and onto the Dock Road I think it goes a bit more downhill. I really suspect some of those apartment blocks such as Mount Kennett, Steamboat Quay, even around Radio House, are going to become (more?) ghetto-like.
With the Garda Station and the ESB developed, the riverside would truly be special. Isn’t Edward Street the ideal location for the new Garda station? Plenty of space, a street in need of regeneration and also the City Council has a large site there that management seems to be desperate to pass onto developers to put up a “mixed-used development” – Edward Street does not need more retail space!
@dave123 wrote:
TBF.
The Marriot does look out of proportion to the surrounding buildings and especially the warehouse. But Henry street is still not completed yet. In a few years time it would be better to judge the overall layout of blending the old and new. IMO I think Henry street looks really modern and continental in feel. The mixing is whats making this street look fantastic. At least its not like the Dublin docklands with all buildings in monotoned five storey slabs beside each other.There is still 3/4 valuable slots of land/buildings to be redeveloped here too. So it will be interesting to see what come off the ground. Building heights range of 10 storeys to 3 storeys, so the picture taken of marriot and the warehouse does look a bit extreme from that angle, but from other angles its fine. the Warehouse height fits the corner nicely as with the other buildings down the street, while Henry street heights are much higher, land values and width allow this.
Have a look at the Marriott coming in over the New Bridge!
@KeepAnEyeOnBob wrote:
Yep, Henry Street and the quays are a mixed bag but that’s not entirely a bad thing. It’s nice enough, and replaced horrors like Spaights and the Savoy complex. Still think it was a pity the granary building that O’Mahony’s schoolbook and crafts sections used be in got knocked (corner Shannon St./Harvey’s Quay). Had the building been fully restored when O’Mahony’s set up shop there or were they just camping in the bottom two floors?
The ESB building on the next block could do with being knocked and the site developed. It would be interesting too to see the Garda site redeveloped if the guards moved to a larger site (where though?!) Also the Smyth’s warehouse is pretty dreary!
On up Henry Street and onto the Dock Road I think it goes a bit more downhill. I really suspect some of those apartment blocks such as Mount Kennett, Steamboat Quay, even around Radio House, are going to become (more?) ghetto-like.
although i agree with you i personally wouldnt be worried about that area..am i right in saying that i saw somewhere that the city council actually ownes a few of those sites including jurys inn? i also heard that they would be likely to redevlop that whole area should a good plan come to mind..or something along those words!
Morlan, drew my attention to “Microsoft Virtual Earth“ Bird’s Eye view of Limerick. 😎
Images
- Riverpoint
- Upper Henry Street
- Lower Henry Street
- Hilton Hotel
- Peoples Park
- Railway Station
Opera Shopping Centre Update
Limerick shops around (Irish Independent.)
By Con Power Wednesday May 14 2008
LIMERICK’s city centre retail space looks set for further expansion with the latest news from its new Opera Centre shopping complex, as well as the Thomas Street centre.
The Opera Centre is set to be significantly increased. Originally envisaged as costing around €250m, a revamped blueprint has now been rolled out, boosting the value of the project to an estimated €350m by scaling up some of the key elements.
A reconfigured scheme has been drawn up by promoter Regeneration Developments. This increases the scale of the ambitious project to around 38,000sqm, compared with the original 28,000sqm plan.
The new design, by Douglas Wallace Architects, follows the acquisition by the developer of city centre buildings, including the old town hall.
The additional buildings will be used to provide an improved streetscape onto Patrick Street and Ellen Street. An additional 500 basement car spaces will now be provided.
The two retail anchors have been increased to around 16,000sqm combined — one of which will be directly accessed via the new basement car park. There have been unconfirmed reports that Marks & Spencer is considering occupying one of these anchors.
The promoters expect to start on-site construction by the autumn and the project is expected to take between 18 months and two years to complete.
The proposed development is expected to provide a welcome jobs boost, with forecasts for the original plan predicting that 1,200 jobs will be generated
“This is the one of the most exciting city centre regeneration schemes to be proposed and puts Limerick city centre back where it belongs amongst the top retail shopping centres in the country,” commented Robert Bloomer of agent Savills Hamilton Osborne King.
The agents report “excellent” demand already from regional, national and international retail operators who are keen to gain representation in — or, in some cases, re-enter — the city centre.
Meanwhile, other news from Limerick is that the Thomas Street Centre development is now under construction in the heart of the city’s shopping/ business precinct.
This complex is due for completion in September and will provide six new retail units.
Joint agents O’Connor Murphy Gubbins and Rooney Auctioneers are quoting rents of between €753-€968 per sqm for ground floor space, €108 pe sqm for the basement and €215 per sqm for the first floor.@CologneMike wrote:
Opera Shopping Centre Update
It took me a while to figure out just what I was looking at in that render, on closer inspection, its the Patrick Street/Ellen Street corner?
What Douglas Wallace have effectively served up is a complete re-design of the original scheme. According to that image anyway, all the georgian buildings on the left hand side of the street are to be demolished with just Quinns pub retained. Have a look at the Patrick Street/Rutland Street elevations, the glass structure is considerably oversailing numerous georgian buildings! The plan is literally rubbishing the conditions laid down by An Bord Pleanala.
So they intend to have this started by the autumn? Some chance of that happening, this one is definitely heading back to ABP anyway!:rolleyes:
Those are impressive and informative pictures, but they appear to show almost grotesque levels of overdevelopment, with old Georgian terraces and warehouses crowded out and overshadowed by testosterone-laden commercial blocks (not necessarily bad in themselves). Progress?
I didn’t like the original proposal much as the history of such monolithic developments in Limerick is dire (Dunnes Liddy Street or Arthur’s Quay are nearby examples) and it was pretty much the Arthur’s Quay model but bigger; i.e. buy up as much of an entire city block as possible and level most of it except for a couple of token Georgians creating an “inward looking” city block with integrated car parking which extinguishes the life of the surrounding street scape except for streams of pedestrians and traffic coming and going from the entrances.
I didn’t like the gimmicky and OTT Patrick St./Ellen St. entrance of the original plan either. But at least (after ABP had their say), the design left some of the original grain and Georgian character of the surrounding streets. This is much worse and looks ridiculous; a truly massive monolithic development with a couple of Patrick St. Georgean fascades retained; destroying a couple of centuries of Limerick’s history in a stroke.
Limerick city centre needs to compete for retail but developments like this (and we’ve heard the hype before to justify them) destroy the one unique feature that the city centre can offer that no out-of-town centre can and that is a street/city scape and genuine historical building stock. I’m not at all fond of the toytown architecture of Cruises Street but it is evidently very successful in retail terms; at least it seems that way in terms of footfall. It has survived where the monolithic and inward looking shopping centres have failed after a few years of initial excitement. It is surprising that the planners in Limerick have not recognised the virtues of this type of model of retail development offering permeability and public street space leaving existing building stock intact as much as is practical. Other planners have seen the light; all the proposed city centre retail developments in Dublin feature giving new streets to the public realm. A development like this for Dublin wouldn’t survive the first pre-planning meeting and I don’t see why Limerick has to accept something so inferior and something so destructive.
Granary now part of Limerick’s €350m Opera Centre (Limerick Leader)
By Anne Sheridan
CONSTRUCTION on the €350m Opera Centre is anticipated to start this September, as the developers have re-applied for planning permission to incorporate four more buildings – including The Granary – into their plans.
But shoppers will have to wait at least three years to enter the doors of the centre, where Marks & Spencer are rumoured to have their first outlet in the city centre, by which time the Coonagh Cross development and ParkPoint retail centre in Castletroy will be completed.
Robert Bloomer of Hamilton Osborne King said the developers are hopeful that this new application “will be more straightforward” than the last contentious application, which was passed by An Bord Pleanala after numerous local objections.
However, the developers could potentially face another major battle with City Hall, as they are seeking to include The Granary – a listed building –- and home to Trinity Rooms nightclub, as well as the city library, into the development.
Fine Gael Cllr Kevin Kiely, a member of the council’s strategic planning committee, said this application could take up to two years to process if there are objections from the public, and has major concerns about how the development has proceeded since its inception two years ago.
“One of my major concerns is that they haven’t entered into any negotiations with Trinity Rooms, where about 90 people are working. Furthermore, all of lower Patrick Street is now closed and it’s not doing anything for the image of the city. I think they jumped the gun in taking those retailers out too soon and it doesn’t look right to have all those shops boarded up,” said Cllr Kiely.
But Joe Clarke, manager of Trinity Rooms, said they would be delighted to be part of the Opera Centre, which he believes will breathe more life into the city centre, and confirmed that they will not be forced to find another venue for the club.
Some 275 jobs will be generated during the construction phase and approximately 800 full and part time jobs will be created once the centre is open and trading.
@jimg wrote:
Limerick city centre needs to compete for retail but developments like this (and we’ve heard the hype before to justify them) destroy the one unique feature that the city centre can offer that no out-of-town centre can and that is a street/city scape and genuine historical building stock.
Jim, your words of warning on the Opera Shopping Centre proposal should be taken on board by all Limerick folk interested into how their city is developing. You see a negative repeat of Arthur’s Quay in the Opera proposal on an even larger scale. I really hope your fears will be proved wrong for Limericks sake! Alas there is very little material about for people to judge it in detail. Mushroom treatment pure! Pity that local councillors don’t force the availability of information into the public domain.
When comparing Dunnes Stores (Shopping Centre) and the Arthur’s Quay Shopping Centre with the proposed Opera Shopping Centre, one would have to differentiate between the three of them.
Dunnes Stores built in the 1970’s, was never a shopping centre in its own right, nor was it a department store like (Roches, Todd’s or Cannock’s). They built their “out of town†model on the fringe of the city centre, with groceries on the ground floor and textiles on the first floor. There were a few independent retailers operating there but that was it. It relied totally on the Arthur’s Quay surface car park back then. That was one of it’s downfalls for not having it’s own underground car parking and for not having the ambition back then to build a representative 4 storey city department store.
Arthur’s Quay Shopping Centre built in the 1980’s, in my opinion is firstly a multi-storey car block, with a supermarket (Quinsworth/Tesco) on the ground floor and a handful of independent retailers leading up to it. Its street façade reflects the dominance of the parking house within.
Limerick city centre needs new vibrant Department stores, alas the minimalist approach by the likes of Roches Stores (Debenhams) and Brown Thomas who sit on key city blocks is most disappointing. The city centre has lacked in having large available central sites in the past to attract new department stores. Today even department store retailing is changing in where floor space is now being leased out to independent retail chains i.e. the department stores themselves are becoming more akin to shopping centres.
Limericks Georgian building stock and their practical commercial / retail use remains a dilemma!
With the Opera Shopping Centre proposal on the fringe of the city centre, one hopes for the best and fears for the worst.
Wow!
I hope really they have good traffic managment with the extra parking and the fact the the actual shopping centre will now attract even more traffic.. Now that the city pedstrianisation and Oribital route begin to bear fruit. I Hope the private developers are paying attention to this and work with the new layouts.
The devlopers and City Councilors should be working together on this matter! Anyway If they get’s this right then I’m really happy on that aspect, of planning.BTW, The Circular road any update on it?
Is the tunnel (orbital route) still going under when the Arthur’s quay blcoked is getting knocked.
Anyone know any actual links to this? Thanks/Anyway back on the Opera Centre
It should go ahead and get planning permission IMO. On the basis that many of the old is been restored and that the shopping centre fits into this historic part of the city. It would look ten time’s worse if we have a 10 times bigger repeat of the Arthur’s quay shite. But one the other hand Limerick city centre needs a proper shopping mall, which it is really lacking atm It needs to be the core of Limerick’s commericial zone. Limerick is unique in that, the suburban shopping centres are the actual cores of the city at the moment. That needs to be changed in order for the city centre to compete, attract retailers back into the centre and give reason to make business as usual.
The developers do seem to want to make efforts in trying to incoporate the old with the new, in fairness. Or is this misleading?:(I can’t rarely see any negatives to it at all from my obsevation and what I’ve look at. The positives does seem to outweight the negatives to me.
Most of the Georgion around the Irishtown area is in fact very derelict. And you cannot expect all of the derelict Georgion to be restored to its once former glory. Life now goes on and the old cannot all stay, cities need progress and this is progress for the city. I’m not one of these guys who want to knock and destroy our heritage.If it was the case, where the argument suggest that “all” or “most” of the Georgian should be retained, then whats the point of building anything in the city centre that is not georgian
Some of the old buildings have rotted to the point of no option but only to knock, and rightly so. I hope there is a reasonable chunk of the georgion quarter and kept into the S.C.The Opera plan is being unfairly judged in comparison to other the ugly shopping complexes built in other cities in Ireland and even in Limerick.. There are Malls built in the other regional centres where in the old quarters have being replace with an American style mall full of blandness etc. This is not bland or cheap or souless IMO from the pictures above. Are there anymore pictures/models to show? It would be better for all of us to judge it,and really see if its flawed or otherwise. It would be respectful at least for the people of Limerick to actually see what is been built in their city if planning persmission gets the thumbs up anyway.
On a side not to bear in mind, I hope that the new buildings will blend and restore what’s nessecary and
apropriate to the historic context of the area too.
I just hope the new architecture will look well shaped and blending the old with the new.
As CologneMike said in his previous post, Arthurs Quay is not really a mall, its only a multi storey with a few retail units and Tesco ground florr supermarket.My vision, of the Opera centre, will be, that this Development will bring life back into the city centre. It will boost the economy not just for the city but the entire midwest. It will attract people from Cork and Galway, like Crescent is doing atm.
Attractivness and vitality wil open up all over the city centre. The core feel of a the city will be brought back to life. and thats how a city should feel. The city is well known for not having a city centre core feeling, like Galway or Cork has.footfall will rise, the city centre can finally attract nationally not just from the the shoppers locally that
currently flock to the suburban regional centres etc. The Crescent is currently the cities top destination in Limerick for shopping. City centre needs this core back.
The core is the key point when it comes to the design of the Opera centre to me.
it will open up the English and Irishtown centre’s with the Georgion and city centre proper. It’s unique in that it borders all four regions of the CIty.
and will be the “actual” heart of the city centre:) Which it is in fact. it will just bring all parts of the city closer together. The land values of the Irishtown and old English town, will rise, and investment and regeneration will start there too. Just like the pedstrianisation and recent developments on Henry street have done.Another side to it, for me is the shopping centre will have an uniquness (or I hope) it will stand out as it’s meant too.
it own architectural merit. It borders the Irishtown, Edwardian, Georgion, Victorian, and of course some of todays
Modern buildings that fill the present. so it should have the arcitecture of its own, and some of the above to give the “coreness” or central of the city. Does anyone know what I’m saying, Not sure If I’m getting my point accross directly?Well I just think
It’s important that the Opera Centre can itself takes features out of all of Limericks fine arichitectural history, into the new “design” the core of the city.This is my first post on this most interesting site where conflicting opinions are generally accepted graciously unlike some others that I contribute to.
In my opinion the proposed Opera Centre is a wonderful development which on completion will greatly boost Limerick City’s commercial and social life. Inevitably, all such developments have limitations and the Opera Centre is more introverted than one would like. It would be preferrable to see greater access to the proposed centre from Rutland, Patrick and Ellen Streets and a retention of the niche shops that were present a few years ago. The plan to keep nos 4 and 4 Rutland Street as a distinct unit is welcome. Currently, only the Celtic Bookshop remains while Ladakh Jewellers, Munster Rugby, Glynn Buthchers, the Post Office etc etc are all closed and boarded up and the area virually ‘dead.’
The developers hope to attract an annual footfall of circa 150,000 peope per week, 7,500,000 per year. This would entail landing a development as large as the Dundrum Shopping Centre right in the middle of the city. These shoppers will benefit greatly not just the occupants of shops in the centre but the entire city.
At the moment many people in the outlying catchment area of Limerick City do not shop there. I am very familiar with mid-Clare, a well populated and generally affluent area which should be a natural part of Limerick’s catchment.
Currently, the vast majority of these people visit either Galway, Cork or Dublin cities, when shopping for ‘significant’ and expensive occasions such as First Communion, Confirmations and Weddings. For Limerick City to compete it must allow large city developments such a sthe Opera Centre develop. The city cannot wait much longer or alternative developments elsewhere will mean that centres such as the Opera Centre will be no longer necessary or viable. Limerick City must become involved in a competitive trading environment with Galway and Cork. As one of the regular Clare visitors to Glaway I read the local Galwegian papers. Invariably, when they discuss proposed large retail developments they outline how they will attract cutomers and tenants to Galway at the expense of Limerick City.
I admit that I am not an expert on arhitecture but would ask those calling for the retention of all the Georgian buildings in the affected area to take a walk along Ellen Street and look up at the upper stories of these buildings. From a casual observation some with extensive vegetaion growth appear as if they are could collapse and without this deveopment soon will.
While, the proposed plans demand serious consideration, I think that overall, they offer Limerick City a unique opportunity of taking a huge leap forward, and deserves strong local support.I know the image is microscopic but it looks like I will have to revise my earlier observation that Quins pub is to be retained under the new plans. Its fairly apparent that what we can see in the CGI is the Michael Street/Ellen Street corner where Quins now stands. According to the NIAH this former bonded limestone warehouse dates from the mid 18th Century. Even though it has been neglected for some time and is in need of fairly significant restoration work, it is still a highly attractive building and indeed this type of structure is pretty rare in Limerick so therefore any thoughts of demolition shouldnt even be considered by the planners. Unfortunately though Limerick City Council have never had much time for the city’s architectural heritage so theres no guarantee it will be safeguarded.
What really gets me is just why the developers feel the destruction of this building is somehow more justified now than it was in the previous application when they proposed to renovate it as a bar/restaurant. We have known for some time that the developers have absolutely no interest in preserving the 5 georgians on Ellen street as stipulated by ABP and indeed last year Limericks senior planner Dick Tobin said that he believed this condition was a mistake and should not be implemented.:rolleyes: Thanks to the wonders of Microsofts virtual earth I was able to rotate the view and check out the rears of these buildings on Ellen Street and in fairness all of them seem to be in pretty poor shape (See Attached). However this does not mean they are beyond salvation an indeed 2 buildings are recommended for full conservation while the facades of the remaining 3 are to be retained. Im not for one minute saying that facade retention is fully acceptable but obviously its much more preferable than the total loss of these buildings from the streetscape.
Quins, Ellen Street Limerick
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
