well what about the developments popping up in the shannonside ?

Limerick is great. The Georgian quarter is second only to Dublin’s Georgian in Ireland and really deserves more attention. Unfortunately, the city’s architectural fabric has been badly damaged over the last 50 or 60 years even more so than Dublin in my opinion. There’s been tonnes of medieval stuff lost in Limerick during the period while I reckon there was little of that age in Dublin anyway. It’s a great pity because Limerick was apparently the most impressive city in Ireland in the early 16th century because of the prosperity brought by trading. John’s castle and St. Mary’s are nice but have no context today. Even up to the 1940s and 1950s there were remains of the old walls visible all over Irishtown and Englishtown and a true mediaval character to those parts of town. The tiny sections of the old wall left today are a reminder of what’s been lost; they’re huge – about the height of a modern 3 story building. Even over the last 10 or 20 years they’ve altered what was left of the medieval street patterns of King’s Island. Kings Island is now effectivly a large council housing estate with two medieval landmarks.

I also like the new taller developments along the docks. The river is so wide here that the height of the buildings works very well although many of the buildings are pretty boring in other respects. From O’Callaghan’s strand or coming into the city from the Ennis Rd, they provide a strong statement that the city begins at the water’s edge; so it really feels like you are “entering” a city when you cross the bridges (from the north), instead of the the usual experience in Irish cities where there are long boring transitions between countryside, suburbia, older suburbia and the town centre.

I’ve heard conflicting opinions from visitors to Limerick. A number of people I know (non-Irish) raved about the city and found it to be very beautiful while most Irish people who visit come away with a negative impression. Perhaps this is because of it’s reputation.

I agree that limerick has some very high quality streetscapes, especially the Georgian areas however my impression (irish person, not from Limerick) is that it lacks any quality public spaces (the streetscapes aside). I never feel like there is a central point. Aurthers quay park is vastly underused addition which feels too tucked away from O’ Connel street behind a Dunnes stores which has seen better days.
I think that a lot people from outside Limerick only know it as they used to have to pass through on the way to Clare or kerry and have the impression of a one street town. Limerick has a lot of potential and there has been enormous improvements over the past fifteen years. I hope this trend continues.
I also think that the by-pass from the Castletroy side is one of the most important projects for the city and years overdue. I presume it has opened as live abroad so have not visited in a couple of years. Has it made a big difference?
It would be good if This thread could be kept updated in the same fashion as the ‘look at the state of Cork’ thread.

Don’t forget about the People’s Park off Pery Square at the top of the town!

I have not been to Limerick for a while. Can somebody post links to photos of the city at it’s best? Both new and old.

@dave123 wrote:

Limerick needs to be seen and recogniesed as ireland’s third city

Galway is Ireland’s third City and largest sprawling retail warehousing park. Don’t get me started on Limerick

Galway has a smaller population than Limerick and is dwarved economically by Limerick. Limerick and Cork have “grand” centres; i.e. tallish building and wide “city” streets while Galway is a small country town now hidden by a sprawl of roundabouts, suburban housing estates and shopping centres.

Galway is a real disapointment. I used to love visiting it back when it had a sort of hayday in the late 80s/early 90s. For years, I’d recommend it to anyone visiting Ireland or contemplating a visit and used to spend time there myself at every opportunity. Slowly over the last 10 years I’ve started to realise that just like Limerick suffers somewhat unjustly from its bad reputation (another city I visit often), Galway has been benefitting from an unreasonably positive reputation for years. Besides the planning issues, it’s turned into a town with serious anti-social problems because of its “Temple Bar” like atmosphere and little to recommend for it during the day besides a small area between Eyre Sq and Bridge St./Mill St. Admittedly, I’m probably overcompensating by being negative because of my earlier enthusiasm for the place. For me, Limerick is a far more interesting place than Galway.

Interesting thread. Limerick deserves to feature here more. Limerick has turned to face the shannon quite successfully over the last 15 years or so.

On the downside Georgian buildings badly disfigured by the pvc window plague. Traffic seems terrible. Hardly a bus lane or a cycle lane anywhere, even around the university!!

THe crime thing seems to have calmed down for the time being so that’s one thing. Limerick’s image problem is not a new thing but in some ways its lack of pretence and Blarney/Temple bar nonsence is quite refreshing. It’s a real place!

@dave123 wrote:

limerick is…
its IS SAFER THAN Cork or DUBLIN!!!
CHEERIO!!!

Em…statistically that’s actually not true about Cork, but I totally agree that Limerick gets unfair treatment in the media and the like – and you’re perfectly right about defending that.

Af for high-rise projects planned for Limerick, other than those already under construction, I’m only aware of 1 other project – but I’ll get back to you on that when I know more about it.

Couldn’t agree more with the earlier points made about Galway? In ten year’s time – it will be a model for how not to develop a city.
We all know Dublin is bad for planning but Galway is making the very same mistakes and magnifying them five-fold.
The new ring road is being built with out-of-town shopping centres as its first priority rather than funnelling traffic away from the city centre.
‘Galway is Ireland’s … largest sprawling retail warehousing park’ – a perfect description.

limerick quays with riverpoint building (under construction)
i think that when the chunnel opens they ll do a version of o’connell st on o connell st, widen pavements etc etc.

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=39643&papass=&sort=1
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=39646&papass=&sort=1

yeah, i also heard of rumours that a block on o connells street wher supermacs is situated is being knocked (apart from supermacs itself) for new develpments .
i think henry street is really looking cool ! if you think back 3 or four years ago the state it was in !
building is everywhere in the city at the moment!! good for limerick!!!

wish i had a intelligent computer that could load som pictures ………lol oh well

Wonderful photo of the former Limerick Ryan Hotel (Ennis Road) in todays Irish Times – It was taken from a helicopter hired by local residents who wanted to see what was going on behind the HUGE green canvas fence that surrounds the site. The developers have been served with an enforcement order to reinstate a 7 story wing that they had been partially removed!
All this on a development that was opposed by EVERY councillor. The assumption appears to have been that once it’s covered up by a big tent you can do what you want!

[The Times article does not mention however that the 7 story wing was truely hideous]

Hi BTH. We’ll just have to agree to differ regarding Galway. Regarding my reference to anti-social problems, I guess feelings of personal safety are very subjective; all it takes is the witnessing one violent act to colour your perception of a place. Alternatively hearing anecdotes can create an impression of a place which will affect the way you react to people and occurances.

Galway has a tiny core around Shop St. which has a certain amount of charm because of the retention of medieval street patterns (like Temple Bar in Dublin). The rest is featureless and dull in my opinion and as someone else pointed out, the the way the planners Galway have allowed it to develop makes Dublin look like a model city. I’m glad to hear that they might be starting to correct the sprawl.

By the way I agree with you regarding the horrible Cruises St. but still there is far more interesting architecture in Limerick than in Galway.

hi beth, im not going to defend or argue your point about galway but galways really does not feel like a city.
I think its silly to mention clogged up streets ??? what is your point ??? Nor do i see the point in bringing up nightlife ??? take a look at galway its full of roundabouts and the notorious headford road . u have retail parks in the city centre !!!! every town has its fair share of traffic probs, So there’s no point argueing that.

my second point is what is wrong with wide open streets ? limerick has midieval street plan around king john castle and behind criuses street !!! hmmmm.
One major difference about limerick to some irish cities its a through town as its on the cork to sligo , dublin to kerry?clare routes which must go through the city so of course there is more traffic as it has to cross over the shannon, i hope that answers your questions.

once the tunnell is done it will take a lot of traffic out of limerick

on a positive note i do like shop street in Galway.

My point is that the centre of Limerick is extremely unfriendly to pedestrians whereas Galway, through effective pedestrianisation, has managed to create a city centre which is completely free from through traffic. As a result it is a much more pleasant place to be. I’d be amazed if anyone disagreed. Granted the shannon tunnel will provide some relief for Limerick city centre but It will still have the wide-open, windswept aspect that it currently has. I know that limerick has small pockets of medieval character but they are very secondary to the dominant grid pattern.
I would contend that Galway’s success as a place to be is actually due to it’s compact and comfortable core. This small area encompasses everything from very high rates of residential occupancy right in the centre of the city, a huge variety of bars and nightlife, eating places, offices and public buildings. This adds to the sense of Galway as being a vibrant and exciting place to live and to be. Limerick simply does not have that benefit.

Yes, the Headford road is a disaster zone, but, like other areas of the city centre in Galway, plans are afoot to transform the area. A huge application has been lodged to transform the awful shopping centre, creating new external streets, a much expanded Dundrum-style shopping and entertainment centre and a gateway building at the ring-road side which will contain a new municipal gallery. From what I have seen it’s not a bad scheme and will have the effect of properly extending the city centre out along the Headford road. It’ll be a matter of time before similar developments are proposed for the retail park side of the road.
I have to laugh at those dismissing Galway as being “full of roundabouts”. As I seem to recall Limerick has a fair amount of them as well…. As well as plenty of crappy retail parks. In fact didn’t they just build the new county offices (fantastic building but bloody awful context) as an extention of the nearby retail park?

Anyway, I realize that all these arguments are pretty pointless! Its the case that both cities have positives and negatives. Its only my opinion that Galway has more going for it as a place to live, work, study, socialise etc…

By the way just to be really really pedantic, Galway is still officially the third largest city in Ireland with a population of 65,832. Limerick city contains 54,023 people. Of course Limerick’s actual population whan the county areas are taken into consideration is closer to 87,000. However were areas such as Barna and Oranmore, which are just outside Galway’s city boundary taken into account in a similar way the Galway figure would be closer to 80,000. Add to that the very rapid increase in Galway’s population which is ongoing and there isn’t really too much to call when it comes to population.

any opinions on this new development in the people’s park in limerick? big write up in the Limerick leader, seems to have caused a bit of contoversy

http://www.limerick-leader.ie/issues/20050507/news01.html

Thought this thread was about Limerick… and not a Galway versus Limerick rant… seems as if this third city tag is causing some hostility between these two.
Anyway, isn’t Tallaght arguably Ireland’s third largest town 🙂

@dave123 wrote:

well bth just to let u know galway is a small town compared to limerick! you can try add all the towns around galway even 10 miles out like spiddal and oranmore . but Castletroy a suburb of limerick has a population of
nearly 25000 and is not even in the city boundary or raheen,not to mention into clare and and county limerick !!! well what about shannon town and patrickswell and maybe annacotty???? you just can’t argue that!
greater limerick is 100.000 if the boundary extemtion goes ahead .

anyway anybody know plans for the 250 acre deveolpment at the shannon docks ? i got a bit of information on http://www.riversidecity.ie if anyne wants to check it out !!!!

btw where does the info that Limerick is Ireland’s third wealthiest town come from… this doesn’t seem to fit in with the cost of property in Limerick.

@dave123 wrote:

i posted it .
the information about third wealtiest place in ireland , foud it out on the http://www.cso.ie and the environment edior of the irish times printed an article of the regional cities of ireland a few months back and stated that after dublin and kildare its the wealtiest per capita ….. well hope that ans your question.

Statistics can be used to prove anything – 45% of all people know that! 😀

CSO figures – What difference do they make? Despite that statistic, the perception of the place is still quite poor, and Limerick certainly does not give off an air of a place with such apparent wealth. I think Limerick has made tremendous efforts to change, however I get the feeling that just because there’s development it is being championed irrespective of quality. Must. Try. Harder.

Yes, this thread is going a bit off track but dave123 is correct; the CSO figures were analysed extensively in the Irish Times the last time they came out. However, it should be noted that the CSO figures are by county; it is county Limerick (including Limerick city) that has the highest average income per head after counties Dublin and Kildare. Some of the richest people in Ireland live in county Limerick which might affect the average.

Also as pointed out, the official population figures ignore the fact that huge swathes of the most residential areas of Limerick city are not within the city boundaries which are quite small for historical reasons. This photograph here (http://www.riversidecity.ie/images/Photos/Docklands%20City.jpg) from the “riverside city” site shows the urban quality of Limerick. I’d imagine a similar view of Galway from the air would not look so urban.

The city boundaries of Dublin and Cork are also quite small.

Is it difficult for a borough’s territory to be redefined. Apparently Cork City & County Council’s are at loggerheads due to the redfining of the city’s boundary. Surely this is even more difficult for Limerick City in that some of the areas are actually in county clare.

Anywho for what it’s worth… the cso issued the following figures from the most recent census (2002):

Main Towns
Total Population (including Suburbs or Environs)
Limerick 86,998
Galway 66,163

These figures were for the greater suburban area and included in the case of Limerick those towns in County Clare but deemed to be suburbs of Limerick (Quinnspool, Athlunkard, Fairyhill, etc).

Time to get back to Shannonside

@jimg wrote:

Yes, this thread is going a bit off track but dave123 is correct]http://www.riversidecity.ie/images/Photos/Docklands%20City.jpg[/url]) from the “riverside city” site shows the urban quality of Limerick. I’d imagine a similar view of Galway from the air would not look so urban.

Has much happened in the past few years in the improvement of the centre of Limerick? Any pictures?

Has O’ Connell St come on a bit too – was there about ten years ago when it was unfortunately quite dingy.
It has a feel of Harcourt St in Dublin to to it which is quite strange – with some of its stock looking like Harcourt’s replicas!

Sourthern Georgian is interesting – the doorcases seem to dominate a bit more in facades than other areas of the country – like these houses in Barrington St:

By contrast, windows seem to dominate less in smaller schemes or houses, with facades made up of wall punctuated with windows, rather than windows surrounded by some wall, as often seen in the East 🙂

this whole ‘Limerick’s wealthy’ thing is getting a little tiresome, i thought this page was suppose to be about the developments and architecture of Limerick – not a competitive jibe. People should learn to accept facts – Galway is 3rd largest (in terms of population re: 1986 boundary extension), but Limerick is more urbanly structured (though its city boundaries encompass a smaller population). Cork is larger than both – and if wealth is an issue, Cork generates greater economic output that both Limerick and Galway put together. But likewise, Dublin is larger than Cork and generates an economic output in excess of the aforementioned. Deal with it people, its not a competition. If it comes down to a ‘I drive a bigger car than you’ tit-for-tat, well then Cork, Belfast and Dublin drive bigger cars than both of ye (i was going to use another analogy but its probably too crude for this site 😀 ) Its just the way things are. ye should be proud of yer identities and stand up to them when unfairly treated, both Limerick and Galway have enough merits of their own to be able to discuss pleasantly. i happen to like lots of things about both cities and things i dont like so much but lets get back to what the page title says ‘what about all the developments popping up in shannonside?’ Note developments in the title and as this is an architecture page, these develpments should have some architectural reference or link too. 🙂

Great post Ewan… maybe we should change the name of both towns to cities of the tribes(alism).

@ewankennedy wrote:

this whole ‘Limerick’s wealthy’ thing is getting a little tiresome, i thought this page was suppose to be about the developments and architecture of Limerick – not a competitive jibe. People should learn to accept facts – Galway is 3rd largest (in terms of population re: 1986 boundary extension), but Limerick is more urbanly structured (though its city boundaries encompass a smaller population). Cork is larger than both – and if wealth is an issue, Cork generates greater economic output that both Limerick and Galway put together. But likewise, Dublin is larger than Cork and generates an economic output in excess of the aforementioned. Deal with it people, its not a competition. If it comes down to a ‘I drive a bigger car than you’ tit-for-tat, well then Cork, Belfast and Dublin drive bigger cars than both of ye (i was going to use another analogy but its probably too crude for this site 😀 ) Its just the way things are. ye should be proud of yer identities and stand up to them when unfairly treated, both Limerick and Galway have enough merits of their own to be able to discuss pleasantly. i happen to like lots of things about both cities and things i dont like so much but lets get back to what the page title says ‘what about all the developments popping up in shannonside?’ Note developments in the title and as this is an architecture page, these develpments should have some architectural reference or link too. 🙂

this whole ‘Limerick’s wealthy’ thing is getting a little tiresome, i thought this page was suppose to be about the developments and architecture of Limerick – not a competitive jibe.

Do you see any irony in using this opening line to start a message discussing how much wealth is generated by other Irish cities and how it is more than that of Limerick and Galway and which manages to avoid mentioning anything about any architecture, building or planning?

@jimg wrote:

Do you see any irony in using this opening line to start a message discussing how much wealth is generated by other Irish cities and how it is more than that of Limerick and Galway and which manages to avoid mentioning anything about any architecture, building or planning?

its not meant as a wealth discussion. I was just saying that if thats the way the page is going to be – here’s how it is with the facts, but I was saying that its not the way the page should be. It should be about promoting Limerick’s merits in architecture and development as well as its misgivings, as i mentioned at the end of the post.

I was just saying that if thats the way the page is going to be – here’s how it is with the facts

Well if you’re going to quote some “facts” to settle the discussion, then you should pick some which aren’t so misleading. This has been stated a number of times in the thread; Galway’s official population is hugely inflated by the fact that the OFFICIAL city boundary is massive compared to that for other cities. If you want to go by official city boundaries, then in terms of physical size, Galway is 2.5 times the size of Limerick, 25% bigger than Cork and is just under half the size of Dublin. In fact, in terms of official boundaries, Waterford is bigger than Cork. This shows how it’s nonsense to use official city boundaries to judge the size of a city whether in terms of area covered or population.

Your other “fact” confuses absolute and per-capita wealth. Bangladesh has a bigger (in absolute terms) economy than Switzerland but it would be ridiculous to claim that Bangladeshis were wealthier than the Swiss just because there happens to be 20 times as many of them. When people talk about wealth it is generally in per-head terms. On this basis county Limerick is the third wealthiest in the Republic according to the Central Statistics Office. I imagine that the only reason this fact was quoted is because it’s considered witty to knock Limerick and say it’s full of scangers. It’s always interesting to consider hard facts (in this case from an authority like the CSO) which challenge common stereotypes about a place.

Anyway it’s not like there’s some raging Limerick v. Galway war going on here. Besides the point about the CSO figures and the debate about what should be included when comparing populations, BTH and myself and most of the others are expressing differring personal preferences about some Irish cities. No one’s preference is right or wrong and most expressions of opinion have been qualified with phrases like “I think” and “in my opinion” or “it feels to me”.

Ok there was so much wrong with that I’m not even going to start, but i will say this, i was actually supporting Limerick and its reputation on this one and you just went ahead and worked against it. maybe the reputation about Limerick and conflict is true – you’re certainly painting that picture…but in this case i’ll assume its just you and not the city. i’m all for differing opinions, thats democracy baby, but theres a fine line between stating opinion, correction and ridicule. I’m going to leave it at that. Its a pity some people act the way they do, but i would really like to see Limerick develop a good, progressive and POSITIVE thread about its development, of which it has many great ones like the Burke-kennedy doyle designed one on henry street is it??? anyway, enough banter. No hard feelings. 😮

well maybe just one more thing, Switzerlands GDP and GNP are both substantially higher than Bangledesh – see CIA world factbook website and papers by Conan, Andrews and Hemme (2003) – “A Modern Economic Perspective of World Economies”.

good luck with the page, cant wait to see some of the great projects in store for shannonside.

Less faffin, more pictures, i’m not seeing how it’s all coming along shannonside.
Limerick looks like a city, galway looks like a medium/small sized town drowning in suburbs, sorry, but thats how it is, regardless of wealth population yadda yadda.

jimg

spot on – Limerick is crippled from Limerick Co and Ennis refusing boundary extensions.

mob79

also right – Eyre Square is nice but it’s a town square not a city square, especially given the low rise surrounding it. Is there a byelaw that says you can’t build higher than the Cathedral, so as not to put the Novena in shadow?

(everytime I’m in Galway there seems to be a novena on).

‘Less faffin, more pictures, i’m not seeing how it’s all coming along shannonside.’….

this is work in progress on the quays- BKD i think.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=251401

Just to position myself backspace, is that Jurys to the right of that picture?

@dave123 wrote:

i the glass tower on riverpoint is really awesome! i think there knocking the awful yellow building onto the right as you look at the picture…

Or are they recladding it, i think the computer mock ups showed as being part of the scheme!

Is anything going planned alongside the Clarion, back in riverside towards the junkyard or whatever it is, can’t imagine to many customers in the clarion are overjoyed at that view.

@backspace wrote:

‘Less faffin, more pictures, i’m not seeing how it’s all coming along shannonside.’….

this is work in progress on the quays- BKD i think.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=251401

wahay pictures, thanks. Looking good.

Hmmm – so Galway is no longer your target – time to move onto Cork!

Maybe I’ll check back next week when Waterford is getting assasinated.

Limerick is an Irish city – it has it’s pro’s and it’s cons like everywhere else. It’s great that someone is defending it, but move on from the comparison type argument. It should stand up on it’s own merits. The Cork thread on this board is focused on what’s happening there alone and not how what happens there compares to elsewhere.

dave123

catch yourself on. If Limerick can include Shannon then Cork can certainly include Ringaskiddy and then it’s all over for you since Viagra is what keeps Ireland PLC ticking over.

Sorry for thread hijacking but: well what about the developments popping up in the shannonside ? 🙂

Maybe an obvious place to start (albeit post 52) but here are some links from Murray O laoire Architects Limerick office.

http://www.murrayolaoire.com/news_04/04_01_28/departure_for_limerick.html

http://www.murrayolaoire.com/news_04/04_01_28/maryi_sports.html

This sports building is the first part of an overall masterplan for Mary Immaculate College. It should go to site in summer. Its really quite an interesting looking building.

well i cant’t help my self either

The facts from the 2002 census back up EwanKennedy’s claim that Cork’s greater population is greater than Limerick and Galway combined is correct.

Main Towns
Total Population (including Suburbs or Environs)
Cork 186,239… this does not include Carrigaline, Midleton, Cobh, Passage West, Glanmire, Blarney, Tower (or any other of the satellite towns, although it does include Ballincollig);
Limerick 86,998 (Includes Castletroy, and the suburbs in Co. Clare);
Galway 66,163 (doesn’t include Oranmore)

Do your sums

now can you back up that limerick city is wealtheir that cork per capita fact?
how come property prices don’t back-up this apparent wealth?

BTW… Ringaskiddy and the Pharmachem region generate in excess of $8 billion per annum alone.

Now I’m off back to the thread that keeps me coming back to this forum 🙂

And now I feel really childish 🙂

That’s not what EwanKennedy claimed. He claimed Galway was bigger than Limerick which I don’t think is the case. He also claimed that Cork had a higher economic output than Limerick and Galway combined and thus Limerick couldn’t be wealthier than Cork. As I explained earlier, it’s not the overall economic output that determines wealth (try telling a Vietnamese that they’re wealthier than an Irish person) but output per head. And it is a matter of record (central statistics office) that COUNTY Limerick is wealthier than COUNTY Cork or COUNTY Galway. The CSO doesn’t publish income per head on a city basis, so that’s the closest we can get to an established “fact”.

let… it… go…

Can we change the name of this thread to “Is Limerick bigger and wealthier then Galway”, and then start a new one about development in Limerick?

Yes please! this is getting so old.

All I’d like to say now is “can we really trust a woman who leaves her feminine ointments next to the mayonaise in the fridge? That was the worst sandwich I ever ate!”

it seems as relevant as any other comment made here. could one of the webmasters maybe fix this???

anyone got a pic of the new Royal bank of scotland building?

Dave, are you 14 or what? Because your comments really do seem very immature…

He’s been drinking!

article from the LImerick Leader. Seems that Limerick city centre is suffering with the new suburban attractions such as cinemas and shopping centres. Surprised to read that there’s no cinema in the city cntre now! Is the city’s reputation mean that suburbanites and people from the hinterland consider the city centre unsafe and too much hassle to find parking etc?

Anyway here’s the article……………………………

City’s facelift gives us
reason to smile

LIMERICK’S skyline has changed dramatically over the past 10 years through renewal encouraged by tax incentives. CLODAGH O’LEARY looks at what this facelift has done to the city

Changing image: cranes dominate the Limerick skyline – Limerick Leader. Irish Newspaper for Limerick and the mid-west of Ireland
Changing image: cranes dominate the Limerick skyline

IN the past 10 years, Limerick has undergone a €1bn facelift. From the skyscraping developments to the greatly improved infrastructure, Limerick has become a truly modern city.

The provision of tax incentives has led to numerous developments on Limerick’s docklands, Howley’s Quay and Harvey’s Quay.

And currently, 10 per cent of the country’s construction output takes place in the Mid-West. In total, about €1.2bn has been spent in developing the city in the last 10 years.

Conor O’Connell, secretary of the Mid-West branch of the Construction Industry Federation said that Limerick had been transformed by the level of investment in the city.

“A huge amount of construction work has been done in the city over the past 10 years, more so than other regional cities, with huge investment by developers and business people,” he said.

“Of all cities in the country, Limerick has benefited most from tax incentives under Section 23 and Section 50,” said Mr O’Connell.

The deadline for the completion of projects under the current tax allowance system is July 2006.

Fionagh Ryan, chairwoman of the Limerick City Business Association said that in order for the city to thrive, investment and development must continue.

“A strong thriving regime would not be possible without new development. As a city we need all of those developments so that we can be on par with Cork and Galway.

“The city must differentiate itself. People have to have civic pride, and businesses will have to keep their premises up to speed. People in Limerick need to use the services in the city,” she said.

Pat Daly of Shannon Development said that Limerick city’s regeneration had become the example for how well the tax allowance scheme had worked.

“The tax incentives were piloted in Limerick in a project between Shannon Development and City Council. In fact, the first project in the country was in The Granary, where Shannon Development’s offices are based. A lot of those projects are based on this model,” he said.

Mr Daly said that the scale of investment had allowed for the city to embrace one of its strong points – the river.

“The level of investment has absolutely changed the streetscape in the city and has brought people back to the city,” he said.

But with the progress, there have been some losses.

The question of whether the city centre is in decline is one which has been hotly debated, particularly with the development of sites at the Parkway, Castletroy, the new Childer’s Road development, as well as the Crescent Shopping Centre.

“Everyone is aware that we need a buck-up in the city centre. We need the plans to be positive for the city. As it is, there is a lot going on here, we have everything from UL to theatre, the city is really changing,” said Ms Ryan.

But Limerick is the only city in Ireland without a cinema in its city centre. The Savoy closed its doors in 2004.

City movie-goers must travel to the Omniplex in Dooradoyle; Storm cinemas in Castletroy will open next weekend.

“We need to improve the cultural aspect more in the city centre, particularly a cinema, but we need developers to come in to the city for that,” she said.

But where will the city go from here?

“To a degree, I would like to see a little more of the same. I would like to see the plans of the Riverside City to complete development onto the Riverside. And the plans being talked about to pedestrianise certain streets in the city centre will bring people back into the city. These are two clear aspects of the city’s core plan for the future,” said Mr Daly.

“In another 10 years, I would like to see the city continuing in a positive light, that people originally from Limerick will want to return to the city like I did. I had been living in Dublin for seven years. The quality of life on this side of the country is much better. There are good reasons to return here,” said Ms Ryan.

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I dunno why Dunnes has a store there at all now that they’ve a big new store 100 yards away on Henry St. That shopping centre has been dead for years and is horrible. The sooner the wrecking ball flattens it the better. That site needs a dramatic (at least five stories) and beautiful building to mark that side of that “entrance” into Limerick.

Here is a old photograph of Sarsfield’s Bridge when it was new. If you don’t know Limerick the offending shoping center takes up the corner block on the left at the far end of the bridge.

Somebody would pipe up about it’s proximity to the castle i’m sure. Any other highrise planned bar the 2 existing?

I don’t think I’d like a very high building there. I think it would be better to have some symmetry in terms of height with the newish hotel or whatever it is across the road. This would provide two “pillars” flanking the start of the city at the end of the bridge and also would work better with the vista up William St (or is it Thomas St – I can never remember). Unfortunately the newish building across the road, while far better than the shopping centre, isn’t all that impressive being a bland and boring lowish red-brick if I recall correctly.

I forgot to say that Sarsfield’s Bridge is one of my favourites in the country. It’s length makes it more impressive than any in Dublin and the proportions and detailing are super.

I think Limerick looks nice. And just because a city may have a bad reputation, it doesn’t mean that a person can’t visit and admire it. Does anyone have pictures of the docklands in Limerick? Thanks in advance.

Im fairly new to this site but i’ve been reading it with interest for a good while and what struck me was the general lack of any news of all the potentially exciting developments that are planned for limerick,i suppose this isnt surprising considering some of the attitudes undoubtedly held by people on this site,unsurprisingly the majority of these people are probably from our “great” capital city. People seem to immediately dismiss any exciting plans for limerick,i see cork is benefiting from lots of coverage,fair play to lexington,obviously a man that cares passionately about his city,i think its about time limerick got in on the act,it really is coming along quite nicely,there are a large number of proposals on the table,ill just guide you through a few of them:

The riverfront is the area that has probably recieved the most attention over the last 10 years with developments such as steamboat quay,jurys inn,the harveys and howleys quay developments and more recently the riverpoint development which will finally rid us of the horrific munchins house,(apparently one of the 1st purpose built office blocks in the country in the 60s),I’ve added a few pics of the general docklands area,the shannon foynes port authority recently launched the docklands masterplan “The development will be phased over a number of years so that the capacity of the working Docks will not be impaired over the short to medium term at least. The Docklands Initiative is expected to include residential, commercial, hotel and other projects”,the overall capital value is around €1 Billion,the full text is here in pdf format, http://www.sfpc.ie/extracts.pdf

Just across the dock road the old limerick racecourse at greenpark is finally ready for development

Planning permission for the development of a mixed use scheme at the fromer Greenpark Racecourse. The proposed development will consist of a retail scheme with a total retail gross floor area of 30881 sq.m incorporation a supermarket (gross floor area 4800 sq.m), two anchor comparison units and a further 39 no. additional retail units. In addition, a food court of 3496 sq.m is proposed at first floor level comprising of 8 no. individual units and management area at second floor level. The application also includes parking at surface and semi-basement levels for 1862 vehicles including staff parking; ancillary site development works; hard and soft landscaping; access roads; service access; service yards and ancillary site works. The application also includes the provision of a major recreation amentity area incorporating playing pitches, (1 full size soccer pitch, 10 no. 5-a-side pitches and 4 no. tennis courts), changing facilities, a playground and landscaping

There are also plans for over a thousand new homes and a web of walkways etc,i think the old finishing straight of the racecourse is to be retained and there are also to be a memorial of the popes visit and a commemorative plaque for john traceys world championship win.

In the city centre the savoy cinema is finally about to be torn down and replaced with a 100 bed hotel,restaurants,leisure centre and 14 retail units fronting onto bedford row which is being pedestrianised within the next few weeks “for the redevelopment of a site of 0.3287 hectares, approximately, indentified primarily as: the Savoy Cinema Complex, Henry Street/Bedford Row; Bedford House, Bedford Row; Nos 2-7 Bedford Row: and the premises running from the rear of No.122 O’Connell Street (parallel with the rear of Nos. 1-9 Bedford Row), Limerick. The development will consist of the demolition of all existing structures on site and the construction of a five to part – ten (including roof top plant) storey over basement building, providing a mixed use scheme comprising: 95 no. residential apartments (some terraced, some with balconies) (7910 sqm (50 no. one-bedroom apartments; 37 no. two bed apartments; and 8 no. three-bed apartments)); 14 no. retail units (5753sqm located from basement to second floor level); and a 100 bedroom hotel,on the opposite side of bedford row the original savoy theatre is being restored to its former glory to house 3 retail units ,the royal george site is also undergoing redevelopment with a 4 star hotel and department store(probably marks & spencer) being built,the old jurys hotel on the ennis road is also being demolished next week to make way for a 12 storey development consisting of a 5 star hotel and 90 apartments,further out that road there are plans for 2 more hotels on the o meara motors site and near coonagh cross,uncertainty still surrounds the site of the ardhu hotel,construction seems to have stopped,patrick punchs pub at punches cross was also demolished lately to be replaced by a new hotel,hopefully the pub will reappear somewhere in the development.the clarion recently announced that as its enjoying 90% occupancy rates its going to convert the top 3 floors from apartments to bedrooms,work is also to start soon on a new hotel on the site of the top filling statio on the dock road,yet another hotel has started on the childers road beside the limerick enterprise park,strange place for a hotel if you ask me.

At the other side of town permission is expected shortly for the biggest shopping centre outside of dublin,on the lines of the dundrum centre and mahon point, to be known as parkway valley,iv seen the drawings and they look quite interesting,due to the topography of the site,it will consist of a number of differing elevations,i think around 60 units plus 10 screen cinema,leisure centre,office and business park and public park,looks like the parkway r/bout could become an even bigger problem,although sliproads to be tunnelled under the old N7 are to be constructed as part of the plan,a similar complex,although slightly smaller is planned for coonagh cross,this sounds like overkill to me,if you consider that a revamped jetland centre is scheduled to open in september across from the gaelic grounds with 35 retail units,proposed cinema,an 8 unit retail park and a motor park,added to existing parks such as the parkway retail park,childers,the new city east(the biggest yet) to open in august and two more in the pipeline for the same area,its all getting a bit ridicoulous,im not a fan of retail parks at all,the cresscent sc is also being extended at the moment,the city centre has to meet these challenges head on,limerick city council could help matters by putting arthurs quay park up for sale,what a disaster that has been,if dunnes stores and roches stores werent so stubborn,a great new city centre quarter could be created.

Just a few photos of the waterfront for those of you who wanted them,they were included in the 1st post but went missing for some reason

Tuborg – Thanks for posting the photos. I must say I like the Clarion. Limerick has a lot to offer, and can always learn from the mistakes made elsewhere when it comes to planning. Like any city in Ireland, the suburbs are pretty dull and monotonous, but the city center certainly has much to offer.

Not sure about a cinema dave,the savoy were running 2 screens in the old central across the street from the savoy,but thtats either closed or closing now because a developer has bought that site,its going to be converted into retail units,the facade is coming off,i think theres an earlier facade behind it,spposed to be fairly ornate and i think thats being restored,it is a shame that the city centre is without a cinema,i think galway dosent have a city centre cinema either,apparently theres one planned for the jetland on the ennis road,but thats not much good,if arthurs quay park is ever developed,probably into a large shopping centre,id like to see something done with the existing arthurs quay centre,they could have made a lot more out of such an important city centre site.As for the parkway, i think when parkway valley goes ahead,there is rumours that the original parkway sc will be torn down and replaced with either a bus or train terminal,i know colbert station isnt ideal,but i dont think iarnrod eireann would sanction such a move,we’ll probably be waiting for any improvements to the parkway r/bout aswell,i dont there is there is the ambition or foresight in this country to come up with a proper plan to grade separate this junction,look at the disappointing proposal they’ve come up with for the kinsale r/bout in cork!..

@Tuborg wrote:

Im fairly new to this site but i’ve been reading it with interest for a good while and what struck me was the general lack of any news of all the potentially exciting developments that are planned for limerick,……i think its about time limerick got in on the act

Thanks for that & the pictures. Even though I’m from Dublin, I’m interested in all the Irish cities and I’d certainly like to hear & see more about Limerick on this forum!

I think the problem with the parkway roundabout is the fact that it is a very tricky site with little or no scope for major improvements,as it is bordered on all sides by developments such as the parkway sc,the parkway retail park and numerous houses,its obvious that any worthwhile improvements would mean major upheaval in the area,surely some of the smaller buildings on the rebogue road side would have to be demolished,even if the unthinkable happened and a flyover was to be built,it would mean the realignment of at least half a kilometre of the dublin road to allow it to pass over the present junction and i just wonder how costly that would be.I dont think we’ll see the real benefit of the southern ring until the last section and the tunnel are built,if we’re lucky work will start late in the year,although early 2006 is a more realistic date.

just on another note i came across some old pictures of limerick lately and a very interesting building caught my eye,i think it was called cannocks,i know that this is where penneys is now,.Why was this building demolished?,does anyone have any ideas,what a shame that this building was lost,it seems a really beautiful building,am i right in thinking the building beside it is the present day roches stores?,Im fairly young so im only familiar with penneys current monstrosity,what a terrible shame this building isnt around now,it would really add to the city centres character,i also have an old photo of o connell street before todds fire,this was another fine building and when you see what they replaced it with it just makes it all the sadder!

i think this picture was taken in the 1940s

Wow – what an impressive collection of buildings, were they all demolished?

Sorry Dave, what building is this that you posted – it can get a bit difficult at times to associate all the buildings mentioned with the pics posted:

https://archiseek.com/content/attachment.php?attachmentid=786

This is the part of o connell street from the sarsfield street junction to the beginning of patrick street,it is hard to tell if the first building is roches stores,not sure how long roches have been in limerick but it certainly looks a similar building in that it is the same shape as the present building,anyone who has been inside will acknowledge that it is quite an old store,apparently a large part of it had to be renovated in the 60s to install lifts and escalators.One things is for sure :the railings on the rooftop have been removed and todays roches stores does not have as many windows,plus it is now painted cream,my guess is that it is the same building,as for the rest of them they have long since disappeared,the building sandwiched between roches and cannocks is gone and replaced with an exceptionally dull structure of roughly the same size that used to be an aer lingus travel shop and is now another part of roches stores,to thr right of cannocks is where burger king now stands and the building at the far end of the photo is where the entrance to arthurs quay sc now lies.

PS it has been said that cannocks was badly damaged in the civil war as it was the taken over by the local branch of irish volunteers!,does anyone know if this is true?

Beautiful picture of Cannocks, Tuborg. Where did you get it? I have a vague memory of Cannocks. It must have been knocked 20 or 25 years ago. It was a department store, I think, but my memory of it is very hazy. I think it was less “up-market” than the other nearby dempartment store, Todd’s (now BT), across the road. I don’t ever remember seeing the building to the right of Cannocks. I think that was a derelict/empty site for years. It’s also a great shame to be reminded of what was there before the Author’s Quay development. I remember that building too; I think it was occupied by a big jeweler. That whole stretch of Limerick has been destroyed in the last 30 years. Cannock’s is gone, most of the Georgians where Author’s Quay is were knocked as was Cruises Hotel.

Ya i mean the more you look at those buildings,the more angry you get,how could these buildings(especially the cannocks one) be allowed to be pulled down,it was an absolute disgrace,i think that in cannocks case it was decided that it would be cheaper to demolish it and build a new one in its place than to restore the original,how tragic when you consider the heap of s**t that was built in its place.I have a few more photos aswell(found em on some site couple of years ago,cant remember which one!).Another fine building to be lost was the old todds store,it was destroyed by a huge fire in 1959,apparently a huge section of o connell street and william street were at risk before it was finally brought under control,now we know why this section of o connell and wiliam street is so shabby,horrible 60s architecture,roches stores was also destroyed by a fire in 1948.Its such a pity that so much of o connell street was lost,imagine if all those buildings were still intact now!,how good would this part of the city centre look today!,o connell street has really gone down the pan in recent years and the city council seem to be taking for ages to do anything about it,brown thomas should at least be made do something with the front of their building,its unbelievably ugly.Hopefully the new department store on the george site will have some character.

I’ve included another pic of o connell street,again not sure about the date,the quality isnt great but then again it is at least 50 years old,the second is an old postcard,it gives a good idea of what todds looked like!.

I dunno dave,isnt newtown house the one behind the riverpoint building?

Nothing too interesting there, dave123, except the varying degrees of uglyness.

All of those developments are particularly devoid of design quality which is a pity as Limerick more so than most places has the potential to be a fantastic urban space, virtually no other City I know has such a logical street pattern.

That’s a bit better. Any more details on the Barrington’s development? I know where the Tait’s building is, where are the other two?

Barrington House is very well done, do you know who were the design team?

I’m sure DTZ will have no trouble securing a tenant that edge of the Island is very central and its setting is of a very high standard between the river and the former Hospital that closed in 1987. It was a tough brief to design around but from the picture shown the designers got it spot on.

@dave123 wrote:

a few more , i like barringtons hse because its an original building

Where in Limerick in the project with the photo title ‘strange building’?

the ‘strange building’ is a block or two behind the old barringtons Hospital and facing onto the road that comes off the newish bridge beside Baals bridge.
Haven t seen it in the flesh recently but i think it’s a mixum-gatherum apartment -office -shop stack em high sell em low affair with incredible hulk of parking peering out from behind. have no idea what the steel prow is all about

Maybe they forgot to finish it.

Barrington House looks rather good all right from that picture, as well as fitting into its context well.
Any chance of enlarging your pics a bit Dave if possible? – bit tricky seeing the detail of the projects.
Thanks for posting though.

Its true a lot of new developments popping up in limerick(and indeed countrywide) lack a bit of ambition,its a real pity,most of the new structures tend to be quite boring,some try to use striking colours to distract from their banality,-never really works,unfortunately we’re also seeing the use of cheaper materials become more and more common.I’ve been pleasantly surprised though by the riverpoint building i must say,its turned out better than i imagined,the reflective glass facade makes it look quite imposing,according to the limerick leader it will be completed in the next month and get this all but one of the floors have been bought up,i felt it would be a huge gamble, but its obviously paid off,i wonder how many chose to relocate because of its landmark status.Anyway 1 thing we can say for sure is that limerick is almost unrecognisable from the city that was basically falling apart in the mid to late eighties!, theres actually a funny story of a planner from bilbao who was advising the city council on redevelopment plans in the early eighties, he commented that limerick seemed to have suffered a lot of damage during the war!..

From the Limerick Leader 11 june 2005

Ugliest building in city is to be demolished
By BARRY DUGGAN

WHAT is regarded by many as the ugliest building in the city is just weeks away from being demolished.

Munchins’ House located at Bishop’s Quay is to be completely levelled by developer Michael Daly as the city continues its multi-million euro transformation along the riverfront.

The Department of Agriculture are moving out of the building.

Mr Daly, Managing Director of Fordmount Properties is behind a €200m development at a number of city centre sites.

He has plans to build 95 apartments, a 100-bed hotel and 14 shop units over four floors at the three-quarter-acre site of the old Savoy cinema.

The total height of the planned Henry Street development is up to 10 storeys, with a number of individual units having their shopping area spread out on four levels from basement to second floor.

The Savoy cinema at Henry Street/Bedford Row had a 70-year entertainment history in Limerick. It was capable of seating almost 1,500 patrons for live concerts and movies.

The former CBS student is also behind the €75m RiverPoint building project on Bishop’s Quay.

The focal city building which is gaining enthusiastic reviews will be home to a bar, restaurant, fitness centre, residential units, a 250 space underground carpark along with 13 floors of offices.

“All but one floor of offices has been taken up. Most of the offices are taken up by people who have offices in the city at the moment. There are over 100 apartments in the building also. When completed, there will be an estimated 1,000 in the building with around 400 people working there. It will help to transform the whole area,” commented Mr Daly.

Mr Daly has also bought the €15-million-plus Castletroy Park Hotel with development potential on its lands.

Munchins house is that horrific concrete and plastic structure that has “welcomed” visitors to the city over the shannon bridge for far too long(think since the late 60s), thankfully its going to be demolished in august,i was getting worried they were going to reclad it!, first it was meant to go in 2003 then 2004 but now its finally goin to bite the dust!

I’ve also enclosed a few pics of the savoy cinema thats going to be demolished shortly to make way for a new hotel and retail development,i think everyone will agree it’ll be no loss!, the only interesting part of the site is the former bedford row maternity hospital that was used as an office supplies store for the last 10 years or so

Munchins house actually looks worse in them photos than id ever imagined,never gave it a second glance usually because of its sheer ugliness,i think this is a classic example of how not to build an office block, kinda looks like the kgb headquarters,it has that kind of look to it!. Judging by the digital image of riverpoint it looks like the second phase of riverpoint which replaces munchins house will be around 14 storeys(this will be the apartment block),its slightly taller than munchins. The whole project includes 25,000 sq ft of office space,100 apartments, 8,000 sq ft of retail,restaurants and bars facing the river, a leisure centre and 225 underground car parking spaces. As for the savoy ,i saw a plan of it in the local press,its going to be quite a tall structure,parts of it are twice the size of the present savoy complex,the hotel will be facing onto henry street and the majority of the retail units will be facing onto bedford row,these retail units will be fairly exclusive offering space over 4 floors,obviously aiming at the higher end of the market, i’ll try and find some photos of the plans as well as the plans for the former jurys site on the ennis road. I suppose the part of henry street that is looking a bit left out is the esb site,maybe we’ll see some action there soon enough, there are big plans for the top end of the street aswell,the area at the back of the old council offices is due for redevelopment very soon,i’ll try and dig out the plans for that also.

How old is the Savoy Tuborg? 7 years? 10 years? Unfortunate to see such a comparitively new building being torn down – on a number of levels.

Agreed about Munchins House though – what a ghastly building, esp as seen in that second image. The only good thing about it is the name 🙂
Should be preserved for the new development.

The Savoy as it now stands was rebuilt around 89/90 I think. It’s a real pity not to have a cinema in the city centre I think from a cultural point of view.

A lot of the action in Limerick now seems to be in the Castletroy or Dooradoyle/Raheen suburbs. All suburban sprawl. Limerick Count Council have their HQ in Dooradoyle, good building too from what I hear, but I’m sure it’s in their interest to promote the suburbs that are in their jurisdiction at the expense of the city. The Cirty are always looking for an extention to its boundary but I think their should be one authority covering Limerick city and county and probably Clare aswell. A mis west authority if you like,

The commercial rates in Limerick are apparently very high. The rates outside the small city boundary presumably are much much lower. A perfectly tuned situation to reward suburbanisation at the expense of city development.

Most of the recent development in the city has been apartments, office space and hotels – very little of it is retail. Until the city boundary expands, most retail development will happen in the suburbs. This is a pity because the low quality of the retail experience in the city is damaging and creates a vicious cycle; less and less retail businesses set up in the city so the council is forced to increase rates which further exacerbates the problem.

As to the Savoy, while it’s a terrible waste to see a relatively large development pulled down after just 10 years or whatever it is, its replacement will hopefully provide something better than a blank wall facing Henry Street. This really killed Henry Street in terms of attracting footfall. It should be a prime city street given it’s location and size.

I wouldnt be too sympathetic towards the savoy, to be honest even though it was basically rebuilt in the late 80s it was never really finished to a high standard, to be honest i always hated it with its dull facade and horrible roof,the blank wall facing on to henry street just topped it off. Hopefully demolition will start in the next few weeks cos i think its replacement could be quite exciting. Meanwhile I’ve found a map of the boundary proposal and i think its pretty reasonable, the present situation is a pure joke, limerick city and its suburbs has a total population of around 100 or 110,000 yet only 52,000 live inside the city bounds!, castletroy has a population of 25,000 with a similar number living in raheen/dooradoyle and its plain to see how much development has taken place there in the last 10 years, a huge complex is to be built in castletroy, a similar one at coonagh cross and at the moment the crescent are extending again, this will bring its size up to around 100 units. All of this is bleeding the city dry, o connell st needs a serious revamp to bring it back to the prosperous street it was 40,50 years ago, it looks better in them old photos i posted than it does now!, there are a lot of trashy shop on the street at the moment, magic shops,tacky cheap shops and fast food outlets, a proper strategy needs to be put in place now. William street is also in need of attention, it has serious potential, we should get rid of the bus stops on the street and also the trailer trash that always seem to hang around outside the sports shops. Also I think it would help enormously if arthurs quay park was sold off for development, at the moment it is underused and only a loitering area for scumbags, it would certainly add a nice new quarter to the city centre.

I’ll try and find out some more about the docklands, as far as i know the plans are fairly wide ranging,shops,apartments,museum(s),financial services centre etc.

ps I think the actual map is a bit old but the proposed extension is correct

@Tuborg wrote:

I wouldnt be too sympathetic towards the savoy, to be honest even though it was basically rebuilt in the late 80s it was never really finished to a high standard, to be honest i always hated it with its dull facade and horrible roof,the blank wall facing on to henry street just topped it off. Hopefully demolition will start in the next few weeks cos i think its replacement could be quite exciting. Meanwhile I’ve found a map of the boundary proposal and i think its pretty reasonable, the present situation is a pure joke, limerick city and its suburbs has a total population of around 100 or 110,000 yet only 52,000 live inside the city bounds!, castletroy has a population of 25,000 with a similar number living in raheen/dooradoyle and its plain to see how much development has taken place there in the last 10 years, a huge complex is to be built in castletroy, a similar one at coonagh cross and at the moment the crescent are extending again, this will bring its size up to around 100 units. All of this is bleeding the city dry, o connell st needs a serious revamp to bring it back to the prosperous street it was 40,50 years ago, it looks better in them old photos i posted than it does now!, there are a lot of trashy shop on the street at the moment, magic shops,tacky cheap shops and fast food outlets, a proper strategy needs to be put in place now. William street is also in need of attention, it has serious potential, we should get rid of the bus stops on the street and also the trailer trash that always seem to hang around outside the sports shops. Also I think it would help enormously if arthurs quay park was sold off for development, at the moment it is underused and only a loitering area for scumbags, it would certainly add a nice new quarter to the city centre.

I’ll try and find out some more about the docklands, as far as i know the plans are fairly wide ranging,shops,apartments,museum(s),financial services centre etc.

ps I think the actual map is a bit old but the proposed extension is correct

That park has never worked. Big mistake planting those trees and screening off views of the Shannon. Still people never like to lose parks so might be difficult.

That new building near Tait’s clock, what’s the verdict? Haven’t seen it myself not too sure about it though. I was in Limerick recently and I noticed the corner beside the Lock bar is derilict. This seems a great pity such a prominent corner in an are that has been improved. I think the Bar seems to be using it for storage. Also notice that there’s big bottle back just outside St, Mary’s Cathedral. I’m all for recycling but this is crazy.

That park has never worked.

Yeah it’s been an absolute failure. It’s hard to say this about a park I’d rather see it built over. This is especially weird for me because the design of the park, from what I recall, isn’t too bad and the tourist center is an interesting building. Unfortunately it’s location means it was always cut off from the city; it is bounded by the river and a three lane street/road and there is nothing to attract footfall anywhere near it. Even the buildings across the road from it are effectively dead; you have a multistory car park and the back of the run-down Dunnes shopping centre (discussed earlier).

If it were to be built over, it would represent a great opportunity to create a new quarter in the city centre. You could have Bars/resteraunts/cafes and shops opening onto the quayside path/walk that’s there. The risk is that very little proper thinking would go into its redevelopment and Limerick would end up with more lowish-grade apartment blocks like many of those around the docks area.

By the way dave123, where are you getting the pictures you post? Most of them are frustratingly tiny and it’s impossible to get any sort of an impression of the buildings they contain.

Ah dave please say they’re taking the piss with the royal george site, remember this is O CONNELL STREET, the city’s main thoroughfare and this is the best they can do, i feel sick looking at it. It basically looks like a mediocre apartment block, or a modern version of the penneys and brown thomas disasters, is there no limit to our desire to destroy this city! What is going on in the city council?, how could they approve a building like this, i was hoping for a classical design,perhaps something georgian to fit the character of the city centre(or whats left of it). This is another of aidan brooks developments, i mean fair play for having the courage and ambition to develop these sites but the architecture on many of his projects has been questionable to say the least!, i think it leaves a lot to be desired!…

That is a very small image could you post a bigger one dave?

This is the application for the area in upper henry street behind the old council offices,this site is crrently occupied by some fairly decrepid buildings and one or 2 have been derelict for around 15 years!, one of these buildings contains the hiv/aids mural,(i think it was a take off of the us army recruitment posters,with uncle sam pointing his finger) that used to freak me out when i was younger!

Demolition of sheds and structures at 23 Henry St.; Demolition of 24 Henry St. and the sheds and extensions to the rear; Demolition of the sheds and structures to the rear of 76-78 O’Connell St.; Demolition of a boundary wall and two toilet and stair returns to the rear of 79-83 O’Connell St. Construction of a pedestrian access and ancillary maintenance works to the archway at Hartstonge St. Excavation and construction of a basement car park on the site, to include the widening of Savins Lane and the provision of a through road from Savins Lane to Hartstonge St. via the Archway, Hartstonge St., a Protected Structure. Construction of a single six storey building fronting 23/24 Henry St. with 44 apartments (2 one bedroom and 42 two bedroom), ground floor and basement retail and ground floor office use. Construction of a single six storey building to the rear of 76-83 O’Connell St., with 74 apartments (6 one bedroom & 66 two bedroom & 2 three

And this is for the site immediately next door,

for the demolition of the existing buildings, out-buildings and structures at the above addresses, the construction of a basement car park including a retail storage area and the construction of a sixth storey building over to include four retail shops at ground level including all associated ancillary accommodation, first floor suite with 24 apartments over including all associated site works and site development works. This proposal is located in an architectural conservation area and no. 24, 25 and 26 Henry St. are Protected Structures.

Thankfully roches stores havent got permission to retain the liddy streets buildings for storage,if the city council were any good theyd totally reject it and tell roches they’re in breach of the city centre development plan although then again who would have any confidence in them hopeless shower!..

Wow, you know i gotta say im impressed with all this development in Limerick of late, and especially some of the proposals im seeing, alot of the earlier development (late 90’s) didn’t do much for me, but definitely alot of thought and effort going into sprucing up the city in general now, not just the waterfront. Keep it up!

I’m not really sure about the boundary extension,very hard to call it either way,it was decided at the last city council meeting that they would go ahead with the application and present a formal request to the environment minister Of course this will probably gather dust for a few years as we enter into “detailed study” after “detailed study” and then reports, clare and limerick county councils are dead against it and they will carry some significant weight, i dont think limerick co co have a leg to stand on,they are hindering the development of the city with their small minded attitudes, their two biggest earners the raheen business park and the national technological park are in the city and their success is down to the fact that theyre located in the city,they wouldnt work out in the middle of west limerick would they!, its the councils own fault they havent provided an equal spread of industry and employment throughout their jurisdiction. I really hope it goes through but judging by the way in which this government has treated limerick, i wouldnt count on it. By the way where is willie o dea on this issue?, never heard him say a word!..

From the local press

Two councils refuse boundary extension

By Marie Hobbins
JUST one week before Mayor Michael Hourigan comes to the end of his mayoralty his concerted efforts to engage the neighbouring local authorities of Limerick and Clare County Councils in positive support for an extension to the city’s boundary has received a complete thumbs down from both parties.

At the end of last year detailed reports on the issue, carried out in accordance with the Local Government Act were submitted by Limerick City Council to its neighbouring councils but the response in both cases has been a resounding rejection to the case put forward for an extension.

The Council will now put their submission before the Environment Minister, Dick Roche.

According to the results of a survey of 500 people living in the area which the proposed extension would take in, 10 per cent said they did not know who administers the area in which they live, 60 per cent said they would prefer one administration, compared to three as at present and 40 per cent would prefer three.

The survey was carried out by the MRBI.

It further revealed that under Limerick City Council, 21 per cent of people felt things would be better, 60 per cent felt things would stay the same and 19 per cent felt things would be worse.

It is now anticipated that a boundary commission will be established to investigate the issue and sticking to his contention that “a strong core drives a region,” Mayor Hourigan said it is imperative in the interest of both the city and region that the Minister makes a positive decision on the proposal which was first mooted in 1974.

“The boundary has not budged since 1950 and from the replies of the opposing councils it appears that they are happy for time to stand still but a recent survey shows that in the proposed area some 60 per cent would prefer a single authority to run the city.”

Stressing that failure to resolve the boundary issue is impeding the city’s development and the entire region, the mayor said the Council has put forward a compelling argument for change.

“It’s clear that having three local authorities responsible for a city of Limerick’s size is not the most efficient and effective way to position it as the driver of growth for the Mid West and the partition of the city into three is now the greatest stumbling block to economic growth.”

There was overall support from the councillors that despite the negative response from Limerick and Clare the issue should be driven forward with Cllr John Ryan aptly reminding the members that in 1991 the then mayor, Jim Kemmy said that nobody can put a halt to the march of a city.

“Our neighbours are not living up to their responsibilities in urban areas and the head -in-the-sand attitude by refusing to consult on the issue is not working,” he added

Its interesting to note that despite all the talk about the docklands redevelopment it seems to be very much full steam ahead for the park canal restoration,i thought this would be put on the back burner for a while but listening to an interview with the new mayor, a new masterplan has been published for the area between lock quay and the university of limerick,and about time too, this area has huge potential,the area immediately south of lock quay is a fairly prominent and visible area as one travels on the old dublin road. It is in serious need of redevelopment especially as many new buildings(such as the barringtons development) sprung up in recent years,this area rather undermines these improvements

EXTRACTS FROM PRESS RELEASE

The Park Canal was constructed in 1757-1758 to transport goods to and from Limerick City. The canal system was invaluable in the transport of heavy goods, such as turf, potatoes, coal and, in particular, Guinness. But by 1929, with modernisation of transport and the building of the electricity generation station at Ardnacrusha, the canal had become obsolete and fell into dilapidation.
The majority of structures and buildings along the canal are located between Lock Quay and Park Bridge. To the north side of Lock Quay there are two derelict buildings in a prominent location with potential for renovation to compatible uses. The lock gates were replaced recently as part of the Limerick Main Drainage Project. A terrace of partly-dilapidated buildings to the south bank of the canal have potential for redevelopment. Further east the old Guinness warehouses are derelict and subject to a demolition order.

Generally it is proposed that improvement works are concentrated at the two main focal points of Lock Quay and Park Bridge, and along the southern bank of the canal. It is envisaged that the northern bank would retain its informal character, and with the addition of fishing platforms, while the southern bank would accommodate a continuous cycleway, improved surfaces, lighting and street furniture. The first phase of the Canal Restoration Project will allow its banks to be opened up for leisure and amenity purposes, while providing the catalyst for a variety of potential canalside development projects, such as a sports museum, craft shops, some residential, cafes and parks. Other initiatives should include the introduction of facilities for watercraft, and the creation of canal bank walks and cycling paths.

Phase 2 of the project would include:

Renovation of the two buildings to the north side of Lock Quay (e.g. for refreshment and/or interpretation uses);
Redevelopment of the terraced buildings to the south side of the canal by Lock Quay;
Redevelopment of the Guinness Building;
Redevelopment of land on south side of canal between the proposed Corbally Link Road and Park Road;
Possible provision of public car park to southwest of Park Bridge to serve canal users;
Possible redevelopment of land to the south of Canal Bank, between Park Road and Plassey Walk;
Creation of a canal basin between Park Bridge and the railway bridge providing berthing and related facilities

i’ve found some good detailed plans of the area but they’re too big to be posted as this site has a 290kb limit or something 😡

I found the plans on the council web site here . It’s a very impressive civic project and I like the fact that they plan to leave “the informal nature” of the north bank as is. It’s strange ‘though that the derelict buildings, at the city end, are only earmarked for “future restoration”. I don’t know these buildings, anyone know what state they’re in?

@dave123 wrote:

this is one of the nicst red brick buildings i have seen in a long time !
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[/align:3vpluyeb]

Ya think? Can’t say i like it, more of the same bland, boxy, small-windowed fare i reckon. Maybe to see it in person might do it more justice. My favourite red brick building of recent times is on Camden Quay in Cork, though it is a pity they didn’t colour co-ordinate it with the rest of the buildings on Camden Place, it’s a different shade and hence doesn’t fit into the surrounds as much as it might.
Where is the building you posted?

Childers road is one of the biggest failures ever!, it has never done anything near the job it was supposed to,but of course it is too close to the city centre to act as a ring road. It definately needs to be widened,at least between the parkway and tipperary r/bouts, the railway bridge in roxborough is a problem and i dont think iarnrod eireann are that accomodating in these situations,there is plenty of room to widen the road along much of its length, it was a disaster that the road was never extended to the dock road,there is still talks of it now but i dont see where it can be fitted in, all routes are basically blocked by development. I think to be fair to the ring road we wont really see the real benefits until the second phase to the N18 is completed , its a disgrace that the whole project wasnt completed in 1 go,of course we shouldnt really be surprised, we dont exactly get our fair share down here do we1!. Must say if its true that H&M are coming to the cresent its only more bad news for the city centre, i think zara are moving in aswell. i think it just shows that a lot of the retail accomodation is just too small,thats why river island and next are moving to purpose built units,after this next will have 3 outlets in limerick, i think hmv are talking about opening out there aswell,their store in o connell/cruises street is a bit cramped,next are also looking for a bigger store in the city centre,most likely in the new bedford row development, (actually i see they’ve started stripping the old savoy, must be coming down fairly soon),also oasis are moving from cruises street to the brown thomas store again because its bigger, i think they were outbid for cruises cafes(formerly bewleys) by new look.

Also the new cathaoirleach of Limerick co co bridgid teefy is totally against the boundary extension, oh dear!

SELL ARTHURS QUAY PARK NOW!…

@dave123 wrote:

this is one of the nicst red brick buildings i have seen in a long time !
[align=center:3db1n4u2]
[/align:3db1n4u2]

I think the ground floor lets buildings like this down so often, it’s so unbelievably bland and uninteresting, our streets will all be so monotonous. I do like recessed balconies though as opposed to cages stuck on to a sliding door.

I think this is one of the more ridiculous applications to come before the council, castletroy shopping centre has been a major flop since it opened 4 years ago, it still has a good few vacant units and i’ve been in there loads of times as i live only a short walk away when im in college and the place is always unbelievably quiet, if it wasnt for superquinn it would have closed by now!, i suppose they’re banking on the cinema to bring in the crowds. Its obvious that developers are more willing to take a chance in the suburbs than the city centre, again because the rates are much too high and we all know who’s fault this is!, if this goes ahead it will mean 3 shopping centres around the city being extended and at least 2 more major ones in the pipeline, i think we really need to fastrack some of the city centre proposals, bedford row redevelopment, city centre pedestrianisation etc.

As there are so many premises up for sale/lease in william street it means an excellent opportunity to give the street back its status as one of the best shopping streets in town as it was always considered in the past, quality retailers should be sought, no point replacing crap with even more crap!..

Usually I keep up to date-ish on these things, but any word from Shannonside about teh IRFU’s redevelopment of Thomond Park? (The venue not the contributor! :p )

With regard to the guinness building, i think the one they are referring to here is the old guinness depot on the roxboro road,not far from the train station, this has been basically abandoned for the last couple of years and the whole site is in fairly poor shape, the cie works are located close by and there has been a lot of wrangling over proposed uses for these sites, i think its going to rumble on for quite some time yet!. These are two large and strategically very important sites with huge potential, they are suitable for a large number of uses and hopefully wont be bought up for another boring “exclusive” apartment complex, this area is in need of some serious rejuvenation and a proper plan needs to be drawn up. The guinness site was mooted as a proposed location for a new train station as all the mainline tracks run through its grounds but its all gone fairly quiet on this front lately, i’ll keep an eye on it over the coming months.

As for thomond park, a revamp here is long overdue, the place is a bit of a kip,especially in comparison to the gaelic grounds which really puts it in the shade, i think the plan at the moment is to build 2 new stands at either side of the pitch and leave 2 uncovered terraces behind the goals, i was hoping they would go the whole hog and cover the entire ground but leave standing space at each end of the pitch, this is the way most stadiums on the continent are now built.

Its good to see that the irfu are commited to developing thomond park and keeping munsters home games where they rightfully belong. A proper stadium with corporate facilities would be a huge boost for the city! all we need now is for the mackey stand to be replaced and we would have 2 stadiums for everyone to be envious of!..

Dave – when you open the image fully, right click it and go to Properties and copy that address. That way you are using the address of the large image rather than the small one.

A bit OT, but as you’ve a keen interest in road development you might be interested in the following forum, Dave.

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk

It seems to cater for both British and Irish roads.

With regard to the development of shopping centres, I am heavily against them. Everyting about the architecture of shopping centres creates negative psycho-social feelings. Crescent (and Casteltroy) shopping centre should be bulldozed en masse and redeveloped beyond the south court hotel as a ready-designed “town” ala terenure in Dublin, only with some pedestrian streets, and a light rail system serving it. A light rail hub should be based on the shopping centre site, building on the existing rail line, with links to Ennis, Raheen, and Colbert Station.

@modular man wrote:

I agree that limerick has some very high quality streetscapes, especially the Georgian areas however my impression (irish person, not from Limerick) is that it lacks any quality public spaces (the streetscapes aside). I never feel like there is a central point. Aurthers quay park is vastly underused addition which feels too tucked away from O’ Connel street behind a Dunnes stores which has seen better days.
I think that a lot people from outside Limerick only know it as they used to have to pass through on the way to Clare or kerry and have the impression of a one street town. Limerick has a lot of potential and there has been enormous improvements over the past fifteen years. I hope this trend continues.
I also think that the by-pass from the Castletroy side is one of the most important projects for the city and years overdue. I presume it has opened as live abroad so have not visited in a couple of years. Has it made a big difference?
It would be good if This thread could be kept updated in the same fashion as the ‘look at the state of Cork’ thread.

I am so glad the point (and this discussion at large) has come to pass. I have for a long time wished I had the insight to bring intuition if my 16 yr old mind to the planning table when Arthurs key Shopping centre was being built. It failed for a number of reasons. 1. It was so over hyped that everyone was very excited about it, so it’s flaws were initially accepted. 2. It was conceived very obviously by someone, perhaps not from limerick, or who had never been to places like paris, rome, copenhagen etc, where the use of space in cities is the very thing that makes them not just attractive to look at, but also places that are nice to be in. Arthurs Quay should have been built, but on the waterfront, where the (junky filled) park now is. The park is a hiding place, but could so easily have swapped position with the shopping centre, making it a wide cobbled centre piece to a city that would evolve promisingly thereafter. Imagine if limerick had a square/open space as its centre: It would be sheltered from the river, and even the shopping center on the river’s edge could have had it’s awful restuarants/cafes on the river front, overlooking the marina and some of the best views in Limerick.

I think the people who failed in their capacity at this level owe the people who are proud of Limerick a debt.

@dave123 wrote:

Turborg, remember you mentioned the Guiness site earlier as part of the canal restoration projest well, i just found some more info about
it

it will be a very intersting site for new devlopment
anyone know the sites wherabouts??

No move on Guinness site until the Autumn

A CITY councillor’s perseverance will have to last until after the summer recess before he is any further enlightened as to what is being planned for the city site formerly occupied by Guinness.

Cllr Joe Leddin has been seeking information for over a year now as to what, if any definite plans are in the pipeline for development on the valuable city-centre site which is owned by Limerick City Council.

“I can’t get an answer as to what is happening on this site. I’ve repeatedly asked because I’m repeatedly asked by people living near it what, if any plans are in progress for the site and why it has remained idle for so long.”

Cllr Leddin pointed out that the former city manager, Brendan Keating agreed to the demolition of the old Guinness building after it had fallen into dereliction.

The councillor was told by Limerick city manager, Tom Mackey that plans for the site hinge on other possible developments that may occur in the surrounding area.

“I ask the indulgence of the Council until after the summer recess when I will come back to this,” he told Cllr Leddin.

also ,
THE decision by Limerick City Council to grant planning permission for a retail park development at the rear of Ashbrook Estate has shocked residents who are currently appealing the planning application to An Bord Pleanala.

The space created by the derelict land close to the canal should be used to build a light rail line from the university to the city centre before any more meritless developments are built on these lands.

@dave123 wrote:

Would anyone agree that the roundabouts in Limerick are treacherous???
the main N20 Dual carrigway to Cork and Kerry has a deadly right angle section of road that really is a planning disaster.
who ever design it , should be kicked out of the country!!!!
most dual carrigways are generally a straight strech of road and does not end in a an interection with a dealdy roundabout with other access roads off it.
Tourists find it very confusing!!!
Today I was heading back from the cresent SC and A tourist in front of me was indicating to stay on the ringroad towards Dublin and thought been on it you would n’t have turn right off the roundabout, instead nearl rammed into our car!!!
Its a very stupid juntion….

I presume the said round about will someday aim to continue on to the river to cross the shannon to the airport – or am I mistaken?

Has the guinnesss building been mooted as a rail link to castletroy? i.e. light rail sort of thing? I think a light rail system would do the most to give limerick the jump on the rest of ireland’s planless cities and shove it up the &rses of its many detractors.

I think the Luas is expected to cost about 800 million euros. Fair enough. We don’t begrudge the expenditure of public funds to provide the people of Dublin with this fine public transport facility. Now, compared to Dublin, Limerick is just a tiddler with maybe 10% of the population, so perhaps we could look forward to tiddler-sized public funding of 80 million euros to build a light rail system here? How many chances, do you reckon? Two?

Just a few updates on developments!..

Demolition work started on the savoy complex last week,work is initially concentrated on the henry street side,a number of shop units and the old bedford row maternity hospital will be demolished very soon,the new development of a hotel and 14 shop units looks pretty exciting and will give the area a new lease of life, a facelift for the old central theatre across the street is due to start very shortly, the building is to be stripped and the old methodist chapel on the site is to be restored.This street is to be pedestrianised and work is due to start in the next few weeks, finally the city centre plan is gathering pace!. Meanwhile the two infill buildings on o connell street that have baffled people for years are no more, the 2 storey buildings that looked so out of proportion are gone and are being replaced with 2 four storey ovr basement georgian style buildings to fit the character of the area, allegedly the reason for the gap in the street was for the horse drawn coaches to access the rear of the buildings!,There are also rumours that a number of tenants on patrick street are in negotiations with a developer with a view to purchasing their premises, it is thought that a large retail group has major plans for the area!

Limerick Leader 23rd july 2005

LIMERICK’S skyline has undergone a dramatic transformation with the construction of the towering 58 metre Riverpoint development in the city centre.

The imposing edifice on Bishop’s Quay, set to become a new landmark for the city, forms a spectacular new entrance to Limerick for visitors.

The high-rise 15 storey building, covered in hi-tech futuristic glass, has overtaken the Clarion as the highest building in the city.

Reaction to the new €75 building has been mixed. Some see Riverpoint as an impressive signature tower for the city skyline, and one that fits in with Limerick’s desired image of a Riverside City. While others aren’t so sure about the design. Is the building simply too high, too flashy and a tad over-the-top for Limerick?

Installing the glass facade, which interestingly reflects the ever-changing colours of the nearby river and sky above, was a major engineering project for Sisk, the appointed builders. In fact the challenge of fitting glass at such a height caused the works to fall three months behind schedule.

The reinforced glass, which was very costly, was specially imported from Austria – a similar type was used on a television tower in Luxembourg.

Extra strong foundations have also been installed at the base to protect it from the danger of flooding.

Riverpoint, containing 13 floors of offices and 125 apartments, is scheduled to open this September. It will also incorporate a bar and restaurant facing the river, a cr

Limerick Leader 23rd july 2005

Red tape holds up suburbs takeover

BECAUSE of red tape the Minister for the Environment, Dick Roche will not receive a proposal to enlarge the Limerick city boundary until mid Autumn – a year after the report was made public.

The Department of the Environment confirmed this Thursday that he has yet to receive a submission and senior City Hall officials have acknowledged that it will be “September or October” before the proposal – affecting several suburbs – is sent to Dublin.

Both Limerick and Clare County Councils’ have rejected the plan to quadruple the area governed from City Hall, enlarging the city’s boundary into their areas by 6,451 hectares.

Last October, the report commissioned by then Mayor, Cllr Michael Hourigan, requesting the Government to enlarge the city was made public.

However, despite the controversial report being well publicised and debated, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has not yet received it.

City manager, Tom Mackey confirmed that the proposal would have to go before the City Council again following its rejection by the neighbouring authorities.

The City Council are not due to meet again until September.

“It will have to be brought before the council for their direction in September or October. It will then be sent directly to the Minister if the Council approves it,” reported Mr Mackey.

If the bid is successful, areas such as Coonagh, Dooradoyle, Castletroy and Mungret in County Limerick and Parteen, Meelick and Clonlara in Clare would be administered by the City Council. Officials argue an extension is long overdue, the last one being granted in 1950.

The proposal document for the extension runs to over 155 pages including appendices.

Meanwhile two Limerick Government colleagues have differed over the future of Limerick’s local authorities.

Junior Health Minister Tim O’Malley has suggested that Limerick City and County Councils’ should be amalgamated into a “single super-authority to govern and promote both city and county”.

Minister for Defence Willie O’Dea believes this idea “would not work”.

“I don’t think any one body would be able to manage this. I would be in favour of the present situation,” said Minister O’Dea.

Asked would he favour a boundary extension for the city, the Defence Minister also said he had “representations on both sides.”

“There are arguments for and against it and it is a decision for Minister Roche to make. He has not given me any indication on how it will go,” remarked Minister O’Dea.

Just to clarify that the two single storey buildings on O’Connell Street were supposed to be retained as part of the overall infill with a contemporary twist to the upper floors. However – they were not able to be retained once the construction began on site…

Where on the street were these two single story buildings? What were they used for?

They were located on the left hand side of O’Connell Street (if driving) just before the traffic lights at Mallow Street. One was a small newsagents.

Development – a few hometruths – and not an attempt at ‘limerick bashing’ – i’m sure it’s typical of lack of social orientated building and planning in ireland.

A cautionary tale – the splurge of apartment buildings in Limerick city centre has led to a fall in rental income and a difficulty in actually tenanting properties. So many of the buildings which were originally intended as ‘luxury ‘ apartments have become in effect modern ‘slums’ populated by transient populations of migrant workers, students and those in receipt of rent allowances. Absentee landlords quick to cash in on a section -50 buck have abandoned their apts to the management agents and as a result these ‘new’ buildings are becoming decrepid and unkempt, abandoned
A quick stroll around steamboat quay or mount kenneth will confirm same. This contributes to the ‘corridor of poverty’ which runs right through the city centre.Suburbs now bulge with wealthy thirtysomethings and their lodgers, fearful to live in the city in case their 05 Landrovers will get scratched by the hoody wearing wolverines who roam at 1am, looking for a wingmirror to kick off.

Residential displacement continues as whole streets of houses once populated by families then purchased for student rental are coming onsale (Wolfe Tone Street / St Josephs Street) – while the shops once supported by settled residential communities are boarded up and abandoned (Parnell St).

those residences that are not for sale are being filled with the antisocial detrius of housing estates, given their marching orders by the city council and then a tenancy by the health board – god help us!

It’s not enough to create buildings which are easy on the eye – cities need to be a place where people want to live and bring up their families – why not abandon stamp duty for owner occupiers on city dwellings designated for regeneration and get people back into the city 7 days a week. not just weekends? it is the drip drip spend which keeps the corner shop and city centre pub open, locals who fill the coffers – and the church pews

The city councillors need to get the lead out, as the rot has well and truly set in. We need some concrete (oh the irony) initiatives to get people living in the city again – not some pathetic ‘spring fest’ or similar damp squib desperate efforts by the co-ordination office. and for god sake we should build on what we have, and not rip it down and replace it with another production line / bastard bauhaus/cladded shiny nightmare.

a hike in interest rates or a fall in numbers of house purchases – one notch tightened in the consumer belts and all of these retail outlets will be fighting for the same buck or packing up and heading to poland.

Ash1 – city resident

ps the barrington street property mentioned in an earlier thread still does not have a single tenant , 6 months after delivery. there are huge swathes of office space in the city centre for sales or lease and the city council continues to strangle businesses. it’s all a bit ’emperor’s new clothes’

So whats the solution?

@dave123 wrote:

[align=center:oplx7y87]center>
[/align:oplx7y87][/align]

As far as i’m awar the building pic above is adjacent to the planning application below,

Alterations to approved development (planning permissions P02/300 & P03/467) consisting of change of use of 17 no. apartments on 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th floors and Ground Floor Retail Unit amounting to 1,322 sq.m to a Consultants Clinic associated with Barringtons Hospital, addition of en-suite shower room to apartment no.s 12, 19 & 24 on 2nd, 3rd, 4th floors respectively (5.2 sq.m each), addition of chimneys to North wing of building, enlargement of first floor cafe by 6.7 sq.m, addition of 5.7 sq.m to penthouse apartment no. 25 on 5th floor, and minor alterations to building footprint, elevations to Mary Street and Little Fish Lane resulting from compliance with condition 14 of planning permission P02/300 in regard to archaeology. Mary St., Sir Harrys Mall
Northern Inner Relief Rd.
between Fish L

The building that PP refers to is actually under construction the far side of Baals bridge at the moment. But I think that the one in the photo is also going to be part of Barringtons at some stage

Fairly depressing description there, Ash1, but sadly I have to agree with you. Tim O’Malley wrote an interesting article in “Business Limerick” magazine last month ( will try and get it online soon) expressing similar views, which was good to see, as he’s probably in a better position than most to take action on the issues. As for addressing the problems/ opportunities facing Limerick at the moment, where do you begin? – Has anyone read “The Death and Life of Great American Cities?” It’s a fantastic book, more or less provides step by step instructions on how to create a sustainable city centre, however I’ll have to leave it at that for now – head is racing with too many thoughts on this thread so will get back to you when i manage to have a few more coherent thoughts on the subject.

Hi Ash1. Well said.

The shape of Limerick has been determined not by planners, not by architects, not by engineers and not by elected representatives. The current shape of Limerick has been, and continues to be, dictated by social workers. Good streets and solid neighbourhoods all over the city are being undermined by placing delinquent families in their midst without assessing the impact this policy has on the people who work and live there. This is because those who implement the policy are health-board administrators who have no ability to carry out such an assessment and have no qualificatioons. This is where power rests, and this is why people are leaving for the suburbs. Nothing will change until some neighbourhood group take a constitutional action to stop it. I personally know two people who cannot sell their homes because of the kind of people who have been placed next door to them, and at the same time can no longer afford to stay because of the threat to their children. This is a disgrace.

thanks for your posts – i sometimes think lunatics have taken over the asylum down here.
the problem with community action is that you need the community, and they have become so fragmented. And who do you take to task? within a couple of hundred yards of my parents home (off gracious georgian o’connell ave) there is a ‘wet hostel’, a resettlement unit for delinquent teenage travellers, a halfway house for young offenders (original planning permission granted for a ‘child development clinic’ ) and a further adult offenders hostel – one of whose occupants was recently sentenced for the murder of a barman in ’04. all concentrated in the space of 15 or so houses.

All of these are operated by many different ‘not for profit’ organistations – who are then able to pick up properties cheap as chips as neighbouring residents leave in droves. None of these projects have live in wardens. The ‘rent allowance’ payments alone have allowed one ‘saintly’ charity to build up an impressive multimillion property portfolio in dooradoyle and raheen. Urban myth or truth but there are reports that they have even gone door to door in some estates asking if their owners are interested in selling! you can imagine the blind panic that sets in.

It’s this kind of systematic undermining of social networks which is responsible for the ghetto which is springing behind the facade of all this new building. High density apartment blocks with a high churn of occupants with no emotional ties or financial investment to an area do not communities make. There is a real danger of creating new ‘no go’ areas in the city centre, where only the foolish or insane will choose to live from choice, and others only from necessity.

i am begining to think that ‘impact statements’ should be part of the planning process – i.e. what benefits will this development bring to the area – or that new build permission will only be granted for owner occupiers ,with a codicil that they cannot sell for a stated period of time – or ‘peppercorn’ type mixed developments of single / family housing – to create stability.

otherwise it is a depressing dangerous morass of undesirables and the few hardcore elderly who are hanging on by their fingertips. it’s is mess.

Sounds like a fairly scary scenario. As a student exiled to Dublin for the last few years – have to say I didnt realise that the negative side-effects of poor planning in the city centre would come about so fast, although it’s easy to see how. The fact is, that the health board etc. has to apply to the city council for planning permission for any of these facilities, be they new buildings or renovations etc. Unfortunately wet hostels etc are only one symptom of a much broader problem that exists in Limerick and elsewhere -that of ghettos. The whole city has, since Georgian times become compartmentalised into vast zones of single use – zones for students, industry, shopping, poor people, rich people, hospitals etc, all facilitated by the policies or lack of them of our government and its agents in city hall. This sort of planning policy flies in the face of all that is required to bring about the conditions for a sustainable city environment – diversity.

However on the up side, just as it only takes a few people to destroy a neighbourhood, so too a small number of people can start the process of reviving depressed areas. Had the oppoprtuntiy of living in Brooklyn a few years ago – ended up in what can only be described as a bit of a dodgy neighbourhood – our house was a recently converted mafia social club, nuclear waste was being stored less than a mile away and was offered drugs six times on the two block walk home from the subway station, the day i moved in. In the two years I stayed there – the transformation was staggering. Seems some civic minded locals decided to form a residents committee to pressure the borough council, the police, schools board,developers etc into providing better services and facilities in the area. Local parks were improved, the streets kept clean, zero tolerane policing enforced and as far as i know property taxes and rates were changed so that ,rather than all the users in one area paying the same rate – each property was assesed on its own merits so that a diverse gruop of people and businesses could afford to exist in the same area. The situation is now such, that i’d highly reccommend any visitor to New York to hop on the L train and take a trip to Williamsburg.

As for how that situation relates to Limerick – look at the People’s park since the playground was installed a couple of years ago, there seems to always be people around it, and i certainly don’t perceive it as the no go area it once was. On a broader level, I think there are plenty of people who share the the same concerns as expreesed on this forum. If enough people can organise themselves and make their concerns known to politicians,( who will be relying on your vote to hold onto their well paid jobs in a year or two) as well as presenting their own ideas and solutions to the problems facing us – it wouldnt take long for a more desirable vision of Limerick to emerge. Will have to end it for now – but i’m sure ther’ll be plenty more to follow.

I would agree with you about most of what you said, but I have to point out that the health board and the various charities don’t need permission from anybody to place individual families in houses. A single criminal family can utterly destroy a neighbourhood, and that is what these bodies are doing right now: destroying established communities. The health boards have never held themselves accountable, and the charities even less so. Nothing will change without their being forced to take account of the consequences.

In the new orthodoxy, you can’t criticise anyone without being shouted down. Nobody is responsible for their own behaviour, or that of their children. If your new neighbour brings a string of horses to graze the green areas of your neighbourhood, that’s his right. He has a tradition and a culture that you must respect. If his kids kick the ball into your garden to see if your back door is locked, you mustn’t say so, because that would be discrimination. The impact on you is not relevant, because he is disadvantaged and you are not. You and your spouse might work double shifts to pay the mortgage, and limit your family size so that you can educate them well. Another guy might not be able to find suitable work in this economy of full employment, might have twelve kids he can’t feed and won’t control. Who’s going to get the breaks – you or him? I’ll give you one guess.

Who’s responsible for the Docks masterplan?

It’s them alright. Just found it on their website. There’s a few other images,( still trying to figure out how to insert them on this site) not that that they really explain anything – it’s as vague and waffly as the accompanying shpiel. It’s a huge area – wonder what it all means. Any other entries been published? I knew the city council had commisioned a masterplan but never heard anything about it being a competition. As for the new block beside the park – past it last weekend, can’t believe that’s the finished product, you’d think with all the controversy surrounding the site, they’d have made a bit of an effort. The timber cladding, I can only presumed glued on, looks like it’s seen better days, although maybe it’ll fall off soon to reveal something much more pleasing, sort of like a a Carl Scarpa design on speed. It’s a real wasted opportunity there, although I don’t think it was wrong to build on a bit of the park. It would probably be best to sell off the big wedge shaped piece of land at the Wolfe Tone St. side along with the other bit of left over space near the station and complete the Georgian Square plan that was originally intended by Mr. Pery and others in the 1830’s.

This is another image of the docks masterplan.

It worked, thanks for your help dave123.

Cant really make up my mind about the edward street apartments,they do look a bit cheap and tacky to be honest, you really would have thought that given its sensitive location beside the people’s park that a more appropriate and tasteful design could have found!, unfortunately this just looks like any other apartment block that has sprang up in the city over the last 10 years or so and as a few posters have alluded to: these kind of developments arent always the best option, i think the city council are too taken with trying to bring people back living in the city centre especially after the disasterous failure of the livivg over the shop scheme, i must say im not a fan of this timber cladding either!. I see the pedestrianisation works on bedford row are to get underway on tuesday morning, i think they are sheduled to take around 10 months to complete, it involves the construction of a high quality aestethically pleasing paved surface, the installation of street furniture and new lighting, mature trees are to be planted and all cables and services are to be placed underground, they will also be a number of information kiosks.Its not clear how the development works on the savoy site will impact on the project however it will surely cause some delay, work is also due to start on the old central theatre shortly!

Limerick race company ltd has applied to raise the ground level on a portion of the old racecourse on the dock road/south circular rd in preparation for the large development that is planned for the site,this includes a large shopping complex,ofices park, industrial units, 1,000 residential units and a large number of sporting facilities and general public amenities. An application has also been submitted with regard to the hotel development at punches cross which includes a leisure centre and bar & restaurant,its not clear yet if the original public house is being retained as part of the development. A new building is also planned to replace the henry cecil that collapsed during the demolition of the carlton cinema,this was a real pity, im amazed no investigation was carried out or anybody brought to book over it, lets hope they replace it with something tasteful!..

BTW does anyone have any images of the royal george development?.

A few weeks ago i mentioned that a large shopping complex was being planned for the city centre, a number of retailers on patrick street (opposite aurthurs quay) had closed their doors in recent weeks and more are to follow in the coming days and weeks!. Well the plans are to be made public very soon, the mayor of limerick speaking on local radio said he would be in a position to make an annoucement in the very near future, and according to the local press a high profile meeting between the city council and a belfast development company was due to take place today (thurs 4th aug). It seems the development is even larger than first thought and encompasses a large part of the city centre including patrick street, rutland st, michael street,ellen st,cornmarket row and bank place, the developers have already bought up large tracts of land and the preplanning work has been finalised, there is rumours that shannon developments offices in the granary are to be bought up, but i find this hard to believe as the granary is a protected structure and millions was spent refurbishing it in the 80s. This plan (providing it gets approval) would be a huge boost for the city centre, not only would a scheme of this magnitude have a huge effect on the commercial rates(currently the highest in the country), it would also fit in nicely to the planned pedestrianisation and upgrade of the city centre, especially o connell street, most importantly it would be a fly in the ointment of all the existing retail parks & shopping complexes in the suburbs and those that are under construction or planned.The complex itself is the biggest ever planned for limerick and will easily be the biggest in munster, i suppose what is refreshing about this one is that it is not planned for some large field in the suburbs, it is right in the centre of the city and will breathe new life back into the heart of the city, an area that has been neglected for far too long, lets hope the plans for o connell st will restore it to its former glory!, if only we could put right the architectural mistakes of the 60s & 70s!.

The area bounded by this development has seen a large amount of steady development since the early 90s with a large number of new pubs, nightclubs and shop units opening up, now it seems the area is about to change beyond recognition!.. 🙂

Limerick Post 6th August 2005

Huge development planned

A HIGH profile meeting between a Belfast development company and management of Limerick City Council took place in City Hall on Thursday, to pave the way for what will be the largest commercial and retail development in Limerick to-date.

Planning officials in City Hall would not comment to the Limerick Post on Thursday’s pre-planning meeting and stressed that as no formal planning application has yet been submitted, they can not at this particular time supply details of the development that is expected to incorporate Ellen Street, Michael Street, Bank Place, Rutland Street and Patrick Street.

Speaking to the Limerick Post however, Defence Minister, Willie O’Dea said that what is planned is “a huge retail complex that will be the biggest in Munster and will, when completed, employ over 1,000 people”.

“The development company has bought up a rake of property already including Shannon Development’s accommodation in the Granary. It will bring a whole new impetus to the city centre and will dovetail very well with the planned restoration of O’Connell Street. This development which is as inevitable as next Christmas has huge potential for the city,” he said.

While a number of traders who will be potentially affected by the development declined to comment “at this stage”, several have already closed their premises with the closure of others pending soon.

Also reluctant to comment was leading city auctioneer, Pat Kearney, who is believed to be involved in the transaction.

“I can’t discuss this at this time. A lot will depend on what the Council will countenance,” was all he was prepared to say.

Admitting that he is “not au fait” with details of the development, Mayor Diarmuid Scully said that in tandem with the proposed major docklands project and the restoration of O’Connell Street, Bedford Row, William Street and Thomas Street, the city centre would become a powerful magnet for business.

“People will come into the city for high level , high quality goods – they can go to the suburban shopping centres for white goods etc but we must keep the commercial rate down and get the parking issue sorted out, but certainly this complete development hinging around Ellen Street, Rutland Street etc is wonderfully positive for the city,” he said.

A spokesperson for the planning department said that when the preplanning process is completed, a planning application will be submitted to City Council, followed by a presentation of the proposed development to the elected members.

The description of the development frightens me; it sounds like the development would involve a massive amount of demolition of historic building stock. The Georgian terrace on Rutland Street is one of my favourites in the city and is perfect across from the Hunt Museum. Even Ellen Street and Patrick Street have some interesting buildings which would be demolished, from the sounds of it. Will we be looking wistfully at old photos like this, , in 20 years time wondering how people could have been so stupid to demolish historic buildings?

The city centre needs retail development but replacing two or three entire city blocks with a massive shopping centre doesn’t seem like a great idea to me. The experience of Arthurs Quay and the Dunnes shopping centre on Liddy Street proves that it’s a very bad idea to trust a single private company with the upkeep and development of entire city blocks in Limerick. The only difference is that it looks like this development would be two or three times the size of Arthurs Quay and Dunnes combined. If, after 10 or 20 years, it ends up anything like Arthurs Quay or Dunnes, it will destroy that end of the city which is currently developing well in my opinion if slowly. I don’t see any way of preventing neglect like this from happening; this model of development is more suited to warehouse retail parks or out-of-town centres in my opinion.

Of course this development will be championed as the project which will save the city centre just as Arthurs Quay was so any objections in terms of conservation of historic buildings or questioning the sense in a planning policy which would allow a single company to control two or three city centre blocks will be seen as anti-development. The problem is that it is far easier for the council to rubber stamp the development and claim credit for doing something for the city centre than it would be to develop sustainable development plan for the city and spending money on improving the city centre environment for shoppers and residents. Even outside of retail, as was discussed earlier in this thread, it is already becoming apparant that just allowing developers to build as many apartments as possible in or around the centre doesn’t represent good planning or development policy. It looks good for a couple of years and the cranes make it look like the city is developing but the flaws become apparent within years.

Sounds like its a bit too early to dismiss it completely just yet. I think most people would agree that large single use speculative developments can and do usually impact negatively on their surroundings.

However there are at least 10 listed buildings in those few blocks and the development plan maps show that the area in question is of archaelogical significance. I would imagine that would prevent the wholesale demolition of the entire area. (even if all the other relevant issues are overlooked) The granary is a great building, one of those ones that made me want to do study architecture, and the Ormstons building on the corner of Ellen St. is another gem among others. I think Arthur’s Quay and the Dunnes Stores on Sarsfield St certainly set a bad precedent, but on balance, the new Dunnes Stores on Henry St. and the apartments facing the river constitute one the few decent developments in the city in recent years.

The area around Patrrick St has great potential especially, the Cahill May Roberts building and the shed looking structures at the corner of Michael St. There’s a real opportunity to create successful public space in the area and there’s a need for shopping to be part of it. The junction of Rutland St/ Charlotte Quay is the natural centre of the city – where English Town, Irish Town and Newtown Perry meet along with the Shannon and Abbey Rivers. There’s a great mix of buildings and uses in the area, the city hall, St. Marys cathedral, Hunt Museum, Potato Market, the Art College, The Granary as well as plenty of bars, restaurants and offices and the marina too. At present though, the area seems a bit overlooked by most people visiting the city centre, the focal point being at O’Connell St./ William St. – not exactly the most inspiring image to greet anyone, be they native or visitor. On the other hand, wouldn’t be great to sail down from Kilaloe passing by the wilderness along the Shannon and Park canal to be suddenly in the middle of a busy city centre, I can just see the 2010 Limerick all Ireland hurling champions pulling up in their boat to be greeted by cheering thousands along the river, confetti streaming from the rooftops, fire works over the Shannon and all the rest of it.

I guess what i’m getting at is that; for any public space to function succesfully, there needs to be a sufficient concentration of people and activities in the area to support it, among other factors .That is why Arthur’s Quay Park does not work at present and why new shops (especially a large department store) in the area around the Granary could be good for the area and the city as a whole. A new development perhaps incorpoating a hotel and apartments ( they aren’t all bad) , senstive to its context could be a very exciting project a the end of the day.

Hopefully we won’t be greeted some day with Willie O’dea rambling on to some property page editor about Dundrum style atriums (ugh) and 20000 car parking spaces etc. Guess we’ll just have to wait and see.

Found this image, courtesy of the good people at Newenham Mulligan – cant actually make out what part of Roches Stores it relates to, seeing as there’s a truck emerging from the corner entrance, must be a the rear of the building. Don’t know that the design is of any great architectural merit, but it would certainly improve the curent state of the place. I think the proposal has been put on the long finger, but with Brown Thomas getting their act together and a number of other decent clothes shops after opening in town recently, maybe that will be enough to give Roches a nudge in the right direction.

I think the new Roches facade ( from the 1940’s ) is probably an improvement on what went before – half arsed spanish looking classical motif is just not very Limerick, or maybe it is! Real shame what happened to the old Cannocks shop – think the appearance of the clock changed a few times over the course of its existance, if anyone has different pictures? It’s certainly different to the one that I remember from the early 80’s prior to it taking on its present hideous form. Also read an article somewhere recently in which the bit of left over road in front of penny’s was described by one of our erstwhile council officials as an ammenity area ( sorry no pictures of it at present, although the state of the place would probably shatter the lens) Bring on the Shunnel and pedestrianisation!

Have to say, Baker PLace is a great success, a really nice surprise to greet anyone going from the station downtown. The addition of those apartments and shops will work well with the existing church and hotel etc. The new landscaping is seemingly a sampler for the whole pedestrianisation project, and although it might not be the most progressive looking fantastic super dutch design that’ll be splashed over the covers of every trendy design magazine, it’s very much suited to its context. Tree planting and public benches seem to have lost favour with local authorities thruoughout the land, but it’s great to see the trend being reversed here. Have some decent images and maps, but scanner is down at present so will get them on line asap. Any more photos of William St? There’s so many fine old shops and department store buildings there, it’s a shame to see it in such a shabby state now, it’s hard to see it changing any time soon though, with all the traffic congestion etc.

As for the Edward St. apartments – got a few questions about that image – where did it come from? It appears somebody was fairly creative on the auld photoshop or else it’s an entirely different project to the one that has just been completed there. The apartments that have just been built, face directly onto Carey’s Rd (overlooking the Junction with Lord Edward St.) and so the houses in the background should not be visible in the image or else would be to the right of the apartments as viewed from the park!

As far as I know the properties on Liddy St all belong to Roches, so it’s entirely up to them what happens there. IS there any plans for the Dunnes stores site? All that’s been mentioned in the local press is that the remaining traders in the area are having a pretty diifficult time keeping the doors open. I tihnk there may have been some talk, a few years ago about relocating the Belltable down there, which sounds like a great idea -think a few Bolton St. architecture thesis explored the issue too, might see if there’s any possibilty of getting them on line.

Ta – although i’m still perplexed, it just doesn’t make any sense on a number of levels, still dont know if it’s the same project – surely Murray O’laoire couldn’t be responsible, what with having designed so many other great projects, tourist office, shannon airport, and the box in King john’s caslte etc. Shocking altogether – and it seems they did the new one at the top of William St. too. What’s going on?

I think its really sad when you look back at all the fantastic buildings that this city has lost over the years,superb buildings such as cannocks, the old roches stores(mcbirneys i think was the name of the department store before roches moved in), the old todds building was another huge loss, i think i have some pictures of it somewhere! Unfortunately the photo i posted of cannocks a couple of weeks back seems to be only one i can find,i read somewhere that cannocks was demolished in the late 60s, i really cant find any reason why it should have been demolished, obviously just an horrendous decision by the planning authorities and one that the city centre is much the worse for now, the old roches building was destroyed by fire in 1948, one of a number of devastating fires to hit the city centre in that era, i think in a way the most tragic story of all is that of todds, a building of such character was destroyed and replaced with arguably the worst building ever to “grace” the city centre!

Shane you mentioned something about brown thomas “getting their act together” have you some inside info on hopefully a revamp of the building or are ya just talking about their new menswear dept!, i actually feel like getting sick whenever i pass bt, nobody should look directly at that building, it wouldnt do you any good!

Im found this in the limerick leader archives, ill also try and upload them pics soon, just as soon as i learn how to upload them directly instead of as attachments!

Disastrous Limerick Fire

BUILDINGS gutted: many workers now unemployed.

ONE of the biggest fire disasters in recent times occurred in Limerick today (Tuesday, August 25, 1959), when the monster drapery house of Messrs William Todd and Co went up in flames.

It was the biggest fire in the history of Limerick.

The outbreak was first detected in the men’s wholesale department on the William Street side of the premises and within a matter of minutes this section was a blazing inferno.

Thousands watched as the Limerick Fire Brigade vainly fought to control the flames, but within half-an-hour this huge section of the building was completely enveloped with flames belching through the windows and threatening the adjoining shops until eventually Messrs Lipton and Messrs Burton were also destroyed.

The staff of Messrs Todds busied themselves with salvaging stock and books from the untouched portion of the building, but eventually had to desist because the task became too dangerous with portions of the upper floors threatening to fall in at any moment.

Men and women ran to and fro, salvaging whatever they could lay hands on, and despite a roaring wall of flames at their backs. Books were thrown on to the streets from the office windows.

Thirty minutes after the outbreak was first noticed, it spread to the upper storey of Messrs Burton’s Tailors and eventually so great was the heat that the fire engine in William Street had to be removed. One of the hoses caught fire, as volunteer workers were trying to haul it away.

When it was seen that the fire had gained such a grip that it was completely out of control, calls were sent to the brigades at Shannon Airport, Ennis, Rathkeale, and the garrison at Sarsfield Barracks was also quickly on the scene.

In all, 11 brigades were employed, including Cork, Kilmallock, Charleville, Fermoy, Ranks and Tipperary.

For over two hours hoses were played on the blazing four-storied building and on the adjoining shops to little effect. There were up to 30 hoses playing on the fire at 1.30pm. In Bedford Row, at 3.30pm, one hose became disconnected when crossed by a car, and onlookers were drenched.

The entire block of O’Connell Street, Thomas Street and William Street was cordoned off, and hundreds of volunteer workers assisted the brigades in manning the hoses, while all traffic was diverted.

At one stage there was a danger that the fire would spread across William Street to the garda barracks, but the gardai tackled the sparks that came in through the windows. The tyres of a bicycle lying outside the barracks went on fire.

About 15 minutes after the outbreak was first noticed, there was a huge explosion caused by the bursting of a fuel tank in the basement.

It was learned that the probable cause of the outbreak was the bursting of a fuel tank in the basement.

Just one hour after the alarm was raised there was a huge crash, and practically the entire facade of the premises crumbled to the ground. Fifteen minutes later the remaining portion caved in.

The property was wiped out in three hours, causing £1 million worth of damage, but some premises in the block were saved, including Nicholas’, Cromer’s, Gaywear, O’Sullivan’s licensed premises, the Grimsby Fish Stores, and the main offices of Messrs Todd and Co Ltd.

While Limerick Fire Brigade were battling with the outbreak, they were summoned to minor outbreaks at Cornmarket Row and Robert Street, and had to split forces.

Windows on shops opposite Todds on O’Connell Street cracked, and shopkeepers kept a bucket chain going to prevent further damage. The brigade also hosed down the premises.

Roches Stores removed all goods from its front windows, and other shopkeepers followed suit.

About 200 employees of Todds are now out of work, and another 20 from Lipton’s, plus others in the adjoining premises destroyed.

Todds fire was a watershed in the history of the city centre. Its stately interior, long and wide mahogany counters, and an all-round balcony with cast-iron ornamental railings, was a showpiece of another era.

Lipton’s, the noted general grocers, was noted for its meats and cheeses, carrying on a very old tradition there.

The end of Todds was the end of an era, heralding major changes in the city centre.

I think it’s pretty obvious now that Cannocks was a huge loss. However, that’s just one building in that area. You can see also the beatifully curved Tyler’s jewelers (I think that’s what it was called) which was at the end of a terrace of Georgian buildings most of which were demolished to develop Arthurs Quay. I can remember those buildings existing. More recently the historic Cruises hotel was demolished. In thirty years time, I guarantee that people will be looking at old photos of Cruises the same way we’re looking at Cannocks now. It is easy to criticise the mistakes of the past (knocking Cannocks); it is more difficult to be honestly self-critical when it comes to the destruction of interesting buildings which has happened recently and even more difficult still to properly value the historical building which are left and feel protective towards them.

This is the old todds department store, the one with the double decker parked outside it(if double deckers were used in limerick in the 50s, why arent they in use now with busses so overcrowded!), anyway it was indeed a fine,imposing building and would be a fantastic addition to the city centre had it survived,this whole block was destroyed in the fire,

What a disaster that was when you consider they replaced it with this heap of s***,

A sight for sore eyes 😮 , hard to believe this is supposedly the most upmarket and fashionable shop in the city, why the hell dont they do something about it, surely some imitation of a georgian facade could be put on it!

No, no inside info. goin on here Tuborg, Was referring to the fact that the whole inside of BT’s has been done up which means there’s a better choice of things on sale and that along with the other new shops that have opened, there’s less need to go to Roches now, so that might force them to up their standard a bit. As for the facade of BT’s – well it’s hardly alone in warrenting criticism. Most of the buildings around there (which at present marks the very centre of the city) convey the image of a very drab place, Dunnes Stores on O’Connell St, Bank of Ireland, Ryans Jewellers, penneys/ Burger King, Arthur’s Quay SC are all fairly depressing and it would be fairly optimistic to think that they’re all going to change overnight into some kind of spectacular architectural marvel. But if they do, here’s a couple of interesting precedents that go a little beyond Georgian pastiche

Where did the image of the new Royal George come from? Think someone said it was actually a new office on Henry st., some time back. It couldn’t be of O’Connell St., because the present elevetion is much narrower and is taller than it is wide. Is that the Shannon St. elevation? Also there is/was a for sale sign on the Henry St. side of the GPO, does anyone know anything about it? I believe the building was known as Roches Hanging Gardens which sounds like it must have had a fairly interesting history (again – sorry for the lack of pictures) It’s a redbrick single storey building just around the corner from the main part of the post office.

From LImerick Leader, May 28, 2005 –

20 Years Ago

AN POST STORM BREAKS OVER MAGIC GARDENS

CONTROVERSY raged in Limerick this week as workmen moved in to begin the construction of a £1 million sorting office for An Post at the once famous Roches Hanging Gardens in Henry Street.

An Post have been accused of “sheer vandalism” as they intend knocking down most of the existing building, which they own.

But postmaster Bill Marnane pointed out that they had contacted An Taisce and other interested groups who had no objection to the new office going ahead.

Referring to the plans for the new sorting office on the 800 square foot site, he explained that the existing facade was being kept intact as was the stone spiral staircase and the first archway.

However, Captain Frank Parker, president of Thomond Archaeology Society, told the Limerick Leader that they would like to see what remains of Roches Hanging Gardens preserved in its entirety.

“A substantial part of the original vaulting which supports the terraces is still intact and any scheme for the redevelopment of the property now occupied by the Post Office should provide for the preservation of this vaulting as well as the facade,” he added.

Seamus î Cinneide, the Limerick antiquarian, is this Saturday bringing a group of archaeologists and historians from all over the country on a tour of the city, including Roches Hanging Garden.

Mr î Cinneide said that An Post should be stopped from demolishing any of the building. Such action would be “sheer vandalism”.

Mr î Cinneide said that the gardens were built in 1808 by William Roche, a Limerick banker, to the rear of his residence at 99 George’s Street – now O’Connell Street.

They were on top of a series of arches which varied from 45 feet to 25 feet high. By means of glass houses, heated by ingenious flues, Roche grew exotic fruits like oranges, grapes and pineapples in one of the gardens.

The garden cost Roche £15,000 to build. Their high position afforded him magnificent views of the Shannon and Clare hills.

Although his fellow citizens nicknamed the gardens ‘Roche’s Folly’, Roche was a shrewd businessman.

He profitably sold the vaults underneath the supporting arches to the Revenue Commissioners as a bonded stores for £10,000 and an annual rent of £300.

During the emergency, the Department of Defence, singled out the building as an ideal air raid shelter.

From Limerick Post – 12/8/05

Demolition of St Mary’s Park?

Marie Hobbins
A LOCAL councillor’s claim that the 450 houses in St Mary’s Park will be demolished to make way for a new housing estate has been rubbished by Defence Minister, Willie O’Dea. He told the Limerick Post on Wednesday that such a plan is “definitely not on the Government’s agenda”.

But Cllr John Gilligan categorically states that demolition of the houses, built in the 1930s, will proceed as part of a major regeneration plan for St Mary’s Park.

Confirming that a study has been prepared for the regeneration of St Mary’s Park, Noeleen Ryan, co-ordinator for the RAPID (Revitalising Areas by Planning Investment and Development) Programme for the inner city said: “This has gone to the Department of the Environment for approval but the Government has told us that we will get regeneration. In order to secure this we have to put a strategy in place to cover all aspects of the area – social, economic, environmental, educational, etc as the plan is to regenerate and lift the entire area.

“A project manager will be appointed and a company formed – all the relevant agencies will have an impact, not just the local authority,” she said.

Part of the regeneration plan would be the construction of another road into St Mary’s Park and the development of new business to create employment in the area.

“The study has to go before Cabinet as capital funding will be required,” informs Ms Ryan

Minister O’Dea has emphatically dismissed any demolition plan for the housing estate and the Council’s Housing Committee member, Cllr Joe Leddin contends that it does not make sense that with millions recently invested in installing new windows and doors in the St Mary’s Park houses and a planned programme of central heating installation due to commence soon, that demolition of the houses is on the cards.

“These houses are not lined up for demolition – it would be nonsense to have put new doors and windows at such a huge cost into the houses, not to mention the central heating that is due to go in and two years later demolish them,” he said.

A contradictory view from Ms Ryan is that the central heating programme will commence in Lee Estate but will not progress to St Mary’s Park.

Adamant that demolition is very much on the agenda, Cllr Gilligan said: “The houses involved, built in the 1930s, are mass concrete – their life span is well past. Why shouldn’t they be demolished – it happened in Ballymun which was only built in the 1960s.”

Pointing out that the often maligned RAPID Programme is at last beginning to yield results, the councillor said that money is now being released for various new projects for King’s Island.

“We’re getting 900,000 euro for a new creche in St Mary’s Park, 120,000 euro for the Widows Alms Houses,27,000 euro for a roof to the Star Rovers Club, 40,000 to rail off their pitch and 50,000 for an all-weather pitch for the club. There’s also been tens of thousands invested in the refurbishment of local schools. Money is being released but I’m looking forward to the big one, the regeneration of St Mary’s Park.”

The Department of the Environment was not in a position to comment on the issue at the time of going to press.

Irish Independent, Saturday, 13 August, 2005

Three contenders line up to build indoor arena

SUPERMACS owner Pat McDonagh faces competition over his dream to build a major indoor arena outside the capital.

Two Munster-based businessmen – one in Cork and the other in the Limerick area – are understood to be putting together plans for the development of a major indoor arena for a variety of entertainment events.

Both are understood to have completed feasibility studies on the project but have chosen separate locations, in Limerick and Cork, for their proposed arena.

Galway-based Pat McDonagh proposed to locate a €100m development, including an 8,000-seat indoor arena, a hotel and restaurants in Athlone, Co Westmeath, but this ran into planning difficulties and he is now considering a number of other locations.

He confirmed last night that he has looked at Galway, Limerick and “another midlands location” as alternatives.

Limerick appears to be a likely location, given the proximity of Shannon Airport, with its huge volume of European low-fares traffic, and the city’s improving infrastructure.

Limerick Mayor Diarmuid Scully believes the city should do all in its power to ensure it does not miss the opportunity to secure the development.

“We must put our best foot forward, roll out the red carpet to these people to make sure that we do not lose out.

“All you have to do is look at what the National Exhibition Centre in Birmingham did for what was up to then a pretty much run-down city centre.

“It revitalised the whole city centre, turning it into one of the most vibrant in Europe,” Mr Scully said.

The mayor predicted that a site on the outskirts of Limerick would be the likely location, although he did not rule out the possibility of it being located on the docklands.

“One way or the other, it will probably take both the city council and county council working together on this, but that would not be a problem,” Mr Scully said.

Eugene Hogan

Ya its great to see progress being made on the savoy site, this is a really important development for the city centre and its completion cant come soon enough, my only hope now is that it lives up to all the hype and dosent become another flop, i suppose the fact that it’s a mixed use scheme will work in its favour, the hotel element of it is definately needed and a 5 star hotel slap bang in the middle of the city will obviously be very attractive for tourists and buisness people alike, a top class hotel was needed in the city centre but you’d have to wonder about the viability of the new hotel at the george site,its going to be a lot smaller than its counterpart at the savoy and with a new luxury hotel planned for the old jurys, you’d wonder would a larger retail development at the george have been more appropriate, as it is the first 2 floors are planned as retail space, these larger retail outlets are a sign of things to come and they are really going to put it up to cruises street where oasis have moved out and next are due to follow shortly citing a lack of space as the reason, this probably highlights the inadequacy of cruises street for larger retailers!

BTW great news on that events centre, something the city is really lacking!

Well. I still can’t believe you approve of that heap on Edward St., Dave123.

If it lasts half as long as the Savoy did, i’d be surprised. It’s not only the fact that it looks cheap, which bothers me – the whole project appears to be the product of a lazyminded approach by architects, developer and planners. It is the epitomy of everything that’s wrong with new developments in Limerick today (as described by Ash1 a few weeks ago)

As far back as 1991, a report was published on the success or otherwise of the first urban renewal schemes throughout the country – Murray O’laoire were involved in preparing that report, which included a section on the design of city centre apartment schemes. One of the many observations made was that new developments should have a variety of unit sizes to ensure a good social mix, as is the norm in the rest of Europe, so what do we end up with in Limerick, 14 years later – a block of 33 two bed apartments on Edward St and another one of c.135 two bed apartments on William St. – These lessons should be well learned at this stage as there are enough examples in this country and elsewhere of successful apartment schemes. It’s pretty disheartening to say the least.

On a related point, is anyone aware of an apartment scheme in Ireland which includes a service lift and entrance (which allows for apartments to be renovated or upgraded without inconveniencing other residents or closing off roads and footpaths to accomodate cranes etc.)?

As for Annacotty, it is good to see the place looking a bit more lively these days – the new bars etc have been hopping the couple of times i was out there, and the river makes a great backdrop to the village, long live Annacotty! – I guess Dunnes Stores will have to open a branch or two there soon though, given the rate at which they seem to be proliferating in Limerick. 3 new stores in as many years, can’t help but wonder are they trying to take over the world? There’s plenty of room in my hot press or perhaps under the sink if they’re stuck for sites and there’s easily enough room on the chimney for a spar, centra and vodaphone outlet if they want to make a bit of a shopping centre out of it!

Is the demolition of the Savoy still in progress? Saw it during the first couple of days and it was fairly spectacular – the wrecking ball/ drill cut straight through the building ,the tv screens for the bowling alleys were hanging on by a thread, and you could see straight thru’ a section of the cinemas. Hope there’s a new cinema in town to replace it soon. Don’t think ther’s any risk of oversupply in in the hotel sector though Tuborg – seems a good no.of them are reporting 90% occupancy since all those Ryanair flights started out of Shannon. It was reported in the Post recently that there wasn’t a single room available in the city one weekend and if the convention centre gets built there’ll be capacity for plenty more. It’s the best idea to come about in years, a development that would suit Limerick perfectly. Did quite a bit of research on the subject for my thesis last year so will stick it up here soon – as it’s undergoing major reconstructive surgery at the moment, if any one’s interested.

Also Tuborg, What’s BTW stand for?

Pretty sure Murray O’Laoire designed the apartments at Lord Edward St!!! and BTW stands for By the way!

That’s what makes them all the more disappointing – i’d be tearing my hair out if I had any. Surely we could have expected so much better from that practice?

You have to bear in mind that Planning was granted for a development next door as well but has not started and maybe that is why you feel it is a bit sore. The developement is not finished and the copper finish has not yet been applied. Give it a chance and it might just grow on you! Remember that such a developemnt provides much needed security for the Park itself!

Well that’s fantastic news – nothing was making sense until now, – the photomonatage, the timber cladding looking things etc. thanks for the clarification. I realise that the building’s presence could potentially benefit the park, but it would be reassuring to know that, that is by design rather than coincidence. It sure would be nice to get the views out of that penthouse. Is there going to be a mix of apartment types then? I hope it gets built soon because as it stands – well enough has been said on that!

Do ye not think Annacotty is being overdeveloped considering. Has lost it’s rural character is u ask me with suburban style anywhere housing estates on its perimeter. Won;t be long until it’s part of Castletroy sprawl

Don’t really know the area too well, and was only there at night, so apart from the view from the main road it’s difficult to know what the place is really like. Guess suburbia is inevitable in this age and if it happens well it’s usually better if it’s stuck on to an existing village rather than growing out of nothing. In the mean time here’s a few photos from my archive for anyone still unfamiliar with Limerick –

And some more –

County Hall, Dooradoyle –

And finally for now –

there is a very good article from roughly 2 months ago at http://www.limerick-leader.ie/issues/20050604/index.html and it’s worth a read. i don’t know if it was posted before by anyone else but i just found it interesting. this thread is big and it would take too long to look. 🙂

Good article alpha and what interesting stuff. I like the picture too. It looks good. It’s amazing that now it is almost complete people are begining to like it. I like it myself.

I was watching the RTE News several months ago and I saw an article about Limerick having 3 of the countries tallest buildings in the near future. We all know about the Clarion Hotel and Riverpoint but what will be the 3rd? Are they talking about Newton House or something else? I hope this 3rd one they are talking about is not Newton. I’d prefer somthing as tall as the other two. Then again they could be talking about 3 different buildings we haven’t even heard of yet. This article was in the news before Heuston Gate was granted planning permission. Info would be much appreciated.

@paul lite wrote:

Good article alpha and what interesting stuff. I like the picture too. It looks good. It’s amazing that now it is almost complete people are begining to like it. I like it myself.

vey true. people knock things but then when they are built their attitude changes. having said that… that is not true with all buildings. for example hawkin’s house should never have been built. the same goes for college house. they have no style whatsoever. my attitude to those particular buildings will always be the same, yuck. lol. i am looking forward to hawkin’s house being demolished. the sooner the better. staying with limerick though, it’s nice to see this city starting to build up. i wonder what it will be like in 20-30 years? i haven’t been to limerick in a while but i should check it out soon. i want to see these new changes in this city. 😉

That looks fairly logical and it not only reflects much actual expansion over the past decade it would also give Limerick City a chance to expand without loss of control to local authorities with contrary objectives.

They must be the ones I heard about on the news dave123. It is interesting to know about these things. I must say it is exciting to hear about these developments popping up in Limerick.

hee hee, lol. i like that angle of view on the clarion hotel. that makes it look huge. it’s soaring. 😉

I think the building on henry street you’re referring to dave is the former an post property, it used to house their sorting office for the limerick area,it was bought by a local developer about a year ago but since then not much has happened, its probably complicated by the fact that it is a listed building and alterations can only be made to the inside, there was speculation that it was to be converted into third generation office space but seen as the riverpoint building has been fully let and the high level of vacant premises in the local office market maybe these plans have been put on hold, construction is also starting soon on 2 sites to the rear of the old county council buildings, this area has been derelict for a number of years and the development is long overdue, the 2 building are to contain apartments and retail outlets, if only the esb would do the right thing and sell their premises the redevelopment of the street would be complete.

Work is progressing well on the savoy site and word is that interest in the retail outlets is really strong, at last some good news for the city centre, especially with the jetland, city east and the crescent extension all nearing completion, an annoucement is also imminent on the rejuvenation of the michael street,ellen street,bank place area, hopefully it will be a properly thought out plan. Also dave i think you were asking about the corner of henry street, this was where the henry cecil bar used to be, it was one of the oldest bars in the city and was due to be renovated for retail use, unfortunately it collapsed when demolition work was underway on the carlton cinema, it was a real shame as the building at least had some character as opposed to the bank of scotland building which to me looks like an egg box!

Finally there hasnt been much news lately on the jurys site at sarsfield bridge, permission was granted for a 5 star hotel and conference centre and apartments were also included in the plan but its been appealed to an bord planeala on the grounds that the height of the development (up to 14 storeys) is not in keeping with the character of the area, seems to be a similar complaint to the ardhu site, in fairness i think this one will get the go ahead!.

Just saw a planning notice in the Leader for another hotel – at the corner of Pery Sq/ Barrington St – sounds like a small enough development involving the restoration of a Georgian house and a five storey addition to the rear. As for the development at Punches Cross – it was supposed to be a hotel with the original pub left intact, but it seems to have been put on hold for a while. There’s going to be a lot of hotels… and dunnes stores’ in Limerick when it’s all finished! Got this picture of Pery Sq from this website –

Well, Dave123 – you mentioned the terrace on Pery Sq – It has a fairly interesting history.

It was the last georgian terrace to be built in Limerick in 1836. It was financed by means of a tontine, whereby each of the investors in the project received rent on their investment while they remained alive. As each member of the tontine died so too, their shares and the last person alive ended up owning the whole terrace. Seemingly this form of investment resulted in an untimely end for many people and so these types of companies were outlawed, although i’m not sure if Pery Sq gave rise to any such carry on.

Also the terrace was meant to be part of a planned square around what is now the People’s Park – (I think it was for residents only, back in the day) however those six houses were never intended to be continued on, so it will be interesting to see how the new part of the hotel is integrated with the existing house – I think there is a vacant lot behind the house on Barrington St. If you look at the photo you can just about see that the entrances to the houses at either end of the terrace are to the side as opposed to being at the front and as well as that each of the end houses are set slightly forward. These gestures were apparently intended to give the whole scheme the appearance of a unified entity – like a large country house instead of 6 townhouses – so i read somewhere anyway.

No. 2 Pery Sq. has been restored to something of its original form by the civic trust and is open to visitors if you’re interested. Here’s an image from a book called,”The Building of Limerick” by Judith Hill which is a fairly good introduction to the history of the city’s planning and architecture.

Also the old county council buildings are the row of 5 or 7 converted georgian houses at the junction of O’Connell St and Mallow St, if that’s any help.

Here’s an image of the warehouse referred to earlier on (apologies for the picture quality). It’s from that Judith Hill book too.

Those warhouses are fairly decent buildings, there’s a few of them in Limerick, but don’t ever remember seeing them anywhere else, at least not on such a large scale – do they exist anywhere else?

Some promo stuff from the city council on pedestrianisation project –

More from the promo –

I don’t wish to engage in a comparative analysis of the respective strengths/weaknesses of Limerick and Galway, but I do wish to make some very simple observations. Having lived in Galway for 9 years and Limerick for 4, I feel that I can draw some conclusions about the nature of both towns. In summary, I left Galway to move to Limerick for employment reasons – I left Galway reluctantly and I have missed it ever since. It is a wonderful town/city to live in and, afterall, that is ultimately what an urban space should be about. I left Limerick after 4 years as I found it dreary, unsafe, boring, and largely depressing. The essential difference between Galway and Limerick does not relate to size, population, weath, or retail parks. It relates to one thing which the CSO cannot measure – namely, attitude. Galway looks to the outside world and sees itself as an international town/city. That is evident in its festivals, its cosmoplitan flair, etc. Limerick looks inward on itself in the traditional old small town Irish way. It has no sense of the international. That is evident in the petty gangland squabbles which still bring it down. In short, Limerick might be more ‘urban’ than Galway, as some of you have claimed (by this I presume you mean it has more ‘big’ buildings and wider streets), but it is certainly far more ‘small town’ in its mentality.

On a related issue – surely the debate about whether Limerick/Galway are cities/towns is redundant – both are, by international standards, towns. Indeed, even in the UK both would be considered towns according to their population levels. Ireland (Rep.) has 2 cities – Dublin and Cork (at a stretch). Surely this should guide the discussion a little by casting a modicum of perspective on the debate.

So if Galway or Limerick were to become cities by international stanards, how many people, at least, would have to live in them?

That changes every year, but is now running at 192,815.

Or else have a cathedral or city charter.

PDLL, people like you really piss me off, whats the point in opening up an old argument that ended about 2 months ago, fair enough you’re entitled to your opinion but to be honest you’re talkin serious bulls***,its obvious you’re from galway and are just trying to blow it up again, fair enough it has some bit of charm about it, but really i dont see what all the fuss is about, its city centre is pretty small and insignificant and to be truthful lacking in interesting buildings, there is something quite bland about them, just because the shops are painted bright colours and the streets are narrow and cobbled dosent mean its got more going for it than anywhere else, it comes across as a bit fake to me in fairness, a serious case of a city being overhyped. You’re not on the galway city tourist board or anything are ya?

You see its obvious you’ve fallen victim to press stereotyping, no matter what happens in galway or dublin it inevitably gets played down, heres an example, at the weekend a tv personality was mugged in dublin yet it only made a small column in the corner of PAGE 16 of a well known broadsheet, why?, because it happened in our beloved capital city of course!. If a similar incident happened in limerick it would make front page news and thats a fact!, there are plenty of things that happen in galway and yet go almost unreported, its widely known that galway has a serious public order problem yet its kept quiet so as not to upset the tourist trade!

This crap about limerick being unsafe is getting incredibly tired at this stage, is this opinion formed from your own personal experiences? or are you just a bandwagoner, personally i think its the later!

If you dont have any opinions of your own or have anything constructive to say, then theres no place for someone like you on this forum!

@PDLL wrote:

The essential difference between Galway and Limerick does not relate [in terms of] retail parks.

Galway is a mess; it more so than any other place in Ireland is choking on its own economic success by failing to translate this into good planning/architecture , I say this with a heavy heart as I have extensive connections with the City of Galway and it really annoys me when transients such as yourself point to retail parks as a bonus. The Headford Road roundabout must be the worst inner suburban road junction in any City in Europe. It is directly attributable to the planners who sanctioned it and the NRA for not performing their duties under the 1993 Roads Act.

Whilst Limerick is not perfect they are at least acheiving densities that Galway can only dream about in 5-10 years time. A little more control over the design quality of much of the infill and Limerick would get quite a good report card. I’m looking for a copy of the Limerick PLUTS if anyone can PM me.

Any future discussion on the fabulousness or otherwise of Galway might prove more insightful on its own thread if anyone has a particular interest.

Found this article recently on http://www.railnews.co.uk . A little off the point perhaps, but should be relevent to the future development of Limerick ;

SHANNON AIRPORT RAIL LINK STUDY ORDERED
Rail news & views | April 2005

11 April 2005

IRISH Railways — Iarnrod Eireann — has been instructed by Transport Minister Martin Cullen to carry out a feasibility study of a new link linking Shannon Airport with Limerick City.

The proposed rail spur to Shannon Town and the airport would be 10 kilometres (six miles) long.

The study will investigate a number of issues including cost, passenger numbers, the route, the location of stops and changes. The report is due to be published within six months.

The Shannon Rail Partnership has carried out a number of studies in the past two years, which indicated that the rail link will be viable.

Commenting on the study ordered b y the Transport Minister, a member of the Shannon Rail Partnership, Padraig MacCormaic, said: “We think there will be a successful and positive outcome from the study, especially with the airport growing and Ryanair and other airlines coming in, which will bring in thousands of people to the airport and they won’t all want to be hiring cars. If a rail link was in place they would be able to get to Limerick and Ennis quickly and conveniently.”

PLUTS sounds vaguely familiar TP, think I may have come across it before.Will try an help but little more explanation might jog my memory.

Apologies for stirring up the Galway-Limerick debate – I have just entered this thread and perhaps should not have done so in the manner I did. I had wished to deal with the issue of Limerick and Galway being referred to as cities, but I thought a little bit of personal experience might also be useful.

To answer Tuborg’s reply – I am not from Galway and I do not work for the Galway tourist board; I have not fallen victim to press stereotyping; and the bit about Limerick being unsafe is based upon my own personal experiences.

Oddly enough, I was subject to two incidents of public disorder in Galway, so my judgement is not flavoured by some romantic image of that particular town. Despite that, I could quote many many more incidents of violence which I witnessed in Limerick in a shorter period of time (like some 10 murders in 2001 or 2002 – I cannot remember – why don’t you check your precious CSO statistics for violent crime if you want to avoid the crap you read in the papers). If I did that, however, I would be accused of putting Limerick down, so why would I bother. ANyway, nobody wants to go down the road of I saw this and I saw that in whatever town in Ireland. There is no doubt that Limerick gets a rough deal in the press – but it could do a lot to improve its image and to make itself a more desireable place to live. Seize the day and all of that. Funnily enough, when I worked there many of my colleagues praised the city no end and yet where did many of them choose to live? – Killaloe and Annacotty. Strange.

If you leave Ireland and go back to it with a fresh and unbiased pair of eyes, you will notice a number of interesting things. 1. Galway and Limerick are both medium sized towns (we could debate population definitions for years and still not come to a final answer – indeed the debate has been raging in this part of the world since the Victorian period and before and we are still no closer to some absolute figure. For my own part, I would probably offer a figure of 150K + as being a reasonable estimate for a city). Those who argue strongly that Galway and Limerick are anything more than medium sized towns simply uphold the old Freudian penis-envy type mentality which obviously feels inadequate when comparing the towns of Ireland with those in other countries. Sligo Corportaion (or Borough Council of Sligo) is a classic example insofar as it continually presses for city status for Sligo – a town you can still walk across in 1 hour. The civic authorities in Tuam wouldn’t be far behind (‘welcome to the Cathedral City of Tuam’ and all of that). Surely this is an example of the Irish sense of humour in action. It is obvious that Ireland still has a deep sense of its own inadequacies and one place this comes out is in its sense of urbanism. This is so very obvious when reading the self-inflated reports etc on the great metropolis of Dublin – a small to average city by western European standards. Some times you would imagine it is another Shanghai by the way it is referred to in the media. 2. The towns of Ireland are largely unorganized, dirty, lacking in serious and widespread indigenous architectural merit and traffic ridden. What little architectural merit there is is undermined by the people’s inability to show pride in what they have and to keep the place in order (and, yes, Tuborg, I am Irish). Personal profit is, after all, all that matters – Yeats was right on that one. My own home town of Sligo is a filthy hovel with broken down streets, falling down buildings, boarded up windows, dirty footpaths, no public transport worth speaking of, a lack of play amenities for children, very few cultural attractions of any national or international merit and a mentality to go with it. That is a story replicated across many other Irish towns – the only variation is that some towns exhibit it on a larger scale than others. In that context, Galway is probably the best of a very dismal lot – that is why I celebrated the things which it does offer – including a greater degree of cleanliness than many Irish towns, some nice public amenities including play areas for kids, a reasonable public transport network and some interesting cultural attractions and the people actually make an effort to keep it in good condition – they know what makes them their bread . In addition, it has the bonus of the Salthill promenade – a designated public walking area which is not so common in Irish towns.

The beligerent language and comments of such contributors as Tuborg are simply a verbal expression of the type of ignorant mentality that has informed Irish urban planning since the foundation of the State and the ‘success’ of our new found wealth. Perhaps Limerick is just a very good example of that mentality expressing itself in an architectural and spatial form. Tuborg, I do hope you can look beyond the smoke stained red brick and see that.

@PDLL wrote:

Oddly enough, I was subject to two incidents of public disorder in Galway, so my judgement is not flavoured by some romantic image of that particular town. Despite that, I could quote many many more incidents of violence which I witnessed in Limerick in a shorter period of time (like some 10 murders in 2001 or 2002 –

You must be unique in actually witnessing 10 murders anywhere in the World in 2 years; was it a mass murder or dide you have to give witness statements on each one?

That is some analysis you were assaulted twice in Galway, saw 10 murders in Limerick and think that your home town is a filty hovel, have you ever considered emmigrating?

Badly phrased, I admit. I am happy to state that I did not witness any murders in Limerick (other violent and criminal incidents, yes, murders, no) . The awkward nature of the way I expressed myself should not, however, take away from the actual facts of the matter. Not wishing to prolong the discussion on Limerick/Galway, if people truly want to settle the issue without recourse to the press or subjective public opinion, then let them consult the CSO statistics for violent crime in Irish urban centres. Stereotypes may be disagreeable but they do not come from the wind.

I don’t usually write messages in this forum, but just for the people who don’t know, Ireland has five cities Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford. Different countries have a different population quota to be recognised as a city. In the UK, there are over 100 cities, even though their quota is higher the ours, the country is alot more urbanised then us. But, in Australia, the population needed to retain city status is only 15,000. If that was the case here, every back wash of a villiage would be looking for city status, which I am totally against because places like Sligo, Killarney or Clonmel don’t have the proper services of a city like Dublin, Cork or Limerick.

I thought that the Republic of Ireland had 6 cities in total. Kilkenny is also a city and therefore should be included in the count. 🙂

Gosh, Irish provinciality is rampant on the city issue. For the record, a city has a city charter. That’s it. Used to have to have a cathedral too, so Armagh is a city I believe. Services have nothing to do with it – places like Clonmel and Kilarney may not have the services of mighty towns like Limerick, but Limerick is not New York nor London nor Los Angeles and has no comparable services.

If we stick to size then nothing but Cork(barely) and Dublin can be considered cities. London has a population of 10 million or so. it is patently ridiculous to describe towns of 15,000 as back wash villages while accepting the claims of Limerick at about 80,000.

in that case you are accepting that an urban centre can be a city at 0.8% of London’s population but not at .15%; which is absurd.

So cities are chartered as cities. And that’s it. Kilkenny is as valid a city as Limerick.

There are no prizes to be won here folks. Cities in America can have 2,000 people and less, it is just another type of urban incorporation.

Dave whats the source of your information on the Shannon rail link?

asdasd, Forgive me if I’m wrong, but I’ve never heard of Kilkenny being called a city. And new cities are created almost every year in the UK, if they don’t have a charter, it’s simple, the Queen gives a new city it’s charter, just becasue the charter isn’t hundreds of years old doesn’t mean that it is invalid (e.g. Wolverhampton). Also, I think going by cathedrals is too old fashioned for todays society, Cloyne, a villiage with less then a 1000 people has a cathedral but I wouldn’t call it a city. Anyway, getting away from that, has the Shannon rail link been given the go-ahead or is it in planning stages? It ‘s such exciting news, and it will beat Dublin to the punch of having a airport-city rail link.

pdll are you still talking?, it would have been wise to shut up a long time ago and stop making a tool of yourself, its hard enough to take you seriously as it is without some more blinkered and partisan comments, as shane said why dont you go away and set up an “i love galway” thread, Also i never once mentioned issues of urban planning in limerick in my last post, maybe you should start a thread about that, anything would be better than the drivel you’re spouting at the moment, i just hate it when someone who’s quite obviously ignorant and uninformed comes on and tells some blatant lies, you have zero credibility pdll, if you cant stick the heat then get out of the kitchen!

Anyway on more important topics great to see some movement on the park canal and the rail link to the airport, 2 really important projects for the city, a rail link to shannon surely makes sense as the distance involved is quite small and with passenger numbers growing all the time there is sure to be a steady demand for it, its also a nice alternative to road travel, especially with no plans to improve the section from clonmacken to bunratty, its a pretty unsafe and substandard section with median breaks and residential accesses, grade seperation is badly needed on this stretch,id say its pretty far down the priority list though, and yes it would be great to beat dublin to an airport link.

Unfortunately dave i think we will have to wait until the southern ring is completed to see work on o connell st start, again down to government mismanagement, i lad to laugh today when i was looking through some old news, the predicted completion date for the 2nd section was EARLY 2006, a little bit optimistic at this stage i think, although if they started tomorrow you’d never know, although placing a toll on it defeats the whole purpose of the project especially so close to the city , i think we’ll continue to see hgvs in the city centre for a long time yet! 😡 .The o connell street project is really urgent as the street really deserves better, it would give it some space to breathe and revitalise itself!

A for the city debate i suppose really there is only four real cities in Ireland, its actually hard to find another country with such an imbalance in population between cities, dublin is way out on its own, id imagine the poulation of the greater city area in Cork is around 170, 180 000, Limerick is around 100,000 and Galway 80,000 or so, waterford then has only around half the population of limerick, kilkenny then is a city in name but in name only, it really dosent feel like a city when you walk around it, it dosent really have the variety of shops and services you’d expect from a city, there dosent seem to be any big centre of employment and the big giveaway is it dosent have any third level colleges, still i must say i like the layout of its streets and the old world charm it has!..

Tuburg and Dave123, of course I am still talking. Opinions and debate are what make life interesting – we should strive to entertain both and not castigate those that we do not necessarily agree with.

What originally interested me in this thread was the definition of a city and the sense of urbanism which makes some towns/cities distinct from others.

A number of contributors originally suggested that the presence of wide-streets and the construction of high rise buildings in Limerick added to the sense of urbanism which Limerick apparently enjoys over other medium sized towns in the Republic. This appears to be an approach that defines a city and its ‘urban feel’ (for the want of a better expression) according to building height and street width rather than according to the size of its population. While the presence of high buildings generally denotes a reaonable population density and a certain degree of economic stability, it cannot be seen as being the defining characteristic of a city or of a sense of urbanism. To suggest that would imply that an urban area with a significantly higher population but with narrower streets and lower buildings is somehow less of a city and more of a town. That is not logical.

Obviously it is, in the post-medieval world, largely irrelevant to consider things like city charters and the presence of a cathedral in defining the modern city. That is why I have not considered such issues (otherwise,, for example, as SLigo has both a Catholic and a Protestant Cathedral it could probably proclaim itself to be a metropolis and not even a city). In that context, surely there is a need to define what is a city in a more empirical way (ie by population levels) and not by a subjective and rather arbitrary sense of an urban feeling which was the original criteria used to distinuish Limerick (as a city) from Galway (as a town). In my orginal posting I argued that both were, by international standards, medium sized towns – with reasonably comparable population levels, I stand by this. Putting issues of national and provincial pride aside, most people would accept that Limerick and Galway are both diminutive by international standards and if they don’t believe this they should listen to the remarks of tourists when they read about Galway as ‘Ireland’s third largest city (pop. 60,000)’ in their touist books. It would be interesting if the EU established a set of population guidelines which set standards for defining cities and towns across Europe – where would Limerick and Galway fit in then?

Obviously it is, in the post-medieval world, largely irrelevant to consider things like city charters and the presence of a cathedral in defining the modern city.

no it is not. The world is full of tiny cities that have city charters. the republic has 6 cities including Kilkenny, and who knows, we may create more in the future.

Here’s a small america city and capital

http://www.carson-city.nv.us/aboutcarson/demographics.htm

population 52,000.

Here is a small Irish one

http://www.kilkenny.ie/

population 24,000

( there are smaller cities than carson but I can only google so much)

Now get over it. Being a city means nothing in terms of size, or buildings. It is a legal definition. You need a city charter, and cities have Lord Mayors, not Mayors. So back to pictures of Limerick. I was enjoying this thread as I dont get to Limerick much.

Here’s a bit on the LImerick PLUTS (Planning Land Use and Transportation Strategy) – from the Limerick Leader 22/12/01

Expansion in city and towns strong
By DEARBHLA LOOBY

SMALLER family sizes in the mid-west region mean that the number of households will grow by about 50 per cent by 2026.

This is one of the forecasts in the Limerick Planning, Land Use and Transportation Study presented to Limerick City Council by Malcolm Buchanan of Colin Buchanan and Partners, consultants at this week’s meeting.

The report covers the city and a radius of abut 25 miles, including Newcastle West, Kilmallock, Foynes, Nenagh and Ennis.

The study deals with the period from 1996 to 2026, and predicts also that the total population in the area will grow by between 47,000 and 58,000, to approximately 260,000 in the next 20 years.

The present populations (incuding suburbs) of the larger centres are: Limerick 83,000; Ennis 18,000; Shannon 8,000; Nenagh 6,000; Newcastle West 4,000. These are all growing strongly, but some smaller villages are still declining.

The report also estimates that the labour force will grow by 42 to 48 per cent.

It pointed out that there are currently nearly 1,400 hectares of land zoned for residential development in the region.

“This could accommodate over 30,000 new homes, which means that 90 per cent of the estimated increase in housing demand could be accommodated on existing residentially zoned land,” Mr Buchanan said.

He said it was the consultants view that this land should be used for residential development. “It should as far as possible be focused within transport corridors. Good residential layouts with access for through bus services which can link the new settlements to shops, workplaces, schools, etc are in our view more important than exceptionally high densities in making the new developments sustainable.”

The study found that the road network in the region has many weaknesses.

“There are significant delays through town centres, especially Limerick. Roads are of poor quality, particularly away from the primary route network, and poor connections to some areas such as Foynes. There is poor maintenance of the roads and high accident rate. Many of these problems will tend to get worse as traffic increases,” Mr Buchanan said.

He pointed out that a programme of road scheme for the area has already been assembled by the NRA, the three county councils, Limerick Corporation and their consultants.

“This study, PLUTS, has therefore concentrated on looking beyond the construction of these committed and planned schemes, and has identified nearly 30 links in the road network where more capacity is needed by 2026. Within Limerick itself, further road widening or construction has to be considered in the light of the needs of the environment, pedestrians, cyclists, busses and freight deliveries. The opportunity exists to exploit the capacity released on the city centre network as a result of the Southern Ring Road and fourth river crossing,” he commented.

He expressed concern that this released capacity could easily be eroded by the proposed crossing tolls, which could divert traffic back into the city centre. “We suggest that a city centre traffic management scheme could prevent this from occurring and also prevent toll revenue being eroded.”

City manager Brendan Keating said a final presentation on the consultation findings in the study would be made in February.

“The findings to date stem from detailed study and a consultation process. The study has been on display for some time and has attracted considerable interest. Views expressed by a number of people have been incorporated in the report,” he said.

Knew I saw it mentioned somewhere before – got a 3/4 page mention in the current city development plan – google searches yielded various bits of it. Here’s a link to one part –

http://www.limerickcdb.ie/images/strategy.pdf

As for news on the Shannon rail link, the original article came from here –
http://www.railnews.co.uk/displaynews.asp?ID=892

There was another article, which seems to have disappeared off the interweb for now. I think it was put out by Beauxwalk Properties, who were responsible for redeveloping Shannon town centre – It gave fairly detailed info on how the link could be brought about; including proposals for stations at Park (canal)/ Corbally, Longpavement/ City North, Cratloe, Sixmilebridge, Shannon (2/3 stops), Clarecastle and Ennis – as far as I remember.

http://www.westontrack.com/news36.htm
West=On=Track – News
Firm would invest euro16m in airport rail link
The Irish Times (9th October 2003)
by Gordon Deegan

Plans to provide a commuter railway railway to Shannon airport yesterday secured a major breakthrough when a private company Beaux Walk Properties, said it was prepared to invest eurol6 million in the project. A report published yesterday by the Shannon Railway Company on the project concludes that the euro60 million commuter rail link between Shannon, Limerick and Ennis “is a viable commercial entity” through a public-private partnership.

The proposal envisages a regular seven-day service between the three centres using the existing rail line between Limerick and Ennis together with a new six-mile spur to be constructed to Shannon Town Centre, Shannon Free Zone and Shannon Airport. The proposed schedule anticipates a train service to and from Shannon Airport every 20 minutes to Limerick and Ennis. The Shannon Railway Company is a consortium of investors led by Beaux Walk Properties, which is currently constructing a 150 million redevelopment of Shannon Town Centre,

Yesterday , its managing director, Mr Barry Boland, said the proposed commuter rail link envisaged attracting 20 per cent of the estimated 230,000 weekly commuter car trips to use the new services. The report says there is a potential demand for 2.3 million passengers a year for the service in an area which has the highest single concentration of industrial employment outside the Dublin area. “Our assessment is that the service will generate sufficient profits within five years to render the project a viable commercial enterprise without any ongoing Government subvention,” he said.

Mr. Boland said Shannon Rail Company was prepared to invest 37 million, provided the Government gives a tax break equivalent to the balance of euro23.5million. The funding proposal involves the euro23.5 million from the Government, investors’ equity of euro26.5 million and bank borrowings of euro10 million. The Government is also being asked to provide euro4 million per annum for the first five years of the project.

The report says the costs of constructing the new six-mile spur to Shannon off the existing Limerick-Ennis line, along with upgrading parts of the current line, will come to euro41.8 million. Clare County Council in its recently adopted South-East Clare Economic Plan has prohibited development taking place within the corridor of the proposed rail link. Mr Boland said: “The proposed link is consistent with Government regional policy and will have a major impact on the development potential for the Limerick-Shannon gateway.” To move the project forward, Mr. Boland said the promoters were prepared to undertake detailed technical, financial and market research study at a cost of euro500,000. The company had sent a copy of the report to the Minister for Transport, Mr Brennan, and had asked the Department of Transport for a euro200,000 grant towards the cost of an agreed feasibility study.

Thanks for that Shane, as I’m sure you are aware West on Track have been ecplised by the McCann Report of May 2005 which found that the Western Rail Corridor is completely unviable North of Tuam. This is I imagine due in no small part to the absolute shambles that passes for planning in Mayo and the low population base in Southern Sligo.

I totally support the Shannon Rail Link but despite its low cost and a significant financial contribution being on offer from Beaux Walk Properties nothing seems to be happening.

The only issue I take with the rail news article is that it only mentions Limerick & Ennis as being the beneficiaries of a Shannon Rail link, it would also be of Significant benefit to Galway which unlike Limerick has no real airport.

The Park Canal project sounds fairly interesting. It’s a really nice walk out to UL from town especially where the canal rejoins the Shannon at Rhebogue? it’s complete wilderness, with not a buildng in sight – one of a number of great but overlooked wildlife corridors into the city along with the marshes in Corbally and around Barringtons Pier/ Northern Approach Road, so fingers crossed a decent job gets done. The last part of the plan doesn’t exactly inspire confidence though,”Phase 2 of the project cannot be fully defined at this time as it would involve substantial inputs from the private sector as development schemes are brought forward. ” especially given the fact that new housing estates can already be seen along the Dublin Road.

The info on the pedestrianisation project came from a leaflet got from The Limerick co-ordination office on O’Connell St. about a year ago. No start date was mentioned, but it seems the opening of the Shannon Tunnel in 2009, is the most likely date.

It does seem odd that a priavate company is waiting to finance this project for something like 5% the cost of a disjoined luas system and still little action from the powers that be!

Forgive me if I indulge in a little rant but perhaps the visionaries at the department of the environment and local government will remove the word planning from any communication with the outside world and replace it with reactionary. I think the pace of change in ireland at the moment is such that, many government reports etc (despite their best intentions or other wise) become outdated/ overlooked before they’re published. Would it not be a better idea that perhaps given the problems getting infrastructure built in this country that some respectable member of the community up west could rally the locals and build the railway themselves from Derry to Limerick. I’d hazard a guess and say that Knock airport didn’t go hundreds of millions over budget!

Here’s an article i came accross in a recent edition of the LIMERICK POSTal

In a surprise announcement from an unnamed minister at an unnamed department it is expected that the 50000 new houses envisaged for the mid west over the next 15 years are to be built in a great big ribbon from Limerick to Galway either side of a new super dooper fandidlytastic highway (dual carriageway in non-local politician parlance) complete with a great new suburban style neighbourhood centre somewhere between Ennis and Gort.
This idea, it was stated, will satisfy everyones perceived need for a big back yard and parking for at least 3 suv’s while at the same time creating a great new mega Atlantic metroplis which could market itself as having the biggest widest bestest main St ( 64m) – eh sorry trendy European /continental style boulevard in the world – ever!!!
The move was broadly welcomed by those people usually prone to welcoming things with other big and important delirious ministers stating that massive gynormous tax breaks would be made available to those wishing to build holiday homes instead of anything really useful/annoying like those houses that need proper infrastructure and other things that smack of effort. Such a move would justify the recent sidelining of Shannon Development’s plans to bring 20000 new jobs and 4 billion in investment to the region, and sure aren’t those feckers in Limerick full of ideas well above their station anyway – the feckers, it was further stated.
Adding further insight to the government’s plans, one defensive official said that he hoped the dublin meedya wouldn’t get hold of the news ’cause they’d only try and use it to link it to violence and make smart comments at Limerick’s expence, he also elaborated by saying that he supported government policy in the region and that anyone who didn’t could feck off up to Dublin/Portlaoise and sure what was the point of having all that overpriced sprawl up there if no one was going to live in it.
Public reaction to the news has so far been apathetic and largely mute as everyone is still stuck in traffic at the bleedin Parkway roundabout. However one shady looking character, spotted near Sarsfield shopping centre offered the following, ” come here i want ya sham” adding “goway outta dat or I’ll stab ya, ya posh la”

Just found this in the limerick post today, finally some explanation on that big hole at punches cross, wishfull thinking that its going to be completed by next july id say!

Thursday 28 August 2005

Rocky start but building proceeds

By Marie Hobbins
AN ASSURANCE that work will be completed by July of next year on a hotel and mixed development at Punch’s Cross has come from Tobin Engineers of Galway, the company contracted to remove rock from underneath the site.

When the site was closed off and work ceased some weeks ago, no specific reason for the discontinuation of work was given by businessman, Brendan Dunne, who first submitted a planning application for a hotel and apartments on the site in 2001.

Until this week when work resumed, speculation mounted with a range of various reasons being stated for the stoppage

Dispelling a claim that excessive rock underneath the site had shot up the costs, Eamon McPartland of Tobin Engineers, Galway confirmed City Council senior planner, Kieran Reeves’ earlier assurance that the rock breaking process had been finished well ahead of schedule.

Speaking to the Limerick Post on Wednesday Mr McPartland said: “There were two separate contracts, undertaken by Cordell Construction. The first – the enabling contract was for the groundwork and even though we encountered a lot of rock it proved easier to remove then expected with the result that we were able to claw back three weeks from the expected completion date but it was too early for the main contract to proceed and then we had two weeks’ holidays to be taken – this accounted for the site going quiet.”

Mr McPartland said that another reason for delay in proceeding to the next phase of development was due to “the formation of a consortium over a period of time”.

Despite some modifications now being sought, Mr Reeves told the Limerick Post that “the core of the planning application is not being changed – the basic structure is not changing dramatically”.

Asked why there are now requests for further fire escapes, Mr Reeves said this is to comply with requirements for a Fire Safety Certificate and he said that the planning department is working its way through conditions attached to the planning permission regarding finishing materials.

He further stated that alterations sought for the hotel “are linked to a housing development planned for Hassetts Field behind the Punch’s Cross development”.

City councillor for the area, Jim Long, said the local residents are glad to see that work has recommenced on the development.

“It will be good for the area but I have arranged to meet with the planning officials to investigate more fully the planned development of 40 houses in Hassett’s Field,” he said

Also i see that construction has has started on the hotel and retail complex on the childers road beside the limerick enterprise park, it’ll contain around 100 rooms,bar, restaurant and leisure centre, theres also plans for a neighbourhood retail centre on the site. About a year ago there was talk of an urban regeneration masterplan being drawn up for this area, involving a town centre development for the roxboro area along with retail, commercial and residential developments, havent heard anything about it since, does anyone have any info on it, its definately an area that could to with a bit of a facelift, especially as its basically the southern gateway to the city!

Just something on riverpoint(due for completion next month) and also some hints as to further development in the city centre!

Sunday business post

Sky’s the limit for Limerick developer

21 August 2005
The new Riverpoint tower in Limerick, the highest building in the city and the third tallest in the country, does not mark the height of local property developer Michael Daly’s ambition.

The accountant, corporate financier and property developer is also planning a €100 million, 100-bedroom four-star hotel and 95 apartments on the site of the old Savoy cinema in the city centre, and a retirement village at the Castletroy Park Hotel outside the city, not far from the University of Limerick.

The Riverpoint building on the river Shannon, which will eventually house 150 apartments, offices, shops, a restaurant, bar, gym and car park, is costing €75 million to develop. Once it is complete, 1,000 people are expected to live and work in the building.

It is one of the largest developments in Limerick and will change the face of the city, finally giving an attractive shape and character to an area that has been one of the oldest eyesores in the locality.

Daly has set up a financial structure behind the property whereby he retains a majority 51 per cent shareholding and splits the remaining shares among seven others. There are different structures in his other developments, but he holds a majority shareholding in each of them.

Anglo Irish Bank is backing not only the Riverpoint venture but all of Daly’s major property projects. Daly and his investors put up about €15 million of their own money in Riverpoint.

The building is close to completion. During the final phase, the building next door, St Munchin’s House, will be demolished and a nine-storey building above a courtyard will be built with 100 apartments and a creche.

The Riverpoint tower itself has a bar and restaurant on the ground and first floors, and 13 storeys of offices above that. Daly said two floors had been taken by a Limerick firm of solicitors, while an accountancy firm had occupied another two floors. Several construction companies have also taken occupancy.

The 15-storey building, at 200 feet, is smaller only than Cork County Hall and Liberty Hall in Dublin. It was designed by architects Burke Kennedy Doyle and built by Sisk, the construction giant that partners Daly on his property projects.

“We are delighted Riverpoint has been received so well,” said Daly. “It is a terrific landmark building for the city. We’re getting on with business now – once we finish one job, we move on to the next – but it is nice to leave something behind that everyone is comfortable with.”

Daly said his property development business, Fordmount Properties, was behind €375 million worth of projects, making it one of the largest property companies in the midwest. The firm’s shareholders are Daly, Dermot O’Donovan, Thomas Dalton, Adrian Frawley and Michael Sherry.

Daly said the views from Limerick’s tallest building and its 220-space car park were the building’s two major draws for its tenants. “The view of the river is just wonderful,” he said. “You have views everywhere: you can see the Clare hills in the distance. That is what is actually selling it – everyone who has come down to look at it has gone ‘wow’. The view is awesome.”

Daly said that while there are plenty of car parks in the city, there are very few large car parks for businesses and apartment owners. “The underground car parking has been a huge benefit,” he said.

“Parking has not been readily available in the city. There would be other car parks of that size in the city, but not attached to office and residential.”

Daly was a former corporate finance partner at Grant Thornton, but left to set up his own boutique house, First Capital Corporate Finance, and concentrate on his property projects.

Despite his level of activity in the property market, he still pays close attention to his corporate finance business, which primarily sets up property funding schemes.

The firm has raised finance for a shopping centre and nursing home in Co Galway, a retail park in Co Longford and a hotel in Co Leitrim.

Fordmount’s planned hotel on the Savoy cinema site will be operated by another hotel owned by Daly and his fellow investors, the Castletroy Park Hotel off the Dublin Road outside Limerick.

Daly hopes the new hotel will be open by next summer and surrounding shops by the end of the year.

Daly and his investors bought the hotel last year from US billionaire philanthropist Chuck Feeney for about €25 million. Fordmount’s retirement village will be located next to the hotel.

According to Daly, Fordmount is assessing other sites in Limerick city centre that he believes could be ripe for development. He said other property developers have focused on building in the suburbs, but he believed the real value was still in city centre locations.

“There is a lot of retail parks being built around the city, but I would like to see the city centre being restored from a retail and commercial perspective,” he said. “Any town needs a vibrant town centre. I hope we haven’t run the risk of maybe going too much on the outskirts. That is one of the reasons why we are looking at other sites in the city centre.”

Daly has taken an office in Limerick’s highest building, but denied that he was considering taking space on the top floor of the Riverpoint.

“I am going into the eleventh floor [of the offices] – there are two floors above me. I didn’t want to be seen as the king of the castle,” he said, laughing.

“I was tempted, alright, but I quickly dispelled the temptation.”

i must say tuborg, those articles are very interesting. they are a good read. well done. i find daly’s remarks about him not wanting to be seen as king of the castle funny, lol. i am excited about the riverpoint building. it’s a welcome addition i think. i like it. 🙂

The riverpoint is one of the better buildings done at scale and is well related to its riverside setting due to its simplicity.

I see politics plays a large part in what the third city of Ireland is.
I see it as Dublin, Belfast (cringes), Cork and Derry.
However, Limerick is a gorgous place, and has the same problem as Derry with pretty distasteful media coverage.

IRFU is expected to pay E3m for 15 homes next to Thomond Park

By Mike Dwane and Deirdre McGrath

The IRFU want to buy 15 homes adjoining Thomond Park for over E3m

Ballynanty residents have been approached by the IRFU to sell their homes on Knockalisheen Road to facilitate the redevelopment of Thomond Park.

One resident told the LImerick Chronicle that no deal has been done yet. “There are 12 family homes and three council houses here. They have to try and buy it all on block. These are all big houses. However, where are we to go with E200,000. That wont buy you a garden yard in LImerick” said the resident.

The hallowed rugby ground is to be doubled in capacity to over 26,000 and could host more international games if all goes to plan.

Residents in Ballynanty say they were first approached by members of the IRFU about four weeks ago and negotiations are on-going.

Each resident has been offered E200,000 plus legal fees for their home. The developers say the fee is non-negotiable.

Residents believe rugby authorities want to knock the existing ballynanty end and re-align the pitch by turning it 90 degrees.

A new stand would be built where the 15 homes on Knockalisheen Road now stand. The row of houses, built around 50 years ago, is known locally as the, “Banana Block” after its curved shape.

All but three of the homes are owned privately after they were bought under the local authority tenent purchase scheme. Some residents have inherited them from their parents.

One man who spoke to the Limerick Chronicle said he would not budge unless he was offered the right price for his home.

Asked if it was true if a E200,00 offer plus E40,000 disturbance money had been offered, he said he couldn’t comment at this stage but that, “negotiations are on-going.”

At the time of going to press, the IRFU had not made themselves available for comment.

So quite a few big smileys there, Dave123. It will be class alright -100% good craic extra free. There’s always a great atmosphere in the city when there’s a big match on, be it rugby or GAA. Haven’t been to the Gaelic Grounds since it was finished, but I gather it has a capacity of c.55,000, which surely makes it close to second in size after Croke Park.

As for media coverage, don’t see the point in lazy throwaway remarks which seem all to common in a lot of national newspapers – it reflects more on the character of the journalist than the city and I can’t imagine it does their sales figures any good as I certainly am not going to pay to be insulted, regardless of any good points these papers might have.

I think Limerick has to be the most liveable city in Ireland at present – despite the problems it shares in common with many other places. And with all the proposals such as the Shannon rail link, tunnell, new shops in the city centre along with pedestrianisation, convention centre and Thomond Park among others, it will only get better.
🙂

Also, read somewhere recently that a new greyhound stadium is to be built somewhere on the Ennis Road, near the Two Mile Inn – I think. Definately a cause for gratuitous use of smiley faces. 🙂

Work gets underway on 16 million euro college building

SHORTLY before the college commences another academic year, One of Limerick’s landmark buildings, Mary Immaculate College on the South Circular Road, is to undergo a major refurbishment that will produce a state-of-the-art all-purpose building on the college campus.

The college was granted 16 million euro last year from the Department of Education to build a multi-purpose teaching and sports facility. The allocation came as a welcome relief to the college administrators and teaching staff who had described the building as “bursting at the seams”.

Work on the new facility commenced this week and is scheduled to be completed in 15 months.

The contract for the construction was won by P Elliott and Co Ltd who carried out the regeneration work on Dublin’s Fatima Mansions.

The construction work will cause some disruption in the area and college president, Dr Peadar Cremin, in a letter written to local residents says: “As you are aware the works involve the creation of two new permanent entrances off Courtbrack Avenue.

“In order to minimise disruption to those living in the vicinity of the college, P Elliott and Co Ltd will use these entrances for access and egress from the site for all construction traffic.

“Likewise, in relation to car parking, P Elliott and Co Ltd will provide adequate car parking on site for all construction personnel, ensuring that no construction related car parking affects Courtbrack Avenue or Summerville Avenue.”

The college has commissioned a detailed tree survey which has identified and numbered all tees on the campus, including those that will need to be removed to facilitate the works or for safety reasons.

The developers have stressed that every effort will be made to minimise the removal of trees and that all trees retained will be protected for the duration of the construction work.

Good news for mary I, often at the butt of jokes over its lack of proper social and recreational facilities, definately much needed investment,its really been the poor relation of limericks 3 third level colleges, also construction of the new kemmy business school building at ul should start this college year aswell, i saw the plans for it just as we were leaving for the summer, glass seems to be the predominent feature here, makes a bit of a change from all the redbrick!, as far as i know its going to contain 1 large lecture theatre and a number of smaller ones along with (more) offices and i.t. rooms!

Here’s a link to Murray O’Laoire’s plans for Mary I, It does give the impression of a bit of a glorified secondary school as it is, although there’s a fairly colourful facade on one of the more recent additions (c. 1970’s I think ) sort of a mosaic of blue and red fibreglass panels.- Seems to be a lot of big plans for U.L. at the moment, but couldn’t get anything on the Kemmy Business School, The Glucksmann library in U.L. might be of some interest, I’d say Dominic Perrault might have been in fashion the year this was designed:

http://www.murrayolaoire.com/education/projects/maryi_masterplan/index.html

http://www.murrayolaoire.com/education/projects/ul_library/index.html

People have been asking for pics of the city so I thought I’d post a few of my own random shots:

Riverpoint Building near the Shannon Bridge:
http://static.flickr.com/23/31487177_786fe73fc4_b.jpg

Detail of Riverpoint Building:
http://static.flickr.com/22/31487590_a1e5567cb7_b.jpg

Looking from Clarion ‘deck’ towards Steamboat Quay. Riverpoint building in background plus that hideous (soon to be demolished) office block:
http://static.flickr.com/21/31486735_f0efc6ff31_b.jpg

Clarion Hotel:
http://static.flickr.com/22/31554306_95c5ee6666_b.jpg

View back down the river from Barrington’s Pier, showing much of the new development along the Shannon:
http://static.flickr.com/22/31490490_5031ff9e22_b.jpg

For fans of destruction out there, a pic of the Savoy being torn down:
http://static.flickr.com/21/32901300_478c2ca8c6_b.jpg

View from Shannon Bridge towards Sarsfield Bridge, with Castle in the background:
http://static.flickr.com/22/31487904_9974a109e7_b.jpg

View of George’s Quay across Abbey River:
http://static.flickr.com/21/31159062_564224d208_o.jpg

Dragon boat racing near King John’s Castle:
http://static.flickr.com/21/31159132_a194fd7029_o.jpg

Hope they prove illuminating. Any questions or queries, please fire away.

Great to hear something being done with William St – It wasn’t included in the pedestrianisation plan, but O’Connell St/Ellen St. was – are these just tempoary measures till the whole project gets underway? – Anyway any work on William St. can only improve the place. Fair dues to the city council too, for all the hanging baskets they put around town, it brightens the place up no end.

The building on Sarsfield St is on the left hand side as you’re heading out of town over the bridge – think Esprit, Top Shop, Bay Trading Co. and a few others have shops there along with a number of blue painted apartments overhead wouldn’t mind living there myself – that’s what the picture in the Irish Times said yesterday anyway, so guess it’ll be a while yet before anything happens on Liddy St. I’ll juist boycott Roches Stores til they do something bout it – it’s an embarressment to the city.

http://www.nma.ie/articles/2002_01_IA.pdf

Don’t understand the low rating either – if there’s something wrong with it, low raters might suggest improvements. Nice photos by the way.

What’s that yolk on Bedford Row? Aaaagh it’s a fairly offensive looking thing – does the neo gothic(k) part exist already ! Don’t recognise it.- anymore info?
The limestone building in the other photo looks like part of what used to the Shannon Arms hotel. It was later a pub called Feathery Burkes (bout 10 years ago – an illustrious drinking establishment if ever there was one!! ) and I think it’s now offices or apartments. It’s on the same side of Henry St. as the Redemptorists and not too far from there either.
Does the aerial view mean that that land is for sale? – it looks like it’s the playing fields of St. Clements, a fairly sizeable area anyway, is it zoned for residential development?

I guess people think that I am obsessed with skyscrapers. Just to let you know I like Riverpoint too. It looks really good. A 15ish storey building that looks good seems fine to me. Having said that, I do not like what is attached to it. It would look way better standing alone. LOL.

river point is the job…great stuff. i went to ul in ’93 and remember the city being quite depressed and depressing so its great to see this town quietly getting on with the various projects like this and the redevelopment of the savoy site.
lots of potential in limerick for serious buildings and with the new bypass, the tunnel under the shannon and the proposed/hopefully soon to happen limerick to shannon airport rail link, i think limerick is only going to go from strength to strength!!!
that stretch from the riverpoint tower to the clarion is probably going to see a lot more stuff pushing up the height issue and i hope the city keeps going well!!!

@dave123 wrote:

Not a great pic , but got it from http://www.rooneyauctioneers.com
the development is on Bedford row
consist if 4 storey over bacement , ant comments?

more pics later 🙂

The development on Bedford Row shown is where the “Central Studio” cinema is/was. The cinema has long since closed its doors as a permanent theatre but it was being used by the Belltable for their film club.

The familiar facade of the “Central” is a 20th Century addition to a much older Wesleyan Methodist Chapel. If you go down there now and look at the side of the building you can see that the “Central” facade extends only about 15 feet in from the street. The actual theatre part of the cinema was, in fact, the modified interior of the chapel. You can see the bricked up windows of the chapel in the alley beside the “Central” and, of course, you can see the ‘gothic’ detail on the roof area if you stand further up Bedford Row and look at it from an angle. You can also get a good look at the roof from the top floor of the new Dunne’s Stores.

As far as I understand it the plan is to demolish the “Central Studio” facade to reveal (once again) the facade of the original chapel. Could work out quite nicely if done well.

@dave123 wrote:

thanks for the pics Hailtothechimp! a great asset to the thread!
The view from the river looking towards the Clarion and riverpoint in view is awesome!
I have a query, on the cranes behind the riverpoint , near a city centre location, just wondering would u know what dev. is going up there?

Cheers Dave.

The cranes behing Riverpoint are probably either associated with the whole “Royal George” / Shannon St / Bank of Scotland re-development, or possibly connected to the re-development of the site where the Savoy used to stand. Will have to go down and check!

A few more shots. Not too much new development to be seen but interesting panoramas all the same. Taken fron the top floor of the Clarion Hotel:

http://static.flickr.com/23/31561765_c0d4af1969_b.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/21/31562360_df2a4cc70e_b.jpg

Don’t know if this has been mentioned before but can anyone tell me if there are plans to knock the lovely old stone buildings where Quin’s Pub and the garden centre are in Ellen St? I’ve heard a runour of this as I know there are plans to build (shudder) ‘Munster’s Largest Shopping Centre’ very close to that site.

Think those buildings would be a big loss myself. Any update on this?

Its almost heartbreaking to see those photos from years gone by, O Connell st was much more impressive back then, it really was a grand street with many fine buildings, i’ve got a book full of pictures like this at home and the lower portion of the street has changed almost beyond recognition since the 1950s, a fair amount of this was down to unfortunate tragedies, both roches and todds were destroyed by fire and cannocks was demolished instead of being restored 😡 of course todds was replaced with what is probably the city’s ugliest building, surely brown thomas take more pride in their appearance than this!

O Connell street from the corner of bedford row where the bank of Ireland now stands

This is a pic of william st with the todds building on the right, quite an imposing building, they dont make em like this anymore!

As for the planning app, ya its the same development, the residential element is being built in 3 phases, not sure if its got permission yet but it definately will as the city council themselves drew up the masterplan with the limerick race company, there is to be a commemorative monument to mark the popes visit and one to mark john traceys world championship win there, in fairness it looks like a well balanced development on paper!, this was also to be the site of the new greyhound stadium but there was problems with the ground conditions, a new state of the art stadium is going ahead at coonagh cross and should be open within 2 years, speaking of coonagh cross more details have been released of the shopping complex planned for the area, looks pretty run of the mill and boring to me! http://www.coonaghcross.com

Seems like every new shopping centre in limerick is claiming to be the biggest, so is the planned development at the back of patrick st, hopefully we’ll hear some concrete details fairly soon, it has the potential to be a really positive development for the city centre but only if its done right, what we dont want is a big soul-less shopping centre, what i would much rather see is a retention of the existing streets, there are many interesting and historical buildings in this quarter of the city and it would be a travesty is they were all destroyed, this area should be rejuvenated using existing buildings and where it is neccessary clear the derelict sites and replace them with new structures,it would be a much more vibrant and atmospheric place if the majority of this area was kept intact!

Some great images there. Any chance of some present day streetscape images that might give a bit of context to all these new developments being discussed? – thanks.

i guess riverpoint is opening soon. i’ll have to pop down to limerick to get a look at it then. information that i saw a couple of wees ago said it will be a september opening. it does look much nicer than the clarion. exciting stuff.

These are some pics of the michael street area of Limerick that is destined for major development over the next couple of years, there is a lot of under utilised space in this part of the city centre so any development that would bring life back to this area would be welcome, however with important buildings such as the granary(below) nearby it will have to be a quality development, well thought out, not dictated by greedy developers and overall has be sustainable and in character with the rest of the area to form a natural extension of the city centre!

This is the rutland street area of the city just off patrick st and o connell street, it is immediately behind these buildings that the development will take place, it was rumoured that 1 or 2 of the buildings that were in need of refurbishment were bought out, (surely not for demolition), this would be a disaster as this is one of the finest georgian terraces in the city and any break in it would destroy the whole fabric of the area

This is the area down towards the hunt museum,the potato market and city hall,its highly unlikely that any of these buildings would be sacrificed, it would be equivelent to murder if they were!

If you look across the river,there is a rather dilapidated 2 storey office block,this is where the new development will meet the abbey river on charlotte quay

BTW dave you can discount that application from the royal george, its was withdrawn after the hotel was sold, aidan brooks bought the site and plans a department store on the ground and first floor with hotel rooms on the top 3 floors with entrance via shannon street beside the newly built retail units in the bank of scotland building!, not sure about the old racecourse, all i know is that construcion has started on a large residential development there, i imagine they’re just re-jigging their application!

Tubourg,

You have postings regarding mixed-use development at the Racecourse on the Dock Road. Seems the retail planning application was withdrawn in Feb. Any idea what is happening out there?

Why so down on Arthurs Quay Park? It’s a great spot, far from perfect mind but one of the more insightful projects of recent times.

The views from it are second to none and the tourist office is one of the most interesting designs to grace the city – its integration into the the design of the park and its distinct iconographic form, being very much of its time and place – are just two of its good points.

It’s preceived isolation stems from the fact that its surroundings are so hideous – Arthurs Quay is an abomination, a completely wasted opportunity, just like its cousin – Merchants Quay in Cork. It turns its back on the street which is a real shame, because the width of the footpaths facing the park could easily have accomodated outdoor cafe’s, restaurants, kiosks etc and livened the place up no end. The state of Sarsfield Shopping Centre and the arse end of Roches Stores hardly warrent mention and the idea that the railings around the park are the cause of its troubles doesn’t really stand up if you consider the fact that Stephens Green and Peoples Park are both surrounded by railings like almost every other park – anywhere.

The park is under utilised because there is no reason for any body to venture into that part of town on account of the buildings in the area. If that changes the park will begin to fulfill its potential ex. a new theatre on the site of Sarsfield S.C..

In the mean time I think it would be a great idea if the city council along with local restaurants and perhaps someone like the Belltable Film Club could organise outdoor films during the summer in the park. When I lived in new York was involved with an organisation which was trying to ensure the responsible development of a new riverside park in Brooklyn, they held a film series each summer at the venue and it was very succesful in raising the profile of the project – I think also that play(s) were staged in the People’s Park this year. Arthurs Quay could benefit greatly from similar ideas – it’s certainly a suitable venue.

As for the new shopping centre around Patrick St – definately agree with the idea that outdoor streets shoud be retained, its difficult to imagine how it could happen any other way with all the existing buildings which will have to be integrated into it’s design and if you compare the precedents in the city already – Arthurs Quay and Cruises St. (whatever about the style of tis design), it’s no contest surely. I think the office building mentioned as a potential entrance to the complex is the Cahill may Roberts building ( sorry – no picture) . It’s the lilac coloured, 2 storey thing beside the Granary?

@ShaneP wrote:

In the mean time I think it would be a great idea if the city council along with local restaurants and perhaps someone like the Belltable Film Club could organise outdoor films during the summer in the park.

Great idea. Speaking of films, does anyone know what in tarnation is happening with the Theatre Royal? It is over 2 years since a group, under the auspices of The Belltable, won a 750, 000 Euro grant from the Cultural Cinema Consortium (arts council). As I understood it at the time, the plan was to use this money to transform the Theatre Royal into a permanent Art House theatre. Nothing at all seems to have happened since then.

This is from the Arts Council website:

“In July 2003, under Phase One of the Consortium’s capital investment scheme, it awarded capital investment funding valued at €750,000 each also to Kino in Cork and Belltable’s Filmhouse in Limerick for development of art house cinema.” link

That page also announces funding for Solas in Galway, and the Light House in Dublin.

So what’s happening with the Limerick money? I know the Belltable Film Club was being run out of the old Central Studio but has now retreated to the Belltable itself as that building is soon to be partially demolished (see above). Is the money simply being used to run the film club itself? Are there now no plans to transform the Theatre Royal?

Anyone have any idea what’s happening?

I think there’s been a lot of talk in recent years about relocating the Belltable which probably includes the film club, but seeing as no action has taken place on that issue, it follows that nothing has happened with the film club, which is a pity as I think Kino in Cork has gotten off the ground and the IFI in Dublin is a very successful facility, and a fairly impressive building too – lets hope the funding will still be available when they get their act together!

Be jaysus – great pictures – it’s fairly dramatic looking alright – are the shop signs on the website images aspirational rather than reality, cause i’m sure i spotted a sign for Niketown there somewhere. Niketown….. in Limerick….and not in Cork… or Dublin for that matter. Is Coonagh Cross the new Heaven or something like? And H&M in the Crescent – think Limerick’s your only man for all your tracksuit and trendy cardigan needs. (apparently that’s what’s cool for school this season)

The name of the building in the picture attached is: Sarsfield House, I think it was built in the late 70’s and is the main office of the Revenue Commisioners. I know its not exactly stunning and I wouldn’t be shedding too many tears if it disappeared, but I do actually fing it somehow lilkeable, on account of its scale. It’s fairly imposing?

“Relation to Arthurs quay park
I agree with you Shane, about the views and landmark site, but I’d prefer some sort of a look out building or theatre/ opera house to signify the importance of the river etc.

What do you think of that idea?”

Is the idea of highlighting the importance of the river really be best served by destroying one of the city’s few large public spaces and hiding the river behind a large building where only a select group of users are able to enjoy it? I think it would be best to utilise the potential of the surrounding sites in raising the profile of both the park and the river, ex. refurbishment of Arthur’s Quay S.C and perhaps the development of a new Belltable Arts centre at Sarsfield S.C , which could have foyers overlooking both ammenities and be linked in it’s over all design to its surroundings by means of a semi enclosed public space from the park, thru’ the centre and up to the level of Sarsfied Bridge.

Cant make up my mind about the coonagh cross centre, im not really a big fan of shopping centres like these, theres always something very bland and monotonous about them, they all seem to look the same and when you’re inside in one you could almost be in any shopping centre anywhere, they all look the same to me, in fairness to coonagh cross at least they’ve included a public park in the plans, similar to the park planned for the parkway valley centre only smaller!

There has been very little news recently about planning decisions for these 2 shopping centres, the application for the parkway valley was submitted last christmas and not a lot has been heard about it since, the project is located in both limerick city and limerick county councils jurisdictions so obviously a good deal of consultation has to take place, this is a big call for both of them as such a large development in a sensitive area needs to be studied in serious detail, i personally dont think the present road infastructure on that side of town can take the extra pressure, i mean you’re going to have a large shopping centre and office and business park in the one site, thats gonna mean a lot of extra cars, im not sure if the proposed centre is going to have access to the new castletroy link roads?

Id be concerned that a lot of the new retailers looking to set up in limerick are mostly only interested in suburban shopping centres, for me you cant beat the city centre for shopping, it should be THE place for core retailing, the problem is rents and parking costs are too high because the city boundary is too small, limerick county council is cleaning up with rates from the likes of the crescent, raheen industrial estate and the national technological park!, also there is a lack of vacant, suitably sized premises on o connell street especially! If right was right the likes of supermacs and burgerking should be booted out of the street to make way for proper retailers and theres a lot more examples other than these!

Theres still no word on the anchor for the royal george site, a lot of rumours still say its marks & spencer, this would be a big boost especially as a number of retailers feel they have no option but to move to te suburbs as their existing units just arent big enough, hopefully hmv and river island wont close their city stores when they open outlets in the crescent!

Its a real pity about o connell street though, it isnt a patch on the street it was in times past, commercially or architecturally 🙁

Personally, I don’t find the whole shopping centre experience that interesting either, they’re either mobbed or dead, with no in between and shops tend to be at the bland end of the spectrum. It’s easy enough to criticise all things suburban as it is at the moment and the idea that Limerick and most other places in Ireland will have little to differentiate themselves from New Jersey or Arizona (the way things are going) is fairly depressing. Hopefully things can change soon.

It is good, in some respects to see larger international chainstores like H&M etc coming to the mid west, however If the experience of Dundrum S.C. is anything to go by we’re in for a big dissappointment. Most shops there, fail drastically in comparison to the major chains flagship stores in places like London and New York – kinda get the feeling they send all the left over rubbish stock to Ireland and sell it at inflated prices to celtic tiger cubs.

It would be best if a more proactive approach was taken by the city council and others in identifying potential sites for large retailers to locate in a scattered manner throughout the city centre, rather than being bunched together in large inaccessible forgettable warehouses. Such a strategy would mean that these big chains could get people into the city who would then be inclined to support smaller indigineous businesses nearby.

Here’s a link to the retail strategy for the mid west –

http://www.limerickcity.ie/services/planning/documents/Final_Regional_Strategy_February_03.pdf

Great bed time reading!! I think the over all gist is that the Limerick area can support another 80000 sq. m. of retail space by 2011. The main facts are on page c.29/30 and 79. Have fun!

Where did the red line on your map for the new centre in town come from Dave123? It’s a huge area and seems to indicate that the Watergate Flats will have to be done away with along with many other newish developments?

As for the living over the shop scheme – haven’t heard too much about it but here’s a copy of some promo material i got (along with the pedestrianisation stuff) from the LImerick Co-ordination Office) a while back – John’s Square was included too.

@ShaneP wrote:

Personally, I don’t find the whole shopping centre experience that interesting either, they’re either mobbed or dead, with no in between and shops tend to be at the bland end of the spectrum. It’s easy enough to criticise all things suburban as it is at the moment and the idea that Limerick and most other places in Ireland will have little to differentiate themselves from New Jersey or Arizona (the way things are going) is fairly depressing. Hopefully things can change soon.

You’ve seen one shopping centre, you’ve seen a mall…….

Any thoughts yourself?

I would like to see people discuss why this was the correct or incorrect decision in each case; it is a pretty interesting article raising a very valid concern considering the dispersed development pattern that afflicts the county.

Well, as I said before, i wouldn’t give much credit to most government plans/ publications , however well intentioned or otherwise and the idle chit chat quoted above does nothing to change that view. The whole exercise in listing certain areas and excluding others is shown, in the article, to be nothing more than the product of a few hours tracing over random o.s. maps with a red marker, to fill a few pages of the development plan.
to give an example – Crecora – a rural area 8 miles from Limerick City – there’s a nice notional red line drawn around what constitutes the village. There has been very few if any new houses built within that area in recent years. However if one looks to an area 2/3 km off that map it is possible to see that in one particular 500m stretch of road applications being processed/ granted for 5/6 one off houses in the last year. Seemingly Crecora is located in a planning pressure area, whatever that means, perhaps it is supposed to be more difficult to build in the area?

http://www.limerickcoco.ie/planning/docs/cdp2005/cdpPlans2005/DEV23_24.pdf

A map showing the location of some 3000 one off houses in County LImerick between 2001 and 2003 –
http://www.limerickcoco.ie/planning/docs/cdp2005/cdpPlans2005/Map%203_1%20One%20Off%20Grants.pdf

Again, any thoughts?

A CITY councillor is sticking to his conviction that the People’s Park is being interfered with in a way that is reducing its landscaped parkland.

Cllr Jim Long told the Limerick Post that following his protestation against the sudden appearance last week of a new pathway in the park at the rear of new complex which is being built there, and his claim that “a cloud of silence” hung over the issue in City Hall, Limerick City Council director of services, Kieran Lehane has now agreed to an investigative meeting on site.

The councillor, who sparked off a heated controversy that gathered momentum following his discovery some months ago that Limerick City Council had sold off 0.44 acres of parkland for 1.5million euro to facilitate the building of a mixed development, is now incensed that there has been a further intrusion into the public park which was bequeathed to the people of Limerick by the Earl of Limerick in 1876.

City Hall confirmed that it had received a number of calls from members of the public, voicing their concern that yet more of the park has been eroded.

However, City Council is emphatic that the construction of a ramp will allow Council workers access to a new depot located in the basement of the multi-storey apartment development.

City Hall states that the ramp or new pathway was part of the planning development and is required to provide access to the park’s maintenance depot. The council stresses that there is no intention of providing a facility for vehicles to drive through the park.

Unconvinced, Cllr Long said that having walked around a cordoned off area in the park, there is, in his opinion, ample room for a truck to drive through.

“It is my belief that what we’re looking at here is a slip road,” he said.

“I’ll be meeting with officials in the park – I want to show them where my concerns are and that not one more piece of the People’s Park is interfered with for building developments

A pretty worrying precedent is being set here, was never much of a fan of this development in the first place, there was never any mention of this access point in the original application and the city council assured people that no part of the part other than the specified site itself would be lost, turns out most people were right to be suspicious!, limerick city council dont seem to have any problem in destroying the citys oldest and probably its best public park while doing absolutely nothing to at least improve or perhaps even dispose of the failure that is arthurs quay park, there is a pretty large area there if you include the dunnes site and the vacant shops to the rear of roches, and i cant understand why no action is being taken, there is surely some legislation to free up prime development sites, this is probably one of the last remaining prime sites by the riverfront and what we dont want here is another boring, bland apartment block, if ever this site became available, i think an international competition should be held and let planners and architects(the people who should know best) come up with ideas on how best to utilise this valuable site, i wouldnt like to see the job the city council would make out of it!

@ShaneP wrote:

A map showing the location of some 3000 one off houses in County LImerick between 2001 and 2003 –
http://www.limerickcoco.ie/planning/docs/cdp2005/cdpPlans2005/Map%203_1%20One%20Off%20Grants.pdf

Again, any thoughts?

Best link I’ve seen in ages

Anyone know of any warehouse or similar developments for rent lease or buy around the Ennis Road area.

I might, but i’m not telling you. Better off trying an estate agents, instead an architecture discussion website.

Cheers Shane,it was just a simple question.
I have read all of this thread since happening across this site and I have been very interested in it.
Its great to see pride in our city again

@ShaneP wrote:

I might, but i’m not telling you. Better off trying an estate agents, instead an architecture discussion website.

What a nasty reply.

I have to say that having also read many contributions to this website that many of the remarks have a very cutting edge to them – the atmosphere seems to be one of putting people down rather than of discussing architecture/planning issues. Sorry, but it is an observation that I have noted to myself since joining and what is worse is that the atmosphere makes others joining the discussions extremely cyncial and aggressive.

I see no evidence of that in most of the threads I read and subscribe to( generally the Dublin ones). In fact they are uniformly informative and polite.There is always vigorous debate on the internet, however.

Well J.P – your second posting seems to indicate that I should explain my hostile reaction to your first post. As you said – it was a simple question and it annoyed me because there are a good number of people who spend quite a bit of time searching out, photo’s, maps, plans etc or composing thoughts and arguements for this thread and i was a bit annoyed to see it being reduced to what appeared to be a property search engine ( whether that was your intention or not) It is good to hear, from your second post, that you find the thread, interesting (regardless of whether you include my contributions in that comment or not) and I kinda suspect that you might have some positive contributions to make yourself, which I and probably others would be very much like to hear.

A good no. of stories in the leader, this week concerning developments in Limerick for anyone who doesn’t have access –

Saturday, September 17th, 2005
Council ‘block’ home-makers

By MARTIN BYRNES

YOUNG home-makers are being blocked from building houses across 90 per cent of County Limerick because they “cannot demonstrate need” and much of the rest is out too because of an absence of sewerage facilities, a Dail candidate has claimed.

Towns and villages have had their development frozen because no new houses can be built, he said.

So now Cllr Niall Collins wants to tear out the part of this year’s County Development Plan (CDP) which requires planning applicants to demonstrate a housing need and has put the cat among the pigeons by tabling a motion to that effect.

“Presently the County Development Plan, which is the primary reference document when planners are adjudicating on planning applications, does not contain a written working definition of housing need,” he told the Limerick Leader. “Therefore the policy is being applied by the planners based on their interpretation only.”

The need requirement is contained in the plan for the area under strong urban influence, the so-called pressure area, and also the area with a strong agricultural base. Taken together, these amount to over 90 per cent of the land area of the county, Cllr Collins has calculated.

“I had serious reservations when the CDP was being adopted in the first instance,” he said. “I felt that we were creating an undefined policy–however I choose to wait and see how this policy was being applied and interpreted. Having now seen and experienced how it has worked out, I know the public are completely frustrated and in the absence of a clear definition and criteria for ‘housing need’ I am seeking its complete deletion from the CDP.

“As a public representative I find myself unable to advise any potential planning applicants whether their circumstances will satisfy the planners that they have a housing need.”

“Should the Council produce a clear definition in time then I will be happy to write this into the CDP–however in the absence of this any reference to ‘need’ should be deleted.”

“On top of all of this, we have residential zoned land across County Limerick, and other development lands surrounding our smaller towns and villages which is red-circled for development, awaiting servicing through the sewage scheme infrastructure.

“Without this infrastructure these lands can not be developed but the proposed sewage schemes are still no nearer today that they were years ago when they were first announced. Locations like Athea, Shanagolden, Dromcollogher, Kilmallock, Adare and Patrickswell to name but a few are at a complete standstill in relation to residential development.”

Chief planner, Jimmy Feane, is aware of Cllr Collins’ motion for the next meeting of the County Council.

“The motion is the property of the elected members of the County Council, and I will not comment on it before they discuss it, but I will be making my opinion known to the members,” he said.

Perhaps the County Council are trying to do something about Bungalow Bliss afterall, T.P.?

A bit more on the new centre in town –

Saturday, September 17th, 2005
City on course to house the biggest shop unit in Munster

By JENNIFER O’CONNOR

A PLANNING application for what has been dubbed “the biggest shopping centre in Munster” is to be made to City Council within a matter of weeks.

The proposed development will take in the Michael Street / Rutland Street area of the city and will include the buy-out of a number of premises in the area.

According to a source, business owners have already agreed to sell their properties subject to planning permission being granted.

“It is targeted as the biggest shopping centre in Munster. It will cover about 300,000 square feet and the planning application is to go through in a matter of weeks,” he said.

Up to 1,000 new jobs will be created should the development receive the go-ahead,” the source said.

Meanwhile, the Limerick Leader has learned that Shannon Development are close to completing a deal worth over €1.5m which will see them dispose of their property in Michael Street.

The company have owned the premises since 1980 and according to a spokesperson, the sale will “contribute to the regeneration of the area”.

“Shannon Development are in the process of disposing of their property at Michael Street, Limerick. The company cannot comment further on the sale at this time. The property was placed on the open market and advertised through an agent.

“The disposal of this property by Shannon Development provides an investment opportunity in the property market which can contribute to the regeneration of this inner city area,” the spokesperson said.

Shannon Development, who also own a range of industrial estates in Limerick, including the Raheen Industrial Estate and the National Technology Park in Castletroy, have said that as far as they were concerned the tenants were just undergoing a change of landlord.

They have dismissed rumours that tenants are to receive settlements in the region of €250,000 each once the sale goes through.

The property was put on the open market earlier this year through Colliers Jackson-Stops International Property Consultants in Dublin and received huge interest from perspective developers because of its city centre location.

The site covers approximately 0.33 acres and was advertised as producing €33,300 per annum, with the potential for more, in income for Shannon Development.

Saturday, September 17th, 2005
Council faces gridlock over proposals for city bus lanes

By MIKE DWANE

COUNCILLORS look set to scrap proposed bus and cycle lanes on the Ballinacurra Road, O’Connell Avenue, Mulgrave Street / Roche’s Street and Bengal Terrace following a stormy meeting at City Hall this Wednesday.

Around 30 residents from the affected neighbourhoods crowded into the public gallery where the contentious issue of green routes was debated by the transport and infrastructure strategic policy committee.

Householders were irate over the recent erection of site notices on Mulgrave Street and beyond the Ballinacurra Creek outlining that Limerick City Council intended to seek funding for bus and cycle lanes there.

This was despite the fact that councillors thought they had shelved these planned routes before the summer recess and agreed that the Council should proceed only with its plans for green routes on Ennis Road and Childers’ Road.

“I’ve said it here time and again that the main Ballinacurra Road, O’Connell Avenue, Mulgrave Street and Roches Street are not suitable for bus and cycle lanes,” Cllr Pat Kennedy said.

He put forward that the committee would reject any notion of bus lanes at the above locations and said he would be urging the full Council to formally rule them out at its next meeting.

“We, the elected members, are the people who set policy here and I hope people in senior management here get that into their heads,” Cllr Kennedy said.

Fine Gael’s Cllr Maria Byrne said that “prior to the summer recess, we had deleted all reference to these routes so I was alarmed to receive a phonecall from a member of the public regarding this sign that had been erected on Mulgrave Street.”

She was further dismayed to learn that a sign regarding disputed city bus and cycle lanes had been put up on the far side of Ballinacurra Creek outside the city boundary.

Cllr Byrne said she would be seconding Cllr Kennedy’s motion for the deletion of routes at Ballinacurra, O’Connell Avenue, Mulgrave and Roche’s Street.

Her party colleague, Cllr Ger Fahy, said he was “appalled” to get calls from constituents on a site notice concerning a green route for Bengal Terrace, of which, he said, there had been previously been no mention.

“Residents assumed that because the sign on Mulgrave Street was nowhere near them, it had nothing to do with Bengal Terrace. There was no public consultation and they are absolutely furious with the approach of Limerick City Council,” said Cllr Fahy, adding that 100 affected homeowners in the area were not prepared to build driveways at their own expense to take their cars off the road.

Committee chairman Cllr Joe Leddin admitted he was similarly “annoyed” when he got the same phonecalls from residents in his ward.

“Putting site notices outside the boundaries of the city, high up on poles or behind hedges, is simply unacceptable,” Cllr Leddin said.

But director of services John Breen stressed that no routes for the areas concerned had been agreed and that they would all have to go through the planning process.

“The decision rests with the elected members and the public through Part 8 of the planning process. We have received public submissions which we will be responding to but it’s quite clear there’s strong opposition,” Mr Breen said.

Very interesting thread.

Can anyone confirm that the Sarsfield Bar, Mid-Western Business Institute block and the old Qunns bar are not being knocked to facilitate the new shopping centre?

The more talk there is about this development the more it concerns me, nobody has come out and spoken about the precise area that is to be redeveloped, there seems to be a wall of silence surrounding the whole project and this dosent fill me with any kind of confidence,the city council have a habit of keeping people in the dark when they want to push things through, not one public representative has questioned what buildings are going to be lost, its pretty disgraceful to be honest!, i find inconceivable that the city council, civic trust or the public in general would stand by and let another historic area of the city be destroyed!. We’ve already made a great job of o connell street, contrast the pictures of the street from the 50s with what the street looks like now and you’ll see just how many attractive buildings have been lost,the street is in a fairly pathetic state now but it just shows how a wrong attitude cant scar a city so much, we could have a beautiful o connell street now if the city fathers of the past werent so narrowminded and shortsighted, the last thing we need now is another horrible plastic and glass structure right in the city centre!. I really thought we had learned our lesson by now, theres even been rumours that the granary could be sacrificed, hopefully its a load of bullshit, if that was the case they may as well knock king johns castle and st johns cathedral while they’re at it! 😡

Just got this on the city coucil website, no mention of rutland street and patrick street here:

Limerick’s Conservation Area is located within the Georgian Area of the city, also known as Newtown Pery. This area includes the blocks between Pery Square and Henry Street and from Barrington Street to Mallow Street.

Most of the original street furniture and external features of the buildings still exist in Newtown Pery, although the original character of the interior has all too often been compromised.

Here are some examples of the features left in their original condition:

Remnants of old lamps remained in the form of lamp posts may be seen at the Pery Square / Hartstonge Street corner, outside the former house of Lord Limerick on Henry Street.
Examples of coal cellar covers set in the pavements can be seen on Pery Square and Hartstonge Street.
Gargoyles decorated with grotesque figures may be seen on the Leamy School building on Hartstonge Street.
Some fire plates can be seen above the balconies of numbers 2 and 3 Pery Square.
Ward boundary plates may be seen at O’Connell Street / Lower Mallow Street corner. These plates were erected around the mid 19th century to identify the constituencies for local government elections. They were made of cast iron by the Harrison Lee Foundry.
Mews were at that time an integral part of the townhouse. Used for stabling horses, storing carriages, they were located at the rear of the terrace in a laneway. Most of them still exist but they have often been converted into workshops, garages. The most distinguishing features of mews were the arched entrances and the hay loft above. Examples of Georgian mews may be seen on Hartstonge Street, at the back of the Tontine buildings, and on Catherine Street.
An interesting thing about Georgian buildings is the ironwork, found on balconies (mainly on the first floor) and railings, which still survive in good condition. Examples of these features can be seen on the buildings built after 1800. Excellent Victorian and Georgian style railings and gates may be seen on O’Connell Street. An example of a protective handrail can be seen on Hartstonge Street. While the balconies of the buildings on Pery Square are rather plain, those in other streets are more pleasingly decorative and they certainly help to soften the rigid lines of the terraces. This is the case on O’Connell Street, The Crescent and Mallow Street.
The Neo-Classical influence on railings is also evident in the decorative Grecian urns, which are placed at the intervals along the railings. These are such an ubiquitous feature of Limerick’s streets that they often go unnoticed.
Examples of bootscrappers may be seen on Barrington Street. A classical example of a bootscrapper in the shape of a Unicorn can be seen on Pery Square.
The main focus of attention in a terrace is the door, which is always set to one side of the house. The typical Georgian doorway has a semi-circular, decorative fanlight over the entrance and Classical style wooden or stone columns framing the door. The Limerick doorways are wide, with columns merging into the brickwork, as can be seen on O’Connell Street and The Crescent.

Was there ever any further news about whether it was illegal for the council to sell the piece of land for the development at People’s Park in the first place, or has it been established once and for all that it was above board? Has anybody got photo’s of the yolk now? It will probably be a while before i can get to that part of town with a camera

As for the new shopping centre down town, it seems a bit early to be talking about any hidden agendas in city hall to help push the project through. The only people who have mentioned the project so far are politicians with little else to be keeping them in the news during their long summer holidays and property correspondants whose job it is to find out what developments might be coming our way. Such a big development has probably involved a lot of pre-planning meetings, which is what is giving rise to all the speculation about what buildings will be knocked/sold etc. Although given the many nasty precedents set by large developer driven schemes dumped on the city in recent years, there is certainly cause for scepticism, it’s only fair that the project be given a fair hearing once it’s contents are published. I’ll certainly be keeping a close eye on the planning notices in the leader and elsewhere in the next few weeks .

For any one unfamiliar with the planning process – current legislation gives rise to the following process in dealing with a planning application
Notices must be placed on site and in specified newspapers by the applicant 2 weeks prior to the application being lodged with the local authority.
Once the application has been submitted a decision must be made within 5 weeks during which time observations and objections can be made by interested parties, however it may not be possible to do this at the earlier stages of the process as drawings are being checked by the planning registrar to ensure the application has included all the necessary information and that it is correct.
It is also necessary for a project of this scale in such a location to be accompanined by an environmental impact statement and it would seem likely that it will allso include traffic and building conservation studies among other items.
The council may also ask the applicant for extra time to make a decision.
If the council approves the application an appeal can be made to an Bord Pleanala within a specified timeframe provided the objector has has previously tried objecting to the local authority.

So keep an eye out for planning notices. I can’t wait to see what it looks like. I gather it’s a Belfast developer who’s responsible for the scheme, but am not aware of any previous projects from them. Don’t know that Belfast’s set the world alight with any interesting shopping centre architecture in recent years though?

Also saw that an appllication is to be lodged for the extension to the business school in U.L. – can’t find any images, any one else come accross any? And Virgin Megastores are recruiting for staff locally – no mention of the shop location, can’t help but think it’ll be in the revamped George on O’Connell St, please God don’t let it be the Crescent S.C.

Regarding the conservation area Tuborg. True, it’s mostly around the Newtown Pery area, but the outline on the Development plan map (that I have anyway) shows a little bit extending along Patrick St./Rutland St. onto Charlotte Quay, and back down Michael St. which seems to cover some of the area being talked about for the new S.C. As ever, guess we’ll have to wait and see what’s to become of it all.

Jimmy Woulfe in yesterday’s Examiner has a piece about that funny little Toll House on Thomond Bridge: http://www.irishexaminer.com/pport/web/ireland/Full_Story/did-sgmV1S5vU72-6sgHuTLc4nqWo2.asp
It seems typical of the City Council. They get handed restored places or buildings on a plate by John Hunt, the Limerick Civic Trust or another body and they can’t seem to maintain them.
Here’s the Toll House: http://www.irish-architecture.com/buildings_ireland/limerick/limerick/tollbooth.html

I found the bit in the article about referring the issue to Limerick’s Roads Department quite humourous. It appears that the roads are to blame for vandalising the building. Damn roads tearing themselves up like that and throwing themselves at the building! What is to be done?

@ShaneP wrote:

Also saw that an appllication is to be lodged for the extension to the business school in U.L. – can’t find any images, any one else come accross any? .

From what I can remember from my blissful years in UL, is that the business school building will be an extension of the current Schuman Building – same design. Could be wrong about this so don’t quote me, but there is a patch of land to one side of the Schuman which I think will be used for it. I have not seen any hard evidence to support this – just hearsay on the corridors of UL.

The more talk there is about this development the more it concerns me,

You are not the only one. Most aspects of this development sound like bad news.

It will probably involve the destruction of a large number of historic buildings. This probably wont be a problem for the “out with the old, in with the new” brigade but if you compare O’Connell St/Patrick St now to what it was like even 50 years ago, it would be easy to make the case that every development which involved demolishing period buildings in the last 50 years in Limerick has been disastrous for the quality of the built environment in the city. At one time O’Connell Street was described as the most hansom main street in Ireland (Finerty – Ireland in Pictures), now it’s a mess. If anything the more recent “developments” have been even worse. Building Cruises Street involved demolishing one of the oldest hotels in Ireland and replacing it with a nasty shopping “street” which alread feels cheap and grotty. Arthur’s Quay is a disaster on a number of levels as is the entire Roaches/Penny’s/Burger King block. This development will effectively destroy the last remaining Georgian terrace at that end of the city. That section of town is quite attractive with the Hunt Museum across the road.

I also feel this sort of “monocultural” development is exactly the sort of thing that Limerick DOEST NOT need. In every case in Limerick, when a single company has taken over an entire city block the results have been less than impressive: Arthur’s Quay, The Dunnes centre on Sarsfield Street, Roaches, etc. The more attractive areas in city are not monocultural in this sense. The city centre needs to develop retail but this type of development will not help, in my opinion. What would help would be if a number of larger retail premises were developed at infill sites around the city center. Or why encourage something to be done about the Sarsfield St Dunnes first? This development might bring punters to the centre but the scale of this thing will probably mean that the people it draws in will probably never leave the centre itself – they’ll park in a multistory car park, shop in the centre and maybe have a bite to eat in the food hall before driving home. This does little for the vibrancy of the centre. Of course the council won’t care – all they can see is the rates.

@jimg wrote:

You are not the only one. Most aspects of this development sound like bad news.

It will probably involve the destruction of a large number of historic buildings. This probably wont be a problem for the “out with the old, in with the new” brigade but if you compare O’Connell St/Patrick St now to what it was like even 50 years ago, it would be easy to make the case that every development which involved demolishing period buildings in the last 50 years in Limerick has been disastrous for the quality of the built environment in the city. At one time O’Connell Street was described as the most hansom main street in Ireland (Finerty – Ireland in Pictures), now it’s a mess. If anything the more recent “developments” have been even worse. Building Cruises Street involved demolishing one of the oldest hotels in Ireland and replacing it with a nasty shopping “street” which alread feels cheap and grotty. Arthur’s Quay is a disaster on a number of levels as is the entire Roaches/Penny’s/Burger King block. This development will effectively destroy the last remaining Georgian terrace at that end of the city. That section of town is quite attractive with the Hunt Museum across the road.

I also feel this sort of “monocultural” development is exactly the sort of thing that Limerick DOEST NOT need. In every case in Limerick, when a single company has taken over an entire city block the results have been less than impressive: Arthur’s Quay, The Dunnes centre on Sarsfield Street, Roaches, etc. The more attractive areas in city are not monocultural in this sense. The city centre needs to develop retail but this type of development will not help, in my opinion. What would help would be if a number of larger retail premises were developed at infill sites around the city center. Or why encourage something to be done about the Sarsfield St Dunnes first? This development might bring punters to the centre but the scale of this thing will probably mean that the people it draws in will probably never leave the centre itself – they’ll park in a multistory car park, shop in the centre and maybe have a bite to eat in the food hall before driving home. This does little for the vibrancy of the centre. Of course the council won’t care – all they can see is the rates.

Good points. The council are probably desperate to get people back into the city centre and compete with all the shopping centres / retail parks on the outskirts and they see this as the solution. It’s just another mainifistation of the ludicrous planning of Limerick with 2 authorities competing with each other.

I think Cruises street was grotty day one with its legoland architecture. Wasn’t a bad idea though.

@PDLL wrote:

From what I can remember from my blissful years in UL, is that the business school building will be an extension of the current Schuman Building – same design. Could be wrong about this so don’t quote me, but there is a patch of land to one side of the Schuman which I think will be used for it. I have not seen any hard evidence to support this – just hearsay on the corridors of UL.

I’ve seen the plans posted up in UL. The new Kemmy Business School will be next to the Schuman alright at right angles to it on that piece of empty marshy ground. I’m losing track of all the new buildings going up out there, especially the ones on the other side of the Shannon.

I don’t think the council can rely on the notion that the city centre is dying due to competition from suburban centres anymore. From a personal point of view, town seems to be noticably busier in recent times, most saturday’s now seem comparably as busy as any christmas from a few years ago. There was even a few sightings of the lesser spotted American tourist during the Summer.

If anything is putting the city centre and it’s traders in danger it is dross new developments with a shelf life of less than 15 years ie. things like the Savoy and slum apartment developments. If this hasn’t dawned on planners yet, then the city council should be done away with altogether.

As regards, the new shopping centre, I really don’t see how any one could contemplate raising whole city blocks, especially in that part of town. It would be a planning nightmare for everyone involved given the concentration of businesses, streets and buildings in that compact area. I’d hazard a guess and say that the Cahill May Roberts building might go or else that the centre will be located entirely on the derelict site beside Instore near Ellen St. Who knows, we might end up with something a bit trendy like the Powerscourt centre in Dublin or Galleria Vittorio Emanuelle in Milan!!

What about that development opposit Nancy blakes, Lyric FM has its HQ there. That was supposed to be a big Shopping centre but as far as I know it’s just a bigcar park, correct me if i’m wrong

You’re not wrong. That car park surely must qualify as one of the ugliest buildings in Ireland,

@zachler wrote:

I’m losing track of all the new buildings going up out there, especially the ones on the other side of the Shannon.

Splitting the campus in two like that was not a good idea. The campus lacks any sense of a centre as it is and the atmosphere there in the evenings and on weekends is very much that of an abandoned business park. Spreading the buildings out to the extent that they are is not the way to go – it will fragment the campus even more, dissolve whatever atmosphere that already exists, and make life hell for students and staff going over and back that bridge during the winter months (unless they provide a shuttle bus). I have talked to a number of staff members in UL and they are not convinced that this is the way the university should expand.