well what about the developments popping up in the shannonside ?
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Not necessarily. Obviously the new pedestrianised zone between William Street and Roches Street cant be implemented until after the tunnel is opened in the Summer/Autumn of 2010. But this area (specifically the junction of Bedford Row/Thomas Street) is also to be the location for the proposed “central iconic feature”, so it was always due to come on stream later than the other works.
There was very little stopping them from going ahead with the remainder of the work between Denmark Street and Mallow Street. I know hindsight is a great thing but the O Connell Street and William Street projects really should have been done while the grant money was flowing.
The City Council have given out numerous start-up dates over the last couple of years. Indeed in their Part 8 report on the remodelling plans, they stated that the O Connell Street/William Street improvements would begin in 2008!:confused:
As the citys main thoroughfare, O Connell Street is in an absolutely deplorable state, the pavement (amongst other things) is in a state of acute degeneration and the so called public lighting just isnt good enough at this stage. All in all, it deserves a lot better!
The O’C and William street public realm works are dependant on the Orbital Route as well as the Tunnel, which is designed to reduce traffic flow in the city centre streets. Bedford Row and Thomas Street were not so trafficked so were able to proceed.
I dont think that O’Connell street needs to be closed off anyway, a pedestrian friendly street would be far better. William Street and the City Quays are in the most need of TLC if you ask me, O’Connell street should not go ahead until proper money is available, even if thats 6-10 years.
By the way, does anyone know what material they are using to clad the new boatclub building?
I think brick would have been nice 😮
On another note, anyone know what’s going on at John’s Square. Images would be nice 🙂
And what’s happening on Clancy Strand?:confused:@WelshinLimerick wrote:
The O’C and William street public realm works are dependant on the Orbital Route as well as the Tunnel, which is designed to reduce traffic flow in the city centre streets. Bedford Row and Thomas Street were not so trafficked so were able to proceed.
The tunnel is a vital piece of infrastructure for the entire city and the orbital route is obviously important in terms of efficiently managing traffic flow within the city centre. However I dont buy into the suggestion that the remodelling works cannot procede until those projects are up and running. In the last few years, both O Connell Street in Dublin and Patrick Street in Cork (both heavily trafficed routes) underwent comprehensive remodelling jobs so I fail to see why we cant manage the same!
I dont think that O’Connell street needs to be closed off anyway, a pedestrian friendly street would be far better. William Street and the City Quays are in the most need of TLC if you ask me, O’Connell street should not go ahead until proper money is available, even if thats 6-10 years.
6-10 YEARS!:eek: Ah come off it, could you imagine the state of the place if it was left that long? This remodelling project is already long overdue, it needs to be done asap!
The quayside from Sarsfield Bridge to Shannon Bridge is in poor shape alright, its really shown up by the works that have been completed across the river on O Callaghan Strand especially.
Work was supposed to start last Autumn on this section but with all the cutbacks in funding, Im not sure what the current status is.
On another note, anyone know what’s going on at John’s Square. Images would be nice 🙂
And what’s happening on Clancy Strand?:confused:A boardwalk is being installed on Clancy Strand between the Treaty Stone and Curragour Falls. Posts about this and St John’s Square can be found on page
90@NevilleNeville wrote:
The big issue with the Boat Club decision is the fact that the majority vote made by councillors, with no formal training in architectural conservation, to remove a building from the list of protected structures, demeans the process of deeming builidngs worthy of being recorded as protected structures in the first place. Lets not forget that the building was included in the National Inventory of Architectural Heritage for Limerick City less than two years ago. If it was deemed significant enough to be listed at that point this decision seems all the more ridiculous. I could accept if there was a forum or committee decision by people with a track record in conservation but councillors making these decisions is a mockery of the legislation that was introduced to protect our heritage in the first place.
I certainly would agree with your point that this could set a negative precedent for removing other buildings in the future.
Then again how could a more significant building like “Jackson’s Turret†with some 300 years of heritage not deem to be good enough to be included in the NIAH in the first place, but only after when a planning application threatened its surroundings was it included.
What’s the story with the fine cut-stone quays (Bishop’s and Howley’s)? Are they listed? The City Council plans to roll out a boardwalk on top of them!
One could argue that this makes the NIAH look just as ridiculous and as well undermining its own standing?
The 17 public elected City Councillors have after a two year period of time, voted 15 to 2 in favour of delisting the club house. This democratic process can’t be rubbished just because the Councillors are not qualified Architects but I do hope that they have weighed up all the sides of the pros and cons in the interest of the city. You can’t expect them to be Tax consultants either when it comes to deciding the rates!
@NevilleNeville wrote:
The fact as to buildings being commercial or not is not really the issue but that the other builidngs referred to i.e. Thomond Park and the Concert Hall are public buildings whereas the proposal for this site is primarily offices with the exception of the new boat club. A new public building might make the decision easier to swallow but not another office block.
It was my understanding that the main thrust of this proposal were for . . . .
Proposals for the facility off Sarsfield Bridge are to coincide with Limerick city’s regeneration programme and the ‘riverside city’ development and include a museum, coffee shops, tourist information services, facilities for the theatre and the arts as well as a new pedestrian bridge linking the facility to Harvey’s Quay and up onto the newly pedestrianised Bedford Row. “Our objective is to take advantage of the current riverside city programme to improve our facilities, while at the same time securing the future of Limerick Boat Club on Sarsfield Bridge and thereby promoting the sport of rowing in Limerick for generations to come,” said Dermot Moloney, president, Limerick Boat Club
Mr Daly added that he believes this development should “regenerate Limerick Boat Club” and believes it is a “joint venture”, rather than a commercially driven project.
He said his “dream is to have a restaurant on the top floor and have people say that when they come to Limerick they must go the restaurant on the top floor.” A coffee shop could also be located towards the front of the building, where people could overlook the River Shannon, but Mr Daly said he does not “want to dictate the use as it may fly in the face of the planning process.” Source Limerick Leader
@NevilleNeville wrote:
Finally I wouldn’t hold out too much hope for a quality contemporary builidng both due to the submission to the council thus far and also looking at the developer’s previous track record for producing what might be solid commercial architecture but hardly inspiring artworks. The local authority had the option of insisting on an architectural competition for the site to replace the heritage it deemed fit to be removed but rejected it. Seems like Skibereen has more progressive thinking than Limerick these days!
Sure, people would easily agree on what solid commercial architecture is, but to find a common census on inspiring artworks depends on the eye of the beholder.
Architect Sean McCann said their design takes its inspiration from “ship hulls, lightweight fabric sails, rowing oars and robust sea walls.”
Evaluating the contents of the NIAH?
If I dare ask, what were the merits for this modest clubhouse structure (c.100 year old) to make its way into NIAH in the first place? Why was the boat storage shed not included as well?
If we take a look at all the components of the bridge that are listed in the NIAH i.e. Sarsfield Bridge, Shannon Boat Club, 1916 Memorial, Limerick Boat Club, Floating Dock (Wellesley Pier and Harvey’s Quay), Lock (Honan’s Quay) (click also additional images) and then assign to each structure a merit note lets say from 1 to 10. Then my subjective order of merit would shape out like this . . . .
Note 10: Sarsfield Bridge
Note 9: Floating dock (Wellesley Pier / Harvey’s Quay)
Note 9: Lock (Honan’s Quay)
Note 7: Shannon Boat Club House
Note 6: Memorial (1916 Rising)
Note 3: Limerick Boat Club HouseTherefore in my opinion, my lowly merit note for the “Limerick Boat Club House†would be enough to justify the City Councils right to re-consider its importance in the interest of the city when comparing the benefits of the Fordmount’s proposal as against the heritage loss of the original clubhouse.
The real big issue for me is the potential damage this proposal can inflict on the character of the bridge / floating dock but not the loss of this clubhouse building!
Value wise, I think the city is being offered a good deal in that we are trading-in a “boat†here and getting a “ship†in return!
Are we bold enough to risk change with this contemporary design with its proposed daily use to enhance Limerick’s finest structure?
[align=center:2woimwy6]Or[/align:2woimwy6]
Are we reckless enough to change forever with this contemporary design with its proposed daily use to debase Limerick’s finest structure?
Personally this is a hard one to call?
Just after noticing that RTE are currently screening a series about prominent Irish streets called “On the Street Where You Live.”
Tonights programme (RTÉ One, 7.30pm) features O Connell Street and is said to include previously unseen footage of the Todds fire amongst other things.
Could be interesting!
@NevilleNeville wrote:
The big issue with the Boat Club decision is the fact that the majority vote made by councillors, with no formal training in architectural conservation, to remove a building from the list of protected structures, demeans the process of deeming builidngs worthy of being recorded as protected structures in the first place. Lets not forget that the building was included in the National Inventory of Architectural Heritage for Limerick City less than two years ago. If it was deemed significant enough to be listed at that point this decision seems all the more ridiculous. I could accept if there was a forum or committee decision by people with a track record in conservation but councillors making these decisions is a mockery of the legislation that was introduced to protect our heritage in the first place.
The fact as to buildings being commercial or not is not really the issue but that the other builidngs referred to i.e. Thomond Park and the Concert Hall are public buildings whereas the proposal for this site is primarily offices with the exception of the new boat club. A new public building might make the decision easier to swallow but not another office block.
Finally I wouldn’t hold out too much hope for a quality contemporary builidng both due to the submission to the council thus far and also looking at the developer’s previous track record for producing what might be solid commercial architecture but hardly inspiring artworks. The local authority had the option of insisting on an architectural competition for the site to replace the heritage it deemed fit to be removed but rejected it. Seems like Skibereen has more progressive thinking than Limerick these days!
Well Mr.Neville , I checked the scheme out and there is in fairness 1 room at the Bridge Level that has been named as Civic Use. It would probably fit about 40-50 people at a squeeze! As for the Museum etc…..?????http://www.limerick.ie/eplan/FileRefDetails.aspx?file_number=08163&LASiteID=0
Im also very amused that the LCC website states that ‘PLANNER : NONE’ made the decision.Sources tell me that Ms.Campbell under Mr.Reeves guidance made this decision ….also .I will personally pay for any of the objectors appeal costs….you can call me on 061-496347
@CologneMike wrote:
It was my understanding that the main thrust of this proposal were for . . . .
Proposals for the facility off Sarsfield Bridge are to coincide with Limerick city’s regeneration programme and the ‘riverside city’ development and include a museum, coffee shops, tourist information services, facilities for the theatre and the arts as well as a new pedestrian bridge linking the facility to Harvey’s Quay and up onto the newly pedestrianised Bedford Row. “Our objective is to take advantage of the current riverside city programme to improve our facilities, while at the same time securing the future of Limerick Boat Club on Sarsfield Bridge and thereby promoting the sport of rowing in Limerick for generations to come,” said Dermot Moloney, president, Limerick Boat Club
Mr Daly added that he believes this development should “regenerate Limerick Boat Club” and believes it is a “joint venture”, rather than a commercially driven project.
He said his “dream is to have a restaurant on the top floor and have people say that when they come to Limerick they must go the restaurant on the top floor.” A coffee shop could also be located towards the front of the building, where people could overlook the River Shannon, but Mr Daly said he does not “want to dictate the use as it may fly in the face of the planning process.” Source Limerick Leader
Sure, people would easily agree on what solid commercial architecture is, but to find a common census on inspiring artworks depends on the eye of the beholder.
Architect Sean McCann said their design takes its inspiration from “ship hulls, lightweight fabric sails, rowing oars and robust sea walls.”
Evaluating the contents of the NIAH?
If I dare ask, what were the merits for this modest clubhouse structure (c.100 year old) to make its way into NIAH in the first place? Why was the boat storage shed not included as well?
If we take a look at all the components of the bridge that are listed in the NIAH i.e. Sarsfield Bridge, Shannon Boat Club, 1916 Memorial, Limerick Boat Club, Floating Dock (Wellesley Pier and Harvey’s Quay), Lock (Honan’s Quay) (click also additional images) and then assign to each structure a merit note lets say from 1 to 10. Then my subjective order of merit would shape out like this . . . .
Note 10: Sarsfield Bridge
Note 9: Floating dock (Wellesley Pier / Harvey’s Quay)
Note 9: Lock (Honan’s Quay)
Note 7: Shannon Boat Club House
Note 6: Memorial (1916 Rising)
Note 3: Limerick Boat Club HouseTherefore in my opinion, my lowly merit note for the “Limerick Boat Club House†would be enough to justify the City Councils right to re-consider its importance in the interest of the city when comparing the benefits of the Fordmount’s proposal as against the heritage loss of the original clubhouse.
The real big issue for me is the potential damage this proposal can inflict on the character of the bridge / floating dock but not the loss of this clubhouse building!
Value wise, I think the city is being offered a good deal in that we are trading-in a “boat†here and getting a “ship†in return!
Are we bold enough to risk change with this contemporary design with its proposed daily use to enhance Limerick’s finest structure?
[align=center:9fz9pe6l]Or[/align:9fz9pe6l]
Are we reckless enough to change forever with this contemporary design with its proposed daily use to debase Limerick’s finest structure?
Personally this is a hard one to call?
You’re a dreamer Mike if you take the developer at his word.
We’re effectively building a block with no windows facing either Poor Man’s Kilkee or Sarsfield bridge. Don’t be fooled by words, look at the plans and see for yourself how crap they are.
Limerick Boat Club have no rowers btw, they couldn’t even arrange a social, masters crew this year, ffs.
@Dreamstate wrote:
Well Mr.Neville , I checked the scheme out and there is in fairness 1 room at the Bridge Level that has been named as Civic Use. It would probably fit about 40-50 people at a squeeze! As for the Museum etc…..?????http://www.limerick.ie/eplan/FileRefDetails.aspx?file_number=08163&LASiteID=0
Im also very amused that the LCC website states that ‘PLANNER : NONE’ made the decision.Sources tell me that Ms.Campbell under Mr.Reeves guidance made this decision ….also .I will personally pay for any of the objectors appeal costs….you can call me on 061-496347
I’m lodging an appeal anyway Dreamstate, and I’m glad to spend my own money on it but if you want to give me a hand drafting it, send me a pm.
@justnotbothered wrote:
You’re a dreamer Mike if you take the developer at his word.
As you know yourself putting thoughts to paper, looking for material, scanning through old posts involves a little bit of time and effort. Therefore the more surprised I find your remark which leaves me with the impression that you don’t seem to bother to read peoples posts properly!
The bottom line for me was to bring a little bit balance to the “Limerick Boat Club†topic.
@justnotbothered wrote:
We’re effectively building a block with no windows facing either Poor Man’s Kilkee or Sarsfield bridge.
Since you have access to these plans for the last year or so, I would say your eye sight is letting you down. If you study both images together, one can get a three dimensional perspective of the Poor Mans Kilkee side of the building and it reveals a lot of glass to me.
@justnotbothered wrote:
Don’t be fooled by words, look at the plans and see for yourself how crap they are.
To say that the plans are crap is farcical. The Ennis Road side needs some improvement and the pier location maybe controversial, but these plans are never crap!
Below are before and after visualisations
- Bedford Road
- Sarsfield Street
- Honan’s Quay
- Ennis Road
- O’Callaghan’s Strand
@CologneMike wrote:
The bottom line for me was to bring a little bit balance to the “Limerick Boat Club” topic.
To say that the plans are crap is farcical. The Ennis Road side needs some improvement and the pier location maybe controversial, but these plans are never crap!
You aren’t bringing balance, you’re cheerleading for an ugly building in a sensitive site.
The plans are absolute rubbish, I’m old enough to remember the many promises which came with Cruises street, Arthurs Quay Shopping centre and Steamboat quay to be as easily impressed by some lego inspired rubbish flung up on the river. It’s so utterly out of character with it’s surrounds that I struggle to see how you can see any merit in it.
The reason the you might have felt there wasn’t any balance to this topic is because when 9 out of 10 people can see a proposal is crap, it’s always going to bring about an unbalanced discussion. If we all rounded up against Steamboat Quay would you suddenly feel a burning desire to praise it? Or if we all felt Todds was looking a bit shabby, would you suddenly see careful, exotic nuances in it’s design which we have somehow missed?
Again, I’m surprised you stake any part of your reputation on this site by defending and cheerleading this project.
I’m still not quite sure about it, I would guess that looking at it from down the river, from Shannon Bridge, that it would look quite impressive,with the glass front, but most people won’t really be seeing it from there, it will be as they traverse sarsfield bridge. From either direction on Sarsfield bridge it doesn’t really impress as the sides of the building are very off putting. I have one question about it though, that I hope someone can answer, will the access ramp from poormans kilkee, be able to be raised, I’m sure it must, but I haven’t seen it said anywhere.
So it’s still 7 out of 10, and Colognemike great work with the photo’s, they really are a great way to get a feel for the building!!Buildings at locations like this (the Boat Club) have to be either, very low key (like the existing structures), or genuinely outstanding.
I think the proposed building is quite good, but I don’t think it’s outstanding.
Are there not too many competing design ideas going on? the sloping glazed feature at one end, the old fashioned, modern movement, strip window bit (which is nautical in inspiration and I quite like) and the sloping facade panels bolted onto one side!
If there was some hierarchy in the use of these different design themes, maybe it would work better, but each or these elements is of almost equal scale and, apparently, equal importance. It looks unconvincing to me, like a car assembled using bits of a Hummer, bits of a Edsel, and an airport control tower.
I think that Nevillex2 made a very valid point earlier in saying that, given the ‘protected structure’ status of the existing buildings, the Council should have insisted on an architectural competition for any development that involved their demolition. That would have removed a huge part of the uncertainty about the architectural quality of the proposed replacement, given that the councillors decision to de-list is presumably tantamount to a grant of planning permission in this case.
I take on board CologneMike’s assertion that there’s a bigger picture here about injecting some energy and can-do into the regeneration of the city, but this is a big gamble for Limerick and one that hinges almost completely on the architecture.
Lets hope the guys in Bord Pleanála will still be on top of their game when this lands on their desk.
@Tuborg wrote:
Just after noticing that RTE are currently screening a series about prominent Irish streets called “On the Street Where You Live.”
Tonights programme (RTÉ One, 7.30pm) features O Connell Street and is said to include previously unseen footage of the Todds fire amongst other things.
Could be interesting!
Joe Malone: Joe is a regular of The White House Pub for 50 years or so, although now he just sticks to coffee. He fought in the famous Todds fire of 1959, but there has been tough times and he left Limerick in the 1980s as it was ‘dead’. Joe returned from London 14 years later to find the place had become far too material, so he has his regrets!
I would have loved to have seen Joe Malone’s contribution.
How did the programme fare out?
Damn, could not access it because of some stupid copyright reasons! 😡
Can anybody upload it to youtube?
I hate these mock-up renders, with their cheerful sky and carefully-shadowed development in pristine condition. It’s completely divorced from reality, where you have to put up with the thing under a grey sky, with half the building in shadow (and casting shadow), and the effects of rain/damp/pollution on the white building panels. Decent proper buildings look respectable in all conditions, even if not perhaps as flashy on a mock-up. justnotbothered is right about it being out of character.
I can understand how some people might find the concept to have some appeal – there is a nice dramatic element to the front of the building (i.e. the part facing down the Shannon) and perhaps it is possible to have that kind of development on the boat club site (certainly one can find examples in other countries) without detracting from the bridge.
However, I do not understand anyone trusting in the execution of the design, or indeed how a lot of the building would look in-situ for real. Without giving up aspirations for our region and country to improve – the track record is not good. Perhaps a comparison with Arthur’s Quay or Cruises Street isn’t fair, but I would certainly expect it to perhaps be more Clarion than Riverpoint in quality (the latter is acceptable, particularly in its location, but by no means some incredible feat of design – the former is still acceptable, but just a bit cheap-n-nasty looking with the panelling and design).
I certainly think the site is too sensitive for people to be cheerleading wildly for the development, or councillors to be so swift in removing protected status from relatively inoffensive existing buildings.
@justnotbothered wrote:
The plans are absolute rubbish, I’m old enough to remember the many promises which came with Cruises street, Arthurs Quay Shopping centre and Steamboat quay to be as easily impressed by some lego inspired rubbish flung up on the river. It’s so utterly out of character with it’s surrounds that I struggle to see how you can see any merit in it.
I think essentially that is the point. I wouldnt go as far as to say that the plans are rubbish because there are elements of this design that have some merit, namely the curved glass frontage. I dont have an issue with the loss of the existing buildings either, because in fairness they are extremely modest structures, with very little architectural significance.
Ultimately it is Sarsfield Bridge which stands to be the big loser here, the more I look at the plans, all I really see is this proposed structure basically giving the two fingers to the bridge. It just dosent pay it enough respect, the design of the bridge facing elevation isnt strong enough, it just looks like its cocking its ugly arse at it!
You really do get a sense of deja vu here. How many times have we seen proposals like this being championed as some kind of a massive leap forward for the city?
Admittedly Im not old enough to remember the development of Arthurs Quay or Cruises Street so I can only go on what I’ve read and what I’ve seen. The decision to allow the demolition of Cruises Hotel in particular was highly contentious and a huge gamble. Subsequently, the novelty of Cruises Street wore off pretty quickly and most people would agree that the city is now worse off for that decision.
I know its difficult to directly compare these two situations but there are definitely similarities all the same. We cant keep making the same mistakes over and over again and I think recent history would tell us to be very wary of this current proposal!
you’d swear that land in Limerick was €100m an acre! – there’s plenty of space in Limerick for (oh dear!) iconic structures without plonking one into the poor old Shannon. What about the nearby Dunnes site on Sarsfield St and that creepy park in Arthur’s quay:)
I know how sad it is to be replying to myself, but the though occurred to me that that park in Arthur’s quay was pushed through by the council with the same zeal as this sub Liebeskindian steamship.
And just look how that project,which was deemed necessary for Limerick turned out.
Do they have any collective memory?
Why not just leave well enough alone – let the apartment dwellers continue to sunbathe on poor man’s Kilkee.
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